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Pitchfork
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VST's that sound like Korg Trinity?
      #770648 - 16/09/09 08:52 AM
Listening the Jon Hopkins albums especially "Contact Note" and the latest one..Inisdes - and in a SoS interview he said he used his old Korg Trinity for the synth sounds..

The pads and sounds on these albums are soo lush!

Surely in this day and age there is something that can sound as good if not better than a Trinity from 1996(?)

Are there any VST's anyone recommends? I have Absynth 4..

I think the pads sound warm, lush and thick but dont take up much space within the mix which maybe a Trinity strong point?

Most VST's today throw everything in to make a BIG preset which is a little unuseable in a mix

Is there a "thin sounding" for want of a better word! VST that can do lush pads like this?


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Mr Spanky
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Re: VST's that sound like Korg Trinity? new [Re: Pitchfork]
      #770665 - 16/09/09 09:36 AM
How about something like this?

http://www.sampleoidz.co.uk/shop/index.php?_a=viewProd&productId=51


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The Pearl Works



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Re: VST's that sound like Korg Trinity? new [Re: Pitchfork]
      #770675 - 16/09/09 10:12 AM
Korg are pad masters! I've got a 01R/W amongst my collection and it still sounds fantastic today. I've also got the Korg Legacy Digital Collection VSTi's. This consists of the M1 and Wavestation. The Wavestation IMO is the ultimate pad machine but you have to spend time programming it. I've also got Spectrasonics Atmosphere, which does have fab sounding pads but it isn't a real programmers synth.

I've been keeping my eye out for a Korg TR-Rack (Trinity in a 1U rack). You can pick them up for under £200 these days. There's one in the SOS classifieds at the moment for £139...but it's too far away for me to consider. It's a bargain for someone else though!


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The Elf
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Re: VST's that sound like Korg Trinity? new [Re: Pitchfork]
      #770685 - 16/09/09 10:30 AM
I'd be surprised if you can't get what you want out of Absynth 4. If you're jabbing at the presets you might well be disappointed though. All it needs is some careful programming.

I've used Absynth for pads alongside my collection of real analogues and it can do a pretty good job - certainly up to the standard to match a 90s digital synth.

First time I've seen Korg heralded as 'pad masters' - I thought that honour might more deservingly go to Roland or Oberheim!

As alluded to, great pads are not always about huge sound in isolation. My Oberheim Xpander sounds phenominal in isolation, but needs space in a mix to allow its pads to breath (but when they do, oh wow!), but a less impressive Roland Jupiter pad sits very nicely and actually sounds bigger in a mix without dominating.

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The Pearl Works



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Re: VST's that sound like Korg Trinity? new [Re: The Elf]
      #770694 - 16/09/09 10:45 AM
I mean intricate, evolving, atmospheric pads. Not the big fat wall of sounds the Obie and Roland are great for. :-)


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The Elf
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Re: VST's that sound like Korg Trinity? new [Re: The Pearl Works]
      #770697 - 16/09/09 10:49 AM
Quote The Pearl Works:

I mean intricate, evolving, atmospheric pads. Not the big fat wall of sounds the Obie and Roland are great for. :-)



Ah! The reason I keep a Wavestation SR in my rack!

Touche, dude.

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An Eagle for an Emperor, A Kestrel for a Knave.


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desmond



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Re: VST's that sound like Korg Trinity? new [Re: The Elf]
      #770701 - 16/09/09 11:04 AM
Plus Omnisphere has got a stack of this kind of stuff...


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Martin WalkerModerator
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Re: VST's that sound like Korg Trinity? new [Re: Pitchfork]
      #770733 - 16/09/09 12:01 PM
I use and love Omnisphere, Korg Legacy Digital, and Absynth, but lately I'm moving over more and more to Camel Audio's Alchemy, which can produce WONDERFUL lush evolving pads


Martin

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MarkOne



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Re: VST's that sound like Korg Trinity? new [Re: Pitchfork]
      #770735 - 16/09/09 12:06 PM
I recently added an old Korg Wavestation SR to my rack, and it has some lovely evolving pads. And since they do this as a plug-in in the legacy digital edition, I would recommend that to you.

From what I've heard of Chameleon, THat sounds amazing... It's certianly up there on my synth want list

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Pitchfork
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Re: VST's that sound like Korg Trinity? new [Re: MarkOne]
      #770855 - 16/09/09 05:26 PM
Alchemy looks amazing!! especially with importing AIFF files and messing them up - how do the analog filters sound?

I did think of Cameleon 5000 but looks like Alchemy supersedes this??


