Thanks Hollowsun, would you care to upload some similar length samples with various combinations to show me how it should be done?
Ciao
Geoffrey

Hi Hugh,
Thanks for the time you have taken to add comment.
Of course you are correct that the MP3 encoding more or less destroys the intention, unfortunately the alternatives would not be usable for a wide audience.
What I would say is that sound samples in general are of such poor quality that in my humble belief there is still some improvement, OK I know you don't agree.
You mentioned the string section of the Bach being overwhelming, don't you perhaps agree that in that situation the woodwind and brass are accompanying and strings are predominent by definition of the orchestra of the day?
Incidentally I do love E. European string sections, in a concert situation one seems to hear all the string players not just the front desks and the others fading into the distance.
Talk to you later.
Regards
Geoffrey

Quote lazinov:

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Thanks Hollowsun, would you care to upload some similar length samples with various combinations to show me how it should be done?

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Not my own work (I am not a classical music recording engineer by trade ... although I have been involved in them in the past) but I would rather listen to THIS RECORDING of the Dvorak.

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Website / Music Lab Machines / Blog

Quote lazinov:

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Hello Ivan SC

To provide some substantial samples for a wide audience I could frankly see no alternative, the files are quite big as is. I will look at the possibility you suggested

’Trying to work with you on this one’. Thanks


If you will excuse me, for the moment, I will not itemise the equipment used, things are nice and peaceful now - later.

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Just moved to the Czech Republic from near to Albi by the way. Where are you located in France?

Regards
Geoffrey

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The file hosting on here is pretty easy going, so fill your boots - big files hold no fear for most of us on here especially wavs, as they are a sort of common currency al of us can use.

I currently have two houses in the southern part of the Morbihan, one in Malansac and one next door in Rochefort en Terre.
Starting renting them out to tourists in earnest after this year`s test flights went sucessfully.
Also (with Heart in mouth) cautiously starting to look for number three ready for when we sell the house in the UK and finally pay off our mortgqge and move permanently. Can`t wait.
How come the Czech republic?
I was involved with a guy called Steve Popovich in the USA who started Meatloaf`s first label but he disappeared off to the Czech Republic at the time of the breakup of the Soviet Union in search of his family, Never did find out what happened - might google him and see.

Dern! Just googled him and read about his fight against Sony-BMG.

Such a cool guy and with so much trouble in his life.
He deserves better.

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Me? But I`m such a loveable old bugger!

Quote lazinov:

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Of course you are correct that the MP3 encoding more or less destroys the intention, unfortunately the alternatives would not be usable for a wide audience.

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The majority have access to broadband these days, and so full quality wav files would not trouble most (especially if you limit the examples to shorter durations). But if you still feel the file sizes too big, then FLAC is a lossless alternative that works well and most serious audio folk will be able to deal with it. Failing that, MP3 isn't that bad if used carefully and with a rate of not less than 320kb/s.

Quote:

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What I would say is that sound samples in general are of such poor quality that in my humble belief there is still some improvement, OK I know you don't agree.

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Check out the sound samples posted on the mains SOS website to support feature articels and reviews. MP3s are capable of acceptable quality if done properly,and people seem quite happy to download full wav files if the material warrants it.

Quote:

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You mentioned the string section of the Bach being overwhelming, don't you perhaps agree that in that situation the woodwind and brass are accompanying and strings are predominent by definition of the orchestra of the day?

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I appreciate the scored requirements for the musical balance of the various orchestral departments. For me -- although it was difficult to hear clearly as we have all already discussed -- the problem was a combination of the strings being too loud relative to the supporting woodwind and brass, but also in too close a perspective.

Yes, naturally you would expect the strings at the front and the woods and brass behind... but as far as I could tell, it sounded to me like the main pair was too low and too close to the conductor, and as a result the perspective was distorted beyond what I would consider a 'natural presentation' The strings sounded too clean dry and detailed, while the wood and brass were too distant and lacking clarity.

All personal opinions, obviously, and as I said, possibly not an entirely fair view because most of the strengths of the stereo pair approach were stripped out by the MP3 coding.

But this is the classic problem of a single pair recording. it is often impossible -- especially with a large orchestral ensemble -- to find a position where all departments are captured adequately, and that's why the industry has gradually developed the use of additional mics to help restore a more acceptable balance for the home listener.

