Hi. I've been tasked with producing a few MP3's for live use from MIDI files.

I'm having some trouble setting their relative levels correct.
Any ideas on how to do that best?

I have put in a limiter with ("Bass" preset for Bass and "Gentle limit" for the EZdrummer track)
I've tried to have each track peack a -3dB in the mix. I've put a (Pro Tools) Maxim mastering limiter in the main bus on each project, and set it to the "CD mastering" preset.

Still, some tracks appears to have more energy, especially in the bass/bassdrum region.

An analog SPL meter in front of the PA would enable me to measure (and re-level) each track, but I don't have one.

A VST or RTAS SPL meter with some kind plotting of levels (historically) would do nicely? I don't need to calibrate it really; the tracks just needs to work with eachother.

Suggestions appreciated :-)

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* wossname * ...if .sig's were fish, this would stink *

You could always try the old fashioned way of using your ears to judge loudness and adjust the level of the tracks manually to suit...

Hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Yes, but at the levels I monitor it would be my guts determining levels, not my ears (I'm "monitoring" on a PA system for this :-)

I ordered a cheapo SPL meter from Amazon.co.uk - let's see if that helps.

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* wossname * ...if .sig's were fish, this would stink *

You'll find it bounces up and down a lot with the dynamics of the music, so you'll probably want it on its slowest setting...

>

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planet nine
lincoln, uk.

Actually, ears are about the only way to do this that works well, it is an area that is getting lots of research, but the phychoacoustics are complex and it turns out that a crude measure like SPL is not really that useful.

Just turn the rig way down, just because you have a huge PA does not automatically mean you have to turn it up.

There was a very interesting paper in JAES October 05 (Jeffrey C. Riedmiller, Steve Lyman, and Charles Robinson) regarding “Program Loudness” that may well be worth a look.

Regards, Dan.

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Audiophiles use phono leads because they are unbalanced people!

Quote wossname?:

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Yes, but at the levels I monitor it would be my guts determining levels, not my ears (I'm "monitoring" on a PA system for this :-)

I ordered a cheapo SPL meter from Amazon.co.uk - let's see if that helps.

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Please indulge me. Why are you forgoing the most sophisticated, flexible and advanced technology available (your own judgement and listening skills) in favour of a 'cheapo SPL meter' from ...

actualy forget it. Best of luck with the SPL meter.

Good question.
next question? :-)

"Cheapo" nowadays doesn't neccesarily mean "bad". I believe it's precise enough for this need - comparing different tracks.

Since I started this thread I've changed my mastering limiter from massey to mpressor with rather good results.

All my tracks now seems to have landed on the same level.

thanks,

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* wossname * ...if .sig's were fish, this would stink *

Quote wossname?:

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"Cheapo" nowadays doesn't neccesarily mean "bad". I believe it's precise enough for this need - comparing different tracks.

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You're quite right -- cheap doesn't necessarily mean bad. It does usually mean uncalibrated, but that's unlikely to be important in your application...

...however, measuring the peak SPL won't provide much in the way of useful information about perceived loudness, and even a long term average reading won't be much help.

There is a lot of work ongoing at the moment about finding ways of reliably measuring perceived volume. BS 1770/1771 is the developing standard which the broadcast industry are starting to adopt and that might be worth reading up on.

In the meatime, I would argue that your ears are still the best method available, regardless of what your belly is telling you! There is a popular adage where I come from about mixing with your ears and not your eyes...

hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

"loudness" is not always relative to the peak levels of a sound or music, but to the power being put out, the dynamic content, the frequency content and of course the freqency contours of your hearing.

By all means try with the SPL meter, it might give you reference and some cause to think and investigate further, but it is very unlikely to be the magic solution you're thinking it is.

Incidentally try it on both "A" and "C" weightings and notice how the bass content seems overproportionally significant on C-weighting, although it is closer to the actual energy being measured. "A" is closer to how human hearing perceives loudness.

That's the word to remember, it's all how it is perceived...

>

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planet nine
lincoln, uk.

Hm. Any good ideas on to compare tracks in a sensible way then?
Closing/opening sessions in pro Tools takes forever.
Export to wav, import then one after another in Pro Tools and then jump between them seems doable.
How can I then "write" level changes to the tracks? Automation on the mastering limiter? Followed by a "render selection" thingie when I'm done...

Yes, this seems to make sense.

thanks again :-)

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* wossname * ...if .sig's were fish, this would stink *

Maybe you could use something like Replay Gain to automate the process?

Well use something quicker like REAPER then. Put tracks in adjacent lanes and solo the tracks you want to listem to.

That's how I compare different mixes, and different tracks for the same album.

>

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planet nine
lincoln, uk.

I'm still a little unsure what you are asking. Are you trying to balance the instruments in the mix to the same levels (you specifically mention the bass / kick level) or have the songs at the same level? If it is the former, chose the song you are happiest with, bounce it and import it into the other song(s). You can now quickly A/B to compare the balance. If it is the latter, take off any master effects and bounce all of the songs. Import them all into a new P/T session where you can top / tail / add fades and add the mastering effects to achieve the same level. Don't forget to also balance frequency content with EQ.

I suspect you may have to do both the above.

p.s. Use your ears... seriously. I have never heard of a mixing or mastering engineer using an SPL meter for anything other than monitor / room calibration.

I'm trying to balance a number of songs to the same perceived level for live use.

I found this on audiomidi.com:
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"T-RackS Metering Suite
The new high quality, high precision, complete metering suite includes:
* A precision three-scale Peak meter with accurate sample indicators and real digital “Over” indication.
* Real Perceived Loudness meter. This is an amazingly useful meter that is not included on most software processors. It shows the REAL loudness that will be perceived on your masters. Compare your preferred records with your works on this meter, and you’ll immediately see where to go with loudness management.
[]
* Spectrum analyzer with Peak, RMS and Averaging indicators.
* RMS meter.
* Loudness and RMS metering “optimal” zones’ indication, selectable by genre and style."

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Looks to be worth 20usd? Yes, I *am* looking for the easy way out :-)

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* wossname * ...if .sig's were fish, this would stink *

Quote Nathan:

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Well use something quicker like REAPER then. Put tracks in adjacent lanes and solo the tracks you want to listem to.

That's how I compare different mixes, and different tracks for the same album.

>

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Adjacent tracks was a better idea, thanks.
Easily done in Pro Tools also, not just Reaper.


I've tried Reaper and whilst I find Pro Tools vaguely confusing I find Reaper massively confusing.
I wasn't even able to get Acidized WAV and REX files to behave the way I assume they should in Reaper :-/

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* wossname * ...if .sig's were fish, this would stink *

Quote Hugh Robjohns:

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In the meatime, I would argue that your ears are still the best method available, regardless of what your belly is telling you! There is a popular adage where I come from about mixing with your ears and not your eyes...
hugh

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Thanks, Huge. You are ofcourse correct about the "mixing with your ears". (I'm still looking for an easy way out though:-)

I've gotten lots of good input here, that will make comparing & re-leveling of the tracks much easier!
This makes "mixing with my ears" much more viable, thanks guys :-)

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* wossname * ...if .sig's were fish, this would stink *

Quote GaryM:

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Maybe you could use something like Replay Gain to automate the process?

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That does indeed look interesting. I believe I turned on the "make alle the songs sound about the same volume" button in iTunes.

...but as the guys here are explaning to me - perceived loudness in a Live/PA setting is quite different from something easily measurable, so I guess I'll go down the "compare tracks & re-level" route.

thanks anyways :-)

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* wossname * ...if .sig's were fish, this would stink *