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Stoney



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Re: VST's that sound like Korg Trinity? new [Re: Pitchfork]
      #770859 - 16/09/09 05:39 PM
Check out the demo mate


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Chevytraveller
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Re: VST's that sound like Korg Trinity? new [Re: Pitchfork]
      #770867 - 16/09/09 06:04 PM
Alchemy is the most amazing Plug in instrument I have every used.. every sound is inspirational... makes a Trinity sound like a mouth organ IMHO
Filters are very nice.. the whole plug-in just has that edge of class.. and that's before you even start messing with your own samples..
Ooooh.. I am going off on one.. I'd better go and get a room with it



--------------------
MBP 15", Motu 896, X-Station, LogicX, Reason7, Korg legacy, ACE, Alchemy, Emulator II, E-Synth, Obie-4V, Evolver MEK, Waldorf Pulse and Blofeld, AS Telemark, AS Leipzig-S


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desmond



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Re: VST's that sound like Korg Trinity? new [Re: Pitchfork]
      #770876 - 16/09/09 06:25 PM
Quote Pitchfork:

I did think of Cameleon 5000 but looks like Alchemy supersedes this??




Yes - Alchemy is essentially the successor to Cam5000, and is markedly superior in pretty much *every* way...


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Martin WalkerModerator
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Re: VST's that sound like Korg Trinity? new [Re: Pitchfork]
      #771114 - 17/09/09 04:03 PM
If you want to read my SOS review of Alchemy, it's here:

www.soundonsound.com/sos/apr09/articles/camelaudioalchemy.htm

I was VERY impressed!




Quote Mr Spanky:

How about something like this?

http://www.sampleoidz.co.uk/shop/index.php?_a=viewProd&productId=51




Frankly I'm amazed they get away with releasing a product like that spanky

They openly admit of their Korg Trinity Soundfont that "THIS SAMPLE PACK IS A MUST IT CONTAINS MANY PHAT SOUNDS FROM THIS MODULE."

...and then at the bottom have the nerve to say "ROYALTY FREE :EXCLUSIVE SOUNDS"

Perhaps we should mention his to Korg?


Martin

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Shambolic Charm



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Re: VST's that sound like Korg Trinity? new [Re: Pitchfork]
      #771150 - 17/09/09 06:52 PM
can you copyright a sound? Maybe they are not allowed to explicitly use the name 'Korg' but so what? If they call it 'Kork Trinidy' or something we all know what it means.

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desmond



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Re: VST's that sound like Korg Trinity? new [Re: Shambolic Charm]
      #771155 - 17/09/09 07:25 PM
Because those sounds are based on samples (it's a rompler), and you are re-recording copyright recordings to use in your product. So yes, there are copyright restrictions on doing that.


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Shambolic Charm



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Re: VST's that sound like Korg Trinity? new [Re: Pitchfork]
      #771177 - 17/09/09 09:23 PM
Surely that would mean you couldn't make a music recording with those sounds?

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desmond



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Re: VST's that sound like Korg Trinity? new [Re: Shambolic Charm]
      #771190 - 17/09/09 10:18 PM
No, that use is permitted, and it's also kinda implicit in what a musical instrument does.

Making your own music using an instrument you purchased, and blatantly re-recording the output to make a sample library for sale are two different things.


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hollowsun



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Re: VST's that sound like Korg Trinity? new [Re: Shambolic Charm]
      #771234 - 18/09/09 01:12 AM
Quote Shambolic Charm:

can you copyright a sound?



Maybe not but you can copyright a 'recording' ... and a sample is a 'recording'.

That Soundfont is just SOOOO illegal on so many levels which I won't go into here.

And I will bet that the sounds on offer are not multi-sampled or looped and so are next to useless (I can give you reasons why you don't spend weeks/months multi-sampling and editing and looping and programming samples and then sell them for £5.75 ... discounted from £9.99).

But by all means, buy and get this and prove me wrong. However, I doubt I will be. In situations like this, I have not been proven wrong so far.

I am calling 'cowboy' on this one ... like the many charlatans that sell similar shite on eBay for a fiver!

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Pitchfork
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Re: VST's that sound like Korg Trinity? new [Re: hollowsun]
      #771262 - 18/09/09 08:08 AM
Forget the Trinity banks - I think Alchemy is the one!

I take it this can sound "thin" in order to sit in a mix, instead of massive arpeggiated one-finger band in a box tracks! of some presets


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Martin WalkerModerator
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Re: VST's that sound like Korg Trinity? new [Re: hollowsun]
      #771300 - 18/09/09 10:03 AM
Quote Pitchfork:

Forget the Trinity banks - I think Alchemy is the one!




I agree that Alchemy is the one, but the Trinity banks raise an extremely important point that should be discussed.

Quote hollowsun:

That Soundfont is just SOOOO illegal on so many levels which I won't go into here.

