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John Willett
Sound-Link ProAudio


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Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Akronist]
      #653397 - 04/09/08 04:43 PM
Quote Akronist:

Hi All .......................




At least you have the advantage of being in Cardiff - the Cardiff Recording Club is very active so you have a chance to learn a lot from experienced people (the Chairman is ex-BBC) and get "hands-on" without really paying for it (other than a membership fee).

--------------------
John - Sound-Link ProAudio
President - Federation Internationale des Chasseurs de Sons


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Steve Hill
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Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Akronist]
      #653402 - 04/09/08 05:01 PM
Quote Akronist:

I'm far from knowledgeable enough on the subject to say with any degree of certainty, but it seems to me that the birth of 'academic' courses for Music Technology have resulted in the inability to follow the 'traditional' path of an engineer, at least on the whole.




I don't argue with your conclusion, but I don't think the creation of the courses created the lack of jobs (I'll blame them for many things, but not that!).

The problem is the courses came about roughly a decade after the bubble had already burst. We might as well train people to make bows and arrows.

Nothing is going to change the dynamics of the studio business. It's a rare week I don't ask myself why do I carry on (answer - I love it, and can afford to indulge what is basically an expensive hobby).

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


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table for two
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Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #653413 - 04/09/08 05:24 PM
Moments, in solitude, walking, travelling, early hours, late nights, anytime
flashes of ideas come to our hearts ...
moments when we are somehow feeling selfless ...
these ideas usually are not those that we personally would derive monetary benfeit from,
yet if these ideas were followed through, selflessly, through the "proper" channels, with adequate patronage,
would generate income of its own.


(If anything, along with a lot of personal inner rewards, beats working like a dawg).




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Nathan



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old gaurd mindstate? = happy birthday mr willett new [Re: table for two]
      #653432 - 04/09/08 06:08 PM
heh, many happy returns, sir...

--------------------
planet nine
lincoln, uk.


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stevie j



Joined: 22/05/07
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Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: J-M]
      #653536 - 05/09/08 01:37 AM
Quote J-M:


Quote stevie j:



Amy Winehouse's sax player.




Did he look like Hank Marvin? He was in Mandella Hall a couple of Fridays ago. He was fully on the pull like.




Yeah, he did, but he was in the Black Box with me on the Sunday.
Part of the Big River Blues thing.

--------------------
Disclaimer: Advice is taken at your own risk.


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Wizard Moon Chopper



Joined: 28/10/05
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Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #653569 - 05/09/08 08:22 AM
I think what we have to realise is that this is now the music business. Yes there are commercial musicians and infrastructures sourrounding them, and yes there are people making a decent living from music, no doubt about that. But actually, the music business now is selling cheap audio tech gear, advice and education to people who wan't to make music at home. Just as once upon a time people had a piano and bought sheet music and played to entertain themselves in the evenings.


There's quite a history of musicianship amongst the British middle classes. There are many acomplished musicians in there and many would put a lot of semi-pro's and some pro's to shame for their knowledge and skills, but it's fun, it's thought upon by many as a core discipline required to educate and develop a rounded person and very few of these people ever expect to make a living from music, it's for fun and it's for relaxation and it brings an alternative view of the world and some wisdom and culture and understanding which helps them in their life and chosen career.

I have a skewed view of these courses. I only know one person who did one and he finished and got a job in a post production studio in the west-end and is doing quite well. But, he's totally mad for it. Comes from a family who have supported him financially, he's a brilliant guitarist looks great and is a really nice kid and was running pro-tools in his Dad's studio with a teddy bear in the other hand. And, he was made for and of music. There was never any question. He did the course to get his hands on some nice analogue gear and to have fun and meet people, girls mainly... and his family have history and plenty of contacts. There was never any question that he would have a career in music.

If you do a course and hope to get a job at the end, you're up against people like him.We are on second and third generation rock & roll now, and people have kids, and like carpenters, their kids ofen follow in their footsteps.

