Quote Vlaaing Peerd:

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Peter seems to me a person that works for a system reseller that primarily sell Intel systems.

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Peter works for a company building audio (and other) PCs to order. it wouldn't be in their interests to blindly favour one manufacturer over another as their customers (i.e. US) care about real world performance, not which brand name is under the hood.

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hourglass | random thoughts | doubledotdash!? collective

Quote johnny h:

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Quote Vlaaing Peerd:

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Quote Pete Kaine:

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All of them as it's a chipset controller limitation/bottleneck from what we could establish. Hypertransport appears to be getting a bit long in the tooth now and they seriously need to stop hanging onto boards that are half a decade old and give the whole lot an overhaul.

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Hypertransport is controlled by the MCH in the CPU, not the chipset.

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Yeah, I know (I refer to this in a later part of the thread) I just put the slash in the wrong place. For clarity I should have put "chipset/controller limitation".

Quote:

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Total bandwidth is not that much lower of a comparably priced Intel CPU and not at all is the bottleneck in the system if needed for a common DAW, usually it is the CPU and HDD.

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We we're maxing it out to hit the limit and your right in current day to day use it's fine. But the fact that we could hit the limit means that upgradablilty is questionable as your right, it is normally the cpu that's the bottleneck.

All I'm trying to say there is "Yes you've all had a nice upgrade path for the last 5 years, but the chipset is showing it's age and you shouldn't expect it to continue and if it does be aware that further generations of 6 core AMD's may tax the underlaying design".

Quote:

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besides this, Intels Quickpath technology is almost a direct copy of the HT bus from AMD, so you could say Intel was very slow to implement such an old method.

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I did.

I also pointed out that,that has very little to do with the arguement.

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Chipsets for AMD systems mostly control PCI-e bandwidth, USB and is the HDD controller, none of this in the chipset is slower or has less bandwidth then Intels current flagship chipset for desktop the X58,

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My applogies for the slip up then. When I was writting that I was thinking along the lines of how you can adjust the available memory bandwidth on the Intel boards via the bios and I assumed mentally that you would be able to raise this as well on the AMD ones. That's what I ment by the chipset ability. If the Cpu to memory bandwidth is locked out then it's just another negitive.

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actually AMD chipset already natively support USB 3.0 while you need to add another controler chip on an Intel system for USB 3.0 support, making it more expensive then needed.

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USB 3 support will native with Sandybridge by the end of the year.

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Also nobody ever looked at what Intels CPU controlled PCI-e/MCH will have as effect in the future, when these hi-bandwidth protocols are fullly utilised in the near future. I don't expect we will still be able to utilise the full PCI-e 2.0 bandwidth and the 8,5GB/s memory bandwidth together pumped through the CPU.

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It's a fair if not widely speculative question. I'm having trouble trying to think of any common combination that would max it out currently. We did pretty much manage it by attaching 2 dozern raided SSD drives via multiple pci-e controller a pair of qudro's and 24Gb's of memory and proceeded to run analyst software that was custom written for a oil drilling company. The speed of the data coming from the PCI-E buss bottle necked in the end.

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This is pure (and wild) speculation which has nothing to do with buying a system today.

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Unless your drilling for oil

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edit: Server/workstation; totally different ballgame?

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maybe not. Have a look at AMD G34 chipset boards, for the price of a system based on the the topmodel Corei7 you can build a 24core (yes indeed: 24 cores) AMD system w. Also AMD server/WS boards widely support desktop operating systems in comparison to the Intel Xeon chipsets do not.

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I know the AMD server chips are the better chips. That what I ment by a different ballgame. I really need to go and bench some AMD solutions now you mention it as last time I tried was a real lack of quiet coolers for Opteron boards.

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yes, Intel has the fastest chip/highest memory bandwidth, but only if you pay dearly for it. If like most of us you are on a certain budget you'd be plain stupid to discard AMD as a possible option. Even if someone representing a PC reseller recommends otherwise.

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Currect.

Think I recall saying that already.

I love how everyone is having a go at me for simply answering a few previous comments.

Timeline of thread:

Yes I'm aware that he was asking how the AMD upgrades were going.

Johnny replyed in his ever so blunt and loverable fashion.

Dragonloops had a pop at him and stated some facts I don't agree with from personal experiance and testing.

The was some debate about facts.

This thread may have the topic about AMD but the original OP made it clear that he was upgrading from Intel and the was no cheap valid upgrade path in either direction.

Yes it would be cheaper to go AMD short term. But the reasoning that it'll save you money long term isn't a certainity. I was laying out the reasons and all of a sudden I've been turned into a spokesman for Intel to be burned at the stake.

Quote:

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Edit2: Sorry I made a mistake, Quad CPU AMD boards are still a little expensive. For the price of Intels fastest desktop CPU + MB you can only get a 16 core AMD system and still save a few hundred euro's.

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Hmmm....

G34 board is about £400
2.4Ghz 8 core Opteron 6136 is about £600

So 2 of those and one of those would be £1600
A 980X and a motherboard will cost about £1000

I'm not seeing a saving...

I'm honestly out of the loop on the Opterons as I've not tested any this year. This is because the was no suitable cooling to use them in the audio/video realm. I'll look into these again but I don't fancy my options with finding suitable cooling.

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Anyone already benched a dual 8-core Opteron vs the i7 980?

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No but now you mention it, it's on my to do list somewhere in the next couple of weeks. Bare in mind through that a single 980X will absolutly flatten all the quad core Xeons in dual chip configurations. Even through Dual Xeons are lagging behind dual Opertrons the 980X may hold it's own. It'll be interesting to see anyhow.

Quote Vlaaing Peerd:

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Peter seems to me a person that works for a system reseller that primarily sell Intel systems.

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We'll sell what ever works best for the customer. If someone wants an AMD we'll build an AMD. If someone says "I need a machine to run this but I'm not sure which will be better" we'll bench a AMD and a Intel if required and establish that for them. Over the years we've developed solutions for AMD, Intel, ATI, Nvidia as well as testing and working on launchs with them.

