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Joe_caithness



Joined: 30/07/06
Posts: 262
anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate?
      #651191 - 28/08/08 06:36 PM
hmmm...

this is a ponder as much as a point, but the amount of snobbery against people just showing an interest in a formal way about something we (should atleast if were buying SOS!) love.

why is it that whenever music technology education is mentioned people are ready to start the witch hunt, or atleast post a snide comment?

OK I realise that it is NOT the way to start a business, does NOT mean anyone will give you a job

but it does mean that people are inspired enough by our area to learn it full time (or part time if that suits them) and that is a good thing in my eyes.

I speak as a 21 year old aspiring engineer, who is currently using his skills in therapeautic education, who went to Confetti in Nottingham, and although didn't learn everything, learned a damn slight more than if I "just got some work experience"

I understand there is NOTHING as good as just doing it. But the ones who just do it, and also learned the science of studio equipment and techniques, are gonna have a damn slight more advantage over the 5956849568495674568746 people who bought a 4 track, recorded one band, then left it in the shed, or hassled some studios into letting them make tea but never got showed how upwards expansion can be used as a subtle alternative to RMS compression on a mix bus.


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The Red Bladder



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Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #651202 - 28/08/08 07:18 PM
The only reason I get on my soapbox over some types of education, is because too many kids are being told that there is a possible career out there for them in recording studios.

The likes of SAE and other 'schools' have become remarkably successful, selling an unrealistic dream at inflated prices.

They are cheating young people and denying them a future career at the same time and that is despicable IMO.

They (and some accredited universities!) continue to do this with other subjects, such as TV and similar fashionable media fields, selling a complete pipe-dream that you can become a journalist, DVD tech, cameraman, 3D CGI tech, etc., etc., by just attending a few short courses and paying vast amounts of money.

I certainly do not blame the young for being naive - that is all part of the gig of being young! But I do expect parents, career teachers and employees of accredited colleges to be wise to the facts and not to lie to the young.


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narcoman
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Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #651208 - 28/08/08 07:33 PM
Me and Blads vary in our opinions on many things - but in this one important area we are united. Along with many others here.

Joe - the reason we all seem so against it is because of the money grabbing. It costs a lot, you learn FAR more DOING it (and yes - i know all about Confetti, - my brother went there (a waste of time!) and I know the team that set it up very well). For one thing - the knowledge from courses such as those mentioned is WOEFULLY inadequate in a real world (but rare) studio situation. I have a couple of assistants on freelance basis here - they need to able to problem solve electrical issues practically on a daily basis. Not to mention IT stuff - thankfully less since we went 100% MAC a month ago!!

It is grossly unfair to take advantage of young peoples naivety - yes, sorry to be blunt - but young people are easy to lead up the garden path (so are some older folk!). If we tell you you are talented and you have a great future if you just put £20K into your education - you believe us. Personally I think as professionals and older types we have a responsibility to balance the set up. There are hundreds of courses yay-saying all giving great vibes about how great the course is, the amazing facilities and how you can learn to be the best. What they forget to mention is there are - NO JOBS. This matters. Education is NOT for fun. At 20 years old you (quite rightly - i did) want to have a laugh and pursue something you love.

What you don't realise at that age is that wasting your time at 18-25 is a HUGE mistake. You set yourself down a path. Doing a music tech course is a huge, nay, MASSIVE waste of time. I am currently lobbying a couple of governmental types to limit the number of places on courses such as this. There needs to be limits. Currently there are 1000's of "graduates" every year in the UK alone. They're all being taught stuff you could learn from reading a Cubase manual - for big money. Its a scam. There is no other way to put it.

I've seen - first hand- what passes as "mic' technique" in the course you mention. It is NOT something you can learn in a classroom. You need mentoring. Added to that - we just do not need he number of "engineer types" we have at the moment. Not now and not for a long time. These numbers need capping.

Trying to re-dress the "balance" when the balance is already tipped heavily in the favour of the music tech money spinning colleges is definitely something that doesn't need doing. Look at the bigger picture before defending the indefensible.

200 and something - the number of CVs and/or work requests I've had this year.
600+ : the number of CDs I've had from acts wanting placing on media product.

Doesn't this tell you something? You should see what Abbey Road gets!!


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dmills



Joined: 25/08/06
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Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #651219 - 28/08/08 07:59 PM
Just to add to this, there is nothing inherently wrong with offering a music technology (or technological music) course, as long as it is not sold on an unrealistic premise.

The problem is that rather then offer these short courses as part of a continuing education curriculum (Which IMHO would be legitimate), they are offered as a route into an industry.

