I'm considering moving from PC to Mac and getting the 2.66ghz Imac. I will be running Sonar 7 (obviously on Windows), Superior Drummer 2, wavelab 4, absynth 4 and live 6. I'll be doing mostly audio stuff as opposed to MIDI. Would this machine be a good choice and last me for 2 or 3 years?
The other machine I've been considering is the new Sony Vaio JS1 which is about 300 quid cheaper and offers a better spec.
Any advice? I really can't afford to get this purchase wrong.
Cheers

i use the new imac, 2.8ghz, currently only has 2GB of RAM, but it runs logic and pro tools fine with around 16 tracks(thats the max i'm using at the mo). Some of my effects are done using the liquid mix so there isn;t a massive strain on the CPU though.
I also use superior drummer, and you MUST make sure the samples are set to 16bit if you have 1 or 2 GB of RAM. It'll just hang if they're 24 bit and stutter all the way through.
Even at 16bit it takes a while to get going. I'm maxing out to 4GB after xmas (i had 4GB in my old imac and superior drummer was faultless).
Once you go Mac, you won't go back. They're aesthetically pleasing, and powerhouses for audio/design work.

Hope this helps

i use a 2.66 imac with 2gb RAM mostly running Live and plenty of plug ins and have been very happy with it.
i do commercial work on the machine and apart from having to freeze a few tracks when really upping the plug in count haven't run into any problems and can recommend it

I'm really dubious about the benefits of buying Apple hardware to run windows on. As you rightly point out it is more expensive than a better specced laptop from Sony.

Regarding the problem with Superior Drummer that another poster mentioned, this would probably be an issue for any computer. Apart from having as much RAM as you can get in your machine, I reckon you're probably going to want an external hard drive for audio. Not sure how that would work with the Sony but the iMac has a firewire interface that is ideal for the job.

Cheers,
FMH

Thanks for your help & comments so far!
I would like to have enough power to run up to 32 audio tracks and Superior 2 in 24 bit if possible. From what's been said not sure the Imac would be up to the job? - I would upgrade to 4gb ram pretty much straight away, if finances allow.
I know a lot of people use Macbooks and Macbook pros but I see no advantages over the Imac apart from portability. Would you say you're definitely better running the mac OS with logic on a Mac rather than the Sonar/Windows combination?
Maybe i should be looking at a custom built audio PC to give me the power and extra track count?
Cheers!

My last mac took 10 minutes from opening box to pressing record.
I kid you not.

Still want to "roll your own " ?

Scope, how many audio tracks can you run? I suppose this is really the most important factor.
Cheers!

I have a Core Duo 2.8Ghz/2GB RAM iMac on which I run Logic Pro 8. Had projects with 50/60 audio tracks at 24bit/44.1 running with no problems, that includes EQ/dynamics processing on each track.

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iMac 24" 2.8 Core Duo, 500Gb HD, 2Gb Ram, 15" MacBook Pro 2.53 i7, Focusrite Pro26, Mackie Pro Control, KRK VXT 6's, Focusrite Voicemaster Pro, Rode NTK

Use full info WestCoast, which I think pretty much ends this thread

I recently creating a Logic project on my MacBook Pro 2.5Ghz with 4Gb RAM that had 71 tracks, with binaural panning and binaural post-processing for about 63 of those tracks, and it ran flawlessly. That 2.66Ghz iMac should be just as good if not better, considering the faster bus speed it has.

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MacBook Pro 17" 2.5Ghz 200Gb HDD 4Gb RAM
Focusrite Saffire 4/10 24bit/192kHz

make sure you purchase an external HD, as this can hold all projects, buy another if you want time machine to perform best.

i built a mac using an intel bad axe2 motherboard. installation of leopard was done using a purchased retail install dvd, and a special boot cd called 'boot123'. probably not 100% legal, but not 100% illegal either

http://forum.insanelymac.com/index.php?showtopic=123841

with the cost of ram (4gb £70), Q6600 quad core £100, and 1tb HD's £70, you can see how this setup is far cheaper, even with the inclusion of a 1920x1200dpi 24" monitor. more upgradable too. You may well spend a day or 2 getting the installation right, this being the trade-off. If you're a pc boffin, this might be a fun way go, however i don't recommend this route if you aren't sure.

