I could use some feedback on your experience about what type of live sound system works the best. I want to put together a system for a small jazz combo with vocals and the setups I can see would be -

1) mics & inst. into a mixer which feeds an amp which powers speakers.

2) mics & inst into a mixer which feeds self powered speakers.

3) mics & inst. into a powered mixer which powers speakers.

what are the pros & cons of these different types of setups? or does it really matter at all? cost and sound quality are my main concerns.
what works for you?
feedback greatly appreciated!

There's no real difference between a powered mixer and a seperate mixer and power amp. A powered mixer is just more convenient to carry around.

It's all down to budget, requirements and preference as to which you go for. For a small vocal system my current favourite is a pair of HK PR112 passive speakers and then a poweramp and mixer (if these are integrated as a powered mixer that makes no difference).

Others may favour something active like the Mackie SRM450. Personally I find these can be a little harsh, but they certainly make a lot of noise. There are lots of other actives around on the market. To be honest either would work well. Just make sure you listen to the system carefully before you buy.

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need to get rid of this stupid sig...

It's purely a matter of which combination suits your needs.

We use self-powered cabinets in our hire stocks as it reduces the amount of storage and shipping space, eliminates the mistake of not taking the amplifier to the job (believe me, it does happen), reduces the possibility of customer damage, and also means we only have to stock one cable type for both mics and signal between desk and speakers.

In addition, the guys out on site find it easier as there's no big heavy amp racks to cart about.

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Audio-Visual, Sound and Video Equipment Hire - www.pressred.biz

I like the small active stuff Mackie do. It's plently loud enough for a vocal PA for a rock band, and would do the job perfectly well as a vocal/solo PA for a jazz combo. They do tend to be a bit harsh, but this can be tamed with a bit of EQ on your desk if needs be. They are also extremely convenient because you don't need to carry seperate power amplifiers. Also, if you forget your desk for some reason or it breaks, you're not completely screwed cause you can still plug a vocal mic directly into the back.

I often use RCF/Mackie Art300's, but they have now been discontinued and the Mackie SRM450's are also excellent.

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stevebunting.comtotalproaudio.com

While I like the Mackie SRMs, it's also worth considering what happens if something goes wrong. With actives, if one of the amps goes there's not a lot you can do, but if you lose a channel on an amp there's there's generally a way round it.

Before shelling out for the Mackie SRMs (especially if you're looking at buying subs as well) take a look at the HK Elias or Lucas active systems.

I've just bought a HK Elias, ex Demo for just under £1800, and have been VERY pleased with it. Not only is it all wood (well hdf.. but still..no moulded plastic cabs here!) it's light weight, and each sub contains an additional amp to connect a passive monitor to if desired.

Admittedly, I haven't had long to test the system against the rigours of road life, but personally, £ for £ and for a 'two tops two subs system' the Elias wins hands down. I'll let you know if I do have any problems with it.

Take a look at the website
HK Audio.com
and don't let the pictures fool you, these tiny speakers move some real air!

Cheers

Neil

I've tried out one of the lucas systems, and your right for small speakers they don't half kick out some volume!!

plus... the sub is on wheels, and because the satellite speakers are powered off the main unit you only have to find one power socket (which is always a bonus in pubs)

I just bought a used HK audio LUCAS system that is 600 Watts.. it isn't the current LUCAS 600 but the original LUCAS system froma few years back which had a 15" bass woofer...

We just played it full blast today and it was LOUD!! I'm also a jazzy pianist type and its more than adequate for our needs... sure beats lugging around JBL and Peavey Hisys cabs like I used to do... moreover, its really clean sounding... great highs and awesome lows...

So compact too...

My system is this

HK AUDIO LUCAS ACTIVE PA system
Yamaha MG16-6FX mixer

Make sure you use balanced cables, as it makes a hell of a difference as I found today, when my sax player brought around his old crappy cable and the hiss was unbearable...

Quote Ste:

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I often use RCF/Mackie Art300's, but they have now been discontinued and the Mackie SRM450's are also excellent.

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RCFs sound great in an ice-rink....

Quote jimdrake:

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RCFs sound great in an ice-rink....

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As long as you've got a 10GW EV rig limited at about -20dBu to back it up, a mix position behind the drummer and a large amount of teenagers to 'appreciate' it

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stevebunting.comtotalproaudio.com

It's worth checking out the HK powered gear, although I've spent a bit of time using an Elias and grew to dislike slightly. I felt it sounded rather like it looked, lows and highs but not a great deal inbetween.

