Just want to say how great it is to see a SOS doing a series on working with video. I hope it becomes a regular feature. there is so much overlap between the the music and video industries these days that it is about time this was addressed.
Having been writing and composing for many years I have just found my first serious work filming and editing hi res footage for a theatre company. As the article suggests it is not a great leap for someone who is used to recording and editing audio, but has been a minefield trying to work out the pros and cons of the different formats and how to get them into Final Cut. My 5 year-old Mac which was one of the fastest around has been reduced to a crawl and I have just discovered that adding 4 GB ram to one board is little use unless I balance it out by adding 4gigs to the other. Apparently Final Cut prefers it that way.
So I would like more in depth look at various aspects of working with video in the future, but thanks again to Mr Harding for a very useful and timely article.

Ian

Hmm. I don't know.

I'd welcome a large feature on video, but I'm not so sure a dedicated video section in SOS makes sense (I'm sure the editorial team have struggled with the issue and have ultimately come down in favour of it, so they obviously think it does).

Most likely they've been thinking about this since adding video editorial content and having to develop workflows for this.

In a video mag, audio sections make sense because audio + video really are two (important) parts of the whole. However, you wouldn't see, say, a regular "songwriting" feature in a FinalCutPro mag.

In an audio mag, especially one that has never really had audio post as a focus - largely traditional studio work, location recording, and soundtrack composition - I'm not sure it makes as much sense. Video is a massive area, and it takes a lot just to get your head around formats and workflows and terminology (I'm not just talking about shooting something on your camera and upping it to YouTube) - can a small section do it much justice?

I understand the need to diversify and expand - but if people are really into video, they are likely to get their education for other places than a few pages in a music gear mag.

After seeing all the Mac magazines now have more iPhone/iPad content than Mac stuff, am I going to be picking up SOS only to have to wade through video walkthroughs in Vegas and all the "How To Frame Your Shot" type stuff too..?

We'll see how it pans out, I'm sure, and the editorial team will doubtless make a good job of it - so I won't pre-judge something I haven't seen. But I'm... wary...

(And yes, I'm sitting in front of FCP as we speak, so I'm not a stranger to video by any stretch... And my arm still aches from shooting with a Sony Z5 on a Glidecam - try holding 10 kilos with one arm out in front of you and see how long *you* last... )


Edited by desmond (25/04/10 06:33 PM)

I agree, I flicked through the mag and when I saw that it confused me a little. I assumed it might have been focused on sound (not read it yet, maybe it is). But if people wanted to know about video, they'd get a video mag... not a sound mag with an article about video.

No problem with the very occasional one-off but a regular thing.. I'm not too keen on that idea. Somone could say back to me "well, you didn't read it, what do you know"... Well I know my subscription is for sound on sound and video isn't what I read it for

Quote desmond:

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Video is a massive area, and it takes a lot just to get your head around formats and workflows and terminology (I'm not just talking about shooting something on your camera and upping it to YouTube) - can a small section do it much justice?

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It is and it does -- as the opening article makes clear. But that's the specific advantage of having a dedicated section in the mag for it rather than running occasional articles. We don't have to get a thousand heavy points across in one hit -- it can be divided down into lots of smaller, gentler, more progressive features over the course of a year.

Quote:

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...if people are really into video, they are likely to get their education for other places than a few pages in a music gear mag.

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Our research indicated that these 'other places' don't really exist, or at least they don't present the information in the way that we think it should be done, or in a way which makes sense to audio people.

And our reader surveys do appear to suggest video is a growing area of interest for a lot of our readers -- music for or with pictures seems to be the growing trend. People want to post youtoob videos with their music on it. They want to be able to work with video... and certainly in my experience, audio people pick up video editing and production a lot quicker and easier than people with other backgrounds!

Quote:

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...am I going to be picking up SOS only to have to wade through video walkthroughs in Vegas and all the "How To Frame Your Shot" type stuff too..?

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We're not removing ANY of the normal audio-centric content, and the video section will remain a relatively small section of the mag which you can easily skip tover if it is really of no interest. We've been able to add extra pages to the SOS mag specifically to house the video section partly as as result of the demise of Performing Musician and the resources that decision released.

So you're not losing anything of the original magazine, you're gaining something that may well prove to be useful in your future activities or career -- we all need to be multiskilled these days, after all.

