Quote lazinov:

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You are quite correct that I attempted to remove tape hiss and used a simple program to do so, that is responsible for the burbling you spoke of.

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Thought so. It sounds very over-processed I'm afraid. I find it worrying that you were not troubled by that...

Quote:

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What I think I will do, as a last resort, is to upload the same section straight from the original tape.

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That would allow a genuine opinion of the original quality to be formed, at least.

Quote:

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You have spent a lot of time on this matter, for which I thank you; I hope it hasn’t been time wasted.

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Geoffrey, I'm always willing to help anyone who is enthusiastic about music recording and high quality sound, and many others here are equally benevolent. We are all as passionate about producing good quality recordings as you are, although clearly we seem to have slightly differnt views on how that can be defined. So certainly not time wasted (apart from that dealing with the Baltazar lunatic's comments), and I think many others here will have benefited from our conversations along the way too.

Hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Quote hollowsun:

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Even Balthazar's mythical friend, Kevin with his computer, would never conduct such sacrilege

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I think Kevin was really into fader abuse though, he didn't seem so interested in noise reduction.
And regrettably, I think Balthazar is such a space cadet, Kevin is probably very real indeed.

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No longer a forum member.

Just a thought - how old are the tapes and how long have they been stored.
What sort of conditions and were they stored spooled in or out?

Couldn`t hear enough from what is left to really figure out what is going on but then High as always has already put it much more eloquently than I could.

I was left with the suspicion that at least part of the loss and hiss etc you were complaining of could have its origins in what happened after the recording rather than during.
What stock did you use?

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Me? But I`m such a loveable old bugger!

I was troubled by the result of the tape hiss removal but was anxious to get the FLAC uploaded, I should have spent more time on it and proposed the raw tape test that will now follow.
Talk to you later
Geoffrey

Quote lazinov:

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I was troubled by the result of the tape hiss removal but was anxious to get the FLAC uploaded, I should have spent more time on it and proposed the raw tape test that will now follow.
Talk to you later
Geoffrey

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mmm. Look forward to hearing that. Noise reduction is a horrible thing..... best used sparingly!

Quote lazinov:

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The two CDs I have already produced were in fact mastered by disk2disc, frankly I wasn’t happy with the end result and was continually returning them for correction, that’s why I made an attempt on my own.

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Are you the one dissatisfied customer mentioned on their website?

Given your opinion I was interested to see that disk2disc work with Pristine Classical - I always thought that Andrew Rose did his own transfers but it would appear not. I suspect that disk2discs real expertise lies in doing the transfers rather than the later restoration stages.

I would always suggest attending a transfer/restoration session if you are working with someone you haven't worked with before. It is much easier for me to be able to just turn to someone and say 'Does this sound right?' than to send a CD through the post and then receive comments back a few days later.

Cheers

James.

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JRP Music - Audio Mastering and Restoration.
http://www.jrpmusic.net

Hi Ivan SC,
The tapes are more than 40 years old.
They have always been stored in a domestic situation. For a few years they remained in the UK. We moved to Italy for 10 years, 5 years in Florida (with air conditioning), then 4 years here in the Czech Republic, followed by 3 years in the UK, then 4 years in the S. of France and finally back here to CZ, nearly 3 years ago. Poor things are exhausted but I promise not to move them again.
In the majority of cases they were spooled in.
Agfa PE36
The plot thickens!
Ciao
Geoffrey

Hi,
I was not exactly a dissatisfied customer. I think Peter is very good at his job. The problem was probably due to the distance, as you say the end result would be better achieved had it been possible for me to be in attendance and agree each stage of the process.
I just had a quick look at the site and could not find any reference to dissatisfied customers!
Ciao
Geoffrey

Hi,
As promised, I have now uploaded a copy of part of the original tape of the Brahms. It can be found, hiss and all on:
http://www.orchestralconcertcds.com/brahms%201%20short%20samle.flac
I hope you can find time to listen and comment. Honest opinions would be appreciated.
Ciao
Geoffrey

Are you sure you linked to the right file? This one seems very over-processed too.

Cheers

James.

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JRP Music - Audio Mastering and Restoration.
http://www.jrpmusic.net

No -- it's the same file as before, from the same web address, and with the same typo in the name.

Hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Good afternoon,
I do apologise for the error with regard to the sample.
I did in fact replace the earlier version with the ‘direct from tape’ copy, as promised, to the main site - presuming that it would also be replaced on the sub-site.
I have spent the morning attempting to upload the finale of the symphony direct from tape, as an FLAC, without success I’m afraid and in the process removed the existing good copy.
The file size is 13Mb. I use BlueVoda as my host and the FTP process will just not accept the file.
I suggested originally that it might be a week before I could complete the process, calmly. It was foolish of me to attempt a quick fix.
If you will excuse me I will revert the one-week period and try to find a solution to the problem. Short of which I will, with your blessing, send a CD of the entire symphony to Hugh.
Once again please excuse my mistake.
Kind regards,
Geoffrey

Use something like yousendit or rapidshare to host the files.

Hi archdake mkII,
Thanks for the suggestions I have used Rapidshare to upload a couple of files;
http://rapidshare.com/files/159245401/direct_txfr_brahms_1.flac.htmland http://rapidshare.com/files/159250754/finale_brahms_1.flac.html
The first is the opening of the first movement of the Brahms 1 and the second a few bars of the finale.
The system seems to work quite well the only problem is that using the free service you are only entitled to one download, which is fair of course.
Kindly remember that the samples are direct from tape.
Regards
Geoffrey

Just for information, Geofffrey Terry sent me an e-mail message to say:

Quote:

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I thought I would let you know that I have removed all references to the petition from my site.
 
I now have to remove the petition altogether, something I need to negotiate with the co-originator. I expect to complete the process within a few days and will let you know.
 
Once again I apologise for all the frustration it caused you and other members of SOS
 
Good luck with your excellent forum.

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Personally, I think this is a sensible decision, but the ensuing debate on microphone techniques and approaches has been an interesting and useful one.

Hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Quote Hugh Robjohns:

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Just for information, Geofffrey Terry sent me an e-mail message to say:

Quote:

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I thought I would let you know that I have removed all references to the petition from my site.
 
I now have to remove the petition altogether, something I need to negotiate with the co-originator. I expect to complete the process within a few days and will let you know.
 
Once again I apologise for all the frustration it caused you and other members of SOS
 
Good luck with your excellent forum.

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Personally, I think this is a sensible decision, but the ensuing debate on microphone techniques and approaches has been an interesting and useful one.

Hugh

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It has been interesting. I've never been involved with classical/orchestral music recording, but it's whetted my appetite for if I ever get an opportunity!

I'd like to know if anyone else has thoughts about the speaker placement posting earlier in the thread. If I'm missing something in my response I'd be happy for someone to put me straight!

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An Eagle for an Emperor, A Kestrel for a Knave.

I think this has been a really informative thread and I think to evaluate views on recording classical music is a good thing. Although it started ostensibly as a negative, maybe even provocative, thread it has turned into something positive, that's good enough for me.

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No longer a forum member.

Hi Ian,
I was just quickly reading through: http://www.soundonsound.com/forum/showflat.php?Number=343967
I wonder if perhaps you can tell me, has the approach to orchestral recording changed so much in the last two years that when, unknowingly, I recently suggested a stereo pair and simply finding peak, otherwise no correction. I was hounded down? It would seem that in 2006 that was more or less the way to go.
Incidentaly I was disappointed that no one made comment on the Brahms I uploaded, do you feel like making constructive criticism? Please remember that the file is direct from tape.
Ciao
Geoffrey

Hi Hugh,
I just wonder if you have decided not to comment on my samples out of kindness. Maybe you think they are so bad!
The thread seems to be closing and yet I still envisage potential debate on the subject of mic technique and mastering. Members should refer to an earlier debate on the subject:
http://www.soundonsound.com/forum/showflat.php?Number=343967
which more or less conflicts with the postings on this debate.
On one occasion you made the observation that when listening to my samples you felt you were on the conductors shoulders. I am not sure if that was a criticism, in fact I take it as the highest compliment, since the conductors' position is the place were the balance is correct, it must be by definition, or the conductor is not doing his job correctly.
Incidentally the mics were placed approximately 4m apart, approximatley 1m in front of the orchestra and suspended about 3m above the orchestra, that would be my chosen positioning for a stereo pair in the RFH.
I would be very interested to know how other members would approach a full symphony orchestra (Mahler or Bruckner).
Kind regards
Geoffrey