Obviously, there are numerous cases where the additional mics have been taken to extremes and a balance 'created' rather than 'captured' -- but that is as unacceptable to most people as the simple stsreo mic would be... depending on the circumstances (there are film soundtrack sores that would not work if recorded in any other way, for example).

hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Quote lazinov:

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You mentioned the string section of the Bach being overwhelming, don't you perhaps agree that in that situation the woodwind and brass are accompanying and strings are predominent by definition of the orchestra of the day?

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Not really as the string sections would have been much smaller in Bach's day, as would the choirs and organs of course.
However until the early music movement the string sections were too big for Bach's music although the string section on your recording wasn't so big.

Had fun trying to get at the mp3 as six times I was told I had won an Audi A3 except once when a back view of a girl bending down wearing only a string appeared. As I am married and can't drive neither were of interest to me.

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No longer a forum member.

fine recordings from what I can tell in all there MP3 glory. However, even listening through that, they suffer from two things:

smeary centre and - the main thing - dodgy bits of playing. Not loads of it, but great for a live performance. My issue is that when I buy a CD - i am not buying a live performance , more I'm buying a great performance of the PIECE. Or at least that's what I want. As mentioned, the work I do with Naxos invariably involves single take stuff - but this isn't ONLY take stuff. Believe me, we get through many takes and pick the best - or rather keep going until the concensus is "woohoo".

Despite that - I liked your recordings.... just can't help thinking it would have been better served even with the addition of that centre mic in a Decca tree arrangement - unless you're now going to tell me that;s what you did!


Oh - and just for me - all feels a bit smashed into my face.....

Quote narcoman:

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Oh - and just for me - all feels a bit smashed into my face.....

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That was what struck me most.

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Website / Music Lab Machines / Blog

Quote hollowsun:

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Quote narcoman:

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Oh - and just for me - all feels a bit smashed into my face.....

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That was what struck me most.

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For me though that is the 60s recording sound. Remember all those MOR records where it sounded as if the xylophone was pressed against your teeth?

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No longer a forum member.

Good morning everyone,

When stereo was first introduced we were all amused and amazed by hearing puff puffs and ping pong balls. The classical recordings that followed, in the early days, sometimes seemed to have had the two channels recorded on different days, just to emphasize the stereo effect.
But, when considering a concert hall situation the bulk of sound emanates from center, radiating out to left and right.
I have long held the belief that in a domestic environment the loudspeakers should be placed centrally with an approximate 45-degree angle, depending on room depth. In that configuration the reproduction of sound would more reflect the original situation.
Lowther, at one time, did manufacture a twin, folded-horn cabinet housing both left and right loudspeakers, the high frequencies being directed by a Perspex reflector mounted on the top. Middle and bass, which is of course less directional, was directed 90 degrees left and right.
The idea did not achieve much success, which is probably due to the feeling that there was no left and right.
Putting it bluntly the orchestra is not divided into two groups on either side of the stage and stereo is simply a crude representation.
When we refer to ‘middle’ we are speaking of an illusion because there would normally be a hole in the middle with a straightforward left and right sound. Sorry I am beginning to sound as though I am trying to teach my grandmother how to, etc.
You are all aware of the reality of it all.

Now to the criticism of my recordings.

The first, very valid one, relates to the MP3 process. It does not do justice, some might say it is probably improving my recordings – I anticipate that potential response.
My intention is to take some time to create some shorter FLAC’s. When it is finally done I will invite you all again.

My quest is to offer a natural sound, sorry I know you find that combination of words offensive, when I recorded the live concerts, there were different standards of playing and because I was brought up on live music I automatically accept performance imperfections, in fact if there were constant retakes to achieve near perfections I could not accept that as natural – the performers are human.

Middle sound, briefly referred to above, is manipulated, as is the balancing of the orchestra.
Once again the process to ‘even’ the orchestra does not reflect the natural sound. In a concert hall the strings are nearer to the audience, in the conventional configuration, and even if the woodwind, brass and percussion are more powerful there remains that effect of being more distant. I do not deny that my recordings could be said to be string heavy, I would not be disappointed to have that suggestion directed at me.

One or two members stated, quote, ‘all feels a bit smashed into my face’.
I imagine that the first sample heard was the RFH organ; it opens ff and could come as a bit of a shock. Maybe that effect remained with you otherwise I confess not to really understand how, for example the trio could have such an effect, or even the Bach Orchestra, which is very bright I know, but it really was very bright in the live environment.