But it's early days yet -- we've only had one issue. Let's see how it progresses...

Hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Quote Hugh Robjohns:

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We're not removing ANY of the normal audio-centric content, and the video section will remain a relatively small section of the mag which you can easily skip tover if it is really of no interest. We've been able to add extra pages to the SOS mag specifically to house the video section partly as as result of the demise of Performing Musician and the resources that decision released.

Hugh

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That's good, my main concern would be that it was replacing audio focused content. In that case I have no objections to something a little different each month. Maybe it won't be just video that gets a look in.

one thing i'd definitely be interested in seeing is a breakdown of what all the various video filetypes actually are - what exactly is the difference between .avi, mpeg2, divx, h264, and all that?

perhaps a good way would be by comparison to audio filetypes - SOS readers will know what .wav, .mp3, and FLAC are (uncompressed, lossy compressed, lossless compressed), for instance, so this might be a good starting point?

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hourglass | random thoughts | doubledotdash!? collective

Quote onesecondglance:

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one thing i'd definitely be interested in seeing is a breakdown of what all the various video filetypes actually are...?

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Then you'll be pleased to read Jules' second feature coming in the next issue...

Hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Quote Hugh Robjohns:

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Quote onesecondglance:

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one thing i'd definitely be interested in seeing is a breakdown of what all the various video filetypes actually are...?

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Then you'll be pleased to read Jules' second feature coming in the next issue...

Hugh

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you guys...

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hourglass | random thoughts | doubledotdash!? collective

Quote Hugh Robjohns:

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But that's the specific advantage of having a dedicated section in the mag for it rather than running occasional articles. We don't have to get a thousand heavy points across in one hit -- it can be divided down into lots of smaller, gentler, more progressive features over the course of a year.

---

Indeed.

Quote Hugh Robjohns:

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Hugh Robjohns Quote:

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...if people are really into video, they are likely to get their education for other places than a few pages in a music gear mag.

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Our research indicated that these 'other places' don't really exist, or at least they don't present the information in the way that we think it should be done, or in a way which makes sense to audio people.

---

Of course they exist - in fact, there are probably more video/graphics sources out there than audio - and very many excellent ones indeed.

I've made a very conscious effort over the last few years to jump in an educate myself in video - it's something I've always done since being a kid, but it's a whole different world in pro-video.

Quote Hugh Robjohns:

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And our reader surveys do appear to suggest video is a growing area of interest for a lot of our readers -- music for or with pictures seems to be the growing trend. People want to post youtoob videos with their music on it. They want to be able to work with video... and certainly in my experience, audio people pick up video editing and production a lot quicker and easier than people with other backgrounds!

---

True. I've also found that people who don't come from an audio background and get into video often do a *really* bad job on the audio - having a good audio background is *definitely* a helpful and advantageous thing, in my experience.

And it seems many many musician's are quite keen photographers, and the convergence of video and photography is also feeding an interest in video - lots of cross-fertilisation opportunities.

Quote Hugh Robjohns:

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Hugh Robjohns Quote:

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...am I going to be picking up SOS only to have to wade through video walkthroughs in Vegas and all the "How To Frame Your Shot" type stuff too..?

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We're not removing ANY of the normal audio-centric content, and the video section will remain a relatively small section of the mag which you can easily skip tover if it is really of no interest. We've been able to add extra pages to the SOS mag specifically to house the video section partly as as result of the demise of Performing Musician and the resources that decision released.

---

I understand that, and I made no reference to removing content to make way for the video stuff. I was just expressing a hope that my favourite thumb through my favourite magazine is not going to turn into a "What Camcorder?" type thing.

I care about SOS, it's been with me since the mid eighties, which is why I express my concern here. Hopefully, I'll have nothing to worry about, and find things that are relevant to me (as I very much do video and graphics) and can learn something. We'll see - as I said, I'm not pre-judging and I trust you guys to do a good job.

But I'll be the first person to give my feedback if I don't think that's the case

Quote Hugh Robjohns:

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we all need to be multiskilled these days, after all.

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Indeed.

Quote Hugh Robjohns:

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Let's see how it progresses...

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For sure...

I'd just like to add my support for the new video section in the magazine.

I work with video, in that I record live events and then mix down the audio to video, and I also provide video gear and vision mixing/recording (along with multitrack recording) for webcasting for local festivals (no expert though). It had never occured to me though, that there would be interest from SOS and interest in video from the readership, but I will be following future months with interest.