We'll work with whoevers best at the given time as it's our customers we have to please.

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an AMD G34 system can fit on a normal ATX-form factor tower chassis, yes you have one cpu fan more, noise is however completely neglible and you are able to passively cool the CPU, provided you use a large (but very silent) case cooler.

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Now that interests me. Passivly cooled server chips is a interesting idea but it would be very case dependent and it's find one of those that would be the pain.

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Don't get me wrong, I am a happy Intel user myself, but read the starters post, DG is on a budget, he needs to get the best performance he can get for thwe money he has to spend, is the i5 you mention a better performer then the AMD you can get for the same price? And you're all shooting off AMD based on vaguely described arguments from an Intel systems integrator?

Show me the benchmark, show me the price and I'll be happy to change my opinion.

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Dawbench

i5 750

32 : 104
64 : 114
128 : 120
256 : 124

Amd 1090T Black

32 : 96
64 : 110
128 : 119
256 : 142

Parts used:

Intel

Intel Core i5 750 - £159.98
Gigabyte GA-P55A-UD3 - £109.92
Corsair XMS3 DDR3 PC3-12800 - 96.49

Total - 366.39

AMD

AMD Phenom II X6 1090T Black Edition -£239.58
Gigabyte GA-870A-UD3 - £87.62
Corsair XMS3 DDR3 PC3-12800 - 96.49

Total - 423.69

And that folks is why I recommend Intel over AMD.

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and eh..oyea, server/workstation system is ridiculous for a DAW? what does the last letter of DAW stand for?

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Heh. Fair comment. His point was is that they are normally too noisy to be suitable.

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ScanProAudio & 3XS Audio Systems
ScanProAudio Blog

Quote Pete Kaine:

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Timeline of thread:

Yes I'm aware that he was asking how the AMD upgrades were going.

Johnny replyed in his ever so blunt and loverable fashion.

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That make me chuckle

Quote:

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Quote:

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Show me the benchmark, show me the price and I'll be happy to change my opinion.

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Dawbench

i5 750

32 : 104
64 : 114
128 : 120
256 : 124

Amd 1090T Black

32 : 96
64 : 110
128 : 119
256 : 142

Parts used:

Intel

Intel Core i5 750 - £159.98
Gigabyte GA-P55A-UD3 - £109.92
Corsair XMS3 DDR3 PC3-12800 - 96.49

Total - 366.39

AMD

AMD Phenom II X6 1090T Black Edition -£239.58
Gigabyte GA-870A-UD3 - £87.62
Corsair XMS3 DDR3 PC3-12800 - 96.49

Total - 423.69

And that folks is why I recommend Intel over AMD.

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Thanks for clearing that up for us, Peter. Though I am a little at a loss as to exactly what those numbers represent.

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Quote:

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and eh..oyea, server/workstation system is ridiculous for a DAW? what does the last letter of DAW stand for?

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Heh. Fair comment. His point was is that they are normally too noisy to be suitable.

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Yeah. Also I think there would be less testing of audio software on multiprocessor machines.

Quote johnny h:

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Thanks for clearing that up for us, Peter. Though I am a little at a loss as to exactly what those numbers represent.

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Latency setting on the left and number of Reaxcomp instances on the right. Sorry I should have added identifiers above the figures.

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ScanProAudio & 3XS Audio Systems
ScanProAudio Blog

Quote Pete Kaine:

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Quote table for two:

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Haven't posted here for a while, mainly because left the IT game a while ago

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Welcome back

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Thanx Pete

Hope you are well.


I thought of posting a lengthy prose, then i remembered, and this thread reminded me, why i left IT, and also to an extent left this PC forum.
I wish i hadn't written that earlier post.

You know, if one system offers % more less than another It doesn't help improve our songwriting, our music making.
Neither does the acquisition of gigaybtes of sample libraries, softsynths, plugins..

I think we know material acquisition hinders our creative spirit ... which thrives on the non material, as well as simplicity within ourself ... uncultured unfettered.


We only need one instrument to express our heart.


............



This trend towards the "heavy" in tv, movie, ad scores has made the requirement for ever more powerful DAWs, larger and larger sample libraries, this n that soft synth, plugin.
Yet all of these are in a way redundant, when we just need a basic pc, basic gear to express the emotiveness of the visual, to express our soul.


And that's why my AMD quad is hardly ever used and is going to a good home.


............


At the same time the people who work in the DAW industry, the audio software industry, this is their livelihood, how they feed their families.
If everyone went simple it would be hard on them.


............



With regard to where AMD Intel are, it is a point of principle for me that i support the little guy, the underdog, who happen to have excellent products.
There are thousands of AMD employees whose families depend on AMD being in the market and doing well.

Also it is competition from the little guy, the innovations from the little guy that push the big guy to give better products, else the big guy would just give what it felt it should ... drip feed for most profit.

You know Peter we are going to have to watch you like a Hawk, firstly you would find that the AMD Quad would give pretty much the same bench... and then there is the mobo you use, one would think that because you are stuck on Intel, you are likewise stuck on Gigabyte... and have the same meal every night

The GA-870A-UD3 has a 870 chipset

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AMD's Turbo CORE technology is now available in 'Thuban' Phenom-II AM3 desktop processors, beginning with the 2.8GHz X6-1055T and 3.2GHz X6-1090T CPUs. Turbo CORE senses when three of the six processor cores are not in use, and automatically boosts the clock speed up to 500MHz. Paired with the AMD 890FX chipset found on ASUS' Crosshair-IV Formula ROG motherboard, the AMD Phenom-II X6-1090T Black Edition CPU can reach 4.0GHz on all six cores with an additional 4.3GHz Turbo CORE

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www.dragonlogos.co.uk

Quote DragonLogos:

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You know Peter we are going to have to watch you like a Hawk, firstly you would find that the AMD Quad would give pretty much the same bench... and then there is the mobo you use, one would think that because you are stuck on Intel, you are likewise stuck on Gigabyte... and have the same meal every night

The GA-870A-UD3 has a 870 chipset

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Have you ever been on robot wars by any chance?

