Morning!

I am trying to use a digital piano as a master keyboard for Cubase AI4 – the version which comes with the Yamaha N12. I have the midi out running through a kurzweil micropiano and from there into the midi input of the N12. When I load a virtual instrument I can play it using the digital piano, but if I try and record, the notes don’t get recorded. I can hear what I am trying to record, but the notes aren’t recorded. I also have an Oxygen8 controller keyboard connected via USB, and if I try and record with this it works fine.

I am new to Cubase having only started using it since buying the N12 last year, so haven’t got my head round it fully yet – I have previously been using an old version of Logic with which I didn’t experience this problem. I am unsure whether it is an issue with the N12, or with the midi set-up in Cubase.

If anybody has any thoughts/suggestions I would be most appreciative!

Thanks,
Chris

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Christopher Davison - Singer Songwriter and Electroacoustic Composer

You are recording onto a MIDI track, aren't you? If you are using an audio track then nothing will be recorded.

Also make sure you have the track switched into playback (as opposed to input monitoring - the tiny brown speaker icon).

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An Eagle for an Emperor, A Kestrel for a Knave.

Hi Elf,

I'm not recording into an audio track, I'm recording directly into the virtual instrument track, which I assume would be midi. I will have to check the playback/input monitoring setting, although I don't think it would be this as I can record into the track using the Oxygen8, just not with the digital piano.

Thanks,
Chris

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Christopher Davison - Singer Songwriter and Electroacoustic Composer

Are you otherwise able to record a normal MIDI track? Because that's all you'll actually be doing -- Cubase is just recording the notes from your controller keyboard, and the virtual instrument plays no part in this recording process.

If you want those notes to also be playing the virtual instrument at the same time, so you hear how they sound, then you need to set the output of your MIDI track to go to the virtual instrument.

>I'm recording directly into the virtual instrument track, which I assume would be midi.

No, it isn't a MIDI track. It give you various controls over the virtual instrument, such as volume and pan, but you can't record onto it. In fact I'm surprised that you think you can, as there's no record button -- are you maybe talking about the MIDI track that gets created at the same time (if your Preferences are set up that way)? Either that, or Cubase AI works differently to the normal Cubase.

Try this sequence:

1. Load your virtual instrument.

2. Set up a new MIDI track.

3. Set the MIDI input source on this MIDI track to be your controller keyboard.

4. Set the output on this MIDI track to be the virtual instrument, so that it will be controlled by this MIDI track.

5. Enable record on the MIDI track.

6. Play the controller keyboard - you should now (a) hear the virtual instrument (if you don't, make sure its MIDI input channel matches the keyboard's MIDI output channel); and (b) see the MIDI input indicator on that MIDI track going up and down in response to your playing.

7. If all is well, you can now record.

As you can see, using virtual isntruments in Cubase is a bit of a faff.

Edited by Scramble (15/01/09 10:57 AM)

Hi Scramble,

Thanks for the advice, I'll try this when I get home.

Perhaps I am talking about the midi track, though it does look quite similar a midi track (I have a standard midi track for drums (Alesis DM5) which I am currently programming via the piano roll editor) and there is a 'record ready' button on this track. Again I should highlight that playing on the Oxygen8 DOES record the notes, whereas playing on the digital piano DOES NOT record the notes - the track does accept note data but only seemingly from my USB oxygen8, not from the midi input of the N12. Though both allow me to just play the virtual instrument and hear what I'm playing.

I hope I'm explaining this clearly!

Thanks for your help so far,
Chris

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Christopher Davison - Singer Songwriter and Electroacoustic Composer

Quote -Chris-:

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Again I should highlight that playing on the Oxygen8 DOES record the notes, whereas playing on the digital piano DOES NOT record the notes - the track does accept note data but only seemingly from my USB oxygen8, not from the midi input of the N12. Though both allow me to just play the virtual instrument and hear what I'm playing.

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Odd. Are you perhaps monitoring from a different track than the one you are set to record on? You can leave any track switched in monitor-enable without being focussed on it as your recording track. This would definitely give the symptoms you describe.

I have four MIDI keyboards, and I actually use this ability to have them each playing a different virtual instrument at the same time (each track listening to a specific incoming MIDI port, set to monitor-enable and pointing to its own VSTi), but they will not record unless I set each track to record-enable. I also leave a MIDI track monitor-enabled while recording with other musicians, to play examples of vocal harmony ideas, or check tunings.

