Hi all, i'm at a decision making point and need some informed opinion. I am currently running Logic, while it is great at most things, it WILL NOT work as i want it to in terms of midi programming, so i must change, i have to, there are many different DAW's out there which DO suit me, but Pro Tools 8 LE has been at the back of my mind for a while, i actually like the idea of dedicated hardware for software, doesn't harm Apple : ) however, i have not used it much and cannot comment on the quality, So, the question is, is there anyone out there that has used the 003 systems and RME or Apogee based systems that could tell me if the Digidesign stuff (converters/preamps etc) are up there with the same quailty as those others? Thanks in advance for any help...

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The most punk thing you can do is stop listening to punk....

Hi - If Logic does not do MIDI as you need then I can't see Pro tools doing it either as protools has the least advanced MIDI spec of any of all the DAWs?!!

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Mac Pro, Logic Pro, lots of software and 17 hard drives!

ditto really.... AFAIK There's nothing you can do in any other DAW for midi that you cannot do in logic... indeed, there's stuff you can do in logic that you cannot do in any other DAW>...


so please explain what you mean... maybe a way to do it can be pointed out to you....

protools Midi is positively prehistorically clunky by comparison

Ditto the comments of the guys above.

But as to hardware - I wouldn't swap the mic pre's in my RME Fireface for the ones in my MBox 2. The RME is livelier and more crisp.

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An Eagle for an Emperor, A Kestrel for a Knave.

I have to ask what do you want Logic to do in regards to MIDI?

I'm not on here for a natter, i do not want to go into why, even the logic pro help forum were no help, because, TRUST ME! Logic has an insurmountable midi input issue with which i cannot work! End of story. This was not my question, i wish i hadn't mentioned it, just want to know, FROM PEOPLE THAT ACTUALLY KNOW! If there is a major quality difference betweem the likes of Apogee/RME converters and pre's, vs the Digi 003 series. Thankyou...

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The most punk thing you can do is stop listening to punk....

If your question is only about converters then the DAW choice will have no effect unless you need to use proprietary software like PT that requires generic (M-Audio,Digidesign) hardware to run it on.

Additionally, your list only contains makes and not models for the converters. BUT, if I had to stick my neck out then the only comment I would make is that the 003 features at the bottom of the list assuming you are going for like for like in terms of feature sets.

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Samplecraze
Stretch That Note

I'd say that the 003 converters would stuggle to compete with anything RME or Apogee have to offer. To some extent it's a subjective thing, but there are certain aspects which you can look at objectively... I may be wrong, but I'm pretty sure, for example, that any apogee converter would have significantly greater dynamic range, lower total harmonic distortion and noise, a more stable clock with lower jitter etc.

From a subjective viewpoint, I don't much like the preamps in the 003, but I'm not sure how much of that is due to them running through the wooly converters that follow them.

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BLOG - http://www.thefoldstudios.com

Is this the time to mention PT LE's lack of Automatic Delay Compensation.

Makes it a dead duck for me.

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An Eagle for an Emperor, A Kestrel for a Knave.

Quote Zukan:

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If your question is only about converters then the DAW choice will have no effect unless you need to use proprietary software like PT that requires generic (M-Audio,Digidesign) hardware to run it on.

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No! Really? i didn't realise!!!! sorry for the sarcasm, actually i'm not, i think it's obvious from my post, that is WHY i am asking about the 003!!

Quote :

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may be wrong, but I'm pretty sure, for example, that any apogee converter would have significantly greater dynamic range, lower total harmonic distortion and noise, a more stable clock with lower jitter etc.

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How sure? Enough for me to blow £1500 on? This is getting me nowhere...

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The most punk thing you can do is stop listening to punk....

I don't know but i'd have a look in seeing about that sand in your vagina as it seems to be iritating you.

Quote deadman:

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Quote The Fold Studios:

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I may be wrong, but I'm pretty sure, for example, that any apogee converter would have significantly greater dynamic range, lower total harmonic distortion and noise, a more stable clock with lower jitter etc.

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How sure? Enough for me to blow £1500 on? This is getting me nowhere...