I am calling 'cowboy' on this one ... like the many charlatans that sell similar shite on eBay for a fiver!




Legitimate sample developers are having their sales badly affected by those who churn out copies of other people's copyrighted material.

It's not just folk who sample hardware synths, but companies who sell stuff ripped from albums or even other sample collections and pass it off as their own. There are huge threads on some forums where people have bought such collections and can quickly identify where dozens of the samples originate. They are claimed to be 'license free' for use in your own music, but if anyone did use them and was caught it could be very messy. And yet such libraries continue to sell because so many people judge by how many gigabytes you get for your money.

Incredibly sad for the real developers who spend weeks or months developing their own original material, and then find people won't buy a library unless it's multi-gigabyte and selling for under £30.

I've known various sample developers who have already got out of the industry because they can't afford to pay the mortgage on their houses any more


Martin

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YewTreeMagic


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ZukanModerator
Zukan


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Re: VST's that sound like Korg Trinity? new [Re: Pitchfork]
      #771309 - 18/09/09 10:30 AM
I have to agree with Steve and Martin here.

Personally, I think that Korg should be informed and if it is legal they will ignore it.

However, this is not legal and it would take me pages to go into the implications of why it's not legal and what consequences it has for all the people involved in creating the original soundsets.

Almost every manufacturer that I have designed sounds for, and Steve would attest to this as well, the ownership is kept by the manufacturer and the content is paid for via licencing.
I have been, and still am to a degree, heavily involved with Emu for a number of their product soundsets both in hardware form and software. Right now, in conjunction with DSF, we have converted the entire Emu back catalogue into varying formats. Even though DSF and I created a number of those libraries in their original formats going way back to the 80s we still have to licence the content from Emu as they own the soundsets and formats.

So, unless Korg have dramatically changed their ownership and licencing agreements this product cannot be offered royalty/licence free.

I'll bet my left nut on that and am willing to forego it's use if proven wrong.

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onesecondglance



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Re: VST's that sound like Korg Trinity? new [Re: Zukan]
      #771371 - 18/09/09 12:15 PM
on the same subject - anyone else find it depressing that the most common search strings thrown up by Google when entering "Camel Audio Alchemy" are, in order:

1. torrent
2. rapidshare

3. review
4. presets
5. youtube
6. download
7. serial


... those in bold indicating people trying to rip it off.



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hourglass | random thoughts | doubledotdash!? collective


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vinyl_junkie
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Re: VST's that sound like Korg Trinity? new [Re: hollowsun]
      #771376 - 18/09/09 12:27 PM
Quote hollowsun:

Quote Shambolic Charm:

can you copyright a sound?



Maybe not but you can copyright a 'recording' ... and a sample is a 'recording'.

That Soundfont is just SOOOO illegal on so many levels which I won't go into here.

And I will bet that the sounds on offer are not multi-sampled or looped and so are next to useless (I can give you reasons why you don't spend weeks/months multi-sampling and editing and looping and programming samples and then sell them for £5.75 ... discounted from £9.99).

But by all means, buy and get this and prove me wrong. However, I doubt I will be. In situations like this, I have not been proven wrong so far.

I am calling 'cowboy' on this one ... like the many charlatans that sell similar shite on eBay for a fiver!




I can tell you 100% those sound fonts/sample packs or what ever won't be properly multi sampled and are of the poorest quality out there without even downloading, most of the time sampled with the FX enabled too! ...it's the same junk you find on ebay.
It's the most annoying thing ever..ebay search D-50...about 219083120938 lame sample packs come up and not the item you are looking for


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ZukanModerator
Zukan


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Re: VST's that sound like Korg Trinity? new [Re: onesecondglance]
      #771390 - 18/09/09 12:41 PM
Quote onesecondglance:

on the same subject - anyone else find it depressing that the most common search strings thrown up by Google when entering "Camel Audio Alchemy" are, in order:

1. torrent
2. rapidshare

3. review
4. presets
5. youtube
6. download
7. serial


... those in bold indicating people trying to rip it off.






I have this with a number of my products.

I have even contacted Google, whilst submitting DMCAs, about how they can index and allow torrent and crack sites to reside above ours in search engines.

They never respond.

So long as these sites pay for advertising they will get preferential treatment from search engines.

--------------------
Samplecraze
Stretch That Note


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Pitchfork
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Re: VST's that sound like Korg Trinity? new [Re: Martin Walker]
      #771391 - 18/09/09 12:42 PM
Quote Martin Walker:

Quote Pitchfork:

Forget the Trinity banks - I think Alchemy is the one!




I agree that Alchemy is the one, but the Trinity banks raise an extremely important point that should be discussed.