Not to forget quad-core performance, it'll handle anything i throw at it with ease.

Thanks for all your help and comments!
Stickybud, unfortunately I haven't got the patience to build my own otherwise this may have been the way to go. It looks like the Imac should give me sufficient power to do what I want (at the moment). However.......i've just seen a Packard Bell PC for less than half the price of the Mac with the following spec:
Intel® Core 2 Quad Q8200 processor
2.33GHz, 1333MHz FSB, 4MB Cache
4GB DDR2 667MHz RAM
640GB SATA hard drive (7200rpm)

Any comments?

If you're on a budget, go for an Apple refurb. The base iMac is £782 new or £645 refurb - you still get the standard warranty and Apple refurbs are pretty highly regarded.

As regards the PC vs Mac price issue, personally I reckon a Mac works out cheaper in the long run - things are quicker and easier with a Mac.

You can buy a PC for less than a Mac.
But then you have to spend a lot of time making it work properly and then maintain it.
Then you need to add in the extras like virus protection etc.
Add to this the fact that Windows computers ALWAYS need more power than Macs ( see the system recommends on software boxes ), you are clearly buying a system that is less efficient and thus requires more power to match a Mac.

( Just as an off shoot - I have ben installing Unix servers for a large high street company.
Their Tech department decided to switch to Windows Server and instantly the hardware had to double in power to meet the demands of the new OS - what a waste !! )


Over the typical lifespan of a computer I think the PC works out roughly the same.
The significant different is how you use your time.
There can be no doubt that the Mac is far, far, FAR simpler, where as Windows demands effort.
If you have both the time and skill then you shall not have any worries.

Personally, I have become fed-up with this approach.
I prefer to buy a pice of it that works the way it should, from the off.
The truth is I cant afford to spend hours buggering about with XP, with is millions of tweeks.
It simply is not an effective use of my time.
If I loose a day to a computer is goes in the bin.
In short, I don't have time for crap.

Don't get me wrong, I don't buy into the "Apple are closer to the sun and walk on water" BS.

Logic 8 is a close-thing for me - it has failed at crucial moments.
Thank god for Protools.

Thankfully the OS is the best one out there.
I use a Mac simply because is works, that is all I need, nothing more and crucially, nothing less.

Will an Intel iMac do the job ?
Is the Pope Catholic ?

I dont agree with the whole 'it just works' reasoning, quite often it doesnt and needs major fiddling at least as much as a PC.

If you are not using Logic then I feel PC is way to go for cost/performance.
I just built my first PC with help from this forum and it was a breeze and (touch wood) stable as anything.
The other good thing with self build is you know exactly whats on there and only need to install what you require, none of them bloody widgets!

That said we have a 24"Imac as an edit machine running Final Cut Pro and works perfectly with HD footage which prob uses more resources than most DAWs. Its a 4gig RAM....

Quote Badeshi:

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I dont agree with the whole 'it just works' reasoning, quite often it doesnt and needs major fiddling at least as much as a PC.

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That is just plain rubbish, it might not be perfect but more often than not it does 'just work' and it is a million times better than Windows in that regard.

I once spent 6 months trying to get my mobile phone to sync properly with Windows - the address book, calendar, to do's etc and I never managed to get it working. When I got my Mac, I put my phone next to it and turned on bluetooth, after about 5 mouse clicks and 30 seconds it was synced perfectly. With my iPhone it was even easier, just check a few boxes in iTunes and it was job done.

OK, that example isn't relevant to music but it is a good example of how Mac's 'just work' and you get similar experiences with everything you use and do. Its this kind of functionality that makes a Mac worth every penny for me.

Rumours of new iMacs in January.

a bit of a mac v pc debate going on...

i just switched to mac, but i came very close to buying a pc. i managed to get a really good deal on a macbook, but if i hadn't i would have built a pc for myself.

personally, i wouldn't really see the point of buying a mac to run windows specifically. the mac will then need to have the same maintenance performed like any other pc (eg spyware, anti-virus etc etc)

if you are going to use sonar, i'd recommend using a pc. the recent synergy music pcs on sale at digital village got excellent reviews in a recent issue of sound on sound.

http://www.dv247.com/synergy/

the great thing about pc's, is that if something does go wrong (hardware) things are generally fairly easy to resolve in a short period of time.

like a poster above, i would recommend getting a mac if you do plan to use software which is mac only, but otherwise i'd go for a pc (for the fact of sonar is planned to be used....)