Quote lazinov:

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Hi Ian,
I was just quickly reading through: <a href="/forum/showflat.php?Number=343967" target="_blank">http://www.soundonsound.com/forum/showflat.php?Number=343967</a>
I wonder if perhaps you can tell me, has the approach to orchestral recording changed so much in the last two years that when, unknowingly, I recently suggested a stereo pair and simply finding peak, otherwise no correction. I was hounded down? It would seem that in 2006 that was more or less the way to go.
Incidentaly I was disappointed that no one made comment on the Brahms I uploaded, do you feel like making constructive criticism? Please remember that the file is direct from tape.
Ciao
Geoffrey

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I think the main difference between that thread and yours was the "sign this petition to do things right" approach. Nobody has any doubts about the results that can be achieved with minimal mic'ing. But I think people objected to the "it's the only way" feeling tat came across.

As for the recordings - they sound cool. they DO sound like they've been pushed into tape quite hot - so sound a bit "tapey" compressed. Oh - and the wonderfully flat note at 40 seconds - but that's neither here nor there!! Strings sound great though !!

I like the sound - it's nice. The only problem I'd have is that (although I've no direct frame of reference to hand for this piece) is how un-alive it feels when you put a decent studio recording next to it. It actually feels a little un-dynamic (tape again). I just checked it next to Rattles (sorry ) Berlin recording of Jupiter (just watching the accompanying movie that comes with it). However - I like it, and I'd happily listen to it again. In fact, i think i will!

How would I approach a minimal mic'ing situation. Decca tree for a start with two omni outriggers well back and very wide. Wouldn't do it with any less!!

As for the balance being correct at the conductors position. I'm not sure that's right. The conductor often adjusts balance for what he/she percieves the audience will hear. Having stood MANY times (even at the mighty Abbey Road) at my conductors position (on gigs) I'm certainly sure that the balance at the conductors position is something I really really DON'T want! Too harsh, too dry! And too "blasting yer nuts off"..!!

Quote lazinov:

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I wonder if perhaps you can tell me, has the approach to orchestral recording changed so much in the last two years that when, unknowingly, I recently suggested a stereo pair and simply finding peak, otherwise no correction. I was hounded down? It would seem that in 2006 that was more or less the way to go.

---

I suggest you read the thread again, because it was discussing something rather different to your proposal,and I don't see any contradiction between that thread and the comments made in this one.

The core question of that other thread was about the use of compression, and most of the respondents said it wasn't really necessary in most cases for CD release, but that where it was, subtle manual fader riding or gentle parallel compression was the usual answer. Classical music being broadcast was typically compressed more heavily, but usually by the broadcaster in the TX chain, rather than at source.

The thrust of your petition and the start of this thread, as I understood it, was that a simple stereo pair was the only acceptable approach to recording classical orchestra, and there has been substantial debate arguing in general terms that many professionals and keen amateurs here wouldn't find that acceptable in all situations.

The other thread you referred to commented on the idea of using 50-plus mics for a classical session, and how that isn't a widely use approach (although it is used in some cases). Most preferred a simpler approach than that, but no one said a stereo pair was the ideal and only solution.... because it simply isn't. The occasions where a stereo pair can deliver excellent results (as judged by most people) are strictly linited, as we have already discussed.

Quote:

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Incidentaly I was disappointed that no one made comment on the Brahms I uploaded, do you feel like making constructive criticism? Please remember that the file is direct from tape.

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I've been busy with other things for the last few days, buyt I will listen again when I get the chance and comment accordingly. There should be no need to apologise for the fact that it came off tape. I have tapes here dating back to the early 1960s that sound fantastic, even by modern standards.

Hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Quote lazinov:

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I just wonder if you have decided not to comment on my samples out of kindness. Maybe you think they are so bad!

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No, just been busy doing more pressing things. When I get the chance to listen critically, I will and post my thoughts accordingly. I suspect my views regarding perspective and balance will be largely unchanged, but it is possible that without the heavy handed de-noise processing, the natural hall acoustic will help it all gel together much better. I look forward to finding out...