Yes you are dead right Martin, that should be stopped - I meant my post from above as in my OP, for the sounds/pads - looks like Alchemy is perfect...


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Martin WalkerModerator
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Re: VST's that sound like Korg Trinity? new [Re: Pitchfork]
      #771534 - 18/09/09 07:28 PM
I think this thread has begun to highlight a bigger problem for legitimate sample developers being undercut by those who basically grab their content from others rather than create it themselves, and needs wider publicity.

This issue doesn't just result in lower incomes for the good guys who spend a lot more time genuinely developing new sounds from scratch - in many cases ripped off material is not as declared 'copyright free' to use in your own music, and particularly with loops ripped from well-known albums musicians who buy them could possibly get into trouble if they released music featuring them.

Not nice


Martin

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Shambolic Charm



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Re: VST's that sound like Korg Trinity? new [Re: Pitchfork]
      #771599 - 19/09/09 08:35 AM
does alchemy still do resynthesis in the way cameleon did?

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desmond



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Re: VST's that sound like Korg Trinity? new [Re: Shambolic Charm]
      #771601 - 19/09/09 08:45 AM
Much better. And faster.


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Tímo



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Re: VST's that sound like Korg Trinity? new [Re: desmond]
      #772291 - 22/09/09 02:58 AM
Another interesting topic (I remember Feline's, and I'm sure Zukan might too. ).

Regards sampling and legalities, isn't it fine if sampling anything else other than the dry waveforms? Say, several waveforms are layered, programmed, modulated, and with effects over the top - effectively constituting a "patch", all done within the Trinity or whatever ROMpler synth you're using - wouldn't something like this be ok for commercial sample fodder since it's changed distinctly away from the basic ROM sounds? I thought it's just dry waveforms themselves that are protected?

As for the Trinity sound... I still have my Trinity! And incidently I also mainly use it as a pad/strings machine as that's what I feel it does best, as touched on by another user. The EGs and modulation capabilities are great for it, very evolving, particularly when you have combis involved (several patches playing all at once using the same midi channel) and when you're working the ribbon and joystick for its money. The Trinity also has a very clean and airy quality to it, very separated, in terms of 'space' for sounds.

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Martin WalkerModerator
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Re: VST's that sound like Korg Trinity? new [Re: Tímo]
      #772413 - 22/09/09 11:45 AM
Quote Tímo:

Regards sampling and legalities, isn't it fine if sampling anything else other than the dry waveforms? Say, several waveforms are layered, programmed, modulated, and with effects over the top - effectively constituting a "patch", all done within the Trinity or whatever ROMpler synth you're using - wouldn't something like this be ok for commercial sample fodder since it's changed distinctly away from the basic ROM sounds? I thought it's just dry waveforms themselves that are protected?




If you've created those patches yourself using the raw waveforms and the synth engine then this should indeed be OK.

The big difference here is that this particular product is not being advertised as a set of original patches created using a particular synth, but with the slogans:

"Over 300 mb of legendary dance / techno sounds"

"THIS SAMPLE PACK IS A MUST IT CONTAINS MANY PHAT SOUNDS FROM THIS MODULE"

"ITS JUST LIKE HAVING THE REAL THING"


In other words, it sets out to copy the essence of the Korg Trinity for £5.75, even including its photo on the pack shot. Do you think for that price that those 300MB of sounds are original creations?


Martin

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desmond



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Re: VST's that sound like Korg Trinity? new [Re: Martin Walker]
      #772420 - 22/09/09 11:54 AM
Even sampling *your* patches programmed by you and derived from copyright recordings for a sample library is not ok.

It's essentially the same thing as taking a hit song, using that song, even editing and mashing it up, to create a derivative work, and selling it unlicensed as your own work.

Analog synths are ok, as there are no copyright recordings involved - you cannot copyright analog-generated signals. You can't even (which I think is wrong) copyright your own synth patches, even though they may represent hours of work and skill.

But because romplers are based on recordings, those recordings are copyrightable, and thus you cannot create derivative works on those without a license from the manufacturer.

These terms are always explicitly stated on sample libraries from reputable manufacturers. With musical instruments, like a keyboard, it's a bit more of a grey area as there often isn't a license agreement as such. But the fair, intended use of a musical instrument is to make music, songs and so forth. But using it to generate a sample library from the recordings contained within does not come under the same usage terms, and is prohibited.


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The Pearl Works



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Re: VST's that sound like Korg Trinity? new [Re: desmond]
      #772422 - 22/09/09 12:02 PM
What if I make a sample library from my Petrof upright?

Am I not allowed to sell the library because Petrof own the copyright to the "sound" of the piano which they manufactured?