Must go, talk to you all again later. Thank you all for your interest and comments, which I take very seriously, knowing from whence they came.

Have a good weekend. Regards
Geoffrey

Quote lazinov:

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I have long held the belief that in a domestic environment the loudspeakers should be placed centrally with an approximate 45-degree angle, depending on room depth. In that configuration the reproduction of sound would more reflect the original situation.

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So all the room reflections you recorded in the concert space would now eminate from the centre of the listener's room? Sounds fundamentally flawed to me and not at all reflective of the original situation. If you recorded the instruments bone dry then I could go with it, but that would defeat the object, surely? At that point you're closer to a mono recording.

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An Eagle for an Emperor, A Kestrel for a Knave.

Quote lazinov:

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Good morning everyone,

When stereo was first introduced we were all amused and amazed by hearing puff puffs and ping pong balls. The classical recordings that followed, in the early days, sometimes seemed to have had the two channels recorded on different days, just to emphasize the stereo effect.
But, when considering a concert hall situation the bulk of sound emanates from center, radiating out to left and right.
I have long held the belief that in a domestic environment the loudspeakers should be placed centrally with an approximate 45-degree angle, depending on room depth. In that configuration the reproduction of sound would more reflect the original situation.

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I'm no expert in wave theory but having the speakers in the centre doesn't make any sense to me. you'd be listening to reflections from the walls which would colour the sound immensly. Stereo recordings are based on time of arrival, i.e your brain perceives the differences in the time that a wave hits your ears and your can hear a sound coming from a specific spot. If you change the layout of the speakers you will change this effect. From a practical point it's obvious in a stereo recording which sounds are coming from the centre and which are coming from the sides. Rather than being a crude representation I acutally thinks it's very clever.

Hello Ivan SC,
Sorry to be so long getting back to you.
Just wanted to say that we lived in France for nearly 4 years, on the surface everything was OK and we had no problems but certainly I heard that the French don't like the British, it is said that God laid down the English Channel to keep the British and Frech apart.
We also rented out and I know that the locals didn't like to see us profiting from France. Nevertheless I wish you all the best.The move to the Czech Republic was because my wife is Czech and she has a big family here. In addition we have a much better standard of living here than we could hope to enjoy in the UK.
Kind regards
Geoffrey

My two penn'orth is this:

The BBC, long (rightly) regarded as exemplars of musically literate sound techniques, routinely broadcast dynamic ranges of 22dB on serious music, long before the days of Optimod. This was done by trained balancers with manual fader work and a score - and scarcely anybody ever noticed because it was done right.

I have just finished mastering a recording of a live concert (two opera singers, a piano, lots of chat). This took many, many hours of fine editing, remixing, Retouching, God knows what else, in order to present an experience in sound only as close as possible to the that which the audience had on the night. No, the two things are not, cannot be, the same, but then neither are a book and the film of the book. The idea is to translate the essence of the experience into a different medium.

I just paid £2 for a D.G compact disc from a charity shop yesterday.

It was something I really wanted - so gave the guy £4 - 'cos it just made me think. £2! - for a great work of art that I could take home and listen to as many times as I liked - in pristine digital quality - for TWO POUNDS! You cant get ten fags for that!

NO ONE HAS TAKEN ANY MUSIC AWAY!!!

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Quote lazinov:

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When we refer to ‘middle’ we are speaking of an illusion because there would normally be a hole in the middle with a straightforward left and right sound.

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You are quite right in that 'stereo' from two loudspeakers is an illusion, and not all of the population fall for it. Estimates suggest about 2% of the population just don't get any impression of imaging between the speakers at all (and they are all women in my experience ). But the theory of how it works is well documented starting from Mr Blumlein's pioneering work, and the optimal angle for the speakers is 30 degrees either side of the centre axis, forming an equalateral triangle of speakers and listener.

Quote:

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some might say it is probably improving my recordings

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Improving? No -- a typo there I hope. The heavy MP3 coding has destroyed your recordings.

Quote:

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My quest is to offer a natural sound, sorry I know you find that combination of words offensive

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Not offensive, but inherently open to a personal subjective interpretation, and views obviously differ greatly.

Quote:

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I was brought up on live music I automatically accept performance imperfections.

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Of course -- there is no other way. But a live perdormance is a one-off experience, and passing imperfections are easily accepted. A recording, in contrast, can be listened to over and over again -- indeed, that is the whole point of a recording -- and as such imperfections that might be comfortably tolerated in a live performance become far more obvious, significant and ultimately annoying or distracting.