Quote:

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The thread seems to be closing and yet I still envisage potential debate on the subject of mic technique and mastering.

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It might be wise to close this thread (since the petition seems to have gone away), and to start new ones to discuss mic techniques or mastering -- and there are dedicated forums for each of those topics.

Quote:

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Members should refer to an earlier debate on the subject which more or less conflicts with the postings on this debate.

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As I said earlier, I don't see the contradiction at all.

Quote:

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On one occasion you made the observation that when listening to my samples you felt you were on the conductors shoulders.

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Yes, I found the perspective far too close and unnatural.

Quote:

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I am not sure if that was a criticism, in fact I take it as the highest compliment, since the conductors' position is the place were the balance is correct, it must be by definition, or the conductor is not doing his job correctly.

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No, that is entirely wrong. The role of the conductor is to balance the orchestra in such a way as the audience hears the music in the hall to the best advantage. There is absolutely no point in balancing the orchestra to sound great in the one place that no paying audience member can sit!

When I'm listening to an orchestral recording, I want to hear it much as I would in the hall -- or at least in so far as the technology allwos -- with a natural perspective, with the sound of the hall recognisable, with each section balanced appropriately. I don't want to hear it the way the conductor did, or the way the second cello desk heard it, or the percussionists! Been there and done that having played in all those positions before now! I want to hear it as if I was sat in the best seat in the hall -- which will be a fair way away from the conductor!

Quote:

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Incidentally the mics were placed approximately 4m apart, approximatley 1m in front of the orchestra and suspended about 3m above the orchestra, that would be my chosen positioning for a stereo pair in the RFH.

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Yes, I had guessed it was a wide spaced pair across the front of the stage from the lack of imaging precision and the emphasis on the strings over the other sections.

Quote:

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I would be very interested to know how other members would approach a full symphony orchestra (Mahler or Bruckner).

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I suspect there may be a lot of comments to this... can I suggest you ask the question again in a separate thread. With large multi-page threads like this the servers start to get pretty bogged down loading the whole thing. A new thread would isolate the question more sebnsible and provide a more responsive forum for everyone else.

Hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Hi lazinov,

I am really only involved in the recording of chamber music where it is usually just a stereo microphone. However I am a musician/composer, not a recording engineer, although I have personally recorded classical guitar.
The reason I have not listened to the Brahms is because I am working to two deadlines at the moment, although not being a recording engineer by training I could not really offer much advice.
I suspect our main difference of opinion is the use of editing, I have no problem with that providing it is done well, which in my experience it usually is. I can well understand why you disagree though. For instance in a chamber work of mine there were 7 bars of piano that needed to be rerecorded so I recorded them and they were edited into the original piano part. So successfully in fact that when the leader listened to approve the finished recording he did not notice the change of pianist.
The thing is I think the CD buying public know there is editing on classical CDs so to me it is not dishonest. There is a negative effect, I think, in that performers feel they have to be meticulously accurate in concerts which can produce an apprehensiveness. However it is not as serious as Photoshop where numerous young females have psychological problems because they don't look like the girls in magazines. These young girls don't realize that models and actors don't look like that either.

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No longer a forum member.

Quote lazinov:

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I just wonder if you have decided not to comment on my samples out of kindness.

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I have now listened to the two original raw tape excerpts and I found them considerably easier to listen to than all the previous mangled versions. At least some of the hall acoustic can be heard now (although it isn't that nice, sadly).

I wasn't bothered at all by the tape hiss and I don't know why you felt the need to try to removce it so heavily in the previous samples. I was bothered by the obvious tape compression/saturation durng the fffs, but that's partly because we no longer have to compromise dynamic range these days, and so examples like this stand out more clearly.

From a balance point of view, it simply isn't what I prefer, but many would probably accept it quite happily. Personally, I find the strings to have too close a perspective and their imaging to be two wide and 'puddly.' The woodwind, brass and percussion have a nicer perspective and slightly better imaging, but the contrast with the strings is too large for my taste and I felt there wasn't quite enough clarity or detail. All entirely subjective and personal opinions and expectations....