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desmond



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Re: VST's that sound like Korg Trinity? new [Re: The Pearl Works]
      #772449 - 22/09/09 01:33 PM
No, it's quite clear. There are no sound recordings that you are exploiting, therefore you are free to sample it.

The law is quite clear - you cannot create a derivative work from someone else's "sound recordings", as those sound recordings are copyrightable works, unless the copyright owner grants permission or a license to do so.

A piano contains no sound recordings, therefore no problem. A sampled electronic piano *does* contain sound recordings under copyright, therefore a problem.


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The Pearl Works



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Re: VST's that sound like Korg Trinity? new [Re: desmond]
      #772454 - 22/09/09 01:47 PM
Would a sawtooth waveform inside a Trinity be considered a "sound recording"?


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desmond



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Re: VST's that sound like Korg Trinity? new [Re: The Pearl Works]
      #772466 - 22/09/09 02:33 PM
If it's a sound recording, then in theory, yes. If it's synthetically generated by synth electronics, then no.

However, you'd have to be able to prove in court that an infringement of that particular sample was being done, and in the case of a raw simple waveform, that's impractically difficult to do - and if that was all that was being infringed, a manufacturer is unlikely to pursue such an action.

It's the more recognisable stuff that's easier to prove - like when the D-50 came out, then stuff people found exciting was the samples like DigitalNativeDance and stuff. Simple waveforms are easy to get, but those specific unique samples are hard, and consequently they are more eminently sample-able - and easier to prove an infringement of.

BTW I'm not a lawyer or anything, but this is my common understanding of this stuff. I'm not coming at it from the legal side, but from the soundware development side.


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Tímo



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Re: VST's that sound like Korg Trinity? new [Re: Martin Walker]
      #772489 - 22/09/09 04:22 PM
Quote Martin Walker:

Quote Tímo:

Regards sampling and legalities, isn't it fine if sampling anything else other than the dry waveforms? Say, several waveforms are layered, programmed, modulated, and with effects over the top - effectively constituting a "patch", all done within the Trinity or whatever ROMpler synth you're using - wouldn't something like this be ok for commercial sample fodder since it's changed distinctly away from the basic ROM sounds? I thought it's just dry waveforms themselves that are protected?




If you've created those patches yourself using the raw waveforms and the synth engine then this should indeed be OK.

The big difference here is that this particular product is not being advertised as a set of original patches created using a particular synth, but with the slogans:

"Over 300 mb of legendary dance / techno sounds"

"THIS SAMPLE PACK IS A MUST IT CONTAINS MANY PHAT SOUNDS FROM THIS MODULE"

"ITS JUST LIKE HAVING THE REAL THING"


In other words, it sets out to copy the essence of the Korg Trinity for £5.75, even including its photo on the pack shot. Do you think for that price that those 300MB of sounds are original creations?


Martin




I deplore scammers and pirate leeches as much as the rest of them, but I don't see anything incriminating from the description alone. There's nowhere it states that it samples the dry, raw waveforms of the Trinity.

It could be audio samples of a bunch of programmed, layered, modulated patches or the like, which I don't think would be copyrightable due to being 'performances', turning one thing (the ROM) into something sounding completely different from the individual raw waveforms themselves? In which case yes, a sampled collection of patches could easily be 300mb (if attack and releases are captured, along with evolving modulated filtering, amp ADSRs, effects, etc.), yes, the patches could be made "phat" prior to sampling via use of onboard processing (EQ, effects, etc.), and yes it would still sound like a Trinity because it was achieved using one.

(Incidently, the Trinity was never one for dance sounds. Not sure where anyone could make up 300mb worth of dance sounds from it!)

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desmond



Joined: 10/01/06
Posts: 9168
Re: VST's that sound like Korg Trinity? new [Re: Tímo]
      #772496 - 22/09/09 04:49 PM
Quote Tímo:

It could be audio samples of a bunch of programmed, layered, modulated patches or the like, which I don't think would be copyrightable due to being 'performances', turning one thing (the ROM) into something sounding completely different from the individual raw waveforms themselves?




The patches aren't, but as those samples are based on copyright recordings, then yes, the sound recording copyright still applies. Just as if I used a James Brown sample but filtered and envleoped and EQ'd it - it's still using someone elses recording and thus a breach of copyright.

Once again - it doesn't matter what you do to the sounds, the fact that those recordings (ROM samples) are being used to create a new commercial library without a licence is a no-no.

Of course, if the sounds really are totally unrecognisable, then it's going to be difficult to prove in a court, but that's a technicality.

Any synths which use recordings to create their sounds cannot legally be used to create a sample library unless you have explicit permission and/or a licence to do so.