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Easy Tiger. The kind of specs I was talking about shouldn't be too hard to find on the internet. I'm not saying you should just splash out your cash on whatever has the best specs, but that's what's quantifiable, everything else is opinion and you may have to form your own by testing out the gear you mentioned. I did give you my opinion about the 003 pres but like I said, I've only heard the 003 pres through the 003 converters and I've only heard RME fireface pres through their internal converters. If you were thinking about, for example and apogee ad16, you would probably be looking at stand alone preamps infront of it, and that opens up a whole new can of worms. I think everyone on here is doing there best to be helpful.

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BLOG - http://www.thefoldstudios.com

Edited by Hugh Robjohns (23/02/10 12:14 PM)

I personally wouldn't encourage the guy. He's clearly got issues. For someone so cocksure it's surprising he doesn't know the answer already.

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http://www.loverslanestudios.co.uk

Agreed. His response to Zukan has lost any help he's getting from me.

Getting angry and sarcastic is not the way to ask for help.

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An Eagle for an Emperor, A Kestrel for a Knave.

Don't get upset on the internet, go to a shop that has both, take some headphones, reference material, listen to both converters. Decide which you prefer, buy that one.

Either one can be used to make great records.

DAW workflow and compatability with projects would be my primary choice, that being said, I'd prefer apogee converters over stock digi ones anyday.

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Squarehead Jam Jar Facebook Jam Jar

Quote deadman:

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TRUST ME! Logic has an insurmountable midi input issue with which i cannot work! End of story.

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I'm just dying to know what that issue is, for some reason...?

I would choose Apogee too, but you need to audition and A/B the systems yourself.

Quote Grantsos:

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Quote deadman:

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TRUST ME! Logic has an insurmountable midi input issue with which i cannot work! End of story.

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I'm just dying to know what that issue is, for some reason...?

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+1

Ok i'm sorry i got narky, really, i've just really had it with people that reply to a question with a completely irrelevant answer, i wanted to know what differences between the hardware were, simply in terms of sound quality, i've done my research and know the feature sets etc... i had the same thing when trying to solve the Logic issue i was having time and time again, rather than answer the question, i'd get "why would you want to do that anyway?" THAT'S ANNOYING!!! Sorry but i see it no better than spamming or thread hijacking. If you really must know, the problem i have with logic is with midi programming, i feel i have tried to explain this a thousand times, i write drum tracks using Superior 2, the drum software is irrelevant but hey, i have used drum machines for nigh on 20 years, and for the last 14 of those, MPC's, now, i want to write my drum tracks in the same way as i've always done, in real time, looping small sections, or patterns, i will for instance, loop two bars, tap out a groove, and while still running, maybe hit a pad again in the same spot to adjust the velocity, to get the feel right, on every drum machine, and every DAW i've used, this will replace the old note with the new one, this doesn't happen in Logic, it will either make a new take, or stack it up over the old one, so you lose the whole lot or end up with two simultaneous phasing hits, how am i supposed to get the feel like that?!?! There is NOTHING you can do to change it, i have been moaning to them about it since Logic 8 came out, and through all the updates AND now Logic 9, still the same ridiculous problem. You cannot program without stopping, deleting duplicate notes or adjusting velocities manually, all of which means reverting to the mouse, and most of all stopping!!! That really sucks and is mind bogglingly frustrating! I'm done with logic, as much as love it for everything else. I want to get rid of my MPC, they are great to but not without they're own weird issues like going out of time in song mode... Don't EVEN get me started on that! i want to be able to do EVERYTHING in one place, people have suggested i buy a drum machine plug-in, to use in Logic, but why the hell should i? I bought Logic, it has a sequencer, it just happens to suck donkey balls when it comes to drum programming!!!!
So, i want to shove there software right up their arse and start afresh with something that will work for me, Ableton i know works the way i want without having to set it up or do anything, it just works exactly as you would expect of a sequencer, but i don't like the layout so am looking at alternatives, Pro Tools always gets a good word or two but there are like no actual in depth reviews that i can find that give me the info i need, i really would buy it on the word of a trusted review, but couldn't find one so i came here...

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The most punk thing you can do is stop listening to punk....