If I had been require to cover this orchestra with just a stereo pair, I think I would have gone for crossed hypercardioids or ORTF further back to obtain a more even balance and perspective of the whole orchestra, with more hall ambience (such as it is).

Hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

I just thought I'd chime in and mention something I heard the other day in a Philip Glass interview. He was talking about the difficulty for a composer to gauge, for example how many instruments to put on a particular part to achieve the balance levels you hear in your head. More often than not you are at the mercy of the hall or space you are in and in the case of concertos there is not even any guarantee that you will ever be able to get the mix balance you hear in your head.

To me, live and recorded music are very distinct things and in each you have to try and give the best possible result given what you have at your disposal. Now if and artist or conductor or composer is in agreement, I can not see the damage in using multi miking to improve the overall sound balance.

I appreciate and understand the desire by some to document a particular performance in as direct and untampered way as possible. As an intellectual exercise. However, if your aim is to produce the most enjoyable rendition of a musical idea to recordbuying public then I don't think the purist approach is necessarily as valid.

Just my opinion, obviously.

--------------------
'These are my principles and if you don't like them...well, I have others' (Groucho Marx) www.ownlittleworld.net/tunes.html

Hi everybody,
Thanks to those who took the time and trouble to comment on the samples I provided links to. I take your observations very seriously.
For the time being the roof is taking priority over the PC. however, I shall be returning with a new thread in the not too distant future.
Kind regards to all and keep the standard up.
Geoffrey

Quote Hugh Robjohns:

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When I'm listening to an orchestral recording, I want to hear it much as I would in the hall -- or at least in so far as the technology allwos -- with a natural perspective, with the sound of the hall recognisable, with each section balanced appropriately. I don't want to hear it the way the conductor did, or the way the second cello desk heard it, or the percussionists! Been there and done that having played in all those positions before now! I want to hear it as if I was sat in the best seat in the hall -- which will be a fair way away from the conductor!

---

I've come across a similar situation in the past with one of my first commercial projects.

Amongst the 'approvers' at my clients, was someone who literally sat in the middle of the band (both euphemistically and physically). His first comment - and it was a serious one - was that the listening copy didn't sound anything like the band he played in....and what he meant was he couldn't directly hear the two positions that were adjacent to him louder than everything else

Having sat in lots of different places and conducted various ensembles, I'm in full agreement with Hugh that the last thing I'd want to here is a recording from such a position.

Can't resist posting this from a classical music forum from our departed friend (aka one of the wise men).

Quote:

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Another aspect of the natural sound debate is whether we’re even hearing real instruments played by real people at the time of the recording. With most CDs it’s impossible to tell what the sound lab boys have been up to. Computer generated sound, cutting and splicing, sampling, multi-mike techniques, technicians fiddling with sound desks like Spock on the Starship Enterprise, and you risk ending up with a CGI monster.

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Just think if you could get sample libraries that good.

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No longer a forum member.

I wonder what colour the sky is on his planet...

hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

I couldn`t resist - I have just kicked his ass rather thoroghly and am anticipating a request that |I vacate the premises.

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Me? But I`m such a loveable old bugger!

Quite right Ivan. For the benefit of this forum here is another of his statements :

Quote:

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With modern technology and the arrogance of some recording engineers and their CD label masters, they even scrub notes played by real people and replace them with a computer generated simulation

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I don't think he is a troll, I think he is delusional.

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No longer a forum member.

Well here is a little private exchange I had with the nutter over there. Apparently my initial response to his/her continual carping on about kevins was a little too direct and to the point for the management over there.
I have now stopped posting over there completely as it is obviously a waste of time trying to get any sense out of this particular vocal and dense monkey.
Interesting that he always resorts to threats and abuse when called upon to defend his position and yet calls ME a cyber abuser...
*sigh*

[QUOTE=purple99][QUOTE=Mr. Terrible]Hi - just as a matter of idle curiousity, where did you originally get the idea that there are all these machiavellian plots to clobber classical recordings from?

You have even invented things that don`t exist (CGI instruments???) and I am fascinated to find out upon what you are basing your claims.
Judging by the way in which your comments are generally worded, you obviously have no knowledge of how recordings are actually made or indeed of the equipment that is typically used in making them.
Which makes it all the more interesting that you think the way you do.