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Amusikaido



Joined: 01/09/04
Posts: 247
Loc: Brighton area
Re: VST's that sound like Korg Trinity? new [Re: desmond]
      #772503 - 22/09/09 05:02 PM
Spectrasonics has an interesting FAQ about this as part of their Omnisphere docs.

Check the section entitled LEGAL/SAMPLING FAQs a fair way down the page at http://www.spectrasonics.net/instruments/omnisphere_faq.php - it covers a lot of ground being discussed here.

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Tímo



Joined: 25/09/02
Posts: 1828
Loc: Derby, England
Re: VST's that sound like Korg Trinity? new [Re: Amusikaido]
      #772505 - 22/09/09 05:29 PM
Got ya, so it's termed a "derivative", regardless of the amount of modulation, layering and processing used.

That's cleared things up.

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Neil C
active member


Joined: 01/04/03
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Re: VST's that sound like Korg Trinity? new [Re: Martin Walker]
      #772506 - 22/09/09 05:33 PM
Quote Shambolic Charm:

If they call it 'Kork Trinidy' or something we all know what it means.




The site name ends with a 'Z'. Kind of sets out the stall/pushes the package across the dingy pub table really.


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Tímo



Joined: 25/09/02
Posts: 1828
Loc: Derby, England
Re: VST's that sound like Korg Trinity? new [Re: Tímo]
      #772511 - 22/09/09 05:53 PM
Actually, how does this work then?

http://www.lo-res.com/nicebeats/Akai/3115A_synthline.htm



Nicebeats/Nicebytes Synthline Korg Trinity - AKAI format

Not only does it sample Trinity patches, it looks like it sampled the raw waveforms too:

Quote Korg Trinity Akai Sample CD - Nicebeats Synthline #3115:

These are not loops – these are the raw sounds taken from each model, meticulously multisampled and mapped out into Akai format at 16 bits, 44.1khz.




Looks like Nicebeats made sample CDs of the JD990, JV2080, QS6, SY85, Audity 2000, XP80, D70, 01/W, Proteus, Orbit - all ROMplers - along with other virtual analogues.

And the rest.... http://www.lo-res.com/nicebeats/

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desmond



Joined: 10/01/06
Posts: 9168
Re: VST's that sound like Korg Trinity? new [Re: Tímo]
      #772517 - 22/09/09 06:15 PM
just because they did it, doesn't necessarily mean they were allowed to.

FWIW, a lot of Roland ROM samples, including the V-Drum stuff and much of the D-50/JV-era content actually belongs to Spectrasonics, and is licensed to Roland.

Note that there are some grey areas, for example, Roland's much-sampled drum machines. Technically, TR-808's are analog synthesisers, but the TR-909 also contains samples, and obviously the next generation boxes (TR-707, etc) were all samples - Roland kinda of missed the boat on protecting their content, and as a result those sounds have effectively passed into the public domain (one of the key tenets of copyright is that if you don't actively protect your work, you can lose the ability to exert your exclusive right to copy.)

The fact that people get away with this kind of thing though is more down to what the companies decide to pursue, not whether you are technically allowed to do it or not.


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hollowsun



Joined: 20/01/05
Posts: 5582
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Re: VST's that sound like Korg Trinity? new [Re: desmond]
      #772539 - 22/09/09 07:39 PM
The reason some of the older sample based ROMpler stuff (D50, M1, etc.) is almost public domain is because of the technology of the time.

When the D50 came out in 1987, the only way to sample it was on a hardware sampler such as a £2,500 Akai or Emu (ideally with £1,500 of RAM expansion!!) and the only currency for distributing them was floppy disks sent by snail mail so it wasn't really a threat to their sales and they weren't too concerned. Even in the early days of the internet, no-one was going to spend hours on 14k dial-up at 10p a minute up/downloading samples so it still wasn't really a threat to them.

Nowadays, of course, you can extensively multi-sample a Fantom or Motif, whatever, and have it available for millions to download in minutes for free and play in their £300 (or free) software sampler .... and THAT is a MASSIVE threat to their which is why manufacturers are far more protective these days. And that old stuff from the 80s is now out there, spawned probably from a handful of S1000 floppies made 20 years ago!

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hollowsun



Joined: 20/01/05
Posts: 5582
Loc: Cowbridge, South Wales
Re: VST's that sound like Korg Trinity? new [Re: Pitchfork]
      #772550 - 22/09/09 08:32 PM
Desmond is spot on with his assessment...

A 'sample' is a recording of a sound. Someone might not own (or need to own) the copyright of the sound (if there is one) but they own the copyright on the 'recording'.

That is why you can sample an analogue synth or a piano or a guitar freely but you cannot sample a ROMpler or a sample library or a sample based drum machine, whatever.

