I'm currently in my last year of A levels (Studying theatre studies, maths and physics) and so am starting to look at what I want to do next.

I've been doing sounds at gigs (which i set up) for 2 years now and have done voluntary work backstage at my local theatre (the Hexagon) and am very interested in sound engineering (especially compared to all other courses available).

Does anyone have any thoughts on the subject or suggestions as to which courses are worth doing?

Thanks for your time
Ivo
x

As ED runs as fast as poss to try and close the floodgates that were just opened...........

back to topic!

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J90
Sonic Visions

Quote Ed_J90:

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As ED runs as fast as poss to try and close the floodgates that were just opened...........

back to topic!

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Nope - too late..... Ivan and The Byre are heading this way at the speed of light.

INCOMMMMMMMMING!

SAE is pretty good.

ken

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I'm All Ears.

LIPA is better.

Cheaper and less like a business, too.

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"He that hears music feels his solitude peopled at once." - Robert Browning

Hi Ivo,

welcome to the forums. I fear you are about to be deluged in a massive thread on the cons (and maybe a few pros) about audio courses.

It might be easier if you do a search to find similar thread -- they happen frequenctly and the same people make the same noises fairly consistently There was a very good and long one about this very subject recently...

There are a few good and worthwhile courses that deliver good results, including (but not limited to) the Tonmeister course at Guildford (surrey uni) and LIPA. With a science background in your A levels, I'd recommend doing a more technical degree at a long established university.

I wouldn't personally recommend SAE, because I've found them too variable and inconsistent, and the content too limited in fundamental principles.

Personally, I would recommend some form of a traditional engineering degree -- electronics, computing, (proper) audio engineering. My argument for it is that you will be more employable and have a far wider range of skills and understanding to enable you to develop your audio interests in any direction you care to go. Vocational music technology courses are very narrow and the prospects aren't really that good.

Hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Look up David Mellor I learned alot from him... and NO not that Old politician guy....

I went to the city of westminster college in London back in 1991 it gave me something I could never pay for !!!!

I was 16 and didnt see how lucky I was to get into the place 180 applicants and 20 places was all they gave....all I knew in my mind was I was gonna be the guitarist in whitesnake and didnt take much in haha silly me

Got job in top london studio and worked up and learned along the way (you never stop learning)

All I will say is the world and the world of audio has changed, do a search as Rob said....

Seek and you shall find

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J90
Sonic Visions

I shan't get involved in this one. But - do a search of these forums - I think you'll see what a sorry state the industry is in. Be very very careful about getting involved in college courses - a sure fire way to get £20k of debt and an education worth absolutely nothing.

Quote Hugh Robjohns:

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Hi Ivo,

welcome to the forums. I fear you are about to be deluged in a massive thread on the cons (and maybe a few pros) about audio courses.

It might be easier if you do a search to find similar thread -- they happen frequenctly and the same people make the same noises fairly consistently There was a very good and long one about this very subject recently...

There are a few good and worthwhile courses that deliver good results, including (but not limited to) the Tonmeister course at Guildford (surrey uni) and LIPA. With a science background in your A levels, I'd recommend doing a more technical degree at a long established university.

I wouldn't personally recommend SAE, because I've found them too variable and inconsistent, and the content too limited in fundamental principles.

Personally, I would recommend some form of a traditional engineering degree -- electronics, computing, (proper) audio engineering. My argument for it is that you will be more employable and have a far wider range of skills and understanding to enable you to develop your audio interests in any direction you care to go. Vocational music technology courses are very narrow and the prospects aren't really that good.

Hugh

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Hugh is SUCH a gentleman.
I think it comes from his years at the Beeb Beeb Ceeb.

*sigh*

(my catchphrase of the week)

P.S. As it happens I am starting a residential school in northern France which will combine all the best elements of live and recorded sound.
Modules will include ligging, scrounging gaffer off the band and of course the essential microphone theft module.
Fees are a surprisingly reasonable £10,000 for a full B.Mus.Tech awarded by the University of Bangalore (Birmingham Central Campus) and are issued on the first day of your first term, following payment of all feees for the full 4 year course in advance.
In cash.
Saves time over doing the full 4 yeasrs first, so you can get straight into the job market!