Have you ever thought of trying to get yourself invited to a classical session?
I have a friend who lives and works in Central London and frequently employs the LSO and other professional "classical" players for recording sessions.
If you like I could try to arange for you to sit in a corner and observe a session, just to give you some understanding of the processes involved and why your ideas are a little on the odd side, as well as impractical.

Let me know.
Ivan[/QUOTE]
I've asked you before not to send me private messages. You're a proven cyber-abuser who's now been warned twice by the management here. You get away with it on SOS because the management there are themselves cyber-abusers who break their own rules and encourage members to do the same. I've kept your abusive PMs here and if you PM me one more time I'll forward them to site management and ask for your access to the PM system to be removed.[/QUOTE]


Well your wish is my command. Since I have already received a polite message from the management and I am not one to overstay my welcome, I am already on my way out the door.
I`d still be fascinated to hear where you got the impressions you have of what really goes on in a recording studio.
But there again that is probably why you are afraid of confdrontation on your views.
You can`t substantiate them.
What is particularly sad is that one of the members on here has indicated that you are of the female gender.
The sort of attitude you have been showing here and on SOS is far more indicative of an excess of testosterone.
Still, I am quite happy to leave you to your delusional state, but let us not forget who invaded whose little corner of the net and started posting abuse in the first place, sweetie.

XXX Ivan[/QUOTE]

I for one have decided it is just not worth bothering with the site again since the other folks on there seem to be quite happy to accept this person`s bowdlerised version of what he/she/it thinks goes on in a studio rather than boterhing to check out the veracity of it all.
Makes me glad to come back here to our usual state of semi-lucidity.
And when you come to think of it, I`ll bet we all hade mental pictures of blokes in long brown coats and cloth caps when Kevin was referred to.
Except I think his name was Bert.
Seven sugars please, luv!

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Me? But I`m such a loveable old bugger!

Surprise, surprise I think they are about to or have already banned me!
It`s a dirty job but someone had to do it.

Oh and Hugh - I still haven`t heard back that my membership to that other site has been accepted yet.
How `bout you?

Think we are finally about done here.

Ivan-the-naughty-boy

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Me? But I`m such a loveable old bugger!

Dear Lord, dear me, sweet Jesus, Mary mother of God and other such phrases of abject desperation!

In an idle moment tonight, I had a look around the 'Talk Classical' forum you speak of - what a bunch of f*cking delusional numpties!!!

Ok - some aren't so bad but Purple99/Baltazar? Dear God - his peddling of such arrant misinformation is just SO wrong that it beggars belief! Does he really think that occasional duff notes (such as they are) in classical recordings are somehow auto-tuned and replaced by Kevin's computer? The man (woman?) is a blithering and delusional idiot of the first order. And then some.

Ivan - I think that you (and Hugh and 0VU) were FAR too gracious there but it's a testament to the civility of the people on this forum where (unlike that one) people who know what they're talking about try to educate and elucidate backed up with real experience of recording orchestras....

Only to be called "cyber abusers" by a complete and utter inexperienced dimwit and ignorant f*ckwit who doesn't have the first f*cking clue of what he's talking about as he sits there in his armchair telling uninformed and impressionable numpties how it should be

I love the internet - I have learnt so much from it but I do despair when I see twats like Purple99/Baltazar spreading and peddling lies as though they are truths.

But you tried to expose him for the uninformed, misinformed, pig-ignorant and inexperienced twat that he is so more power to your elbow ... even if it resulted on you being banned. That says more about the forum than it does of you.

--------------------
Website / Music Lab Machines / Blog

well unfortunately I did rather descend to their level.
I had some posts removed from the threads where p99 was active and received a solemn PM from one of their mods awarding me some sort of a demerit and telling me they could do what they liked, so there, so I responded that yes they could do what they liked and so could I.
And that he could stick his demerit up his ass.
Funnily enough, I went back as a lurker to find that more of my posts had been removed or "modified" yet P99`s were intact in all their glory.

Checked to see if I had been banned and of course I had.

Maybe someone could log in over there and pass on a request from me that, since they are selectively removing or altering some of my posts, perhaps they could do me the kindness of removing ALL my posts.