No but I've been an IBM systems engineer for over twenty years and in the electronics trade for over thirty

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www.dragonlogos.co.uk

Quote:

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Pete Kaine - The current 6 core AMD's not only have that bandwidth issue but the's a thermal throttle at around 80 degrees which hampered my testing whilst using a stock cooler (hell it hampered my testing whilst using an aftermarket one as well) so in a real world situation where the doesn't happen to be an air con the size of a large freezer hanging above the desk is anyone's guess

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http://www.guru3d.com/article/asus-crosshair-iv-formula-review/

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The Crosshair IV Formula is the Mc Daddy of AMD 890FX motherboards, the alpha dog motherboards loaded with features like the aforementioned, but also USB 3.0, automated overclock switches ..and get this four PCIe x16 slots and even core unlock functionality by pressing a button.

The Crosshair IV Formula oozes with features and performance, the six-core Phenom II X6 processor review which you probably just read was overclocked towards 4.1 GHz on a cheapo CPU air-cooler .. based on this motherboard.

All in all we got a thing or two to tell ya .. show ya .. and explain to ya. Head on over to the next page, where we'll head deeply into the AMD 890 FX chipset and the ASUS Crosshair IV Formula motherboard that has the 890FX chipset embedded.

But first have a look at one of the most attractive looking motherboards of all time ...

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I am not going to pull that image in... but everyone do yourselves a kindness, click on the link and have a look

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www.dragonlogos.co.uk

http://www.guru3d.com/article/asus-crosshair-iv-formula-review/2

Quote:

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New in the 890 FX chipset, is IOMMU support. Not something that the majority of you guys would be interested in but it allows for virtual addressing of memory by system devices. This enables devices to use their native drivers in a virtualized environment for enhanced performance. In a non-virtualized environment, IOMMU provides memory isolation and protection capabilities - device access to system memory is vetted by the IOMMU such that critical/unrelated memory information (e.g. kernel pages, protected content …) can be protected, leading overall to a more robust system. With an updated Hyperlink (revision 3) we now can connect to the SB850 chip with a well-appointed 2GB/sec bandwidth (full-duplex)

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www.dragonlogos.co.uk

http://www.guru3d.com/article/asus-crosshair-iv-formula-review/3

Quote:

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The Crosshair IV Formula deploys the latest chipset architecture from AMD, opening up the current performance CPUs on the market. Enabling processors to come into their own is exactly what a good motherboard does, and the new Crosshair achieves this in several ways—not least of which is ROG Connect, a built-in overclocking engine that maximizes benchmark scores by tuning and monitoring from a remote PC via USB, like a notebook. This way users can overclock while benchmarking, so all resources remain available to better performance. ROG Connect also serves as an in-depth monitoring tool—gearheads can easily obtain readings to see the effects mods such as overvolting have on their system.

ASUS and Republic of Gamers also announce Core Unlocker, an exclusive technology praised by worldwide media, to inject great value and performance into gaming setups. It’s well known that many CPUs come with multiple cores deactivated during fabrication, and Core Unlocker brings those back to life. Users simply have to press one button on the board and the AMD CPU placed in the socket goes through a physical scan in search of dormant cores. Dual core CPUs can become triple or quad in minutes, with obvious computing horsepower benefits

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www.dragonlogos.co.uk

Quote DragonLogos:

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http://www.guru3d.com/article/asus-crosshair-iv-formula-review/3

Quote:

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(snipped) A lot of AMD press releases

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Did you not understand the audio benchmarks? AMD is slower and significantly more expensive! Especially under low latency settings.

Yeah I understand them, you also have to do your tests on the right board, the weakest link concept apples

Do you perhaps understand that only the i7 980X unlocks, and that is why it does what it does, the other i7s do not and neither do the i5s - But the AMD Dragons can - and not one of your i5s even come close to the unlocked Dragons... and yet you recommend the i5 - BTW as said before the i7s can use triple memory and have a good bandwidth rating because of that, it would mean putting in three two gig high end memory modules to get it... your i5 is only dual, and yet you still feel people should go that route - have faith, believe in a company that got nicked for dirty tricks, mind you they could win the EU anti trust appeal

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www.dragonlogos.co.uk

I haven't even got into the audio side of it yet, maybe waiting for someone to say, yes but that's OK for gamers

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www.dragonlogos.co.uk

Wow,

Who needs MAC v PC when the AMDian lobby are around ?

@ Peter,

Take it from experience, no matter what evidence you present, when it involves AMD v Intel you will be opening yourself up to to this manner of melodrama, as people will always find their own truth.

I always find it entertaining when 3D and/or synthetic benchmarks are pulled out as some yardstick to how a chip is supposedly performing comparative in an audio application. They have never bared any resemblance , nor will they. The whole idea of developing the DAWbench incremental benchmark methodology was to get a better idea of audio specific scaling of the subsystems, and no matter how much hype and bubble is presented, the fact of the matter is that the AMD architecture is not on the same playing field as the current Intel architecture for audio specific application.

The AMD 6 cores are simply 2 extra cores bolted onto the existing sub system architecture that didn't have the required extra overhead to cater for the added I/O, whether that is the memory controller, the HT I/O subsystem or a combination isn't that important, the end results is the important factor here ,and the numbers do not stack up to anything but a hack and patch job IMO. Not to mention the throttling at 80 degrees and we don't really have much to be excited about.

The Intel 6 cores are a totally different beast, amble overhead available with the Tri Channel memory controller, no issue with the QPI overhead and temps that on a current Xeon W3680 I have on the bench at the moment are between 18-23 degrees at idle, and barely going above 40 at full throttle with an ambient room temp of about 15 degrees. The low latency scaling is pretty much a linear improvement going from 4 to 6 cores ( 8 to 12 threads ).