So you can sample a real piano but you can't sample a digital piano. And if you sample a real piano, you (technically) hold the copyright on those samples/recordings and if someone else nicks them and re-distributes them (even if they modify them), you can wallop them. But if you sample a Clavinova, Yamaha can wallop you ... but they can't if you sample their C7 acoustic grand!

Technically speaking, you can sample the kick and snare of a TR909 (analogue) but you can't sample its toms, hi-hat and cymbals (samples).

But you can freely sample an entire TR808 (all analogue) and you can sell them or give them away but, technically, you cannot call them "Roland TR808" because that is exploitation of a registered trade name which can also be copyrighted and Roland can have your arse and have your work withdrawn if you did make a "Definitive Roland TR808" soundset ... but you could call it "Ultimate Dance Beatbox" or somesuch without any problems.

You may remember a little upset a while back when all Fender Rhodes library suddenly disappeared and returned with a new name ("Classic EP", whatever). This is because someone bought the Rhodes trademark and objected to the name being used on sampled products from the likes of Scarbee, etc., even though it is perfectly legal to sample the sound!

But there are grey areas... sample based products long discontinued where the manufacturer no longer exists and the samples/recordings are of no commercial interest to the original copyright holders (if they still exist), for example, are fair game. There's a chance that someone might come out of nowhere and say "Oi! That's my copyright - cease and desist" but it's unlikely (and as I have experienced, some can actually be grateful for resurrecting some of their lost 'children' .. so to speak).

However, others are much stricter. Roland, for example, forbid the sampling of their old drum machines because they still hold copyright and they may want to use them in a new product of theirs. Which is fair enough. So sampling and re-distributing their TR707 is a no-no. But Roger Linn's probably not bothered about his old LM1 and 2 being sampled (even though, technically, he could object and be within his rights to). But even if he doesn't object to those old 8-bit drum sounds being sampled, he MIGHT object to his tradename being used. Or might not... depends if he thinks it benefits him and his current products - which it might. More specifically, it depends whether the usage tarnishes his name/professional reputation and that is a big concern for trademark owners...

These CDs flogged on eBay that the seller advises is a 'must-have' are a case in point.

Yeah! Right! A single sample from each sound, badly recorded, badly looped (if at all) and sounding like utter shite and totally unusable. That (potentially) tarnishes the professional reputation of the original manufacturers/copyright holders and the seller can be hammered on so many levels (if eBay gave a sh!t about copyright that is!).

There's also something called "Unfair Competition".

For example, I get a MiniMoog Voyager in and I multi-sample its presets extensively, one sample for very note - maybe even multi-velocity samples for every note - using long samples that breathe and evolve. I spend time carefully programming everything so that it is, to all intents and purposes, indistinguishable from the original Voyager and I put that on sale for $50. A bargain. All the presets from a Voyager for 50 bucks. Wow!

Even though it is perfectly legal to sample an analogue synth such as the Voyager, Moog could rightly claim "unfair competition" in a court of law and would probably win because their £1,200 products' sales are quite likely to be affected by my $50 soundset. They could also have a claim that the settings used for the various presets are (effectively) their copyright ... which would probably be supported.

However...

I could sample the presets from a Prophet 5 without any real danger of litigation.

Now, I could get a Voyager in and sample sounds I create myself on the Moog and also avoid litigation. But if I 'exploit' the Moog trademark to add kudos to my soundset (i.e. "Ultimate Moog Voyager") to enhance my sales, Moog could get stroppy ... and rightly so - "unfair competition" again. But I could sell it as "Ultimate Analogue" without risk ... whilst running the risk of not selling any because the 'Moog' name is not exploited to give the library credibility ... it's just a.n.other analogue synth lib and there are loads of those out there - it would be the 'Moog Voyager' tag that would make it desirable.

Similarly Doepfer, whoever. Even though their modular systems have no presets (obviously), Doepfer would be within their rights if I released a 3GB DVD of Doepfer sounds I created from scratch for $150 called "Definitive Doepfer" on the same grounds - exploiting their trademark/brandname to add kudos to my product and enhance my sales and potentially troubling theirs ... "unfair competition". But I could release it if I called it "Definitive Modular".

It's a bit of a minefield but to be honest, a lot of this is just common sense. I just wouldn't make a comprehensive library of Voyager sounds on moral grounds (even though I could probably make a pot of money) because Moog (and Doepfer, whoever) deserve respect and I wouldn't want to do anything that might jeopardise their sales. I could have sampled the crap out of a DSI 'Evolver' a while back and released it as a product but that would be unfair to Dave Smith.

On the other hand, I would have no moral turpitude sampling the crap out of a Prophet 5 extensively.

Do you see what I mean?