I also find the (from what I have seen) general lack of academic rigour troubling as it tends to mean that extrapolating to other jobs works poorly at best, because in most cases the underlying theory is not sufficiently emphasised. There are exceptions, I am talking about the 'trade schools' here, not the serious degrees.

The rather alarming emphasis on shiny kit and high end software is also a little worrying as IMHO for any given 90 percent of the industry whatever shiny you learned is totally irrelevant. Very few people make their money with an SSL J these days, and they are mostly the guys fixing the ones at the recording schools.... By and large the same thing goes for any particular software tool or workflow, learn the principles and a wide variety of practise, not just protools.

The reality is that even in my game (Theatre sound, among other things), I get a steady stream of CVs and work experience requests, what I am looking for is demonstrated interest in the field, attention to detail (Your computer has a spell checker, use it on the application letter), engineering know how (can you solder, can you hack the math) and can you play an instrument at any grade(a good indication of musical chops). Having done a recording course is not on my list of desirables, having done a pile of audio work in your own time is (And for the cost of that course you can buy a recording chain far better then anything the beetles used and some books and a whole pile of media, record bands, record nature, record room tone, record your kids, your parents, your grandparents, mix live, mix theatre, remix, mix classical, mix film, there are loads of opportunities to play for no money, take them)!

You will likely learn far more, and build a better CV then one that just says attended such and such recording school.

Regards, Dan.

--------------------
Audiophiles use phono leads because they are unbalanced people!


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narcoman
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Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #651230 - 28/08/08 08:30 PM
yup.

My least favourite sentence : "I have a passion for music".... I read that EVERYWHERE. What it means to me is "I wanna work in your place and use the studio downtime to do my music" - not what I want to hear. On the occasions I want people here - I want people who are ONLY and EXCLUSIVELY interested in the technical side of things. I don't want a producer wannabe!!

moving on....


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Fastlane



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Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #651237 - 28/08/08 08:48 PM
Interestingly enough - the same barriers exist for many people with "tech school" diplomas in other fields, as well.

For instance - it's all well and good for you to get a certificate for programming in "pascal" - which many people did in the early 90's and were employable at the time.

However, when the industry shifted directions, the "tech school" people either had to completely retrain, or hopefully rely on some work experience that broadened their horizons.

The truth of the matter is that learning how to use a flavour of software (recording or otherwise) does not a career make.

That's not to say that there aren't tech schools out there that teach a proper foundation in skills, problem solving, creativity, etc. What the folks here seem to be saying is that those programs are few and far between. And - the idea that a grad of even a great program is going to be magically employable by "the man" is rubbish.

I think the biggest complaint from the "old guard" is the fact that music tech school grads seem inevitably convinced they are going to get a "job" out of it. I mean that in the traditional sense - where you work for an employer who pays you a salary/wage. Can a great engineer and/or talented artist carve a spot in the market for their skills? Undoubtedly yes. But it seems almost always as a result of their out-of-tech-school skills (i.e. business, marketing, etc). And the hard work. The old guard you refer to knows that a free ride doesn't exist and rightfully tries to point that fact out to the less experienced.

Just my 2 cents - which are probably worth less than 2.

Lane


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JC LA



Joined: 23/08/08
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Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #651244 - 28/08/08 09:06 PM
I have had the pleasure of working with both people who have had music tech education and also with people who just went the tea boy route.

And to be honest, it was all good!

maybe i got lucky, i dont know.

I guess, for me it comes down to the fact that some people are not easy to work with and others are.

whether you are succesful, i think has little to do with having/not having music tech education.

its like the stories about people who have parents who were alcoholic:

1 child says "they were, so then I will be too"

the other child says:

"they were alcoholic and so im not going to touch a drop"

its completely down to how you see things.

--------------------
Music Marketing Online


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Rockrooms



Joined: 06/12/05
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Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #651251 - 28/08/08 09:10 PM
Quote Joe_caithness:

hmmm...
or hassled some studios into letting them make tea but never got showed how upwards expansion can be used as a subtle alternative to RMS compression on a mix bus.




But therein lies the rub. Frankly I couldn't give a toss about upward expansion or RMS compression on a mix bus and nor could most (well actually all) of my clients. Making a good cup of tea and getting them ready to give a fantastic performance that is going to sound great so they are happy to pay up, want to come back and will recommend the studio to all and sundry is what matters.

Perhaps one of the reasons the old guard get a bit irked by all the music tech courses is the lack of business reality and that pointing this out seems to constantly fall on deaf ears. It's the music business we're in. The one does not survive without the other.

From a personal point of view, there are massive gaps in my music tech knowledge, but the ones in my business knowledge are the ones that need filling first.

It's the Witch, not the wand, to nick a quote from Insider Audio.