Carving out a career in the music industry has never been easy, even when you needed a quarter million singles to get to number one it wasn't easy. Making a living in any field of art is very very difficult.

I truly think that if you have to ask then you probably don't stand much chance. I don't think it's one of those businesses where you sit back and think "Hmmm, shall i be a plumber, or and insurance salesman or a music producer". It's one of those businesses where you have a cyanide capsule between your back teeth because you just have to do it.

But, there is an awful lot of fun to be had and it will make you a more rounded and cultured person and it will make you look at things in other ways and it will help you in your life and chosen career to make music, well, any art in fact.

Just my 2 vulscoodas [Lowest vulcan monetary denomination]

--------------------
Yeah!


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Tomás Mulcahy
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Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #653572 - 05/09/08 08:27 AM
Mr. Spock, thanks for a positive insight in an otherwise depressing thread!

I think the problem is that most of these courses are geared towards music, rather than engineering. The title "Music Technology" is attractive, but misleading, because as has been established, that's not where the work is.

There is a decent amount of work available in film, radio and TV- for example, currently in Ireland there's a major shortage of location sound people. It's a constant problem for production companies. It's not glamorous, but it's skilled, pleasant with quite sociable hours. Far better than studio engineering, or live sound reinforcement.

So if the musicians and composers would get sense and do arts/ music degrees, and leave the technology to the engineers, they'd stand a better chance of figuring out how to make a living. IMHO.

--------------------
madtheory creations
Synths and pianos for Kontakt


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Akronist



Joined: 10/07/08
Posts: 7
Loc: Cardiff, South Wales
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: John Willett]
      #653610 - 05/09/08 10:00 AM
Thanks for this info John- I hate to admit that i wasn't aware of this body, but i'll certainly be checking it out.

I liked what Mr Spok said as well- one thing that never changes is that with enough drive, you can usually achieve your ultimate goal.


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Dr Whom



Joined: 25/02/07
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Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #653791 - 05/09/08 05:32 PM
well i think i'd rather see the BBC ressurect their apprentice system seeing as we f8cking pay for them!!!

an organisation that size, payed for by taxes, should be training as part of their mandate imo.

or we spend 7 mill on johnny ross & another 100 mill on a further raft of minor tosspot celebs - whatever

perhaps a positive thing would be to start a petition to get the bbc to re-institute apprenticeships?

and not in some up it's arse complicated cost-the-earth way, just do it simple. Assign apprentices to work with BBC personel on a 1-1 basis; accompany them on a daily basis and watch, help and learn as they go.

it doesnt have to cost the earth, 99% of such trainees will be getting benefits anyways, so the govt can just top it up by a tenner or 20 quid a week for fares - thats nothing for a training scheme cost.

anyways better'n moaning about the state of play, and besides, thats the biggest employment sector, broadcast, indie film and radio etc not music recording studios.

--------------------
You might think that... but I couldn't possibly comment.


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oggyb



Joined: 09/02/08
Posts: 1615
Loc: Leeds, UK
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Dr Whom]
      #653798 - 05/09/08 06:35 PM
Quote Dr Whom:

well i think i'd rather see the BBC ressurect their apprentice system seeing as we f8cking pay for them!!!

an organisation that size, payed for by taxes, should be training as part of their mandate imo.

or we spend 7 mill on johnny ross & another 100 mill on a further raft of minor tosspot celebs - whatever

perhaps a positive thing would be to start a petition to get the bbc to re-institute apprenticeships?

and not in some up it's arse complicated cost-the-earth way, just do it simple. Assign apprentices to work with BBC personel on a 1-1 basis; accompany them on a daily basis and watch, help and learn as they go.

it doesnt have to cost the earth, 99% of such trainees will be getting benefits anyways, so the govt can just top it up by a tenner or 20 quid a week for fares - thats nothing for a training scheme cost.

anyways better'n moaning about the state of play, and besides, thats the biggest employment sector, broadcast, indie film and radio etc not music recording studios.