Basically...

You can sample a Roland Jupiter 8 freely and without restriction but if you are going to sell it or give it away, whatever, you cannot use Roland's trademarks

You CANNOT sample a Roland Fantom because the sounds utilise copyrighted 'recordings'. Well... technically you can't - you certainly can't sell it carrying Roland's trademarks

However, you could combine and splice and merge samples from a Jupiter 8 with your own programs from, say, a Korg Trinity or whatever to create something totally new and that would be ok - but not if you tried to sell it using any of the manufacturers' trademarks. It is unlikely that such a commercial soundset would fall foul of the original samples' copyright holder(s) (although it could in theory) because they're on the lookout for more blatant contraventions.

If all this seems confusing and draconian when sampling ROMplers, think of it another way...

You wouldn't buy a product that had sampled, say, the Garritan Orchestra sample library and which was called 'Ultimate Garritan'. You would immediately think "Wow - what a f'cking ripoff ... selling someone else's samples? That's terrible" ... but it's the same for ROMplers - selling someone else's samples!

Of course, there is a way around this ...

Get permission!

At the end of the day, apart from an understanding of copyright law (essential in this business), a moral compass is also required. Sadly, some peoples' are pointing south!

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Edited by hollowsun (22/09/09 08:34 PM)


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desmond



Joined: 10/01/06
Posts: 9168
Re: VST's that sound like Korg Trinity? new [Re: hollowsun]
      #772567 - 22/09/09 09:28 PM
Thanks for the detailed and accurate post. Also, if others are still unclear on this, search out Eric Persing's forum posts of various forums about this - he explains this stuff very clearly as well. And he, like our esteemed Hollowsun here, has extensive experience as a sample soundware developer.

> to be honest, a lot of this is just common sense

I think so. But, as someone once said, common sense isn't very common...

To be honest, I largely assume all sample libraries are crap unless they come from a developer I know/trust and who's skills and attitudes are exemplory, or am proved otherwise by the quality of the product.

These are the Scarbee's, the Spectrasonics, the Illio's, and many more (won't namecheck them here).

Sampling (ie developing multisampled playable instruments) is something, a bit like synth programming, that is easy to do badly, and really hard to do well, and often difficult to evaluate pre-sale.

If I could have a quid for every patch I've loaded up where the mod wheel, aftertouch, velocity, key scaling etc do nothing at all and are left unrouted, I'd be... well, significantly better off.

Those cheap products on ebay are largely all ripped off, or are crap and done by people with the desire to make some cash, not to make and market a good product. And there are many of us, including many on this forum I'm sure, who have had their work ripped off and copied and sold by someone else for profit and frankly feel rather peed off about the whole thing. These people have devalued the whole soundware concept to a point where it's really really hard to invest the time into making a good product because you just can't get much of a return on it.

But hey - you need to rise above the charlatans, because there *are* people out there who will appreciate it...


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Tímo



Joined: 25/09/02
Posts: 1828
Loc: Derby, England
Re: VST's that sound like Korg Trinity? new [Re: desmond]
      #772607 - 23/09/09 01:01 AM
Thanks for the extended elaborations. I was basically just wondering how the hell it, and the other ROMpler sample sets Nicebytes ran, so blatantly ever managed to get in the commercial sector without being reprimanded. They would've stood to piss off quite a few of the large manufacturers.

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TBTS



Joined: 08/01/09
Posts: 551
Loc: London
Re: VST's that sound like Korg Trinity? new [Re: Pitchfork]
      #772608 - 23/09/09 01:38 AM
ive always liked the emu audity 2000 for programming intricate evolving pads.....

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The Pearl Works



Joined: 15/09/05
Posts: 307
Loc: North West
Re: VST's that sound like Korg Trinity? new [Re: TBTS]
      #772659 - 23/09/09 08:56 AM
Quote TBTS:

ive always liked the emu audity 2000 for programming intricate evolving pads.....




+1


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hollowsun



Joined: 20/01/05
Posts: 5582
Loc: Cowbridge, South Wales
Re: VST's that sound like Korg Trinity? new [Re: desmond]
      #772762 - 23/09/09 01:23 PM
Quote desmond:

Sampling (ie developing multisampled playable instruments) is something, a bit like synth programming, that is easy to do badly



The artist Degas once said:

"Painting is easy when you don't know how... but very difficult if you do'!!

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GLENN



Joined: 24/10/04
Posts: 326
Loc: Manchester
Re: VST's that sound like Korg Trinity? new [Re: hollowsun]
      #772880 - 23/09/09 08:00 PM
Hi I know you mention vst's but if you want the Trinity why not look at buying one or the Triton.
Hardware does have it's charms.
The Radius is nice too.


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