I don't think Pro Tools will do this either, although it's quite difficult to understand your problem. You need to set your sequencer to delete previous midi notes i suppose, problem with this is that you will delete everything else that you don't play in.

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Squarehead Jam Jar Facebook Jam Jar

Exactly If your drum machine did that, how long before you catapulted it into orbit?

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The most punk thing you can do is stop listening to punk....

Now, back to my question???

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The most punk thing you can do is stop listening to punk....

Buy a drum machine as neither logic nor pro tools will help you,

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Squarehead Jam Jar Facebook Jam Jar

Quote deadman:

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Now, back to my question???

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I don't have any experience with the 003 so I can't help in that regard, but I recently did extensive audio interface comparison shopping myself, and I went with the Apogee Ensemble. After using it for the past month, my opinion is that the sound lives up to every bit of it's specs. But like others already mentioned, if you don't trust the specs, your only other option is to listen to the different models yourself. What good does the completely subjective opinion of strangers do you? We all have unique levels of high frequency hearing loss so they will sound a little different to all of us!

On a side note, I also switched to Logic 9 at the same time as purchasing the Ensemble. Prior to that I had used Ableton Live Suite for a few years. My opinion is that Ableton has the best user interface of any sequencer in terms of ease of use and workflow. However, Logic's synths, instruments, and plugins sound much better than Ableton's, and the differences in the user interface and workflow in Logic are not that big of a deal to me.

However, given what you are trying to accomplish with looping, I would guess that if you can't do it the way you want in Ableton, you probably won't be able to it in any sequencer without using some kind of plugin. Midi definitely has some weaknesses--but that's what we've got to work with for now. You probably will have to use something created specifically for groove creation to get the behavior you want.

Depending on how important this is to you and how much work you are willing to put into it, the new Max for (Ableton) Live looks like it can do some pretty powerful things as far as instrument and effect programming. It's sort of a drag-n-drop musical programming environment. But it isn't included with the Live Suite and it's pretty expensive for an add-on unless you are into some serious sound design or custom effects.

Good luck with your quest!

Hi Deadman

I run Logic, Cubase and PTLE on a MacPro.

I have a Digidesign 003R and the Apogee Rosetta 800/Symphony system, I also at one time ran the Apogee Ensemble and have owned an Mbox 2 Pro.

If your question is simply about AD/DA and preamp quality between these units then I'd say it has already been said. The quality of AD/DA conversion is to my ears much better on the Apogee (unsurprisingly) run a close second by the RME interfaces I have used. The Digidesign converters live pretty much in the mid range quality-wise for me.

In terms of preamps - my ears would put RME first above the Ensemble which felt pretty similar in this respect to the 003R.

To me RME also deserve a special mention in terms of build quality - although the Rosetta's are a different animal, I found the build quality of the Ensemble disappointing.

Have you considered clocking the 003R from an external source (say, a higher quality interface) and then connecting an RME or Apogee via ADAT? Limitation is that SMUX is not available on the 003R therefore you are limited to 48kHz or below in terms of sample frequency. Apogee for instance provide instructions as to how to do this on their site.

Incidentally - I understand your frustration.

Loopy

Quote markvr4:

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However, given what you are trying to accomplish with looping, I would guess that if you can't do it the way you want in Ableton, you probably won't be able to it in any sequencer without using some kind of plugin.

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Yet another person who can't or wont read!

Quote Urthlupe:

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Hi Deadman

I run Logic, Cubase and PTLE on a MacPro.

I have a Digidesign 003R and the Apogee Rosetta 800/Symphony system, I also at one time ran the Apogee Ensemble and have owned an Mbox 2 Pro.

If your question is simply about AD/DA and preamp quality between these units then I'd say it has already been said. The quality of AD/DA conversion is to my ears much better on the Apogee (unsurprisingly) run a close second by the RME interfaces I have used. The Digidesign converters live pretty much in the mid range quality-wise for me.

In terms of preamps - my ears would put RME first above the Ensemble which felt pretty similar in this respect to the 003R.

To me RME also deserve a special mention in terms of build quality - although the Rosetta's are a different animal, I found the build quality of the Ensemble disappointing.