If you wish to continue in your quest for knowledge we also offer a complementary (NOTE: NOT complimentary - it costs.) non-accredited course in Producing 101.
Covers such crucial aspects as:

Why it is safer for A&R men to always say no.

How to con record companies into giving you an advance.
How to spend it and how to disappear without a trace once the money is gone.
Blagging - a beginners guide to exaggerating your own importance.

Our expert staff will always be on hand to help with the financial aspects of your course at all times, or at least for the first week or until the cheques are all cashed.


Bandwidth? What bandwidth?

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Me? But I`m such a loveable old bugger!

If you are doing live sound for bands and working in a home studio then apart from reading everything available and networking with fellow audio people and musicians then you are doing much better than you would be if you were to do one of the 'courses' on offer.
As suggested, do a real degree is something useful like engineering or computer science and take the years you will be studying to think of a great business idea that will allow you do work with audio.

Cue the 'exceptions to the rule' self-starters who did a course and are now flourishing in the industry. Think about that - what do the _majority_ of people from these courses (there are tens of thousands floating around) end up doing? Most of them sure aren't working in studios, or producing.
Real study, and spend the difference you would have spent on a 'school' of production getting yourself a basic setup and start producing. Don't forget to network.
Now go ahead and ignore me, prove me wrong - still, I'll always think that your (or your parents) money could be much better spent than as a down payment to a certain gentlemans' next Porche.

Quote Ed_J90:

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I went to the city of westminster college in London back in 1991 it gave me something I could never pay for !!!!

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Gonorrhea?



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http://soundcloud.com/anthony-wall/sets/audio-reel
http://songsforvoiceandpiano.com/

I'm with Hugh here - get something marketable as a qualification with a good dose of fundamentals and throw yourself into extra-curriculars. An ounce of practice is worth a ton of theory, but without that theory your horizons are unnecessarily restricted.

Quote Handlestash:

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Quote Ed_J90:

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I went to the city of westminster college in London back in 1991 it gave me something I could never pay for !!!!

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Gonorrhea?

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That too :D

this is back when it wasnt flooded by people and colleges and it could actually help you get on in the world....

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J90
Sonic Visions

So which way did you decide to go in the end - pimp or drug dealer?

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Me? But I`m such a loveable old bugger!

God, I must be crazy to suggest this but :

BUY A COPY OF S.O.S. !

Every organisation that is worth bothering with, advertise their courses in the back pages.

It is in effect a ready made google search, all there in print, just waiting for you to dial a number or send an email to.....

Quote Scope:

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God, I must be crazy to suggest this but :

BUY A COPY OF S.O.S. !

Every organisation that is worth bothering with, advertise their courses in the back pages.

It is in effect a ready made google search, all there in print, just waiting for you to dial a number or send an email to.....

---

What's SOS?

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http://soundcloud.com/anthony-wall/sets/audio-reel
http://songsforvoiceandpiano.com/

Quote Handlestash:

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Quote Scope:

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God, I must be crazy to suggest this but :

BUY A COPY OF S.O.S. !

Every organisation that is worth bothering with, advertise their courses in the back pages.

It is in effect a ready made google search, all there in print, just waiting for you to dial a number or send an email to.....

---

What's SOS?

---

School of Sound. Currently Enrolling.

ken

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I'm All Ears.

Quote Ken Long:

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Quote Handlestash:

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Quote Scope:

---

God, I must be crazy to suggest this but :

BUY A COPY OF S.O.S. !

Every organisation that is worth bothering with, advertise their courses in the back pages.

It is in effect a ready made google search, all there in print, just waiting for you to dial a number or send an email to.....

---

What's SOS?

---

School of Sound. Currently Enrolling.

ken

---

Very Swiss Tony, Ken.