I wasn't expecting anything from these desktop variants from AMD as the Dual Socket Hexacore Opterons were a non event, the Magny-Cours that were mentioned earlier are an even bigger non event despite a huge amount of hype that was attempted a while back on the Nuendo forum, but when push came to shove they collapsed into a heap. That thread was interesting because the O.P is one the loudest opponents to my benchmarking methodology and refused to give it an inch, so he posted his own so called Real World benchmark where the Magny Cours were allegedly pummelling Dual Hexacore Xeons systems and he posted some comparable numbers from a 980X system to try and prove his point. When one of my clients with a single Quad W3520 Xeon system beat the 980X numbers by a factor of 4 X, and got within 50% of the Dual Magny-Cour results with 1 /8 the number of physical cores, the jig was up.

Do I hope AMD come back with a kicking chip to get some competition back, sure, but only to force Intel to drop the Hexacore prices , yeh I am biased, but I have good reason to be.. :-)

The Magny-Cour thread at Nuendo for those interested is Here

FWIW: The thread title has been changed and some heavy editing has taken place by the O.P after the initial claims fell flat. Most DAWbench commentary from that individual has been edited out or amended as well, in short , the Magny-Cours could not even get into double figures with the standard RXC bench at 064, not entirely sure why, but to be honest, not really interested in pursuing it.. :-)

Peace

Vin Curigliano
AAVIM Technology

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AAVIM Technology
DAWbench.com

Quote:

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The AMD 6 cores are simply 2 extra cores bolted onto the existing sub system architecture

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No... they are designed to work with the PCIe bus using DirectX 11 multicore handling, future developments in this area will prove very interesting

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www.dragonlogos.co.uk

Quote:

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Take it from experience, no matter what evidence you present, when it involves AMD v Intel you will be opening yourself up to to this manner of melodrama, as people will always find their own truth.

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Like Intel getting Nicked for a few Billion in Anti Trust by the EU - Settling out of court with AMD for 1.7 and facing another two big cases in the US - that sort of truth does lead to a bit of drama, not that you ever hear much from the shops that still sell Intel, Intel and Intel - In most other businesses this would cause a public backlash, but with the computer industry there is hardly a stir in the waters

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www.dragonlogos.co.uk

Quote DragonLogos:

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Quote:

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Take it from experience, no matter what evidence you present, when it involves AMD v Intel you will be opening yourself up to to this manner of melodrama, as people will always find their own truth.

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Like Intel getting Nicked for a few Billion in Anti Trust by the EU - Settling out of court with AMD for 1.7 and facing another two big cases in the US - that sort of truth does lead to a bit of drama, not that you ever hear much from the shops that still sell Intel, Intel and Intel - In most other businesses this would cause a public backlash, but with the computer industry there is hardly a stir in the waters

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Oh, I'm sorry, I'm supposed to pay more for an slower, hotter chip now because Intel have been in court? AMD are a big company and no angels themselves, don't paint them as the moral guardians of the computer hardware world.

The fact is, when it comes to audio benchmarks in particular, AMD do not get close to the performance of Intel. They are also not cheap, have old technology and run hot. A few AMD press releases aren't going to change those facts. If only they spent some of there marketing budget on R&D perhaps we'd have a real choice, but we don't. Intel is by far the better choice.

Quote DragonLogos:

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Quote:

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The AMD 6 cores are simply 2 extra cores bolted onto the existing sub system architecture

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No... they are designed to work with the PCIe bus using DirectX 11 multicore handling, future developments in this area will prove very interesting

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What ?

Explain how your proposed DX 11 Multicore handling.. ??, what ever that is supposed to mean, is going to benefit low latency audio performance and scalability , and specifically how it will favour AMD's architecture over Intels ?

Re your ongoing froth about industrial politics , if I had to consult a moral compass anytime I made decisions in regards to computer technology I would be using a Crusoe processor on Linux, but I understand that none of these guys are without blood on their hands, so this whole supporting the underdog rant is a bit of snore. When AMD had the performance lead they screwed their users to the wall , when Dell stepped up and moved away from being Intel exclusive and started offering AMD chips, AMD sucked the channel dry and promptly screwed their white box channel who had supported them previously , so save the melodrama. They are not the good guys by any stretch of the imagination.

V:

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AAVIM Technology
DAWbench.com

Quote DragonLogos:

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You know Peter we are going to have to watch you like a Hawk, firstly you would find that the AMD Quad would give pretty much the same bench... and then there is the mobo you use, one would think that because you are stuck on Intel, you are likewise stuck on Gigabyte... and have the same meal every night

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I use Gigabytes for the Intel builds because they use good components, have great support and have the required T.I. chipset. Before that I used mostly Abit for the same reasons.

I could use Asus or MSI as both perform fine on the current generation but they cost more if adding in another firewire card.

Are you suggesting I use a more expensive, less featured board simply becaue I'm seeming too Gigabytecentric?

DragonLogos Quote:

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The GA-870A-UD3 has a 870 chipset

DragonLogos Quote:

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AMD's Turbo CORE technology is now available in 'Thuban' Phenom-II AM3 desktop processors, beginning with the 2.8GHz X6-1055T and 3.2GHz X6-1090T CPUs. Turbo CORE senses when three of the six processor cores are not in use, and automatically boosts the clock speed up to 500MHz. Paired with the AMD 890FX chipset found on ASUS' Crosshair-IV Formula ROG motherboard, the AMD Phenom-II X6-1090T Black Edition CPU can reach 4.0GHz on all six cores with an additional 4.3GHz Turbo CORE

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The benchs I ran were at stock clocks and turbo was turned off on both the AMD and Intel to ensure the playing field was level.

I've also run the tests with both of the chips running at 4GB and they scale as you'd expect. I don't see much validity in either as the amount of cooling you have to add to an audio system to get the 4GB makes them unfit for purpose.

The 870 chipset has a lower rated TDP which makes it more suitable than the 890 chipset for an audio build (AMD's own offical figures). It's missing Crossfire so the reduction in pci buss capability is irrelevent which is the biggest difference. From AMD's own specifications those are the biggest differences between the 890 and the 870. Nothing you've posted so far has convinced me that I've missed anything more relevent.