Nice portable system though.

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need to get rid of this stupid sig...

May I hi-jack the thread?

I'm thinking of getting a small powered-speaker PA for small ensemble use - especially classical guitar, lute and possibly vocals (though warbling women can usually belt it out, so its the guitar/lute that needs help).

I was thinking of the HK Lucas 600 or SRM450s and wondered what other systems should be on my short list to try. From the review in this month's SoS, I will probably add the Turbosound Q Light, though to be honest, it's a bit more than I would want to pay!

Any suggestions?

The Q light looks superb, but as you say it ain't cheap. You wouldn't need subs, but it's still about £3k for a couple of top boxes.

The SRM450 are a good speaker but are prone to being a little harsh. Since you're not talking about serious SPL or lots of bass I'd look at something like a pair of HK PR112 boxes.

They're not powered but sound nice with plenty of the clarity you're after. They're also a little less conspicuous than the SRM450

I'd go for these plus a desk and amp (maybe a powered mixer) rather than a Lucas simply because the lucas sub is a bit more bulky and probably won't do a great deal given the sound sources you're talking about. The PR112 still have a good bass response for lower notes.

The other big advantage is price, from Thomann you can get a pair of PR112 + mixer amp and stands for the same price as a pair of the mackies that then need a mixer as well.

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need to get rid of this stupid sig...

I've recently bought a 12 channel active yamaha desk with active DAS speakers. The sound quality is great and provides a total of 1000 watts, which is more than enough for bands in bars and small clubs. It is more convenient for self powered systems if you are constantly gigging.

"Yamaha MG16-6FX mixer"

I use this mixer, the only issue I have is the internal eq noise.

Keep in mind how you intend to route your system. For example, in larger venues where the mixing board is toward the back and/or side of the room (so as to hear the actual room mix), you'll use a couple of long XLR cables or something similar to route your left and right mixed-down signals to the power amp, which is usually next to the stage... this means only two wires (maybe 3 if you're sending it to a sub in addition to the power amp). Imagine, however, that you have 4 powered speakers instead... then you'd have to send speaker cables up there (4 speaker cables if you can't daisy chain from one speaker to the next). I honestly prefer the tried-and-true mixer, power amp, passive speakers (I do, however, like powered subs, because I can turn them on and leave them alone). Hope this helps!

Quote Sub1ime14:

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Keep in mind how you intend to route your system. For example, in larger venues where the mixing board is toward the back and/or side of the room (so as to hear the actual room mix), you'll use a couple of long XLR cables or something similar to route your left and right mixed-down signals to the power amp, which is usually next to the stage... this means only two wires (maybe 3 if you're sending it to a sub in addition to the power amp). Imagine, however, that you have 4 powered speakers instead... then you'd have to send speaker cables up there (4 speaker cables if you can't daisy chain from one speaker to the next). I honestly prefer the tried-and-true mixer, power amp, passive speakers (I do, however, like powered subs, because I can turn them on and leave them alone). Hope this helps!

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Not really the case...

If you're using an active system, virtually all work using balanced connectors between them and the signal. So standard mic cable is perfectly adequate, just as if you were sending signal to your power amps. So, in fact, you reduce the need for any lengths of expensive speaker cable.

I suspect what Sub1ime14 meant to say was that if using a powered mixer, you'd need to send long speaker cables to the front of the room...

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There's nothing we can't face... Except for bunnies

Mackie 450s or 1521's all the way. I use every type of pa every day and the only time the mackies can sound harsh is either when the contour switch is misused or they are being driven at mic level with a line level signal. I've had
lots of people complain at me, but they have always been misusing the gear.

Street price for 450s is 950-1000 and the 1530s can be got for £1000, woohoo!

Powered mixers are ok, but how much power are you losing to cable resistance? go find out... efficiency rules, and with active speakers you can recitify cone responce issues with the amplifiers output to get a more balanced sound.

Yep,

as Greg said, I´d go for the Mackie 1530.
We had 4 of them on a small club tour in february/march.
3-way, cristal clear sound and the best:

Thomann in Germany has a special offer: 750 € (yes Euro, not Pound)

... I hope you will invite me on a beer and a cigar one day