As a result, recordings generally involve edits to remove the less acceptable performance flaws that will inevitably crop up. Personally, I favour the 'editing to save a performance, not to create one' approach... but I have worked on sessions where the recording was effectively created by serious editing within virtually every bar -- and at the direction of the musician(s) involved, because they wanted the recording to represent what they considered to be a 'perfect performance.'

Quote:

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Once again the process to ‘even’ the orchestra does not reflect the natural sound. In a concert hall the strings are nearer to the audience, in the conventional configuration, and even if the woodwind, brass and percussion are more powerful there remains that effect of being more distant.

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While this is patently true, the human experience of listening in a hall is a very different one to listening on a hifi. The eyes help to explain and condition what the ears are hearing, and the reflected sounds in the hall also add to the acoustical information available there -- but not at home listening to the hifi.

The often suggested premise that we have two ears, so two microphones should be enough is inherently flawed. Microphones are not the same as ears, do not capture sounds in the same way, and presentation of that sound over loudspeakers does not and can not replicate the hall sound.

Binaural recordings -- listened to over headphones -- can work much better in these respects, but we are taking about loudspeaker reproduction and in that sitation I do not accept that the two mic approach is capable ~in all circumstances~ of delivering the sound that most people perceive as a 'natural' orchcestral balance.

Quote:

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One or two members stated, quote, ‘all feels a bit smashed into my face’.

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I think they were referring to the perception that the perspectives were very close. This is a common trait of heavy MP3 coding, which tends to remove a lot of low level acoustic information and reverb -- and hence difficult to judge from your demos. Better quality samples would enable a more constructive debate and I look forward to that.

Hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Quote Hugh Robjohns:

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Of course -- there is no other way. But a live perdormance is a one-off experience, and passing imperfections are easily accepted. A recording, in contrast, can be listened to over and over again -- indeed, that is the whole point of a recording -- and as such imperfections that might be comfortably tolerated in a live performance become far more obvious, significant and ultimately annoying or distracting.

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That is the crux of matter Hugh and a concept that the OP, and the now departed wise man, just cannot accept, which is their choice of course.

However regarding saving a performance rather than creating one that does not concern me so much, its only the final recording that matters to me. Not being a recording engineering myself I have to say how it was achieved is of practically no interest to me, any more than I am interested in the coding algorithms used in my digital effects unit.

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No longer a forum member.

Hi Hollowsun
I've now had an opportunity to play through the samply you so kindly provided.
We certainly have totally different taste as regards sound.
If I might be so bold, my own feeling was that the sound was completely unnatural. I think that if I did not know the piece it would be difficult to believe that it was played by a piano trio, sounding more like a chamber orchestra, far too rich.
The reverberation is also too much sounding as though it was played in a huge tube.
The playing could not be criticised in any way, however, the question is how many takes and edits were required?
I can imagine that if you are used to listening to that particular recording, on first play of my sample, you would have difficulty in accpeting such a different sound. however, if you play it several times you might even come to like it and appreciate the more realistic sound.
Kind regards
Geoffey

Quote lazinov:

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Hi Hollowsun
I've now had an opportunity to play through the samply you so kindly provided.
We certainly have totally different taste as regards sound.
If I might be so bold, my own feeling was that the sound was completely unnatural. I think that if I did not know the piece it would be difficult to believe that it was played by a piano trio, sounding more like a chamber orchestra, far too rich.
The reverberation is also too much sounding as though it was played in a huge tube.
The playing could not be criticised in any way, however, the question is how many takes and edits were required?
I can imagine that if you are used to listening to that particular recording, on first play of my sample, you would have difficulty in accpeting such a different sound. however, if you play it several times you might even come to like it and appreciate the more realistic sound.
Kind regards
Geoffey

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...and that is why there is chocolate and vanilla.

At the risk of opening old wounds here, there has to be room for all opinions and you are sort of sliding back into that "you must accept I am right" mode.
Personally I think it`s time for you to just accept that we all have different perceptions of what sounds "right" and nobody`s opinion is any more or less valid than any other.

FWIW I didn`t like either your or HS`s examples that much, but once again we are talking mp3`s so who can really tell anything?

please take this in the spirit in which it is offered.

Ivan

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Me? But I`m such a loveable old bugger!