Quote DragonLogos:

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DragonLogos Quote:

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Pete Kaine - The current 6 core AMD's not only have that bandwidth issue but the's a thermal throttle at around 80 degrees which hampered my testing whilst using a stock cooler (hell it hampered my testing whilst using an aftermarket one as well) so in a real world situation where the doesn't happen to be an air con the size of a large freezer hanging above the desk is anyone's guess

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http://www.guru3d.com/article/asus-crosshair-iv-formula-review/

DragonLogos Quote:

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The Crosshair IV Formula is the Mc Daddy of AMD 890FX motherboards, the alpha dog motherboards loaded with features like the aforementioned, but also USB 3.0, automated overclock switches ..and get this four PCIe x16 slots and even core unlock functionality by pressing a button.

The Crosshair IV Formula oozes with features and performance, the six-core Phenom II X6 processor review which you probably just read was overclocked towards 4.1 GHz on a cheapo CPU air-cooler .. based on this motherboard.

All in all we got a thing or two to tell ya .. show ya .. and explain to ya. Head on over to the next page, where we'll head deeply into the AMD 890 FX chipset and the ASUS Crosshair IV Formula motherboard that has the 890FX chipset embedded.

But first have a look at one of the most attractive looking motherboards of all time ...

---

I am not going to pull that image in... but everyone do yourselves a kindness, click on the link and have a look

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Not quite sure why posting up a gamers board is relevent. We do gaming rigs based around that board and chip combination and we do gaming rigs based around the Intel equlivent.

I do acturly use Asus board for gaming rigs as they overclock better and more stable than the Gigabytes if noise and heat isn't an issue.

For audio it is.

For instance to hold a stable 4GB on the Intel side an Asus board it takes around 1.375v to the CPU where the Gigabyte takes 1.325v. The difference is that Gigabyte tends to max out about there where the Intel will goto 4.2 on air or 4.6 on basic water.... so I use Asus where performance is required and Gigabyte where it is more important to keep heat down and the rig quiet.

The Crosshair formula board you listed we got samples for and did some machines based around it. Our Vision Black ships at 4GB and is a great gaming rig. Too hot and noisy for a audio box and the i7 930 rig for the same price beats it hands down in dawbench.

Quote DragonLogos:

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http://www.guru3d.com/article/asus-crosshair-iv-formula-review/2

DragonLogos Quote:

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New in the 890 FX chipset, is IOMMU support. Not something that the majority of you guys would be interested in but it allows for virtual addressing of memory by system devices. This enables devices to use their native drivers in a virtualized environment for enhanced performance. In a non-virtualized environment, IOMMU provides memory isolation and protection capabilities - device access to system memory is vetted by the IOMMU such that critical/unrelated memory information (e.g. kernel pages, protected content …) can be protected, leading overall to a more robust system. With an updated Hyperlink (revision 3) we now can connect to the SB850 chip with a well-appointed 2GB/sec bandwidth (full-duplex)

---

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About time. The Intel chipsets have been able to do this since 2007 when it was introduced as part of the Bearlake chipset (X38).

Oh and the fact it's not got this on the 870 chipset makes not a jot of difference in testing as nothing on the southbridge will have an impact on the audio subsystem in DAWbench testing.

Quote DragonLogos:

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http://www.guru3d.com/article/asus-crosshair-iv-formula-review/3

DragonLogos Quote:

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The Crosshair IV Formula deploys the latest chipset architecture from AMD, opening up the current performance CPUs on the market. Enabling processors to come into their own is exactly what a good motherboard does, and the new Crosshair achieves this in several ways—not least of which is ROG Connect, a built-in overclocking engine that maximizes benchmark scores by tuning and monitoring from a remote PC via USB, like a notebook. This way users can overclock while benchmarking, so all resources remain available to better performance. ROG Connect also serves as an in-depth monitoring tool—gearheads can easily obtain readings to see the effects mods such as overvolting have on their system.

ASUS and Republic of Gamers also announce Core Unlocker, an exclusive technology praised by worldwide media, to inject great value and performance into gaming setups. It’s well known that many CPUs come with multiple cores deactivated during fabrication, and Core Unlocker brings those back to life. Users simply have to press one button on the board and the AMD CPU placed in the socket goes through a physical scan in search of dormant cores. Dual core CPUs can become triple or quad in minutes, with obvious computing horsepower benefits

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ROG connect is simply what we do in Bios and the Bios on any board is the better way to tweak it, if you know what your doing.

Core unlocker is interesting but I wouldn't use it as standard. Chips get binned differenly for different reasons. We can't sell chips with unlocked cores as they wouldn't be warranted so it's a feature that doesn't apply to us on a commerical level. I'm not saying I wouldn't give it a try if it happened to be on a system I owned myself but its not a make or break feature of the chipset.

Quote DragonLogos:

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Yeah I understand them, you also have to do your tests on the right board, the weakest link concept apples

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I can retest using the 890 based board if your convinced it's going to blow us all away, but nothing you've posted so far would make a squat of difference in the testing process.

DragonLogos Quote:

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Do you perhaps understand that only the i7 980X unlocks, and that is why it does what it does, the other i7s do not and neither do the i5s

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I'm not seeing the relevence. You can overclock any combination. The Gigabyte boards you seem to dislike acturly have a +1 to the multiplyer on all the Intel range to your i7 930 runs at 2.93 out of the box and if you want to get into overclocking then you can run at 3.6 without increasing the voltages. So that means you can run at 3.6 without any heat increase to the system.... so you can run them silently.

The Amd's start throttle at 80/85 degrees and you have to start raising the voltages a lot sooner.

DragonLogos Quote:

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- But the AMD Dragons can - and not one of your i5s even come close to the unlocked Dragons... and yet you recommend the i5 - BTW as said before the i7s can use triple memory and have a good bandwidth rating because of that, it would mean putting in three two gig high end memory modules to get it... your i5 is only dual,

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Point being? I benched Amd vs Intel. Amd lost. Nothing you've stated above will make any difference to the benchmarks for AMD. I can run the tests again with a 890 based board but I'm not seeing what the point would be.