You know 'Stash, Reading Sound on Sound magazine is very much like...

--------------------
http://soundcloud.com/anthony-wall/sets/audio-reel
http://songsforvoiceandpiano.com/

.. a box of chocolats. You never know what you gawn git!.

ken

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I'm All Ears.

making love to a box of chocolates. ahhhhh.....

Quote Ken Long:

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.. a box of chocolats. You never know what you gawn git!.

ken

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A sticky chap I would think.

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http://soundcloud.com/anthony-wall/sets/audio-reel
http://songsforvoiceandpiano.com/

Lovely. I think we're about done here.

Quote Deirdrie's Cat:

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Lovely. I think we're about done here.

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Thgis has recently become a fashionable thing to add to a thread.
Anyone care to enlighten me as to why?

Seems a little un-egalitarian to me...

Especially if you are the only one who actually thinks a thread is ripe for finishing.

Personally, I find this exploration of the exciting possibilities of further adult education in the field of sound recording and production to be endlessly fascinating.

Let`s continue.

P.S. My other hobby is flagellating deceased equestrian quadrupeds

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Me? But I`m such a loveable old bugger!

Quote IvanSC:

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Quote Deirdrie's Cat:

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Lovely. I think we're about done here.

---

Thgis has recently become a fashionable thing to add to a thread.
Anyone care to enlighten me as to why?

Seems a little un-egalitarian to me...

Especially if you are the only one who actually thinks a thread is ripe for finishing.

Personally, I find this exploration of the exciting possibilities of further adult education in the field of sound recording and production to be endlessly fascinating.

Let`s continue.

P.S. My other hobby is flagellating deceased equestrian quadrupeds

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Edit:

I don't think we're about done here.

In a similar vain to the opening post I'm thinking of doing a masters course in audio production. Glamorgan's MSc in Advanced Music Production and Bournemouth's MA in Radio Production both stand out at the moment.

I've somehow got it in my head that I'd love to be an SM for BBC Radio 3 and have a few contacts there. I'm waiting to hear back from them on this topic but in the meanwhile any input from you guys would be useful. Hugh... any thoughts as a previous BBC employee?

So... Masters or Business loan?

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www.allyle.co.uk

Quote Aliweasel:

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In a similar vain to the opening post I'm thinking of doing a masters course in audio production. Glamorgan's MSc in Advanced Music Production and Bournemouth's MA in Radio Production both stand out at the moment.

I've somehow got it in my head that I'd love to be an SM for BBC Radio 3 and have a few contacts there. I'm waiting to hear back from them on this topic but in the meanwhile any input from you guys would be useful. Hugh... any thoughts as a previous BBC employee?

So... Masters or Business loan?

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it gobsmacks me that some of these courses offer bachelors and masters of SCIENCE. The level of maths is at most up to A-level....possibly 1st year degree.....

Quote Deirdrie's Cat:

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Quote IvanSC:

---

Quote Deirdrie's Cat:

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Lovely. I think we're about done here.

---

Thgis has recently become a fashionable thing to add to a thread.
Anyone care to enlighten me as to why?

Seems a little un-egalitarian to me...

Especially if you are the only one who actually thinks a thread is ripe for finishing.

Personally, I find this exploration of the exciting possibilities of further adult education in the field of sound recording and production to be endlessly fascinating.

Let`s continue.

P.S. My other hobby is flagellating deceased equestrian quadrupeds

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Edit:

I don't think we're about done here.

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(aren`t we naughty?! I am expecting the mods to pounce any second!)

OOTP:

Nobody has enrolled in my audio school yet so I am offering a 2.5% discount for early enrollers who pay all their fees up front.
For the whole 2 year course.

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Me? But I`m such a loveable old bugger!

Quote Deirdrie's Cat:

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Lovely. I think we're about done here.

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Aw, precious...