Hi, I listened to the Opera link and it sounded like I think you intended it to, pretty much how you would expect a stereo pair to sound. One thing I found disconcerting was how the voice moves around. Without being able to see the people moving it feels odd to hear them moving about, especially when they walk further away from the mics. Some of the instruments also over power at times but this is probably how it would sound in the hall. There is also a lot of coughing and page turning which is distracting.

I listened to the dumky czech trio and it sounds like they've been close mic'd and hard panned. The piano is almost hard left and the violin and cello are hard right this doesn't sound natural to me. Maybe there needs to be more room sound to blend the sounds together. The piano seems to sound nice and lush but the strings sound a bit dry and exposed, they sound as if they are a lot closer to the listener than the piano, were they? I thought both the strings sounded good as did the piano but they didn't sound like they were recorded in the same place.

I quite liked the naturalness of the sounds but as posted above it's certainly more suited to certain applications than others. I think a string orchestra in a big hall would sound lovely recorded this way.

Quote lazinov:

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if you play it several times you might even come to like it and appreciate the more realistic sound.

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Sigh...

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An Eagle for an Emperor, A Kestrel for a Knave.

Quote The Elf:

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Quote lazinov:

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if you play it several times you might even come to like it and appreciate the more realistic sound.

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Sigh...

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indeed.....

OP - I've done LOADS of natural recordings. And you REALLY need to make sure you're in the right place. I like your recordings for what hey are - but they don't sound "natural". The "smashed to the face" common was pretty much about how far your appear to be from the source. It's unpleasant. It's likely to be he MP3 but the whole thing is wrecked with distortion. It's quite hard to listen too.... I'd like to hear the original recordings, but it sounds like over wound up preamps - although I doubt it is. MP3 at the rates you've done has rendered the care you've taken over the recording a waste of time.

With that in mind - any comments of "smashed to the face" may have nothing to do with you. Having said that - it could be that you are only 5 or 6 feet away..... unnatural was one of my first thoughts!

... are you sure you're not suffering from the "to sound real it's gotta be raw " approach i have with garage rock !! Orchestral intention often isn't to hear gutteral scrapes!!

E.European string sections? I have no comment to make here other than my political opposition to them being involved in any professional work due to unfair work ethics - their business attitude towards undercutting UK (and other western european) film recording work and then delivering poor results is infamous in the industry.... I'm glad your experience is different .... but the illegal undercutting (it's against international agreement between unions) from many EE orchestra for professional recording work is a disgrace. As is becoming obvious on the number of re-records I've done over the years - buy cheap, buy twice.

Quote lazinov:

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The playing could not be criticised in any way, however, the question is how many takes and edits were required?

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Do you know what Geoffrey? I don't care, I really don't.

And what's more, knowing classical musicians and recording engineers as I do, I trust the performance to be fairly 'honest' and IF any edits were made in that (or any other classical music recording), I trust them to be sympathetic to the piece and the performance.

These aren't talentless, unrehearsed morons wandering into a studio/concert hall for the first time who require quantising, microscopic note shifting, auto-tune and countless other studio tricks to knock a recording into some semblance of shape like so many pop records - these are people who have been playing and practicing and perfecting their craft (about which they are probably quite passionate) day in, day out for decades, probably since they were kids. Now, I imagine they can rip through that Dvorak perfectly well in one take (and for all you or I know, maybe they did on that particular recording - you are just making assumptions that it was edited) but if they (or the producer) feel happier by combining the best takes to make a recording that bears repeated listening, that is their choice. For you to suggest that these people are somehow 'faking it' to make a good recording to con the audience is insulting to them and somewhat disingenuous.

I like that recording and *I* happen to think it is superior to yours which, as I and others have commented, is 'in yer face' (I really felt like I was sitting on the violinists lap!). There is no 'spread' in your recording - the piano is on the left and the strings on the right (with little or no separation between the two string instruments) with a huge great dead space in the middle. Furthermore, I think the piano sounds indistinct and the tonality of the strings is brash and harsh.

Those elements alone make your recording far removed from 'natural' IMO.

Quote lazinov:

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if you play it several times you might even come to like it and appreciate the more realistic sound.

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Oh dear

If you like your way of recording and prefer it to listen to that kind of thing, that's fine by me, it really is, but it is somewhat arrogant to expect everyone else to ... and rather bizarre that you should be campaigning for ALL such recordings to be made your way and what's more, keep banging on about it when there appears to be overwhelming objection to your principles.

