hello there
i do all my mixing within logic pro and have no outboard gear.
basicly i wonder if its possible to make the final mix louder without putting the output track to like +6db ..i dnt apply any effetcs 2 the main stereo outs as i feel that it just takes away all the mixing ive done...advice please.a mulitipressor maybe??
just when i listen 2 my music compared 2 a commercial release it sounds alot quiter...thank you

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http://www.myspace.com/musicpagedavidlee

Edited by parmit (08/01/09 10:37 AM)

Hi Parmit, and welcome to the forum.

If you use the search function here you'll find many, many posts, on this subject (apart from 'mastering', try 'buss compression', 'limiting', 'loudness', and 'gain structure' ) along with quite a few discussions on the 'loudness war' and the often deleterious effect it has on modern recordings.

To be more direct - normally, folk use some kind of limiting or compression across the output buss to try to raise the gain without peaks causing trouble, and Logic offers a couple of options- try either the multiband compressor or the adaptive limiter, both of which will give you a higher level, but at some compromise over the sound. Multiband compression, especially, needs some pretty careful handling to avoid ruining your mix. Careful attention to gain structure (how you put together mix levels) in the first place is usually essential, and the general rule of thumb is to mix so that your output levels are peaking somewhere around -6db, and then apply limiting and/or compression across the mix file later to raise the gain.

The (much discussed...) plug-in Waves L2 limiter (and later versions) is the culprit - or hero - of many of the modern recordings you may be comparing your mix with. It can certainly raise levels to the point where the resulting file looks like a brick, and sounds, quite frankly, [ ****** ] ... and it's worth asking yourself whether you really need to raise your track levels to the point of many modern recordings (which sound, as said.. like [ ****** ]). The middle way is often the best !

Do a search, read a lot, and try a few things out with Logic's tools. Trial and error will teach you a lot.

Best of luck

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http://anotherfineday.bandcamp.com/ http://anotherfineday.co.uk http://apollomusic.co.uk

You need one of these. They are available in various formats...

Quote ::Bruno:::

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You need one of <a href="/sos/may06/articles/ptworkshop_0506.htm" target="_blank">these</a>. They are available in various formats...

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This article is still pretty informative, but there have been more such plug-ins released since then, and it wasn't an exhaustive list either - it only included plug-ins that come in PT format (TDM/RTAS); not those in AU/VST format. It excludes the excellent UA Precision Limiter for example (not to mention their more recent Precision Maximizer).

But even if you pick the right tool for the job, as the previous poster suggested, it's something to be done with caution as even if you do want to push the levels: the maximizer plug-ins work best if you've tweaked and sweetened everything as you want before the signal goes in. And definitely don't apply it on your final bounce from Logic... bounce the mix and then tweak for loudness separately; and do it after you've had a break from the mixing, and alongside some reference tracks so you can keep things in perspective. Otherwise you will inevitably overcook things.

oh ryt ok just u tryed 2 make my main output peak at 0.0db

but im going to try and make it peak at -6db then apply a multipressor...with this applyed should it then hit 0.0 db??

thank you

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http://www.myspace.com/musicpagedavidlee

so i guess my question now is should my final mix be at 0.0db??

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http://www.myspace.com/musicpagedavidlee

Quote parmit:

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so i guess my question now is should my final mix be at 0.0db??

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Hi parmit. the answer is no..... -0.3 . according to the pro mastering engineers on here, -0.3 seems to be the magic number. certainly the .3 wont make it noticeably quieter.

just as a side note...spend as much time with a good equalizer as possible, before even thinking about compression or limiting/maximizing. gotta make it neat and small before making it big and fat ;-)

Tone

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Ask not what your tools can do for you.....instead, ask what you can do with your tools

Quote PURE-TONE:

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the answer is no..... -0.3 . according to the pro mastering engineers on here, -0.3 seems to be the magic number. certainly the .3 wont make it noticeably quieter.

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There is good reason for leaving some headroom. Many reasons, in fact. Chiefly, that less well-designed D/A stages such as those in hi-fis can clip even if the peak level is some way below 0dBFS or a digital OVER. This is because the converter will try to reconstruct the crest of a peak lying between two near-full scale samples and will have no headroom to spare. -0.3 is a somewhat arbitrary number, to the best of my knowledge. Even having a limiter set to peak at -0.3 could still lead to the occasional clip in this way. An intersample peak meter (such as SSL's handy freeware one) will alert you of any such problems.

You're essentially right. 0.3dB difference will not be noticeable. But you will still need to apply the limiter in a very heavy-handed manner to match up to the majority of CDs from the last few years in terms of sheer loudness. And you won't have the advantage of the polish that comes from a ME's tools and experience, resulting in a mix that might outwardly compare in sheer volume but will be way off the mark qualitatively. Far better to go about it the 'normal' way, getting the sound as tonally desirable first and not being at all anxious about absolute loudness.

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James Percival
Ondes Audio

If you want louder, TURN UP THE WELLY!

Don't ruin your music using the assumption that volume controls have all been super-glued to a low setting.

They haven't.

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PA stuff on FB

Personally, I try to get everything sounding as good as I possibly can without paying TOO much attention to the output levels (obviously, if it's clipping all over the shop things need pulling down, but apart from that, let your ears guide you). Get the mix right so that everything can be heard as much as it needs to be, and nothing's overpowering anything else.

THEN I have a listen to some material in the same kind of idiom to what I'm mixing. If it's ludicrously louder than what I've produced, I have a tendancy to slam an equaliser, compressor and limiter across the output bus and tweak to taste.

This of course is providing that there'll be no mastering later on, as an ME won't thank you for a track that's hitting 0dBFS every few seconds.

In the amateur / semi-pro field it's well worth having two versions of an arrangement saved, in my opinion - one that sounds as good as you can get it, all mixed together nicely, that's nowhere near digital clipping (-6dBFS maximum) with nothing on the output bus, and another with some subtle EQ, a compressor and a limiter on the output bus. The former will sound quiet, even weedy, next to commercial stuff, but since you've left the headroom a mastering engineer with the tools and the room will probably be able to make it sound really good. The latter (in my experience) will make the client happy, as it's at a similar level to a 'proper' CD, but still won't have that extra 5% that a good mastering can give to your well-mixed 'quiet' track.

I've been using T-Racks 3 mastering suite for a little while now, and I'm very impressed with it. It can make your mixes damn loud, should you wish, but more importantly than that, it sounds great.

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www.thediplomatz.com

Quote The_Big_Piano_Player:

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I've been using T-Racks 3 mastering suite for a little while now, and I'm very impressed with it. It can make your mixes damn loud, should you wish, but more importantly than that, it sounds great.

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+1 immediately the presets make such a difference in loudness and clarity....not an OTT loudness but it really makes a pleasing change if you use bypassing to hear the difference.

The Adaptive Limiter in Logic will make it louder.

ken

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I'm All Ears.

if your mix is well balanced then it is a lot easier to acheive loudness if that is what you want. If it is not balanced then not matter how much limiting etc you apply it will still not be as loud as commercial recordings and will not sound very good.

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Alex Ivory
http://www.ivorymastering.com