- Joe -
Rockrooms Studio


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dmills



Joined: 25/08/06
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Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: narcoman]
      #651263 - 28/08/08 09:30 PM
Quote narcoman:

I want people who are ONLY and EXCLUSIVELY interested in the technical side of things. I don't want a producer wannabe!!
moving on....




Oh god, YES!

You get them in theatre as well, but I think they are worse, they tend to be wannabe authors or directors...

Guess who is mysteriously absent at 3AM during the load out (When you want the inexperienced cassies to push boxes to the truck)?

For some reason I have found that classically trained dancers sometimes make very good techs (You have to teach the board operation and the like but they seem to tend to have the mindset for it).

Regards, Dan.

--------------------
Audiophiles use phono leads because they are unbalanced people!


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narcoman
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Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: JC LA]
      #651264 - 28/08/08 09:30 PM
Quote JC LA:

I have had the pleasure of working with both people who have had music tech education and also with people who just went the tea boy route.

And to be honest, it was all good!

maybe i got lucky, i dont know.

I guess, for me it comes down to the fact that some people are not easy to work with and others are.

whether you are succesful, i think has little to do with having/not having music tech education.

its like the stories about people who have parents who were alcoholic:

1 child says "they were, so then I will be too"

the other child says:

"they were alcoholic and so im not going to touch a drop"

its completely down to how you see things.




the quality of the people isn't really the issue. It's the ruddy QUANTITY. 4000 grads a year chasing 10 or 20 jobs. That's it. There are something like 50,000 music tech grads in the UK alone. No where NEAR anything like that figure of total employment.


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Neil C
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Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: narcoman]
      #651266 - 28/08/08 09:36 PM
Quote narcoman:

Doing a music tech course is a huge, nay, MASSIVE waste of time. I am currently lobbying a couple of governmental types to limit the number of places on courses such as this.




I don't know of any higher education subjects where numbers are capped according to likely future employment demand. Certainly would be an interesting picture if that were the case across all subjects - massive upheaval it would be.
People are entitled to aim to study what they like, although they should go into it fully cognisant of the facts.
If a course provider makes a false promise or claim than that is a behaviour independant of subject, it is bad/maybe immoral/maybe illegal practice that should be dealt with. Same with standards of tuition where public money is involved.


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narcoman
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Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Neil C]
      #651270 - 28/08/08 09:40 PM
Quote Neil C:

Quote narcoman:

Doing a music tech course is a huge, nay, MASSIVE waste of time. I am currently lobbying a couple of governmental types to limit the number of places on courses such as this.




I don't know of any higher education subjects where numbers are capped according to likely future employment demand. Certainly would be an interesting picture if that were the case across all subjects - massive upheaval it would be.
People are entitled to aim to study what they like.
If a course provider makes a false promise or claim than that is a behaviour independant of subject, it is bad/maybe immoral/maybe illegal practice that should be dealt with.




Absolutely. No subjects are capped yet. I'm of the opinion that perhaps they should be. There should be limited places - which was more the way when education in universities where nationalised.... THIS is the problem with privatized Unis and colleges. Profit comes first, rather than the REAL interests of the young....


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hollowsun



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Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Rockrooms]
      #651271 - 28/08/08 09:40 PM
Quote Rockrooms:

Making a good cup of tea and getting them ready to give a fantastic performance that is going to sound great so they are happy to pay up, want to come back and will recommend the studio to all and sundry is what matters.



Agreed. To my knowledge, THAT aspect is not taught and in many circumstances, that is often more important to the job (and keeping it and getting asked back) than anything else. You can be a f'king genius but if you're an objectionable, arrogant, opinionated twat, people won't want to work with you even if you can deliver the goods (the worst scenario being if you're an objectionable, arrogant, opinionated twat and CAN'T deliver - a gobby shite merchant in other words. Sadly, far too many of those around!).

You are there to keep your client(s) happy. It should be a given that you can do that at a technical level - the 'social' side, however, is another matter and you must be as skilled in that as much as anything else ... sorting out a stroppy guitarist or producer in a studio, working towards avoiding the prima donna lead vocalist storming off stage at a live gig you're mixing, reacting favourably to delivery time on a project when the project manager brings the deadline two weeks forward and so on ... and handling those situations as diplomatically as possible.

Quote Rockrooms:

Perhaps one of the reasons the old guard get a bit irked by all the music tech courses is the lack of business reality and that pointing this out seems to constantly fall on deaf ears.



Yup. I don't know how many threads we've had of this nature here but still they crop up with alarming regularity. And almost every time someone asks for honest opinions from experienced people on the matter, they invariably don't want to hear them when they get them ... and then invariably the claim that the old farts are protecting their jobs follows swiftly afterwards.