I am trying to work out what "just as much fiddling" actually involves.
I mean, there isn't that much to actually do, on a Mac.

Set the CPU to max, turn of power saving,
more recently - make sure time machine is off.
Plug in your core audio compliant interface ( no drivers needed ! )

err, thats it as far as I can see

Oh, install Logic.
sorry forgot that one.

Don't recall my last PC being that easy.

If you plan on sticking with Sonar then a Mac would be a bad idea, being able to run Windows apps is a bonus but isn't ideal for running them all the time.

Having said that, when I got my Mac I planned on using it for just a few specific things with my PC staying as my main computer. But within two weeks I'd moved everything over to the Mac and sold the PC.

Could you cope without Sonar? Could you use just Live or could you switch to Logic?

Quote jonny72:

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If you plan on sticking with Sonar then a Mac would be a bad idea, being able to run Windows apps is a bonus but isn't ideal for running them all the time.

Having said that, when I got my Mac I planned on using it for just a few specific things with my PC staying as my main computer. But within two weeks I'd moved everything over to the Mac and sold the PC.

Could you cope without Sonar? Could you use just Live or could you switch to Logic?

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+1

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Matt
www.krcollective.org

Thanks again for all your comments!
Sonar is now out the picture as I've just received the factory sealed copy of V7 Producer I bought off ebay to find out that it's an 'Evaluation copy'and by all accounts this is unusable! first time I've been 'done' on ebay - Merry Xmas!
Anyway, as I'm no longer committed to Sonar, this may be the time to switch to Logic which makes the Mac an even more obvious choice.
At the end of the day I need a machine that just works, gets me up and running as soon as possible (with as little faffing about as possible) and will last 3 or 4 years. I'm a musician and a songwriter first and foremost.......well I'm sure you get the picture?

Sounds to me like you really need the Mac and Logic. I was in a very similar position to you (migrated from Sonar too) and I absolutely love it. Have a small niggle with my interface at the moment (which I think is a Roland driver issue) but other than that it's been 12 months of simple and hassle-free music making.

Logic is awesome for what I want to do, is easy to use, looks great and comes with awesome sounds and plugs. I much prefer it to Sonar and I'd recommend Logic + Mac to anyone.

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www.mikeandersonmusic.co.uk

Quote veloson78:

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Thanks again for all your comments!
Sonar is now out the picture as I've just received the factory sealed copy of V7 Producer I bought off ebay to find out that it's an 'Evaluation copy'and by all accounts this is unusable! first time I've been 'done' on ebay - Merry Xmas!
Anyway, as I'm no longer committed to Sonar, this may be the time to switch to Logic which makes the Mac an even more obvious choice.
At the end of the day I need a machine that just works, gets me up and running as soon as possible (with as little faffing about as possible) and will last 3 or 4 years. I'm a musician and a songwriter first and foremost.......well I'm sure you get the picture?

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If it was mis-sold on eBay ask the seller for a refund and if they don't agree quickly, put a claim in through PayPal and you should get your money back.

Sounds like a Mac is the way for you to go. If you do, when it comes to buying Logic get it on eBay - just buy from someone reputable and you should get it for no more than £180 (which has to be the music bargain of the century and something you should factor in to the total cost of switching to a Mac).

Quote Scope:

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You can buy a PC for less than a Mac.
But then you have to spend a lot of time making it work properly and then maintain it.
Then you need to add in the extras like virus protection etc.
Add to this the fact that Windows computers ALWAYS need more power than Macs ( see the system recommends on software boxes ), you are clearly buying a system that is less efficient and thus requires more power to match a Mac.

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Baring in mind that for half the price of an imac you can buy a PC with more than twice the power this isn't really an issue and I don't think taking the figures off a box is a particularly scientific method. The tweeks you make for a PC and Mac are pretty much the same, turn off power saving etc. I have both Macs and PCs and the crunch for me at the moment is that there doesn't seem to be much confidence going around that 64 bit Windows drivers will be supported by many 3rd parties. There's a new version of Windows out soon and that will probably throw more spanners into the works. Now that Apple own Logic, OSX has a strong focus on working well for media apps. For the record I still run cubase on Windows as my main DAW and it's rock solid.