Seconded. . . obviously.

--------------------
Composer;
www.ogonline.org


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Hugh RobjohnsAdministrator
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Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Dr Whom]
      #653836 - 05/09/08 10:05 PM
Quote Dr Whom:

well i think i'd rather see the BBC ressurect their apprentice system seeing as we f8cking pay for them!!!




Er... it's partly the fact that there isn't enough money in the pot to do all that is required of the BBC that prevents them from delivering the technical training they once provided! But the 'all that's required of them' part is the topic of an entirely different discussion, and not one that is appropriate to hold on this forum. Let's just say that I share your view that the available income is being allocated to areas that I don't place anything like as much importance on...

Quote:

an organisation that size, payed for by taxes, should be training as part of their mandate imo.




You're right, they should... but to be fair, they do. Besides the training they still provide internally, they also have to pay vast sums of that licence money to various external organisations to help fund their industry training provisions too (places like the National Film and Television School, and Skillset, for example).

But the sad fact is that 'the suits' that run the Corporation don't value and have no respect for engineering excellence in general, or the technical crafts involved in radio and TV programme making in particular. The Corporation is shedding experienced and capable Studio Managers and Sound Supervisors as quickly as it can, and is actively 'retraining' production-oriented employees to do much of the technical work instead.

Standards and flexibility are both greatly reduced of course, but they either don't notice or don't care... and it more or less works if you only produce simple formulaic programmes. The big attraction to the accountants and business managers is that it lowers the production and staff costs significantly, and that way they get their nice fat bonuses.

And when it comes to needing more talented and experienced people to deliver the occasional complex programmes that they are called upon to produce, there are currently plenty of well trained ex-employees on the freelance market to buy in for a few days to fill the gaps.

It's a very cost effective solution that looks great in the annual reports and budget spreadsheets, and it will continue to be a cost-effective solution for about another 5-10 years. And then the bottom will fall out of the cocky accountants' little world as the supply of competent freelancers dries up completely. Tainted by experience, me? Surely not

Quote:

perhaps a positive thing would be to start a petition to get the bbc to re-institute apprenticeships?




Go for it. I'll sign it!

Quote:

Assign apprentices to work with BBC personel on a 1-1 basis; accompany them on a daily basis and watch, help and learn as they go.




That wouldn't actually work for a whole variety of reasons, but you are right in so far as it needn't cost the earth to deliver a decent training job given some modest resources and serious committment.

Hugh

--------------------
Technical Editor, Sound On Sound


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Rousseau
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Loc: down sarf
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #653900 - 06/09/08 10:47 AM
Sorry for arriving late to this thread, been on honeymoon these last few days.

As I've said many times here - non specifically for many important reasons - there are music tech degree courses that do not 'train' students to be sound engineers. Likewise, I think those who view the vast subject area of music technology as simply sound engineering are woefully out of date. Perhaps that's one downside to being an autodidact? IMO Hugh hit the nail on the head by saying that the game has to some extent shifted away from soldering and transistors, to the network and IT; Extrapolating this, there has been a fundamental shift from the corporate to the freelance; from the purpose built studio to the project studio; from the master of a single skill set to the versatile all-rounder.

The course I designed and sort of run (I prefer teaching renaissance polyphony and composition tbh) which will for obvious reasons remain nameless, is only a joint degree (one quarter techincal, one quarter business related) and most students take the other half in straight music (thank god) which is traditional (and far better for it).

The course was designed and moulded around what I and others saw were the main challenges facing the 'industry'. ie. Studios are closing down at an alarming rate, so what skills and knowledge might be useful for students wanting to make a living out of music - not classical sound engineering ones that was for sure. So our course is small (about 10 students a year) and essentially equips students to be versatile freelance composers and musicians working with technology. It's not perfect, no course is, but some students have been quite successful in finding their niche so far. As with all uni subjects, there will be those who make the most of the opportunities they are given and others who won't. I also try to expose them to some of the realities of working in the industry and do get some top ppl down each to tell them how it is.