--------------------
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A Non O Miss



Joined: 07/02/08
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Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #651273 - 28/08/08 09:43 PM
They should first take an Economics course and learn the basics of supply and demand.


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Steve Hill
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Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #651278 - 28/08/08 10:12 PM
I don't mind people (who after all pay some fees for it these days) taking a year or so out to learn something about as useless as Ancient Greek or Latin.

I do mind so-called educators making false claims about how they have all these industry contacts which will help you get a job, because that's just bollocks. (Somebody will now pipe up and say he got a job. Well good. Now let's talk about the other 4,999).

Some courses also make dubious claims about how much hands-on time you get with the toys, and fail to mention that there are 30 people queuing up for every spare bit of downtime. Some courses are equipped, if that's not too strong a word for it, with ageing, well-dodgy gear. I've got a graduate from a very highly esteemed course with me right now who claims that devoting an entire term to midi was the biggest waste of a few months of his life he could possibly imagine. I could go on.

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


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narcoman
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Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: A Non O Miss]
      #651302 - 28/08/08 11:13 PM
Quote A Non O' Miss:

They should first take an Economics course and learn the basics of supply and demand.




hah!

Perhaps that says it all! nice.


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creepy_man



Joined: 26/08/08
Posts: 11
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #651305 - 28/08/08 11:24 PM
The thing is now that all you people here are going to be out of a job anyway.

With a recession audio engineers are not really that useful.

As for everything else on this thread. Who cares.

In my opinion all the people on this thread should not be engineers/producers/muscians allowed to talk about music.


They only dilute and confuse the public away from the real talents like geroge martin or some one we know.

Not like the nobody knob twidlers on this thread. Who at best produce untalented 4 chord bands and think they know something worth sharing.

Go play with your train set nerds...


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A Non O Miss



Joined: 07/02/08
Posts: 927
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: creepy_man]
      #651308 - 28/08/08 11:31 PM
Quote:

The thing is now that all you people here are going to be out of a job anyway.

With a recession audio engineers are not really that useful.




Actually history has proven music sales to increase when the economy is in a recession.

Quote:


In my opinion all the people on this thread should not be engineers/producers/muscians allowed to talk about music.


They only dilute and confuse the public away from the real talents like geroge martin or some one we know.

Not like the nobody knob twidlers on this thread. Who at best produce untalented 4 chord bands and think they know something worth sharing.

Go play with your train set nerds...




??? 9 posts here. Well I see you know it all and have spent considerable time seeing a multitude of posts by all these users. Funny enough, *not including* myself, most of the others posting in this thread are who I would consider to be the smartest on this forum and most worthy of posting good material. The people you actually should listen to. Maybe take some time, look around more, get to know them in an anonymous way, and then pass judgment.

Edited by A Non O' Miss (29/08/08 12:06 AM)


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Steve Hill
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Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: creepy_man]
      #651313 - 28/08/08 11:46 PM
Creepyman

This trainspotting nerd is a moderator, and you signed up to a set of forum rules in which you undertook to refrain from personal abuse.

We can have intelligent discussions and honest disagreements without resorting to personal abuse. Some of us can, anyway.

Consider this a formal warning. Any repetition and you will be banned without further notice.

P.S. the "train set" using my studio as I type is a band with over 30 albums in their discography. I venture the wholly immodest opinion that they and I have earned the right to tell you where to go.

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


Edited by Steve Hill (28/08/08 11:51 PM)


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Jon Con



Joined: 19/12/05
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Loc: Cardiff, UK
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #651316 - 29/08/08 12:10 AM
i think in alot of cases you may find that going to university that some of the places may have spent alot money on marketing the course to get you through the door. You can often then find that throughout the year you speak to peers who find themselves saying "the course isn't what I'd imagine it would be".

Providing you have a realistic understanding of how the industry is shaped I don't think there is any problem going down this route, just make the best use of your time and get as much experience along the way. Some of my friends are about to start the third year of their uni course in engineering and haven't had chance to access the studios yet because all the available booking slots always get prioritised to 3rd year students for their final projects and they haven't got enough space to cater for all their students. In the last year I've found myself recording more people working a full time job than some of my friends have had at uni and learning as much just from buying as many books as I can lay my hands on the different subjects. I've found I've also learnt more from being in a band and paying for studio time to work with different producers.

of all the people I know who went to uni to do a production course, the only person who I could say has been a success and has stood head and shoulders above the others was a guy who started recording when he was 15, featured in studio SOS about 7/8 years ago and has recently been tied up recording Funeral for a friends new album. He went to Glamorgan and left after something like a month because he realised he didn't really need to be the course and was starting to get himself in a position to make money from his studio full time and this was about 5 years ago. He started when most bands weren't recording their own demos but he's survived because he very good at what he does.