I used to tech for a Music college and the computers were my area.
I should point out that I have been using Macs since OS-5 and Windows since "Windows" came out (-IE pre Win3.x )
I was responsible for a computer suite and all the individual ( networked ) computers, both Mac and PC.


What tweeks do you do on the Mac that match the PC ??
I am sorry but in my experience, that argument simply does not stack up.

So the obvious next question is just how much did you have to do to get your rock solid system on Windows ?
I have a list of essential tweeks for Windows, and eventully created an app to do most of them for me during down-time re-installs - again absolutly vital for healthy PCs.
The Macs required very little in the way of maintenance - which is just as well as the PCs were a pain in the back-side, but then they were subjected to attack from the students ( and everyone's an expert- sure ! ).

( At least they did not know how the Mac worked so were not able to screw it up ).

I've just been reading a review of Logic Studio 8 on Macworld.com and according to the reviewer:

"Logic Pro 8 made heavier demands on the hardware, which in practice meant fewer available tracks. On a stock MacBook Pro or iMac you’ll be able to squeeze eight to 12 tracks from the software, although slower machines with slower disks may struggle with even that. This is fine for demos, but professionals may feel limited."

8 to 12 tracks!? Is this true? Just when I'd virtually decided on the Imac + Logic..........I need at least 32 audio tracks so it looks like I'm back to the drawing board?!

I have a first gen Macbook Pro, 2gHz dual core and 2gb RAM, and I've mixed a song with 36 audio tracks, sounds a bit overreactive to me.

I agree. I run LP8 on a first gen macbook pro as well, and I've mixed 32 tracks with headroom to spare. Just make sure you up the RAM to 2GB or more, and you should have no problems

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www.exaviormusic.com
www.manninmusic.com Music Teacher, Isle of Man

I was given an iMac for Xmas by a very good customer - neat gift really.

So I shot out and bought the Logic Pro 8 up-grade for my EXS dongle (5.51) I ran Logic on a PC and migrated to Cubase 4 on a new PC quad workstation with PoCo and UAD.

OSX is a bit of a shock (nightmare really)coming from Windows XP - no cut and paste - stuff like that and boy the GUI feels SO SLOW!

My main problem is the 1680x1050 resolution of the 20" iMac screen, it's just too small for Logic Pro - it makes it feel like Creator on an Atari (in fact the whole OSX experience took me back 20 years to my Atari) thing is if you try to change the resolution Logic looks too fuzzy. Mmmh.

Anyway I must say Logic Pro 8 is fun in the sounds dept and the iMac (2.33GHZ 2GB RAM) can easly handle lots of software tracks and audio/plugins. Definately up to a great demo.

However when I go to my Cubase/ Quadcore XP system - sheesh it's just so much more responsive and fast to use.
This is my first experience with a Mac OS ever and has made me appreciate Windows XP all over again - not the expereice I was expecting.

However - thumbs up for Logic Pro 8 on an iMac, really a cool combo. If you not in a hurry LOL.

Trebor

Quote Trebor Flow:

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OSX is a bit of a shock (nightmare really)coming from Windows XP - no cut and paste - stuff like that and boy the GUI feels SO SLOW!

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No cut and paste in OS X? Oh dear. Sounds like somebody needs to actually learn to use the OS properly before passing judgement.

You may be surprised to learn, that many of the windows keyboard shortcuts can be replicated in OS X by using the CMD (or Apple symbol on an older machine) key instead of CTRL.

And as for the GUI being slow - perhaps XP with every graphical enhancement turned off (so it looks like Win98/2000) is a little faster, but OS X looks far more pleasant to me.

I use Logic Pro and Pro Tools on my 15" Macbook Pro with problems reading the display at all. The 20" screen is more than ample for Logic Pro.

I should add - I am bilingual, happily using both XP and OS X on my Macbook Pro. I do all of my audio / music work under OS X, but there are other apps I use which are Windows-only.

Edited by mcguirk (26/12/08 11:55 PM)

Quote Trebor Flow:

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coming from Windows XP - no cut and paste

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Eh? I first learnt cut'n'paste - on a Mac

that was back in 1988, long before 'windows' was thought of...