Check which tracks you have in monitor-enable and which incoming MIDI ports they are listening to. I'd suggest clearing all the monitor-enable flags then working through again from there. Hopefully you'll spot something as you go through.

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An Eagle for an Emperor, A Kestrel for a Knave.

>Thanks for the advice, I'll try this when I get home.

Why do people ask these questions when they're not sitting down in front of their DAW, ready to go?

I repeat that the virtual instrument side of it is irrelevant if all you're actually trying to do is record MIDI from an external keyboard. You need to make sure first of all that you can do this. Don't worry about the virtual instrument to start with, just establish that you can set up a MIDI track which will detect the notes from your external keyboard and record them.

All you have to do then is set this MIDI track to send to the virtual instrument, so that you can hear it at the same time.

I'm actually puzzled as to how you can hear the virtual instrument at all if you haven't got this all set up properly to start with. You need to explain in more detail what you've done -- but then you really need to be sitting down in front of it and not at work.

Quote Scramble:

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>Thanks for the advice, I'll try this when I get home.

Why do people ask these questions when they're not sitting down in front of their DAW, ready to go?

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Normally I would, but as I currently have no functioning internet connection at home, I would find it somewhat challenging!

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Christopher Davison - Singer Songwriter and Electroacoustic Composer

Okay, well, can you remember whether you've ever been able to record MIDI from this keyboard -- not the USB one -- before?

Not on Cubase. I had the same set-up working fine in Logic (piano>micropiano>soundcard (Edirol FA-101 at the time)) but since I have bought the N12 I have been doing pure audio projects with midi drums, which I don't input by keyboard. I've only started using a couple of virtual instruments again recently.

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Christopher Davison - Singer Songwriter and Electroacoustic Composer

Right, so the first thing to do is to get this keyboard recording with Cubase. Set up a MIDI track, set the input of this track to be the MIDI interface that this keyboard is connected to, enable record on that track, press some keys and see if the track is detecting anything -- the track's input meter bar should go up when you press a key. Don't worry at this stage about virtual instruments, just get that working.

You should also see MIDI activity detected on the transport bar (if AI works like regular Cubase).

I created a new midi track and set the input to be the digital piano, which is going to the midi input of the audio interface. There is midi activity indicated both on the transport bar and on the midi track itself. If I set the output to the channel my drum module is on I can hear what I am playing. When I try and record, however, although it is not recording what I am playing, I have noticed that it is actually recording something - but not everything. It is recording every note I play, but creates every note the same length and on the very first beat of the first bar. The note length is the default note length when editing on the piano roll editor (1/16th note I believe).

If I change the input to be the USB device it records fine, recording not only the notes, but also the note length, velocity and timing(bar/beat position) as it should.

I have bypassed the micropiano and even plugged a different midi keyboard in but I still get the same result. I'm starting to think that it could be a problem with the N12's midi input perhaps?

Any thoughts would be much appreciated!

Chris

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Christopher Davison - Singer Songwriter and Electroacoustic Composer

At least you've now narrowed it down.

Have you got the latest drivers for the N12? It sounds like there's a bug in there somewhere.

This isn't an answer, but try fiddling with the quantise/auto-quantise options and see if that makes any difference.

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An Eagle for an Emperor, A Kestrel for a Knave.

The only update I can find on Yamaha's website is for a firewire firmware update. As this is how the N12 connects to the computer I guess there is potential for it to help, I'll see if I can find out what the latest drivers are.

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Christopher Davison - Singer Songwriter and Electroacoustic Composer

It will hopefully be a quantize issue - try turning quantize off.

However, if your other USB keyboard is recording MIDI fine then it probably isn't.

Could be a problem with the MIDI interface, but that's a strange problem to have (but as Elf says, try updating the driver).

If you can get hold of another MIDI interface, even temporarily, that will tell you a lot -- if your keyboards work with that then you know the problem is with your MIDI interface. If they don't, then the problem is internal to your computer or Cubase.

Could explain more fully how your MIDI is connected up? It's not very clear from your first post. How exactly (and I mean in great detail) is your digital piano getting its MIDI signals to the computer? What MIDI interface are you using, and does it connect to a USB port, for example? And what exactly is each piece of gear in the chain?

Hi Scramble,

Unfortunately I don't have another midi interface to hand but have managed to find some driver updates for everything, so I'll patch everything tonight and see if that makes a difference.