I know it's not an ideal world, but I hope this will count as addition to the pages of the magazine and not replacement for other sections.

Nathan.

>

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planet nine
lincoln, uk.

Quote Hugh Robjohns:

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We're not removing ANY of the normal audio-centric content

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Where has the "Sound Advice" section gone in this issue? I only get the online version of the mag now but I don't see this anywhere for this months issue

Bryan

P.S. I quite welcome the new video section...

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easily pleased...

Quote coojuice:

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Quote Hugh Robjohns:

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We're not removing ANY of the normal audio-centric content

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Where has the "Sound Advice" section gone in this issue? I only get the online version of the mag now but I don't see this anywhere for this months issue

Bryan

P.S. I quite welcome the new video section...

---

Hi Bryan,


Hugh was referring to the fact that the editorial page count for audio content in the mag has not suffered and will not suffer to accommodate the new video content. The various columns we include will continue to change from time to time, and in the case of Sound Advice, we haven't run that section for quite some time!

To be honest, we found ourselves scratching around trying to think what topic would be suitable to cover each month, and we'd much rather just think of good features and technique workshops and put them in the mag. It goes without saying that if there are any areas you'd be keen to learn about — in Sound Advice format or any other! — then don't be scared to ask!

Regards,

Matt

Quote coojuice:

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Where has the "Sound Advice" section gone in this issue? I only get the online version of the mag now but I don't see this anywhere for this months issue

Bryan

P.S. I quite welcome the new video section...

---

Quote Matt Houghton:

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.. in the case of Sound Advice, we haven't run that section for quite some time!

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Err, Matt, crossed wires here I think. Bryan is referring to the WEB articles that appear under the red SOUND ADVICE title bar on Contents.php page (which in print are called Q&A).

Bryan - the missing SA web articles have been put back online see bottom left (scroll down) of page here: http://www.soundonsound.com/Contents.php?Month=5&Year=2010 Apologies for their brief disappearance.

Matt's confusion comes about because there used to be a Paul and Hugh reply to a single question which used to be titled "Sound Advice" in the print version only, but we dropped this segregation approx one year ago.

Hope this clarifies matters?

Ian

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SOS Gear Videos now screening on www.SoundOnSound.tv
SOS Podcasts

Yep, it was the Q&A I was refering to.

Thanks for the clarification Ian

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easily pleased...

Not had time to read this thread properly, but just want to say thumbs up to a video section aimed at audio folks!

As Hugh pointed out, this area is not currently catered for.

One thing, I think the article got in far too deep for it to be a beginners guide. I know a little of the basics about video, but I was lost in places. Need to tone it down a little and add a glossary to explain key terminology.

Just to add...

I'm sure it's coming, but a good feature on audio and video would be very welcome. Formats, getting audio in, syncing, editing to picture, mixing, hardware (including on camera mics and connectors), cameras featuring line in (can't believe how rare these are before spending silly money).

A feature on green / blue screen - for cheesy pop videos!

Mixing in surround to picture, including possibilities with 3D (this will be big).

Sound effects and the possibilities of placing people / objects in different spaces using convolution reverb etc.

I know what you mean about the intro article being a big leap in places -- and just wait until you read part 2 -- a real technofest head-banger!

Thankfully, the advantage of a dedicated section, rather than ad hoc articles squeezed in amongst the normal content is that there will be the space and continuity to cover all the things you've suggested in the months to come, as well as looking at countless other aspects in greater detail and for novices as well as current practitioners.

Hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Can I just say that I think this new series is a wonderful idea? Just by coincidence I did a live gig with my band from which we had a few video recordings but we needed to update the audio and have some titles, mix different video bits and stuff. The articles in this issue helped me pick a cheap and great software solution to do so (Vegas Movie Studio) and had other great pointers. Looking forward to the other articles!

For those interested, our first video on YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ek4MoP3DiY0.

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Member of 87PM - check out our new album Ocean Coast! http://ocean-coast.kara-moon.com/

I haven't had a chance to read the new video section in depth yet, but after a quick scan I was rather alarmed to see the cheapest of the "5 Best Buys" cameras to be a whopping £779 (body only!)... the next in the list was an eye-watering £3995! Please remember SOS that many of us are "project" studio owners and it would be nice to have some products/advice in that spirit... something along the lines of: "Top 5 budget second-hand video cameras with audio input you can pick up on ebay for less than a £100"...?