It can be great for some people but I wouldn't say it's snobbery from the likes of Narcoman or RedBladder, I imagine it would be more of a case of experiencing the situation first hand

all the best anyways man
Jon

*edited slightly because of bad grammar

Edited by Jon Con (29/08/08 12:14 AM)


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narcoman
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Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: creepy_man]
      #651322 - 29/08/08 12:20 AM
Quote creepy_man:

The thing is now that all you people here are going to be out of a job anyway.

With a recession audio engineers are not really that useful.

As for everything else on this thread. Who cares.

In my opinion all the people on this thread should not be engineers/producers/muscians allowed to talk about music.


They only dilute and confuse the public away from the real talents like geroge martin or some one we know.

Not like the nobody knob twidlers on this thread. Who at best produce untalented 4 chord bands and think they know something worth sharing.

Go play with your train set nerds...




How's over 100million sales grab ya?

How about none of these guys help you out with your other thread on sorting out your sample library. Cannot stand the rudeness slowly finding its way from GS to here. Nip it in the bud.

Go for it Mods. Ban him.... sod the warnings....


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TurboD



Joined: 22/06/07
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Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #651325 - 29/08/08 12:26 AM
While I understand where many of you are coming from with education establishments duping money out of naive youngsters, PLEASE can we have a stop to the abuse that the youngsters get thrown themselves? If you have a problem with the establishment, fight the establishment - not the innocent ones who are merely eager and being pushed into University by their parents (not to mention the government). They may require some direction, as we all do at points in our lives; however I'm sure at the times when you yourselves were there you didn't appreciate tirades of sarcasm.

I think that few parents these days would actually feel happy at the prospect of their children saying "actually Mum, I don't want to go to University. I want to go and wedge myself into a grubby studio where I can work for free and make tea for years on end." And lest we forget, some of these institutes can actually teach people things. Heaven forbid.

Yes, I am one of the ones that got a job.

--------------------
"He that hears music feels his solitude peopled at once." - Robert Browning


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Handlestash



Joined: 30/01/08
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Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #651368 - 29/08/08 07:48 AM
As cited above it's the unrealistic prospects that some of these colleges are selling that gets my goat aroused (HUH?)

Try and find the pulse recording college advert on line for a good current example.

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http://songsforvoiceandpiano.com/


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narcoman
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Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: TurboD]
      #651374 - 29/08/08 08:10 AM
Quote TurboD:

While I understand where many of you are coming from with education establishments duping money out of naive youngsters, PLEASE can we have a stop to the abuse that the youngsters get thrown themselves? If you have a problem with the establishment, fight the establishment - not the innocent ones who are merely eager and being pushed into University by their parents (not to mention the government). They may require some direction, as we all do at points in our lives; however I'm sure at the times when you yourselves were there you didn't appreciate tirades of sarcasm.

I think that few parents these days would actually feel happy at the prospect of their children saying "actually Mum, I don't want to go to University. I want to go and wedge myself into a grubby studio where I can work for free and make tea for years on end." And lest we forget, some of these institutes can actually teach people things. Heaven forbid.

Yes, I am one of the ones that got a job.




where is the abuse at the youngsters themselves? It's ALWAYS the music tech colleges we have a go at - it's the "youngsters" we're al trying to protect. And very lucky you....


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ZukanModerator
Zukan


Joined: 12/09/03
Posts: 9245
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #651381 - 29/08/08 08:34 AM
Don't worry HS.

Dude's been banned anyway.

May the thread continue.


--------------------
Samplecraze
Stretch That Note


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hollowsun



Joined: 20/01/05
Posts: 5582
Loc: Cowbridge, South Wales
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Zukan]
      #651389 - 29/08/08 08:46 AM
Quote Zukan:

Don't worry HS.

Dude's been banned anyway.



I deleted my post - couldn't be arsed in rising to his bait ... dunno why I did to be honest!

Banned you say, Zuke? Oh dear - does that mean we also won't be able to read about the 'raw power' he has in the forthcoming SOS interview with him? Shame - I was interested to see how big his train set was!

--------------------
Website / Music Lab Machines / Blog


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ZukanModerator
Zukan


Joined: 12/09/03
Posts: 9245
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: hollowsun]
      #651396 - 29/08/08 08:55 AM
I too await with bated breath................

--------------------
Samplecraze
Stretch That Note


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narcoman
active member


Joined: 14/08/01
Posts: 8514
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Zukan]
      #651399 - 29/08/08 09:03 AM
Quote Zukan:

Don't worry HS.