Have you considered clocking the 003R from an external source (say, a higher quality interface) and then connecting an RME or Apogee via ADAT? Limitation is that SMUX is not available on the 003R therefore you are limited to 48kHz or below in terms of sample frequency. Apogee for instance provide instructions as to how to do this on their site.

Incidentally - I understand your frustration.

Loopy

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And FINALLY someone who can Thankyou..

I will keep trying with Ableton, but have yet to try Digital Performer which definately looks nicer, but looks aren't everything, so the missus says As for the hardware, think i'm starting to get the picture, but surely the 003 can't be any worse than the semi-permanantly loaned MOTU 828 mk2 i'm currently using?

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The most punk thing you can do is stop listening to punk....

Quote deadman:

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Quote markvr4:

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However, given what you are trying to accomplish with looping, I would guess that if you can't do it the way you want in Ableton, you probably won't be able to it in any sequencer without using some kind of plugin.

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Yet another person who can't or wont read!

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Yet another person who can't or wont read!

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Yet another ungracious comment from someone whom everyone is trying to help. You seem to have been friendly to Urthlupe simpley because he said he understands your frustration. If you bothered to read the first paragraph of Markvr4's comment you'll notice it was a direct answer to your question. Just because he happened to elaborate by giving you some informaiton he felt may have helped you, you react by burning out this rather short fuse of yours. perhaps you've had a few too many late nights on logic recently.

I don't know why I'm even bothering to reply really. Johnny h is on the money. I just find lack of respect such an odious characteristic.

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BLOG - http://www.thefoldstudios.com

+1

A forum is a place for discussion. It is not anyone’s ‘service-level-guaranteed’ personal help line. Ask for help, but don’t *demand* it.

A forum is not a place to demand personalised, targeted answers to your specific problem. Ask, by all means, but be gracious. People are giving their time, knowledge and skills for free. Accept that respondents might not always give you the answer you want to hear. Some will misunderstand – provide guidance. Some will suggest alternatives – be considerate of such suggestions. Others will simply take the chance to answer (or ask) a different question – be accepting.

If the answers here aren’t to your liking, then go elsewhere. I think you’ll find some of those other places far less forgiving.

I suggest a couple of apologies are in order, then maybe you’ll get more advice, If not, then I, for one, hope that everyone considers this thread dead.

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An Eagle for an Emperor, A Kestrel for a Knave.

I asked a simple question and got bollox replies, the Ableton quote was the OPPOSITE of what i said which proved he didn't even read it, so WHY POST!!!!???? i agreed with the other guy and thanked him because HE'S IS THE ONLY PERSON WHO HAS REPLIED WITH THE EXPERIENCED OPINION I ASKED FOR!!! the ONLY one! out of all the posts, it's YOUR unhelpful timewasting crap that has ruined this thread, it was not me, get a life and stop replying to peoples questions when you have NO ANSWERS for them!! loser!

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The most punk thing you can do is stop listening to punk....

What fun. A troll.

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madtheory creations
Synths and pianos for Kontakt

Quote The Elf:

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+1

A forum is a place for discussion. It is not anyone’s ‘service-level-guaranteed’ personal help line. Ask for help, but don’t *demand* it.

A forum is not a place to demand personalised, targeted answers to your specific problem. Ask, by all means, but be gracious. People are giving their time, knowledge and skills for free. Accept that respondents might not always give you the answer you want to hear. Some will misunderstand – provide guidance. Some will suggest alternatives – be considerate of such suggestions. Others will simply take the chance to answer (or ask) a different question – be accepting.

If the answers here aren’t to your liking, then go elsewhere. I think you’ll find some of those other places far less forgiving.

I suggest a couple of apologies are in order, then maybe you’ll get more advice, If not, then I, for one, hope that everyone considers this thread dead.

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No-one MAKES you respond to a thread mate, or are you controlled completely by your desperate need to communicate even if it's irrelevant??? appologise? me? are you joking? Get a life and go answer some questions you know the answer to, if there are any.

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The most punk thing you can do is stop listening to punk....