Quote DragonLogos:

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I haven't even got into the audio side of it yet, maybe waiting for someone to say, yes but that's OK for gamers

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Think I did a few times up there.

Quote TAFKAT:

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@ Peter,

Take it from experience, no matter what evidence you present, when it involves AMD v Intel you will be opening yourself up to to this manner of melodrama, as people will always find their own truth.

---

Yeah, not the first time I've experianced it, and I think I've acturly been on both sides of the tussle over the years. I enjoy a good debate sometimes through, even if it is pointless.

DragonLogos Quote:

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I wasn't expecting anything from these desktop variants from AMD as the Dual Socket Hexacore Opterons were a non event, the Magny-Cours that were mentioned earlier are an even bigger non event despite a huge amount of hype that was attempted a while back on the Nuendo forum, but when push came to shove they collapsed into a heap.

---

Having just read that thread it may just save me some time...

What I will say about the Magnys are that they are awesome virtulisation boxes. That's what AMD designed them to be and that's what they do very well. You can take all your cores and run multiple virtualisation servers and pretty much run your whole business from a single rack unit.

Translating this to audio clients. What audio clients use virtualisation?

None.

What benfit does it give an audio user.

None.

So you've got 2 chips with 16 cores running at 1.8Ghz or for the same price 6 cores on a 980X running at 3.2Ghz (or 4Ghz if you so desire) and althrough you have less cores the raw clock speed makes it the better solution for the price.

DragonLogos Quote:

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Do I hope AMD come back with a kicking chip to get some competition back, sure, but only to force Intel to drop the Hexacore prices

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Same here. I stated that in my thread over at GS when I started in on the thread. I really belived the 1090t's were going to be awesome chips and great value for money for audio. They didn't prove to be.

Quote DragonLogos:

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not that you ever hear much from the shops that still sell Intel, Intel and Intel - In most other businesses this would cause a public backlash, but with the computer industry there is hardly a stir in the waters

---

The Apple Store?



--------------------
ScanProAudio & 3XS Audio Systems
ScanProAudio Blog

Quote TAFKAT:

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When AMD had the performance lead they screwed their users to the wall , when Dell stepped up and moved away from being Intel exclusive and started offering AMD chips, AMD sucked the channel dry and promptly screwed their white box channel who had supported them previously , so save the melodrama. They are not the good guys by any stretch of the imagination.

---

Hahahah fact. We did launch machines and development for them (AMD) for years and we still got screwed with stock shortages and inflated prices when they took the lead. For all the bitching that goes on about Intel, Amd when given an Inch will take a mile.

As such (and I'll state this again) we don't take sides. We'll do R&D with either firm and we do special projects for both all the time. End of the day through it's a business for everyone and given the option all firms will get away with what they can get away with.

This isn't due to dirty tatics this is down to capitalism. If you have an issue with it then the's going to be far bigger issues in your life than Intel and Amd catfighting about things.

--------------------
ScanProAudio & 3XS Audio Systems
ScanProAudio Blog

My conclusions so far:

1 - Both firms make good products, and both have dedicated supporters.

2 - Intel's processors are better suited to 'power user' audio production, but either would probably be fine for my needs.

3 - Pete knows his stuff. Don't bother trying to catch him out.

Quote Pete Kaine:

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Having just read that thread it may just save me some time...

What I will say about the Magnys are that they are awesome virtulisation boxes. That's what AMD designed them to be and that's what they do very well. You can take all your cores and run multiple virtualisation servers and pretty much run your whole business from a single rack unit.

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Hey Pete,

I understand where the Magny -Cours can be of benefit, whether they are any better than a Dual Hexacore Xeon with Hyperthreading for virtualisation would be the bigger question, but that isn't of any interest to me to be honest. For audio workstation use there seems to be some serious arbitration issues in the areas that we are focused. It doesn't help that AMD send out overzealous shills with flawed data to try and muddy the waters until someone comes along and drops the veil so to speak.

The problem with all of this posturing from the AMD camp is that they seem to forget that the core execution on the chips is still the same, and unless they dramatically improve that key area, throwing added cores isn't going to amount to much, past .., hmmm, posturing.. :-)

I have a feeling that no matter what they have up their sleeve, Intel have them more than covered.., now to get the prices sorted.

Oh BTW: seeing "unlocked" chips keeps popping up here as a point of contention, replace the i5 750 with the new i7 875K in that argument and the point is mute. A little more than an 860, cheaper than an 870- go figure , unlocked multiplier , and would easily account for anything a 1090T could throw up... :-)

Peace

V:

Quote Pete Kaine:

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Quote DragonLogos:

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You know Peter we are going to have to watch you like a Hawk, firstly you would find that the AMD Quad would give pretty much the same bench... and then there is the mobo you use, one would think that because you are stuck on Intel, you are likewise stuck on Gigabyte... and have the same meal every night

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I use Gigabytes for the Intel builds because they use good components, have great support and have the required T.I. chipset. Before that I used mostly Abit for the same reasons.

I could use Asus or MSI as both perform fine on the current generation but they cost more if adding in another firewire card.

Are you suggesting I use a more expensive, less featured board simply becaue I'm seeming too Gigabytecentric?

DragonLogos Quote:

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The GA-870A-UD3 has a 870 chipset

DragonLogos Quote:

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AMD's Turbo CORE technology is now available in 'Thuban' Phenom-II AM3 desktop processors, beginning with the 2.8GHz X6-1055T and 3.2GHz X6-1090T CPUs. Turbo CORE senses when three of the six processor cores are not in use, and automatically boosts the clock speed up to 500MHz. Paired with the AMD 890FX chipset found on ASUS' Crosshair-IV Formula ROG motherboard, the AMD Phenom-II X6-1090T Black Edition CPU can reach 4.0GHz on all six cores with an additional 4.3GHz Turbo CORE

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The benchs I ran were at stock clocks and turbo was turned off on both the AMD and Intel to ensure the playing field was level.