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http://soundcloud.com/anthony-wall/sets/audio-reel
http://songsforvoiceandpiano.com/

Quote Aliweasel:

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I've somehow got it in my head that I'd love to be an SM for BBC Radio 3 and have a few contacts there. I'm waiting to hear back from them on this topic but in the meanwhile any input from you guys would be useful. Hugh... any thoughts as a previous BBC employee?

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I can't imagine a masters degree would open the door any wider for you, I'm afraid. SM recruitment is at an all time low in network radio, and traditionally they seek arts graduates that are trainable with a view to becomming producers in the long term, rather than tech heads. And experience of trying to re-train those taken on from media production courses has not been good...

Your inside contacts will be infinitely more useful and productive than a masters, in my humble opinion. And you'd probably be better off looking at joining World Service as an SM -- they have more consistent recruitment, and after a year or three you could move internally to network radio if you wanted to (and an opening came up).

Hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Quote:

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it gobsmacks me that some of these courses offer bachelors and masters of SCIENCE. The level of maths is at most up to A-level....possibly 1st year degree.....

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So a masters in physics/maths would be a better investment? I have a 2:1 in Music from Bristol and two years experience running the studio at a school but I'd like to make more recordings and/or play more music. Is the concensus still that any business you get is the business you make for yourself?

Lord knows I can't stay at the school another year as I'm bouncing off the walls with boredom and restriction. Any constructive input?

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www.allyle.co.uk

Quote narcoman:

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The level of maths is at most up to A-level....possibly 1st year degree.....

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There is no maths at all in many of them, and very little science...

hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Just seen your post, Hugh.

I thought that would be the case and I have applied a couple of times to join the World Service as an SM but no luck so far. Keep on slogging is the only solution I guess...

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www.allyle.co.uk

Quote narcoman:

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The level of maths is at most up to A-level....possibly 1st year degree.....

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Isn't that the same thing nowadays?

Quote Aliweasel:

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So a masters in physics/maths would be a better investment?

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In terms of earning potential and career options, almost certainly yes... but then you'd need a first degree in physics and maths, so it's not an option is it! The (off-topic) point Narcoman was making was simply that many universities are awarding BScs for music tech-related courses when there is barely any science involved in them, which potentially weakens the value of the BSc degree conceptually.

Quote:

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Is the concensus still that any business you get is the business you make for yourself?

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It has certainly worked for many people...

Hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Good point about not having a science BSc!

Anyone want to open a studio with me then?

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www.allyle.co.uk

Thanks for all your help (everybody, especially Hugh).

I don't have the money for SAE or the musical skill (or A level) for the Tonmeister in Guildford.
However the sound technology course at LIPA looks very interesting.

As for doing a traditional engineering degree, I'd hate to spend 3-4 years and £20k+ studying something I wasn't interested in (especially as without the interest I wouldn't have the drive to do the work).

I've been looking at Audio Engineering degrees recently and prefer the idea of them to a normal music tech one as I like the idea of learning about acoustics and the like on top of the studio and live mixing.

And I'm aware that jobs in the music business are increasingly hard to get but I figure that without some kind of course there'll be no chance of getting one (and simply having a degree - even from an ex-polytechnic - will help me finding any job if I can't find anything I want to do in the music business).

Please put me right on anything as I still don't know much about this and any further advise would be great.

Thanks for all the help again
Ivo
x

Quote Ivo Alexander:

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Thanks for all your help (everybody, especially Hugh).

I don't have the money for SAE or the musical skill (or A level) for the Tonmeister in Guildford.
However the sound technology course at LIPA looks very interesting.

As for doing a traditional engineering degree, I'd hate to spend 3-4 years and £20k+ studying something I wasn't interested in (especially as without the interest I wouldn't have the drive to do the work).

I've been looking at Audio Engineering degrees recently and prefer the idea of them to a normal music tech one as I like the idea of learning about acoustics and the like on top of the studio and live mixing.

And I'm aware that jobs in the music business are increasingly hard to get but I figure that without some kind of course there'll be no chance of getting one (and simply having a degree - even from an ex-polytechnic - will help me finding any job if I can't find anything I want to do in the music business).