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Website / Music Lab Machines / Blog

Excellent post Hollowsun. I really don't see what the problem with the natural, unedited sound lobby is. Those who believe that can release CDs with a natural, two microphone sound and no edits, except the odd cough removed, and advertise it as such.
This is not revolutionary, there is organic food. The organic and free range food movement is successful because that is what many people (myself included) want. The entire movement is rigorously supervised and any producer that does not meet these standards is not allowed to call their produce organic.
So there is nothing to stop anyone doing this with CD recordings, they can even be released on vinyl if necessary. However organic produce has organic on it. Other food does not have to say it is not organic. Natural Cds could have this stated on the cover.

So lazinov, you have started so why not continue? Send your CDs and albums to classical music magazines and radio stations stating that there are no edits and let the consumers decide. The classical music market is a dedicated one and if they want what you offer they will respond. I have heard complaints about the perfection of contemporary classical CDs and for many years I preferred the recordings of people like Cortot, mistakes and all. And I still love Schnabel's recordings of late Beethoven, even though there are mistakes - what's more I have them on vinyl.

Incidentally, I suppose I am half way towards your principles, my classical CD was recorded with a stereo microphone (Royer) in a church, with no added reverb or compression. However there are edits, retakes, and an exceptionally skilled engineer (who is a member of this forum) removed unwanted traffic, and in one place, aircraft noise. (That is one of the bugbears of recording in West London of course and we were exceptionally unlucky during a couple of really good takes.)

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No longer a forum member.

just something else to bear in mind:

Although we all love music, and we all have different opinions on how things should be done - the overriding reason for releasing music is a business one. It has to make money. History has shown us that the one that the general public prefer is the one that sells . Now whether that preference is market led, talent led, sound quality led or realism led is up for debate. The man in he street, even more specifically the classical listening layman, will gravitate towards either:

1. What he's told to buy
or hopefully
2. What he PERCEIVES to be better.

Most listeners, whether he OP likes it or not, gravitate towards "altered" works. Us recordists/producers etc etc ry and do it in such a way as to appear invisible in order that the layman (the buyer) goes "Wow" and we make money.

Never ever forget - that no matter what - it's (perhaps sadly) music BUSINESS. There are always a million things to consider. A Nickelback (yeuch) studio album will outsell an Eastern European classical CD. Yup - stupid comparison. An Abbey Road sublimely produced and Simon Rattle conducted rendition of the Planets will outsell an "honest" stereo mic' recording of the Prague Sinfonia version (although hardly unknowns in the field!!). Why? Rattle's a "rock star" (don't believe me? check out his "private" life....Magdalena Kozena indeed!). Economics plays a role at every point. A small part is producing a recording that someone who is investing £50,000 can sell. You can bet your butt that it's NOT going to be a two mic' stereo version over a multimic' "produced" affair - the risk is too high.

HOWEVER - if Simon Rattle was to have decided that he was going to do a "realistic" series of recordings with Nigel Kennedy and they went on telly with Jonathan Ross (and others) barking on about how this was the new classical punk - then it might have a chance.

As it is - apart from your sideline recordings, it would be profesional suicide for a label. The Naxos stuff I've done re done at cheap cost and are sold on the basis of being live unedited performance. That's enough to risk! Do it with stereo only mic's? Crazy and probably far too niche. We'd be lucky to shift 500 units.

From Ivan SC
At the risk of opening old wounds here, there has to be room for all opinions and you are sort of sliding back into that "you must accept I am right" mode.
Personally I think it`s time for you to just accept that we all have different perceptions of what sounds "right" and nobody`s opinion is any more or less valid than any other