Connectivity wise, the midi out port from the digital piano (Orla DP1-Plus) is connected to the midi input on the Kurzweil Micropiano sound module. The out/thru of the Micropiano is plugged into the midi input of my audio interface, a Yamaha n12. The n12 is connected to the PC via firewire. I'm sure it's not relevant but the midi out from the n12 just goes to an Alesis DM5 drum module.

The Oxygen8 is completely seperate as it plugs into a USB port and is available as a seperate midi interface in Cubase.

Far from a complicated set-up I'm sure you'll agree!

Chris

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Christopher Davison - Singer Songwriter and Electroacoustic Composer

If you can play a virtual instrument within Cubase okay using your gear then in theory that should mean that the MIDI interface is working okay. So I suspect that it is a quantize issue that only applies to what gets recorded. Try that first before the driver update.

Also see if the problems persist when you plug the controller keyboard straight into the N12 -- I suspect it will, but it's worth a try to see if the MicroPiano is causing a problem.

*This isn't connected with your current problem, but something to look at later...*

That's a slightly odd connection system for the MIDI devices. From what you suggest you can't play back either your piano or Micropiano via MIDI. I would do it (assuming everything has a MIDI thru port) like this:

Orla Piano MIDI out > N12 MIDI in
N12 MIDI output > Orla Piano MIDI in
Orla Piano MIDI thru > Micropiano MIDI in
Micropiano MIDI thru > Alesis DM5 MIDI in

You need to set separate MIDI channels for all the gear, and set MIDI local off in the piano. This chain would let you use all your hardware from your sequencer.

Not something to try until you get your current troubles sorted though!

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An Eagle for an Emperor, A Kestrel for a Knave.

I've already tried by-passing the micropiano, and indeed the situation didn't improve. Quantization has been mentioned a couple of times and I haven't even looked at the quantize settings in Cubase yet so there could be something strange going on there. I'll check before I upgrade anything. I'm doubtful though as any quantize settings should affect all midi interfaces, not just the n12.

We shall see!

Chris

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Christopher Davison - Singer Songwriter and Electroacoustic Composer

Hi Elf,

Thanks for the tip, in retrospect this does make more sense so once I've got this issue resolved I'll give this a go!

I have looked at the quantize settings and everything looks ok to me:



If there is anywhere else I should be checking let me know.

I have also applied all updates available from Yamaha, which are a firmware update for the firewire interface, driver update for the n12, an update for Cubase AI and an update for the integration between the n12 and Cubase.

I checked the problem after each update but, even after all updates had been applied and the PC had been restarted, the problem was still present.

Time to contact Yamaha I guess!

Chris

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Christopher Davison - Singer Songwriter and Electroacoustic Composer

Hmmm...

First thing is to try moving all those quantise settings to just see what difference, if any, it makes. What you're trying to do is to see if you can kick-start something that may be causing the problem.

After that, yes, I think it could well be a call to Yamaha.

You could also try one of those 5 quid MIDI/USB interfaces. You can usually find them on eBay.

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An Eagle for an Emperor, A Kestrel for a Knave.

Changing the quantize settings doesn't make any difference, other than changing the duration of the notes it records at the beginning of the track. Below is a picture of this, in case it's of any use!



I tried to record the first half of the Cmajor scale (C-G) one note after the other, and this is how it is recorded into Cubase.

I looked up the telephone number for Yamaha's support: Monday to Friday, 9am to 5pm (4.30pm on Friday). That's helpful when I work from 8:30-5 Monday to Friday!! E-mail it is then, unless I take a day of work just to call Yamaha!

Chris

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Christopher Davison - Singer Songwriter and Electroacoustic Composer

Solved!

For those who are interested I stumbled across the solution whilst reading this article by Martin Walker: Solving MIDI Timing Problems

I had to tick 'Use System Timestamp for 'Windows MIDI' inputs' and all now works fine.

Thanks to The Elf and Scramble for their help.

Cheers,
Chris

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Christopher Davison - Singer Songwriter and Electroacoustic Composer

I don't think that would have occurred to me! That's a very extreme symptom of the timestamping problem.

Glad you got yourself sorted out, man. You can be proud of that bit of diagnostics (and so can Martin, for an article that saves lives week after week)!

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An Eagle for an Emperor, A Kestrel for a Knave.

Quite often the answer does lie somewhere in a MW article.