Quote Trebor Flow:

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and boy the GUI feels SO SLOW!

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Something wrong there.

OSX GUI here is greased-lightning...

Quote Trebor Flow:

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My main problem is the 1680x1050 resolution of the 20" iMac screen, it's just too small for Logic Pro - it makes it feel like Creator on an Atari (in fact the whole OSX experience took me back 20 years to my Atari) thing is if you try to change the resolution Logic looks too fuzzy. Mmmh.

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Fraid that's a pretty standard resolution for a 20" screen. A higher res at that size would be too small for most people. Perhaps you need a bigger screen? Your current iMac can drive a 2nd screen upto 1920x1200.

As you've found, you can't usefullly change the resolution - anything other than the native res of the panel will look complete sh*it. Be aware that's a fundamental aspect of all LCD monitors - it has nothing to do with Mac hardware, OSX or Logic etc.

Wrong.

My Samsung 20" monitor looks great at less than the native resolution - theiMac looks terrible at less than the native resolution.

From reading Apple forums my understanding is that you CANNOT cut and paste in OSX only copy and paste then drag to the trash - please explain how to CUT and paste to a folder - the cut part of the edit menu is always greyed out on my iMac when copying!

OK - how do you turn off all the animated graphics on OSX so that it feels snappy like XP - I'd like to turn it off.
I listen to music with my ears - I don't give a stuff how it looks (as long as it's big enough)

Finally having my own OSX machine allows me my own opinion of OSX - I'm sorry if it doesn't agree with yours :-)

Not everyone who uses OSX is a Mac head, when Apple bought Emagic they new it was the ONLY way they would get people like myself using OSX, if Logic Pro was still on PC, I would of given the iMac to my kids, but Logic 8 is a cool tool for writing, no doubt about it.

Trebor

Edited by Trebor Flow (27/12/08 09:03 AM)

There are other issues here too.
The iMac has always had a lower spec graphics card
- so I am willing to bet this chaps' quad core has a better one ?

Certainly my quad core MacPro will cream any iMac and I bet this guy is comparing different technology.

I have always found OX-S to be quick given enough power to run.
The OS off-loads graphics from the CPU on to the graphics processor.
In Windows, the CPU is involved in graphics generation, as well as the card
Try running Vista at full rez ( so it looks like OS -X ) and see what I mean.
Most 'home" PCs can't actually do this hence the many different versions of Vista.

As for cut and paste - hahahahahaha !
listen mate,
Mac= original
Windows = copy

99% of Windows is a copy of the Mac Os.
Mac is top right
Windows is bottom left

Apple &...
Control &.....

Dual screens 1988 ( actually multi screens )
Dual screen Win98 ( Vista does multi screens nearly 20 years later. )

Widgets
Gadgets

Ms do not have an original thought in their heads.

And it shows......

Oh - I think Trebor means cut and "paste" of files. On the Mac, cut is normally used for bits of text, and other partial things like audio snippets or graphics objects[1]. Whereas whole files are moved or copied by dragging in the Finder[2].

Personally I find the concept of "cutting" a file kinda counterintuitive - but some Windows heads seem have gotten used to it.


[1] In much the same way as one did in the real world with scissors.

[2] In the real world, nothing was "cut" (or pasted) when you moved a "file".

That this thread is veering towards a certain debate is inevitable. However, like our friend, I'm a PC musician using (but not joined at the hip to) Cubase. My interest in the new iMacs is closely related to my interest in cut-price Logic 8 and how this combination is looking increasingly attractive to PC/XP users who just can't commit to Vista. An iMac/Logic 8 combo appears to offer serious bang for the buck, provided the typical PC musician can stop being a VST freeware slut.
So my techie question - How are people getting on with the IMac's firewire port? (I've got a M_Audio FW410)

To revert back to my original question, I would say that from what has been said here, yes it's good but I'm still unsure it will give me the glitch free recording process I'm seeking - or maybe that's just computers for you, whatever the 'breed'?

Quote veloson78:

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To revert back to my original question, I would say that from what has been said here, yes it's good but I'm still unsure it will give me the glitch free recording process I'm seeking - or maybe that's just computers for you, whatever the 'breed'?

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Yes it will.
I do exactly that.