I suppose I could log back in as a new user and do it myself but frankly I can`t be bothered.

Shame really as I found several of their members to be pretty decent people with an interesting take on music etc.
On the other hand I won`t be losing any sleep over it.



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Me? But I`m such a loveable old bugger!

(Surfacing from lurk-mode...)

FWIW I totally agree with Hollowsun.

I will admit straight away that I have never taken an active part in any orchestral recording (though I have been there as an observer), so I am not positioning myself with any expertise here. But it dismays me that someone who obviously has not the first clue of what they are talking about struts so pompously as a self-appointed expert and leads such a grand parade of misinformation and prejudice.

If I had access to the Dr. Who audio-fixing tools that Purple99 has dreamed up in his magical little world then I would be a very happy engineer indeed! Never mind orchestral work - I'd love to be able fix rock performances so easily!

I hope there are lurkers from Talk Classical reading this thread and I hope they begin to challenge Purple99's 'not to be questioned' assertions - and, arguably, motives. It is quite clear he is bluffing and has no more knowledge of his subject than an enthusiastic 'fan'. He just shouts louder - that's all.

It may not be the most important subject facing anyone at this time, but ignorance and predjudice are always worthy of a fight.

Respect to those here, with the *real* expertise, experience and knowledge, who took up the cudgel for the rest. Good on you.

Nuff said.

--------------------
An Eagle for an Emperor, A Kestrel for a Knave.

Quote IvanSC:

---

well unfortunately I did rather descend to their level.
I had some posts removed from the threads where p99 was active and received a solemn PM from one of their mods awarding me some sort of a demerit and telling me they could do what they liked, so there, so I responded that yes they could do what they liked and so could I.
And that he could stick his demerit up his ass.
Funnily enough, I went back as a lurker to find that more of my posts had been removed or "modified" yet P99`s were intact in all their glory.

Checked to see if I had been banned and of course I had.

Maybe someone could log in over there and pass on a request from me that, since they are selectively removing or altering some of my posts, perhaps they could do me the kindness of removing ALL my posts.

I suppose I could log back in as a new user and do it myself but frankly I can`t be bothered.

Shame really as I found several of their members to be pretty decent people with an interesting take on music etc.
On the other hand I won`t be losing any sleep over it.

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You made it to "senior member" before being banned. That must mean something

Yeah - thought I wouldn`t be the only one to see the humor in that....
At least I know what a numpty is now, too!

Incidentally it is a bit of a shame to see that all the brouhaha seems to have driven poor old Geoff Terry, who started this behemoth thread, completely off their board.

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Me? But I`m such a loveable old bugger!

Edited by Hugh Robjohns (14/11/08 05:28 PM)

Hello Ivan and everyone else,
No I haven't been driven away just otherwise engaged for a few days
I've put together some points that I thought relevant to our discussion. I think particularly interesting is the comment from Sir Colin Davis, Hugh kindly note.