Quote Jelnet:

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I haven't had a chance to read the new video section in depth yet, but after a quick scan I was rather alarmed to see the cheapest of the "5 Best Buys" cameras to be a whopping £779 (body only!)... the next in the list was an eye-watering £3995! Please remember SOS that many of us are "project" studio owners and it would be nice to have some products/advice in that spirit... something along the lines of: "Top 5 budget second-hand video cameras with audio input you can pick up on ebay for less than a £100"...?

---

Well, you've got to start somewhere — and I'm sure there will be reviews of cheaper gadgets as the months go by.

Thanks for all the feedback, sorry I've not had much time to write here in the forum, I've been working hard on the next Video Media section! We're looking forward to covering lots of areas of video production in the coming months, and the "Media" of the title leaves us open to cover other related areas, such as sound for video and other media, if needs be.

Please do post any and all ideas and feedback here in the Video Media forum, whatever level of experience you have, and hopefully we can please the majority of readers with our article selection. After all, what better place to get suggestions for articles than our readers?

Quote Jelnet:

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I haven't had a chance to read the new video section in depth yet, but after a quick scan I was rather alarmed to see the cheapest of the "5 Best Buys" cameras to be a whopping £779 (body only!)... the next in the list was an eye-watering £3995! Please remember SOS that many of us are "project" studio owners and it would be nice to have some products/advice in that spirit... something along the lines of: "Top 5 budget second-hand video cameras with audio input you can pick up on ebay for less than a £100"...?

---

The text above the camera best buys section says: "Prices are list, but some models are well established and can be bought for less, or hired." for good reason! A lot of the models listed can be bought for a lot less if you shop around, but we can't print hugely discounted offer prices in the mag, we leave the bargain hunting to you guys. 2nd hand models and hiring can net you a deal. You can hire a DV cam for a whole weekend for under £100 if you shop about, it's well worth a go.

Shopping about, the 550D body can be had for about £580 or so, a Sony V1 can be had for under £2000 new if you hunt, even less second hand. OK, they aren't "cheap", but prices are coming down all the time. Expect a forthcoming 5 Best Buys to include budget pocket video recorders.

Quote Mixedup:

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Well, you've got to start somewhere — and I'm sure there will be reviews of cheaper gadgets as the months go by.

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Indeed! The Zoom Q3 (£199) review will be with you shortly, with more cameras and capture devices of varying prices and qualities to follow. Even as the Q3 was being reviewed the price came down, these are exciting times for budding video-producers the world over!

Quote Hugh Robjohns:

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I know what you mean about the intro article being a big leap in places -- and just wait until you read part 2 -- a real technofest head-banger!

---

Yes it's true, part two is heavier going, but experienced videographers may find it a little light on detail! Hopefully it will give enough knowledge to make most of readers happy, and serve as either a brief reference text or starting point for further research!

Keep the feedback coming!

--------------------
Director, singer-songwriter and producer.
Click here for my portfolio

Quote J G Harding:

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... The Zoom Q3 (£199) review will be with you shortly, with more cameras and capture devices of varying prices and qualities to follow. Even as the Q3 was being reviewed the price came down, these are exciting times for budding video-producers the world over!

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Cheers JG for the feedback on the feedback! I took a look at the Zoom Q3 and it looks good... but there is one issue for me - no audio input. The thing is, as musos most of us already have pretty good mics and also need to be quite specific about where they're placed for recording things like acoustic guitar/drums etc. So while things like the Zoom may have a great stereo mic, the lack of an audio in means our own mics / mic position / output from a sub-mixer is wasted. Also, the mic position is tied to shooting position.

I've found it really hard to find a budget cam with a stereo audio (RCA or jack) input. I guess they exist but so far I haven't come across one - so that's what I'd be interested in.

Anyway am sure the video section is a very worthwile addition and gives us even more value for money - so looking forward to more

Quote Jelnet:

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I've found it really hard to find a budget cam with a stereo audio (RCA or jack) input. I guess they exist but so far I haven't come across one - so that's what I'd be interested in.

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FYI: I don't think they do exist! Video cameras come in almost exclusively just three types:

1 - no mic inputs at all - on board mic(s) only
2 - stereo 3.5mm mini-jack socket for external mics (maybe this is what you're looking for?)
3 - dual XLR sockets (mic/line and phantom switchable) for external mics/line sources.