I do of course agree with the sentiment that there are non-university courses out there which may not be ethically or morally upstanding and there should be tighter regulation.

Whilst there may not be many jobs as a sound engineer out there, there are myriad other opportunities in the field of music and technology.

Cheers


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Anonymous
Unregistered




Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Rousseau]
      #653904 - 06/09/08 11:05 AM
Quote Rousseau:

Sorry for arriving late to this thread, been on honeymoon these last few days.




Call that an excuse? You should've been checking in here hourly with your new wife/husband/partner of indeterminate gender (delete as applicable) to keep up with all the essential debate and exchange of information.

Congratulations


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Rousseau
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Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: ]
      #653908 - 06/09/08 11:19 AM
Quote 0VU:

Quote Rousseau:

Sorry for arriving late to this thread, been on honeymoon these last few days.




Call that an excuse? You should've been checking in here hourly with your new wife/husband/partner of indeterminate gender (delete as applicable) to keep up with all the essential debate and exchange of information.

Congratulations




Ta 0VU. Wife, and she's not protested too much yet. Still, early days yet.


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Steve Hill
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Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #653925 - 06/09/08 12:47 PM
Congrats Rousseau. Get her trained early though... checking the SOS board is essential, business related stuff. Right?

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


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redleicester
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Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Steve Hill]
      #653947 - 06/09/08 02:02 PM
Quote Steve Hill:

Congrats Rousseau. Get her trained early though... checking the SOS board is essential, business related stuff. Right?




Oh she knows her place, and knows what the industry is like - he's married the enemy: A mezzo!

--------------------
Ars longa, vita brevis, occasio praeceps, experimentum periculosum, iudicium difficile.


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oggyb



Joined: 09/02/08
Posts: 1615
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Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Rousseau]
      #654000 - 06/09/08 05:20 PM
Congratulations Rousseau!

--------------------
Composer;
www.ogonline.org


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Syncratic



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Loc: Cambs
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #654002 - 06/09/08 05:37 PM
Congrats Rousseau and great post, thanks.


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jrbcm



Joined: 13/05/05
Posts: 948
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #654005 - 06/09/08 06:10 PM
Rousseau-

Congrats on your mezzo marriage, but still, it can't hurt to sample and archive her just as a backup like


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Ian Stewart



Joined: 24/10/05
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Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Rousseau]
      #654013 - 06/09/08 06:40 PM
Quote Rousseau:


I prefer teaching renaissance polyphony




Congratulations on your marriage.

I have been meaning to study strict counterpoint for decades, maybe one day I will get round to it. (Incidentally my contemporary counterpoint is pretty good though).

--------------------
No longer a forum member.


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Rousseau
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Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: jrbcm]
      #654120 - 07/09/08 10:08 AM
Quote jrbcm:

Rousseau-

Congrats on your mezzo marriage, but still, it can't hurt to sample and archive her just as a backup like




Don't worry I've sampled her But seriously, she sings, bless her, on a lot of my stuff.

Cheers


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ZukanModerator
Zukan


Joined: 12/09/03
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Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #654135 - 07/09/08 11:14 AM
Congrats Rouss!





--------------------
Samplecraze
Stretch That Note


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Tomás Mulcahy
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Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Syncratic]
      #654276 - 07/09/08 09:25 PM
Quote SyncratiK:

Congrats Rousseau and great post, thanks.



Seconded

--------------------
madtheory creations
Synths and pianos for Kontakt


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mrthingy



Joined: 24/08/05
Posts: 84
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #654588 - 08/09/08 05:48 PM
I've only skimmed through this thread quickly, usally I'm only a reader of the forums, if I do post it's usally starting a thread with a silly question rather than repling. But as a former student on a music tech(ish) course I feel well qualified to reply to this one!

Quote onesecondglance:

those of us who failed miserably as a creative part of the industry - whether through laziness, or otherwise (was always my achilles heel) - the idea of just being in a studio all day sounds better than working in an office.