I've also run the tests with both of the chips running at 4GB and they scale as you'd expect. I don't see much validity in either as the amount of cooling you have to add to an audio system to get the 4GB makes them unfit for purpose.

The 870 chipset has a lower rated TDP which makes it more suitable than the 890 chipset for an audio build (AMD's own offical figures). It's missing Crossfire so the reduction in pci buss capability is irrelevent which is the biggest difference. From AMD's own specifications those are the biggest differences between the 890 and the 870. Nothing you've posted so far has convinced me that I've missed anything more relevent.

Quote DragonLogos:

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DragonLogos Quote:

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Pete Kaine - The current 6 core AMD's not only have that bandwidth issue but the's a thermal throttle at around 80 degrees which hampered my testing whilst using a stock cooler (hell it hampered my testing whilst using an aftermarket one as well) so in a real world situation where the doesn't happen to be an air con the size of a large freezer hanging above the desk is anyone's guess

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http://www.guru3d.com/article/asus-crosshair-iv-formula-review/

DragonLogos Quote:

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The Crosshair IV Formula is the Mc Daddy of AMD 890FX motherboards, the alpha dog motherboards loaded with features like the aforementioned, but also USB 3.0, automated overclock switches ..and get this four PCIe x16 slots and even core unlock functionality by pressing a button.

The Crosshair IV Formula oozes with features and performance, the six-core Phenom II X6 processor review which you probably just read was overclocked towards 4.1 GHz on a cheapo CPU air-cooler .. based on this motherboard.

All in all we got a thing or two to tell ya .. show ya .. and explain to ya. Head on over to the next page, where we'll head deeply into the AMD 890 FX chipset and the ASUS Crosshair IV Formula motherboard that has the 890FX chipset embedded.

But first have a look at one of the most attractive looking motherboards of all time ...

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I am not going to pull that image in... but everyone do yourselves a kindness, click on the link and have a look

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Not quite sure why posting up a gamers board is relevent. We do gaming rigs based around that board and chip combination and we do gaming rigs based around the Intel equlivent.

I do acturly use Asus board for gaming rigs as they overclock better and more stable than the Gigabytes if noise and heat isn't an issue.

For audio it is.

For instance to hold a stable 4GB on the Intel side an Asus board it takes around 1.375v to the CPU where the Gigabyte takes 1.325v. The difference is that Gigabyte tends to max out about there where the Intel will goto 4.2 on air or 4.6 on basic water.... so I use Asus where performance is required and Gigabyte where it is more important to keep heat down and the rig quiet.

The Crosshair formula board you listed we got samples for and did some machines based around it. Our Vision Black ships at 4GB and is a great gaming rig. Too hot and noisy for a audio box and the i7 930 rig for the same price beats it hands down in dawbench.

Quote DragonLogos:

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http://www.guru3d.com/article/asus-crosshair-iv-formula-review/2

DragonLogos Quote:

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New in the 890 FX chipset, is IOMMU support. Not something that the majority of you guys would be interested in but it allows for virtual addressing of memory by system devices. This enables devices to use their native drivers in a virtualized environment for enhanced performance. In a non-virtualized environment, IOMMU provides memory isolation and protection capabilities - device access to system memory is vetted by the IOMMU such that critical/unrelated memory information (e.g. kernel pages, protected content …) can be protected, leading overall to a more robust system. With an updated Hyperlink (revision 3) we now can connect to the SB850 chip with a well-appointed 2GB/sec bandwidth (full-duplex)

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About time. The Intel chipsets have been able to do this since 2007 when it was introduced as part of the Bearlake chipset (X38).

Oh and the fact it's not got this on the 870 chipset makes not a jot of difference in testing as nothing on the southbridge will have an impact on the audio subsystem in DAWbench testing.

Quote DragonLogos:

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http://www.guru3d.com/article/asus-crosshair-iv-formula-review/3

DragonLogos Quote:

---

The Crosshair IV Formula deploys the latest chipset architecture from AMD, opening up the current performance CPUs on the market. Enabling processors to come into their own is exactly what a good motherboard does, and the new Crosshair achieves this in several ways—not least of which is ROG Connect, a built-in overclocking engine that maximizes benchmark scores by tuning and monitoring from a remote PC via USB, like a notebook. This way users can overclock while benchmarking, so all resources remain available to better performance. ROG Connect also serves as an in-depth monitoring tool—gearheads can easily obtain readings to see the effects mods such as overvolting have on their system.

ASUS and Republic of Gamers also announce Core Unlocker, an exclusive technology praised by worldwide media, to inject great value and performance into gaming setups. It’s well known that many CPUs come with multiple cores deactivated during fabrication, and Core Unlocker brings those back to life. Users simply have to press one button on the board and the AMD CPU placed in the socket goes through a physical scan in search of dormant cores. Dual core CPUs can become triple or quad in minutes, with obvious computing horsepower benefits

---

---

ROG connect is simply what we do in Bios and the Bios on any board is the better way to tweak it, if you know what your doing.

Core unlocker is interesting but I wouldn't use it as standard. Chips get binned differenly for different reasons. We can't sell chips with unlocked cores as they wouldn't be warranted so it's a feature that doesn't apply to us on a commerical level. I'm not saying I wouldn't give it a try if it happened to be on a system I owned myself but its not a make or break feature of the chipset.

Quote DragonLogos:

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Yeah I understand them, you also have to do your tests on the right board, the weakest link concept apples

---

I can retest using the 890 based board if your convinced it's going to blow us all away, but nothing you've posted so far would make a squat of difference in the testing process.