--------------------
Martin at HeadSpin

No problem, the more dialogue we have between readers and editorial, the better we can please our readers!

Quote Jelnet:

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I've found it really hard to find a budget cam with a stereo audio (RCA or jack) input. I guess they exist but so far I haven't come across one - so that's what I'd be interested in.

Anyway am sure the video section is a very worthwile addition and gives us even more value for money - so looking forward to more

---

An option is to use a separate sound recorder, like the Zoom H4N. That way you'll get stereo location sound and two XLR inputs for 'lav' mics or shotguns. But you'll have to sync up the audio and video using a clapperboard or equivalent sound source, of course. This method tends to make you be more studious when logging takes, so it's good all round, but adds work.

Even with some XLR equipped cameras sound can be less than desirable. The Sony HVR Z1 for example picks up a loud broad-band whine from the tape transport, something that's difficult to sort out in post. Less of a problem with solid-state gear, but there's more money in the visual components than the audio AD conversion and the like.

I like the freedom of recording separate audio, but it means more people and gear on set, and longer spent in post. Sound Devices make plenty of wonderful high-end recorders, for those with money to spare.

The Q3 lack of jack input was surprising, but since it's aimed at creating live videos quickly and easily it was probably a good candidate for cost cutting, when compared to lowering the quality of other components.

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Director, singer-songwriter and producer.
Click here for my portfolio

Quote mooblie:

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2 - stereo 3.5mm mini-jack socket for external mics (maybe this is what you're looking for?)

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Quote J G Harding:

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An option is to use a separate sound recorder, like the Zoom H4N. That way you'll get stereo location sound and two XLR inputs for 'lav' mics or shotguns. But you'll have to sync up the audio and video using a clapperboard or equivalent sound source, of course. This method tends to make you be more studious when logging takes, so it's good all round, but adds work.

---

Thnaks both for your replies. I guess it might be possible to route audio from, say a mixer, into a camera that has an external mic input via mini-jack using some sort of adaptor. However I don't know what kind of results could be achieved here since I imagine the mic input would have some sort of preamp and as such may not be suitable with a line level output or similar - might be worth a try though I wonder if anyone has experience of this?

I guess the separate audio method is best and indeed many of us will already have recording systems, some portable. As mentioned this will add work and some level of technical know-how, which for me is lacking at present. Guess I better get reading the articles!

3.5mm inputs are often marred by AGC (Auto Gain Control), a form of heavy-handed preset compression that's invariably destructive to sound quality.

If this can't be disabled in camera (and sometimes it can't) then there a several offerings from Beachtek that can help, screwing into the camera base, providing phantom powered XLR sockets and a special high-frequency "pilot tone" that defeats the AGC.

They have models for both camcorder and DSLR use, have a look and see if they'd fit your needs and budget.

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Director, singer-songwriter and producer.
Click here for my portfolio

Just want to jump in and say Thanks to the new Video section, although I'm not into that yet, but it's always good to know the stuff before learning the hard way .

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DP user. Beta Tester for ToonTrack.

How about making the video section a separate pull-out supplement so it can be neatly dropped in the recycling bin/saved in one place as a treasured resource - depending on individual preference.

Can we, in the future, look forward to perhaps a car section courtesy of one of your failed motoring publications or a mobile phone column?

Quote jefffm:

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How about making the video section a separate pull-out supplement

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Unlikely, since it's not included as a 'supplement' but rather as an integral part of the magazine, along with all the DAW platform notes, reviews, features, news and all the rest.

Quote:

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Can we, in the future, look forward to perhaps a car section courtesy of one of your failed motoring publications or a mobile phone column?

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I fear you have confused us with another publisher entirely. SOS Publications only publishes Sound On Sound. We don't produce motoring magazines, failed or otherwise I'm afraid.

The video features and articles have been introduced due, mostly, to reader feedback. But your desire for more on mobile phones could yet come true as we have also received quite a lot of feedback from people interested in the musical technology applications of the latest mobile phones...

Hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

The video section is a great idea, I've already learned loads of stuff, long may it continue, don't listen to the folks with narrow interests it can only broaden peoples horizons.

methinks jeff works for future publishing

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if you don't know who i am, i aint gonna tell you.