Yep, I wanted a job that I didn't dread getting up for. Who wouldn't want to make money off something they love doing? I think may people who take these courses think it will get them that job, when in reality it will only be some help, although as others have said it is stuff that can be learned sitting in a room with a few books.

Quote Jon Con:

You can often then find that throughout the year you speak to peers who find themselves saying "the course isn't what I'd imagine it would be".





I'm not sure who it was who said something about doing a course on midi and finding it a complete waste of time. I did a course on midi and some of it was helpfull. I'm sure there was other people on the course who felt it was a waste, but most of them were the ones who weren't as good at the maths and physics side of things. I didn't particuarly want to do maths but I was more accomplised on that side of things and everybody had to get to the same level. It was a bachelor of science so it was naive to think it would all be making tunes.

Quote Steve Hill:


Some courses also make dubious claims about how much hands-on time you get with the toys, and fail to mention that there are 30 people queuing up for every spare bit of downtime. Some courses are equipped, if that's not too strong a word for it.




I don't think I was ever misguided about the hands on time, but I think this is the difference between the path of eductation vs tea boy/gofer. If I remember rightly I the first year our only time spent in anything that resembled a proper studio was with a lecturer showing us stuff. There was no time to to get in yourself and play with the bells and whistles, because 3rd years students got priority. In the same studio, we recorded people. One person was egineer, one did mic placement, one tape op, the rest would have to watch, but may get a go one of the other roles in a fortnights time (didn't have the time or staff to have a group in there every week). I didn't bother with the in studio project in the third year, but it was basicly "record some stuff" yourself. In another module we used, it was a few years ago now and I can't remeber the name of it, some computer based recording system that I had never heard of before and the only time I've heard of it out side of uni I belive it was during my third when the company that made it was bought out and the new owners discontinued it...And we had a really old version! I could of donated a better equipment that what we used in that module. Having said that, it wasn't all bad, there was a Pro Tools Studio we could use in the third year and a pretty nice logic set up that we got our hands on in the second and third years.


Quote Rousseau:


there are music tech degree courses that do not 'train' students to be sound engineers[...]there has been a fundamental shift from the corporate to the freelance; from the purpose built studio to the project studio; from the master of a single skill set to the versatile all-rounder.




This is why looking back I'm not so bothered about the old kit (still a bit miffed about the lack of time I got to play with it though). The course I did used PCs and MAC, Cubase, Logic Pro Tools and that other piece of crap I still can't remember the name of. It was broad, it was ment to teach you how to work stuff out yourself, instead of becoming a expert with Pro Tools I found methods for working out how to get what I want out of different systems. Which is very handy considering what I'm doing now.

Quote Handlestash:


The industry is so sterile now that the only sexy link in the whole chain seems to be the videos.
The rest of it just seems like an assembly line.




By the end of the course I came to realise that I didn't want to help other people make music, I just wanted to continue making my own. I didn't to run the risk of being a bit sick of music and not getting my own stuff done in the evening. I also found out that there were other who had far more talent, so I didn't want to flog a dead horse, I knew I would still have to go into the industry at the bottom of the pile, but knew that others were far better equipped to work their way up.

Fortunately the course was more of a multimedia tech course (with a heavy leaning towards the music side) and I found something else that I was pretty go at and pick modules accordingly. I'm now working towards being a film editor, I'm not doing it yet, but after doing some free work experience and making a few contacts I now have a job which will [/over optimism] could lead the job that I want to do in a few years. I don't have the expertise that the guys I'm directly working for have, but they seem to have faith that I can do whats required and are happy to teach me things as we go, I even tell them a thing or two every now and then

Students who don't full understand what the course is (I'll admit I was one) and don't accept the challange and less fun stuff is a problem and Unis giving false impressions of courses and the prospects at the end of them are a huge problem, they should be ashamed. I feel that goverment policy has to take a lot of the blame for this. Unis wouldn't need to mislead if they weren't under pressure to get 50% of the population through their door and if they weren't force to behave like a business and make money/break even. But I don't want to get to into that because I worry that I sound like some kind of anarco-socialist.