Please put me right on anything as I still don't know much about this and any further advise would be great.

Thanks for all the help again
Ivo
x

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I understand the "wanting to do something you like" - but that's not really the real world. It's a little like - "I want to be an astronaut". Fair enough - you like music nd recording. But the earning world isn't really how you think it is!!

As for doing this job (well - mine) you certainly do NOT need a music related degree. My background is Maths & Physics with a lot of IT thrown in for good measure. I wasn't particularly interested in it - but I was good at it and , whilst I couldn't earn from music, it set me up to earn very well in various jobs afterwards. All the while at Uni - I was working on records with other acts. Then I had a lucky break - that explains why I do what I do!! I know a few "music engineering" graduates working well in the industry - but they tend to be from LIPA (or similar) and they are in the minority and I can think of none that earn more than the equally few lucky teach yourself brigade! Generally they are working in classical and/or film recording areas (which I also do). The guys I know who are working in rock/pop circle pretty much all taught themselves or were interns for many years. No audio grads I'm afraid. And none in my staff - either full time or part time/ freelance.

I'm afraid doing an audio engineering course (or similar) even up to SAE is going to do you absolutely no good in gaining employment in this business - simply because it's nearly all freelance and really is a bit of a "who you know" network. Id suggest a more practical university education and do this in your spare time - that way you have "something to fall back on". The decision you make now will affect the rest of your life - and it is this high earning professionals opinion that you'd be setting yourself on a sorry road indeed if you limit your potential by doing an "audio engineering" or other studio related course when it simply isn't a viable or safe career apart from the very very very lucky few. Warning over.....

To add about the third potentially useful response to this thread, BSc Audio Technology at the University of Salford.

http://www.salford.ac.uk/course-finder/course/31

I'll agree that if you want to 'be a sound engineer' and that's the be-all and end-all then a university course isn't the way to go about it, but having done the course I know that the guys at Salford will tell you that anyway.

However, if you've got what it takes to do a science-based degree (some pretty heavy maths later on too, but they do ease you into it) and you want to spend three or four years totally immersed in the subject you love (as well as enjoying the other trappings of student life) I say go for it.

The bonus I found with Salford was their ties to industry (there's the option of doing a year's paid industrial placement IIRC) - other folks from my year are currently working with Bang & Olufsen, Nokia, Amena, Harmen Karden as well as various acoustic consultancies etc. I can't recommend it enough, but it depends what you want to get out at the end of it. If you want to be an engineer in a recording studio, get a job as a tea boy and a big loan to live on NOW, and in four years you'll probably be better of than those who went to uni with the same goal.

OK, my initial post was in jest. SAE is not really value for money and you won't learn anything you couldn't learn by immersing yourself in the literature.

If you have some basic knowledge and thrive to learn then you could always teach yourself. The theory and understanding is paramount to the application in most situations.

However, if you are keen on doing a degree and expect to be employed in the music business at the end of it, I would recommend you re-assess. As you have mentioned, you need to make your own work and finding that work is a job all its own. It takes contacts, connections and most importantly determination.

As such, I would recommend you do a degree which will cover a wider range of professions but will also contribute to your understanding of audio. Business, electrician, law are some examples. That way, you can always fall back on something should you fail to get in the industry.

I speak from experience of being self employed in a cut throat industry that has forced me to diversify into areas of audio I wouldn't have considered before. I also realise that I may be forced out of a saturated market soon and regret not having that cushion to fall back on.

my 2¢ anyway.

ken

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I'm All Ears.

Quote Hugh Robjohns:

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Quote narcoman:

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The level of maths is at most up to A-level....possibly 1st year degree.....

---

There is no maths at all in many of them, and very little science...

hugh

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NOT true with the BSc Audio Tech I mentioned earlier, I should point out. Imaginary numbers, integrations and differentiations aplenty, as well as heavy, HEAVY acoustics and electronics theory.

Us audio graduates aren't a bunch of decadent, know-nothing n'er-do-wells, you know