Close inspection of La Gioconda highlights the fact that she has no eyebrows. Utilising modern, digital technology, it would be perfectly feasible to add a pair of eyebrows, whilst emulating the brush strokes of Leonardo.
Unfortunately, since the artist painted the work more than 500 years ago it is not possible to refer to him for authority to undertake such a ‘correction’ or even to establish whether the omission results from intention or an oversight.
No, Miss Mona Lisa should be left as she is.
Such questions could also be posed in the field of musical composition. Maybe flutes should be added to double with strings here or double bases to back up the cellos there. Maybe that melody would sound better on the French horn rather than the oboe
No, once again the masterpieces of the past deserve to remain as the artists and composers offered them for publication.
Certainly in the case where a musician inadvertently plays a wrong note during a recording session, for instance the opening horn solo of Till Eulenspiegel, an electronic correction is justified. However, it is totally unacceptable for the conductor and musicians to request multiple changes in a recording to the extent that the final product does not represent their actual ability.
The recording of a musical composition relies upon just two, fundamental, adjustable components: balance and dynamics.
The conductor’s task is to take care of these two aspects by reference to the composer’s desires and expressed instructions.
With the development of digital, sound, editing technology the recording engineer also has the potential to alter the sound within these two parameters.
I recently offered up a recording for assessment to a group of highly respected recording engineers.
The first observation received was that the listener had the impression he was sitting on the shoulders of the conductor. The statement was intended as a criticism, whereas I accepted it as a compliment,
When I suggested that I accepted the comment with pleasure, the engineer stated that the sound achieved in that position was the last he would wish to hear.
His suggestion puzzled me and I decided to approach some leading conductors and ask for their thoughts on the subject.
Sir Colin Davis responded that, quote, “his ears only work where he is and the conductor cannot tell what it is like elsewhere in the auditorium."
This suggests to me that the balance and dynamics the conductor establishes and hears, represent that which he intends for the audience.
I have myself been present on many tours by leading symphony orchestras. Each night a different venue, where the conductor gains a feeling for the ambiance and directs the orchestra accordingly. The sound he creates and hears must be the sound he intends for the audience. It would clearly be impossible for the conductor to adjust balance and dynamics for certain positions in the auditorium and if he did so then the sound would be unsatisfactory in other locations in the hall. He can only provide what he considers to be an accurate balance of sound and also a dynamic range for the hall in general.
Clearly if there is a large orchestra of say 100 performers and an audience of say 2,000 then the sound heard throughout the auditorium will vary. Nevertheless, if the architect has designed the ambiance, taking into account all the variables of acoustics, then a satisfactory sound should be available to all members of the audience.
Certainly there are venues where it would be essential to employ several microphones in order to capture all the performers. By definition such a venue is not suitable for performances by musicians since the audience is limited by nature.
Therefore, should a record producer have the desire to undertake a new recording then he should select a suitable environment.
When recording engineers are obliged to adjust the level of sound produced by individual sections or instruments of an orchestra, he either increases or decreases the volume of sound by adjustment of the respective fader. Unfortunately, such an action not only varies the sound level but also creates the impression of actually physically moving the player or players. When continual adjustments are performed, at the request of the conductor, musician or producer, the end result appears unnatural with the instruments or sections of the orchestra apparently running to the front of the stage on each occasion that the volume of the fader, for their particular performance, is adjusted up and then returning to their regular position as the level is decreased.
There are many tools at the disposition of the recording engineer and they can be of great benefit in the process of CD manufacture; the ability to replace stark performance errors, the removal of extraneous noises, etc.
Prior to a public performance by a Symphony Orchestra it is customary to have a rehearsal, providing the conductor and orchestra with the possibility of familiarising themselves with the program pieces and one another.
Perhaps the orchestra performed the same work the week previously with a different conductor, now they need to familiarise themselves with the reading of the new conductor.
One of the major differences between a live performance and a performance purely for the purpose of recording is the presence of an audience. The sound characteristic of the hall varies in the two circumstances.
On the question of ambient acoustics it is common amongst recording companies to add electronic echo. Unfortunately, however professionally that stage of the process is performed the end result is unsatisfactory creating the suggestion that the recording was undertaken in St Pancreas railway station.
By way of entertaining you I would like to propose some samples of recordings I have made. The technique involved the use of just two microphones and once the optimum dynamic level had been established, during rehearsal, the entire recording was made without any adjustment.
1. The Royal Festival Hall organ during a practice session.
2. The Czech Piano Trio
3. The Leipzig Gewandhaus Bach Orchestra
4. The Hungarian State Symphony Orchestra For this particular example there are two FLACs on http://rapidshare.com/files/159245401/direct_txfr_brahms_1.flac.html And http://rapidshare.com/files/159250754/finale_brahms_1.flac.html
5. The Berliner Statskappeler
& to finish even an opera performance using the same technique.
To hear the other samples go to the foot of the webpage:

http://www.orchestralconcertcds.com/cnstr.html

If you are prepared to offer your opinion of the recordings I would be very grateful.
Regards
Geoffrey

Good man, Geoffrey! Glad to see you back.

I`m not on the studio machine at present but will fire it up and have a listen later.

I`m still not entirely comfortable with your various analogies but again I will take some time to think them through also.

FWIW my immediate reaction is that I probably have more of a problem with drop ins or spot replacements to "fix" bum notes than you do! But there again if it`s live in front of a real audience......
More once I have had a listen.


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Me? But I`m such a loveable old bugger!