Dude's been banned anyway.

May the thread continue.





Like the yoda....


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thomomatic



Joined: 20/12/04
Posts: 208
Loc: London UK
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #651405 - 29/08/08 09:23 AM
How does one become a "sound engineer"? (whatever that means...)
If, nowdays the big studios don't exist and therefore don't hire teaboys/ tape ops, then how a youngster will learn the basics? Working for 2-3 years for free making tea, isn't it roughly equivalent with studying a diploma for lets say 9 months? (in terms of "wasting time" or money or both) In which 9 moths, you'll get to use studios as well as record artists?
There is music and sound for films and adverts and tv (post pro)
there is a thriving live music scene, at least here in london.
there is theatre sound
there is radio
and there is studio work
and education (you can become a lecturer/ technician whatever in one of those establishments, or even better, in studios of music universities.)
sales of music technology equipment?
broadcast engineering?
aren't those valid career paths? how can we say there aren't any jobs out there? Of course there are, but no one will hand them out to you, you got to go, as with any other mother****in' job in the world, and chase it. Plus, you start anyway/ anywhere from the bottom. No one will offer you a position as the general manager of Abbey road studios at the age of 21. Thats where experience comes in. Thats what you gain while you are working. After you get some basic knowledge from education in a relative background. The issue is how fast you'll rise. and its entirely up to the individuals.
Plus some of us we haven't got the luck to own big barns and have loads of space to set up our own free studio with no rent costs/ need soundproofing etc.
From those 6000 graduates of various music tech courses a year how many really know what they want to do? 2000? how many are really talented?200? Yes there are 185 jobs per year out there for those 200 i bet. sure its not 6000 jobs, but not all 6000 want to do that. they learn from their mistakes.
Times and people evolve. its not better or worse than it was before for people that like sound. Thats what i think anyway. Oh, you need contacts and people and this is people skills that you can't teach... and some people have it some not! (certainly not this rude creep_man guy on this thread)
regards
t

--------------------
www.coorecords.com
www.last.fm/music/cloudcub


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molecular
member


Joined: 13/12/03
Posts: 699
Loc: north a bit, west a bit
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: thomomatic]
      #651415 - 29/08/08 09:40 AM
In my limited experience of being a recording artist in a studio environment (the making of one album and a couple of singles), nothing was more valuable to me and the rest of the band than having, on the other side of the glass, an affable character who never stressed out and thought what we were recording was worth doing.

Next, when we said we wanted to spend two hours recording the earth hum from an old synth through a Sherman, they said 'that sounds fun', and not 'f*** off you audio-retards'

Next, they could fix things with soldering irons, which saved them money and earned our respect in an odd way.

I'm sure that somewhere down the line they were involved with millisec.-accurate release times on their upward expanders, but if they didn't have the above qualities in spades, I wouldn't have given a s**t.

And while I'm here - why do the people who use these threads as an opportunity to blurt out insults always always have abysmal grammar?

What happened to good old fashioned, devastatingly constructed, 'Raffles the gentleman thug' style ravaging wit?

--------------------
Anto mo Ninja, Watashi mo Ninja
http://www.hectormacinnes.com


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The Red Bladder



Joined: 05/06/07
Posts: 2441
Loc: . ...
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #651418 - 29/08/08 09:57 AM
Oh Dear!

The lies told by the education industry seem to be more ingrained than I had originally thought.

These are the jobs you describe and after them, I have placed the kind of qualifications and experience you will have to have to get them -


"Music and sound for films and adverts"

Tonmeister or study music, followed by some experience with arranging for these fields.

"Live music and Theatre"

Same as for above. Experience is here more important than any qualification.

"Radio"

Music radio is self-op, so nothing there. Radio Four stuff is done by production assistants, so journalism or modern languages or some sort of journalistic study (politics, law, economics, etc.) is usually required. Pushing faders on Radio Four is the first step to a career in journalism, not engineering.

"there is studio work"

Let's see now - there are about 30 full-time commercial studios in the UK, with 60% of all turnover going to the London Big Three. Nearly all done by older freelancers and Tonmeisters.

"and education (you can become a lecturer/ technician whatever in one of those establishments, or even better, in studios of music universities.)"

Ha! Ha! Ha!

"sales of music technology equipment?"

Basic technology qualification (ONC to HND path). Proven sales track-record is vital.

"broadcast engineering?"

BSc in electronic engineering or ONC to HND path.

"aren't those valid career paths? how can we say there aren't any jobs out there?"

Plenty of good jobs out there, but none for graduates of recording courses.