So, to sum up, a good course is worth taking, but only if you learn while you're doing the course so you can use it as an advantage over the other people scrabbling for the (seemingly) glamorous jobs in media be it music, film, journalism or whatever.

Phew, I'm glad that's over.

--------------------
www.myspace.com/jazzzombies


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Steve Hill
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Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #654615 - 08/09/08 07:19 PM
Not specific to music tech, but there's a good piece in today's Independent on the dumbing down of university degrees in general:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/higher/are-degrees-worth-the-p aper-theyre-printed-on-922410.html

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


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PaulD



Joined: 04/01/03
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Loc: Bristol UK
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: mrthingy]
      #654624 - 08/09/08 07:40 PM
Quote mrthingy:

I'm now working towards being a film editor... I don't have the expertise that the guys I'm directly working for have...


Hi
No fast-track easy option there, either.
Video editing is like producing music - but you don't get to have any say in the notes played or the instrumentation. or the key even.

You just get to spend weeks and weeks going over tens/hundreds of hours of random fragments of other people's moments....
And are expected to turn it all into a symphony or concerto full of viewer-wowing melody and rhythm - usually in less time than a musician will take to do the overture...

Most people (= nearly everyone) don't have the temperament, and dogged patience, to stick at it as a job, day-in day-out.

Learning the software is the easy bit.
Learning the craft skill-set is a different ball game.

Good luck!


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Ian Stewart



Joined: 24/10/05
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Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Steve Hill]
      #654660 - 08/09/08 08:56 PM
Quote Steve Hill:

Not specific to music tech, but there's a good piece in today's Independent on the dumbing down of university degrees in general:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/higher/are-degrees-worth-the-p aper-theyre-printed-on-922410.html




An excellent article that says it all.

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ceejay
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Joined: 17/04/03
Posts: 132
Loc: somewhere in Oz
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #654749 - 09/09/08 07:54 AM
Twenty years ago I hired an 18-year-old who'd done an SAE course 'cos I figured at least he'd know the basics. We pretty much had to teach him TV audio from scratch, then video editing.

Then he left and became apprentice jeweller.

Thirty years ago I hired a 17-year-old kid with no experience in anything much that the employment service said was a no-hoper and wouldn't amount to anything.

He's now an operations manager with a major television network.

It ain't about the education, it's about the person.


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table for two
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Joined: 24/03/02
Posts: 5901
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: Rousseau]
      #655223 - 10/09/08 11:59 AM
Quote Rousseau:

been on honeymoon these last few days.




Nice one R

Easiest way to keep our better half happy ... give her a cane to beat us with


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redleicester
active member


Joined: 24/10/03
Posts: 2484
Loc: England's green and pleasant l...
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? new [Re: table for two]
      #655231 - 10/09/08 12:24 PM
Quote table for two:

Quote Rousseau:

been on honeymoon these last few days.




Nice one R

Easiest way to keep our better half happy ... give her a cane to beat us with




Jesus, don't do that. She's scary. Not as scary as my wife granted, but the pair of them together.... oh dear god...

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Ars longa, vita brevis, occasio praeceps, experimentum periculosum, iudicium difficile.


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oggyb



Joined: 09/02/08
Posts: 1615
Loc: Leeds, UK
Re: anti music tech education = old gaurd mindstate? [Re: Joe_caithness]
      #655303 - 10/09/08 02:50 PM
I think the Guardian hasn't really given us any information we didn't already know. Some of the statistics are confusing and irellevant*, and the example of Katie Price was dreamed up on the spot by a bored clerical assistant.

Some of the comments made below the article, however, are very astute.


* There are now more than twice as many 25 year olds with degrees than there were 18-year-olds with A-levels 40 years ago.

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Composer;
www.ogonline.org


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