I’m sorry if that was the impression I gave.
Olive Branch,
Let’s put it this way, you guys are experts in your field and I admire your professionalism.
My sudden ‘thump’ arrival into your domain, I can see would seem heavy handed and narrow-minded.
The fact is I was not familiar with SOS or the regular readership and naively thought I could collect some support – ha ha.
One good thing that has come out of our meeting is that I have come to appreciate the reasoning for how things are and little OLD me is certainly not going to change the world.
The famous Petition has not been publicized yet and I intend to make substantial changes to it, maybe I will even scrap it. Just give me time; the important thing is that no one will find it for the time being.
I still haven’t had time to prepare the FLAC’s, which I will upload in due course and notify you - in the hope that you might find some merit in my 40-year-old recordings; certainly so far the reception has been very cold and naturally disappointing.
Narcoman,
I take note of your comments concerning the undercutting by E. European musicians. If it’s any consolation to you I think the situation will change quite quickly. The fundamental reason has been, of course, that the cost of any production in these countries related to the cost of living here, which has been considerably lower than in the UK.
If you can imagine I bought my house here for about 150K, that was nearly three years ago. Today the value is at least 250K, not that I will ever profit from it because I intend to remain here. Beer is still cheap here and food generally, including restaurants, but even those prices have increased dramatically in the last couple of years.
The end result is that as Eastern European prices and wages come into line with W. Europe so will music production costs. In fact already many commodities are actually more expensive here than in the UK.
M&S has a store, about 60km from where I live and the goods carry the UK as well as Czech prices. The Czech prices are about 15% higher!
Hi Hollowsun,
We both have our own views on the subjects we have discussed. I think it would be fair to say that neither of us is wrong. I certainly would not suggest that my way is the only way or that the sound sample you provided is wrong, I simply offered my opinion as you did on my sound sample.
Certainly the musicians who are employed by studios must, by definition, be of a high standard, having tried to play violin myself I have the highest regard for those who achieve such standards.
When listening to a recording no one wants to hear the same mistakes over and over again and editing patently obvious mistakes is necessary – also in my philosophy. My problem is with literally hundreds of edits to a single work, because the customer believes what he hears to be a representation of the artists’ ability. Once again I stress that this is my opinion and I have no wish to impose it on others.
I have already stated above that I intend to change the petition, or probably even remove it. Further consideration is required, and for the moment no one knows the web address unless they are told so the public at large will not see it.
I’m sorry I came across as arrogant but I’m pleased to have had the privilege of meeting you all.
I will be back in touch shortly when I have had time to make changes and new sound samples.
For the time being I wish you all the best.
Kind regards,
Geoffrey Terry

G

I don't think you're arrogant. Very strong belief - sure. But why not !?

Of course everyone can have their own belief - and your last post is pretty much spot on. You've definitely made it clear it's something you feel strongly about , and I;m all for that!

I'm looking forward to hearing better quality conversions. You're doing a niche thing - and so long as it's not seen as a poo pooing of other methods I'm pretty sure that certain people WILL take to what you want to do.

I also think the undercutting thing will change - I have already heard of many Czech musicians complaining about low pay - I was mostly concerned about certain bodies blatant disregard for agreed rates!! Ah well...!

No Olive branch necessary, by the way - as far as I'm concerned your enthusiasm is MORE than welcome here. I think this has (mostly) been just lively debate... and should be taken just as that. There is certainly nothing wrong with you wanting to achieve something - just remember that there will be many who'll disagree - me included

Hi Narcoman,
Yes you are quite right that BUSINESS determines the success or failure of more or less any product.
You mentioned Simon Rattle, Magdalena Kozena is a friend of ours and we were very sorry to see her get involved with him, whatever it has certainly had the right effect on her career.
When it comes down to hard business you will all be eating and driving Mercedes long after I am gone.
My impression is that you work in the business field, perhaps I should be asking you advise on how to promote my product, the advertiser doesn't need to believe in the product!
Ciao
Geoffrey

I agree, no olive branch is necessary. However I gather you had a problem with at least one of my posts, so if you want an olive branch, it is certainly on offer.

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No longer a forum member.

OK,
Jumping in with both feet here, knowing next to nothing about classical music but a little bit more about history.

Iazinov, you state these recordings are 40 years old: that puts them around the era of Prague Spring.

So, shouldn't your marketing ploy be something along the lines of "listen to these unique archive recordings of downtrodden Czech musicians who played during this tumultuous period of hope and despair. Feel the passion, feel the hunger for freedom etc etc"

I reckon that would give the recordings a context that might appeal to people's sensibilities.

This was one of those light bulb moments, so don't hold back, I fully expect to be shot down in flames.



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www.myspace.com/conory
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=804557

Quote hollowsun:

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Quote lazinov:

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The playing could not be criticised in any way, however, the question is how many takes and edits were required?

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Do you know what Geoffrey? I don't care, I really don't.

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Quite. If you can't hear any edits on listening to it, it does not matter whether they exist or not.

It's a metaphysical question at that point.

Conory: you are absolutely right. That's a bloody sight more interesting than how many mics were used and where they were placed.