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Dave Rowles



Joined: 28/02/08
Posts: 1449
Loc: Isle of Man
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: thomomatic]
      #651427 - 29/08/08 10:09 AM
Having done a degree course and now being in live sound (degree was studio based) I have to say that what they taught there was useful to a certain extent. I was more academic at that point in my life so writing essays was something I could do easily. The course also did a fair chunk on acoustics and physics which I find incredibly useful when talking to install guys.

At the end of the day they never said that I was going to get a job in the music industry, they didn't sell the course as being about that.

They did have a brilliant lecturer in the 3rd year who basically told us that there weren't any jobs and if you wanted to work you'd have to fight hard to do it. He should've been in the first year then they could've culled the course down to less people...although given the money aspect they probably don't want to do that! The lecturer was a manager for a producer and a couple of bands.

I do not regret the time I spent at university. There was a lot of fun and frolics, and a lot of time spent messing around in a studio and getting a degree for it. The total enjoyment factor of uni far out-weighed the irrelevance of some of the modules in my opinion. Yeah, maybe I'm 3 years behind where I could've been if I'd gone straight into live sound, but not one regret.

--------------------
www.manninmusic.com Bandcamp
Sound Engineer, Music Teacher, Isle of Man


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Handlestash



Joined: 30/01/08
Posts: 1327
Loc: Ireland
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #651429 - 29/08/08 10:15 AM
Did SOS have an article about this subject that I missed? I seem to remember something...

--------------------
http://soundcloud.com/anthony-wall/sets/audio-reel
http://songsforvoiceandpiano.com/


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jayzed
member


Joined: 19/03/04
Posts: 846
Loc: North London
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #651430 - 29/08/08 10:20 AM
IMHO the most important things for success in this industry are likeablility and flexibility, with talent closely behind and luck up there somewhere. It doesn't matter what toys you've used, it's how you get on with people and get the best from them. Flexibility comes from knowing where the opportunities will come from. I started out in a band, became a Tape-op at a large southern hemishpere studio, did a small stint house engineering (before a certain recording school bought out the studio!) and am now working for digital agencies doing sound and music for mini-games and websites. I don't consider myself a roaring sucess sound wise, especially when compared to some of the guys I worked with but I make a living and I enjoy what I do. I think my experience is more typical these days than the tape-op, house engineer, freelance engineer, super-producer career paths that that of the lucky, talented and generally nice people that we see interviewed in SOS.

One other thing I'd like to say. In my experience it's a negative for the engineers/producers to be 'cooler' than the band. Musicians and other performers like to feel like they're the shiniest people in the room, it helps with their confidence. Have a look at the bios of most of the really sucessful engineers out there - Fashion disasters. It also shows that they are more interested in how things are going to sound that the appearance of it all. That job is for the artists and the marketing wonks. Apart from the fact that if you really have a passion for this stuff you won't have the time to go clothes shopping, or to the tatooist. Just an observation. As for me, well I'm a fashion disaster without the major success - perhaps I should overcompensate and dress up a bit?? :-)


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Mike Craig
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Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Zukan]
      #651433 - 29/08/08 10:27 AM


Zuke Skywalker! May the force be with you.

(I hope that's supposed to be a light sabre?!)



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Joe_caithness



Joined: 30/07/06
Posts: 262
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #651436 - 29/08/08 10:35 AM
interesting thread.

havn't had time to read all of these replys yet but two points I want to bring up.


1. ok the course costed me 6000 in fees (plus ones I dont really ever have to pay back in bulk), but if i had 6000 quid before doing it and have set up a business, or got studio equipment to learn I would have bought a naff interface, naff preamps, a load of middle of the road mic kits, and I would have been 18 and had no brain for business.

if you are clever about it, like me and to be fair, few, of my generation of ex music tech students used our student loans, and our spare time to set up our own little project on the go and are now doing their thing, I for one am now teaching the skills I learned at a basic level to kids who have been kicked out of school, to help them express themselves and ease them back into education without them noticing.

my brother is another example, his studio is the perfect balance between music tech knolwedge and general musicians who just want to get involved/do whatever. He is running a , just recently commercial studio in Warwickshire, with a friend of his who also went to Confetti (although my brother went to Lancaster), as well as someone without music qualification but a keen eye for electronics. Between them they have the skills and the contacts to do their thing, but only because they didnt RELY on their formal education.

2. My extremely tounge in cheek comment about upward expansion was basically me saying that not only am I now a hardworking focused (although [ ****** ] at making tea im afraid) engineer, I also know a lot of different techniques, that I can apply if you do hire me on the basis of my portfolio

and to be fair, anyone with half a brain will have spent more time working up a brilliant recording, mixing and mastering portfolio than doing humoungous essays.