Quote deadman:

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I asked a simple question and got bollox replies, the Ableton quote was the OPPOSITE of what i said which proved he didn't even read it, so WHY POST!!!!???? i agreed with the other guy and thanked him because HE'S IS THE ONLY PERSON WHO HAS REPLIED WITH THE EXPERIENCED OPINION I ASKED FOR!!! the ONLY one! out of all the posts, it's YOUR unhelpful timewasting crap that has ruined this thread, it was not me, get a life and stop replying to peoples questions when you have NO ANSWERS for them!! loser!

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I just scanned all the caps in this post so I couldn't be bothered to read it. Its surely just a sad angry-man whinge.

Nobody wants to help people with no manners. Give your caps lock a rest, see a therapist and work through your anger problems. Come back when you've learnt some rudimentary social skills.

or not..... indeed, bye bye.....

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if you don't know who i am, i aint gonna tell you.

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Samplecraze
Stretch That Note

Overall what I've seen from PT in terms of audio interface and converters has been lower quality than similarly priced units from other companies. I am not sure exactly in your specific scenario but I am willing to bet that the RME/Apogee would be better quality that the 03.

If you don't like the midi in Logic - why not give Digital Performer a try? I found that to be the most robust app for midi out there. With their crossgrade package you'd only spend $350 I think.

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www.descentintomadness.com

I must remember this conversational approach next time I'm at a dinner party.

I'm sure it will work just as well in real life as it obviously does on the interwebs...

The guy does have a point about Logic though - I think there are some great things it could do to improve parts of the sequencer, especially for this style of programming.

Unfortunately, of late, everything seems very audio-focused...

Quote deadman:

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Quote The Elf:

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+1

A forum is a place for discussion. It is not anyone’s ‘service-level-guaranteed’ personal help line. Ask for help, but don’t *demand* it.

A forum is not a place to demand personalised, targeted answers to your specific problem. Ask, by all means, but be gracious. People are giving their time, knowledge and skills for free. Accept that respondents might not always give you the answer you want to hear. Some will misunderstand – provide guidance. Some will suggest alternatives – be considerate of such suggestions. Others will simply take the chance to answer (or ask) a different question – be accepting.

If the answers here aren’t to your liking, then go elsewhere. I think you’ll find some of those other places far less forgiving.

I suggest a couple of apologies are in order, then maybe you’ll get more advice, If not, then I, for one, hope that everyone considers this thread dead.

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No-one MAKES you respond to a thread mate, or are you controlled completely by your desperate need to communicate even if it's irrelevant??? appologise? me? are you joking? Get a life and go answer some questions you know the answer to, if there are any.

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Quote deadman:

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I asked a simple question and got bollox replies, the Ableton quote was the OPPOSITE of what i said which proved he didn't even read it, so WHY POST!!!!???? i agreed with the other guy and thanked him because HE'S IS THE ONLY PERSON WHO HAS REPLIED WITH THE EXPERIENCED OPINION I ASKED FOR!!! the ONLY one! out of all the posts, it's YOUR unhelpful timewasting crap that has ruined this thread, it was not me, get a life and stop replying to peoples questions when you have NO ANSWERS for them!! loser!

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Wow ! Deadman, you really seem to get along well with people. What line of work are you in? You seem like one of those people who makes sure all your co-workers and superiors KNOW that YOU’RE in charge LOL

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Gear list: If you can't find it, grind it

I'm tempted to lock this now that the OP has, as it were, passed on. But does anyone know if any sequencer will actually solve the original question? I'm not at all convinced PT is the answer either. There may not be one?

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Dynamite with a laser beam...

Quote Steve Hill:

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I'm tempted to lock this now that the OP has, as it were, passed on. But does anyone know if any sequencer will actually solve the original question? I'm not at all convinced PT is the answer either. There may not be one?

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I was thinking about this on my way to work and I think only a hardware sequencer would be able to do what the OP is looking for, but my exeprience of DAWs is limited. I thought of Numerology, but I don't think that would do what he wants.

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http://soundcloud.com/richie-royale
http://www.mixcrate.com/richieroyale

Quote Steve Hill:

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I'm tempted to lock this now that the OP has, as it were, passed on. But does anyone know if any sequencer will actually solve the original question? I'm not at all convinced PT is the answer either. There may not be one?

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I don't think any sequencer would solve the problems of a man with those anger problems!

Cubase is pretty good for midi though.