Edited by Steve Hill (26/10/08 03:32 PM)

Hi,
That’s very magnanimous of you all. Just goes to show what a decent bunch you are.

It is common knowledge that the Brahms 1 sample I offered is terrible quality. I have just entered the world of FLAC, for the first time, and have uploaded a couple of minutes in that format.
The page also lists the recordings I made during the 60’s/70’s and which I would like to immortalise. The web address is: www.orchestralconcertcds.com/flacbrahms1.html
See you soon.
Ciao
Geoffrey

A link to download the FLAC file would be more use...

Hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Well at least I gained another interestin gplace to play....

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Me? But I`m such a loveable old bugger!

Hi
Will this do?

http://www.orchestralconcertcds.com/brahms%201%20short%20samle.flac

I am using a downloaded program so the file is stored in my pc.

Hope you can hear it now.
Regards
Geoffrey

Hi Conory,

Thank you for taking an interest.
Yes in fact I managed to pick up my wife just one week before the Russians arrived.
We have many bad memories of the regime and some freighting experiences too, since my wife had a son by her previous marriage and I foolishly promised to get him out. It's a long story but in the end we succeeded.
Your idea is a good one, I have a recording from the RFH of the Prague Symphony Orchestra playing the Czechoslovak national anthem just a few days after the invasion, it was a real tearjerker.
Several members of the orchestras defected during the tours but they were under constant scrutiny so it was quite difficult.
If you would like to hear some details I could post them as blogs.
Thanks again for the suggestions.
Geoffrey

Nice one - no time to listen now as I have lunch with Miss Terrible and my MUm to "do" in a few minutes.

Hopefully should be a lot easier on the ear this time.

Do you plan to post all the files in FLAC on the "new improved " site?

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Me? But I`m such a loveable old bugger!

Quote lazinov:

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Will this do?

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Well...it is a FLAC file, and it does sound better than the original MP3 you offered.

Sadly, I have to say I'm still not impressed -- there is still something horribly wrong here and the material is still unlistenable because of very nasty artefacts and no top end at all.

If this FLAC was sourced from the non MP3 source, then I would hazard a guess that you have tried to remove tape noise very aggressively using some kind of digital de-noising program.

If that is the case, it has been ludicrously overdone to such an extent that there are very nasty and audible low level artefacts (the typical de-noise burbling effect) and there is no top end at all. It's all very dull with nothing like the ambience I would have expected from a stereo pair. And the audience coughing part way through kicks off some entertaining de-noise algorithm artefacts too

I fear in your attempt to remove all audible tape hiss (which I rarely find objectionable) you have largely destroyed the desirable spatial qualities of a stereo pair recording.

However, putting that problem aside for the moment, and ignoring the tape drops outs, for me the recording still sounds much too close in overall perspective. I feel I am looking over the condictor's shoulder... and the orchestral sections still sound unbalanced and lack clarity. This is not what I would describe as a 'natural sound' -- or even a pleasant sound come to that. Sorry.

I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree on what we each perceive as natural and acceptable. To me, this recording is neither, on both technical and aesthetic grounds. Sorry -- I don't want to offend, but that's the way I see it from the material supplied.

Hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Hi Hugh,
You are quite correct that I attempted to remove tape hiss and used a simple program to do so, that is responsible for the burbling you spoke of.
Nevertheless, I am glad that you persevered with it and were able to judge it from a general point of view.
You were clearly unimpressed and I appreciate the honest report, in a sense if you had given high praise I would have been unsure.
What I think I will do, as a last resort, is to upload the same section straight from the original tape. I will let you know, it could be a week or so, and if you would be so kind as to listen just once more, I would be very much obliged. Then I will have to make a serious decision as to whether or not to proceed at all with that particular recording.
The two CDs I have already produced were in fact mastered by disk2disc, frankly I wasn’t happy with the end result and was continually returning them for correction, that’s why I made an attempt on my own.
You have spent a lot of time on this matter, for which I thank you; I hope it hasn’t been time wasted.
Kind regards,
Geoffrey

What I don't understand is that the thrust of all of this is to somehow capture a 'natural' sound that 'conventional' and well accepted CD recording practices fail to do and now it is discovered that the recordings have been processed and have had (by the sound of it) loads of HF removed in an attempt to 'clean them up'!

Even Balthazar's mythical friend, Kevin with his computer, would never conduct such sacrilege .

Having listened to the FLAC, I have to agree with Hugh.

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Website / Music Lab Machines / Blog