I think my main point is this kinda thing is an important entry for many people, although it is often sold as a dream which isnt there, those people who believe that dream, would they really last in the industry as it is!? It's a wheat from the chaff thing as much as anything.


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oggyb



Joined: 09/02/08
Posts: 1614
Loc: Leeds, UK
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Dave Rowles]
      #651440 - 29/08/08 10:43 AM
Quote Exavior Music:

Having done a degree course and now being in live sound (degree was studio based) I have to say that what they taught there was useful to a certain extent. I was more academic at that point in my life so writing essays was something I could do easily. The course also did a fair chunk on acoustics and physics which I find incredibly useful when talking to install guys.

At the end of the day they never said that I was going to get a job in the music industry, they didn't sell the course as being about that.

They did have a brilliant lecturer in the 3rd year who basically told us that there weren't any jobs and if you wanted to work you'd have to fight hard to do it. He should've been in the first year then they could've culled the course down to less people...although given the money aspect they probably don't want to do that! The lecturer was a manager for a producer and a couple of bands.

I do not regret the time I spent at university. There was a lot of fun and frolics, and a lot of time spent messing around in a studio and getting a degree for it. The total enjoyment factor of uni far out-weighed the irrelevance of some of the modules in my opinion. Yeah, maybe I'm 3 years behind where I could've been if I'd gone straight into live sound, but not one regret.




Hear here.

--------------------
Composer;
www.ogonline.org


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jayzed
member


Joined: 19/03/04
Posts: 846
Loc: North London
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #651442 - 29/08/08 10:45 AM
I don't think any of us older types are saying that a brilliant (or just comfortable) career can not be made by someone who has attended one of the courses.
It just seems that the courses are sold on a false premise (that there are engineering jobs and that attending their course will get you one) and most people will be disappointed. Also, that the money is most likely to have been better spent elsewhere - maybe you could get value through personal networking but I'm sure there are cheaper ways to do that for youngsters. In my opinion, you would be better off buying the wrong equipment and learning through experience why it's wrong than attending most of the courses. It's actually quite hard to buy the wrong stuff these days, anyway. In fact, from what I've seen these courses are doing a huge dis-service by emphasising gear - one thing I've learned in this day of digital is that limitations are a blessing. They aid creativity and improve focus.
Of course, as we go on and the only people around are those who have attended courses then any bias against them may change, as is obvious from this thread and others no one likes being told that their decisions have been wrong - this still will not make the whole rotten system any less of a rip off for the vast majority who feel there is any sort of career path for them apart from whatever they make up themselves.

Thats better.

It's like the housing market, it will eventually devour itself to the point where the only real jobs left are teaching people for those jobs. Where's the actual music/sound in all of that?


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Handlestash



Joined: 30/01/08
Posts: 1327
Loc: Ireland
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #651450 - 29/08/08 11:03 AM
Where has the current mythology that sound engineering is a fantastic job come from anyway? Particularly in regard to modern music and the kids who listen to it.
The industry is so sterile now that the only sexy link in the whole chain seems to be the videos.
The rest of it just seems like an assembly line. I could be totally wrong of course, (I occupy my own little world as an engineer, working only with people I like and spending most of my time desperatly trying to get my career as a musician off the tarmac) but sitting behind a desk stuck between a producer a company executive and a lawyer all deciding how the record should sound doesn't sound like fun at all. Regardless of the money.
If you're doing the course to explore how the technology works and apply it to your own plan (like I did) great. Otherwise. Meh.
Be a music video director instead and spray Rhianna with a giant hose.

Oh, and I'm by no means 'old guard'.
I live in Ireland and there's f**king loads of recording colleges and, like, 6 or 7 big studios. Probably only one of which is any sort of step up to a major career. The first studio I ever recorded in had a tape op who had a masters in electronic engineering. And a city and guilds degree in sound engineering. He's the only guy I've ever met who got an industry job here (he assisted on an REM record, got a credit and everything. I think he was in on a couple of U2 things too). Which qualification do you think hooked him that job?

Edited by Handlestash (29/08/08 11:14 AM)


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thomomatic



Joined: 20/12/04
Posts: 208
Loc: London UK
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: The Red Bladder]
      #651454 - 29/08/08 11:11 AM
Red Bladder,

I like people with strong opinions and i don't have a problem discussing but i think you are very strongly opinionated in one side only. And nothing we say/ discuss/ argue in this thread will make you change your mind. If you think that there are plenty of jobs but not for the people who do sound engineering courses fine, be like that, i don't mind.

--------------------
www.coorecords.com
www.last.fm/music/cloudcub


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