DragonLogos Quote:

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Do you perhaps understand that only the i7 980X unlocks, and that is why it does what it does, the other i7s do not and neither do the i5s

---

I'm not seeing the relevence. You can overclock any combination. The Gigabyte boards you seem to dislike acturly have a +1 to the multiplyer on all the Intel range to your i7 930 runs at 2.93 out of the box and if you want to get into overclocking then you can run at 3.6 without increasing the voltages. So that means you can run at 3.6 without any heat increase to the system.... so you can run them silently.

The Amd's start throttle at 80/85 degrees and you have to start raising the voltages a lot sooner.

DragonLogos Quote:

---

- But the AMD Dragons can - and not one of your i5s even come close to the unlocked Dragons... and yet you recommend the i5 - BTW as said before the i7s can use triple memory and have a good bandwidth rating because of that, it would mean putting in three two gig high end memory modules to get it... your i5 is only dual,

---

Point being? I benched Amd vs Intel. Amd lost. Nothing you've stated above will make any difference to the benchmarks for AMD. I can run the tests again with a 890 based board but I'm not seeing what the point would be.

Quote DragonLogos:

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I haven't even got into the audio side of it yet, maybe waiting for someone to say, yes but that's OK for gamers

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Think I did a few times up there.

Quote TAFKAT:

---

@ Peter,

Take it from experience, no matter what evidence you present, when it involves AMD v Intel you will be opening yourself up to to this manner of melodrama, as people will always find their own truth.

---

Yeah, not the first time I've experianced it, and I think I've acturly been on both sides of the tussle over the years. I enjoy a good debate sometimes through, even if it is pointless.

DragonLogos Quote:

---

I wasn't expecting anything from these desktop variants from AMD as the Dual Socket Hexacore Opterons were a non event, the Magny-Cours that were mentioned earlier are an even bigger non event despite a huge amount of hype that was attempted a while back on the Nuendo forum, but when push came to shove they collapsed into a heap.

---

Having just read that thread it may just save me some time...

What I will say about the Magnys are that they are awesome virtulisation boxes. That's what AMD designed them to be and that's what they do very well. You can take all your cores and run multiple virtualisation servers and pretty much run your whole business from a single rack unit.

Translating this to audio clients. What audio clients use virtualisation?

None.

What benfit does it give an audio user.

None.

So you've got 2 chips with 16 cores running at 1.8Ghz or for the same price 6 cores on a 980X running at 3.2Ghz (or 4Ghz if you so desire) and althrough you have less cores the raw clock speed makes it the better solution for the price.

DragonLogos Quote:

---

Do I hope AMD come back with a kicking chip to get some competition back, sure, but only to force Intel to drop the Hexacore prices

---

Same here. I stated that in my thread over at GS when I started in on the thread. I really belived the 1090t's were going to be awesome chips and great value for money for audio. They didn't prove to be.

Quote DragonLogos:

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not that you ever hear much from the shops that still sell Intel, Intel and Intel - In most other businesses this would cause a public backlash, but with the computer industry there is hardly a stir in the waters

---

The Apple Store?

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You know Pete it would be really nice if when you quote me as saying something, it is someting I said (and not the Calamari Kid) - bit like putting words in my mouth - as said, have to watch you like a Hawk - I have had a full day running around trying to get a concert ready, but will be glad to put things right, The MSI 890 might be a better option BTW

--------------------
www.dragonlogos.co.uk

Quote TAFKAT:

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Quote DragonLogos:

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Quote:

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The AMD 6 cores are simply 2 extra cores bolted onto the existing sub system architecture

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No... they are designed to work with the PCIe bus using DirectX 11 multicore handling, future developments in this area will prove very interesting

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What ?

Explain how your proposed DX 11 Multicore handling.. ??, what ever that is supposed to mean, is going to benefit low latency audio performance and scalability , and specifically how it will favour AMD's architecture over Intels ?

V:

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With a PCIe Sound Card

--------------------
www.dragonlogos.co.uk

Quote Pete Kaine:

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Quote TAFKAT:

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When AMD had the performance lead they screwed their users to the wall , when Dell stepped up and moved away from being Intel exclusive and started offering AMD chips, AMD sucked the channel dry and promptly screwed their white box channel who had supported them previously , so save the melodrama. They are not the good guys by any stretch of the imagination.

---

Hahahah fact. We did launch machines and development for them (AMD) for years and we still got screwed with stock shortages and inflated prices when they took the lead. For all the bitching that goes on about Intel, Amd when given an Inch will take a mile.

As such (and I'll state this again) we don't take sides. We'll do R&D with either firm and we do special projects for both all the time. End of the day through it's a business for everyone and given the option all firms will get away with what they can get away with.

This isn't due to dirty tatics this is down to capitalism. If you have an issue with it then the's going to be far bigger issues in your life than Intel and Amd catfighting about things.

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If you have the time:

Full Article

http://www.dragonlogos.co.uk/soapbox/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=31

Quote:

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Part 2 - Heads you win, tails I lose

by Paul Wiggins on Wed Nov 18, 2009 11:42 pm

A vital component in this whole issue is how businesses operate. The issue of a win /lose strategy highlights the fundamental error in laissez-faire (let it be) capitalism, which is that a win /lose strategy is not sustainable.

The wisdom of the ages tells us of such folly, with concepts such as Karma, do unto others etc. It has even been proved mathematical by economic Nobel Laureate John Forbes Nash Jr. Ph.D (Princeton) – It has been proved time after time that a win /lose strategy does not work and yet people still persist with it, perhaps it has some deep rooted sentimental value of the childhood quick fix, but it is the time to put away these things - The French revolution. Enron and the collapse of the US Auto industry and Banking. Boom and bust is fine, it is in fact a bit like nature, but when it gets out of hand there are always going to be problems


A while back someone commented that when a company took advantage of a its monopoly it was only doing what any other business would do serves to highlight the perception of some businesses and to perhaps even at some point to sanction such behaviour, the idea of a free market without any controls is like a car without brakes, competition commissions and regulatory bodies are there to get people to act in a responsible manner, to put it bluntly.... grow up


Its is very much like trying to win at Tic-Tac–Toe (noughts and crosses) – and reminds me of the film War Games, except that it is we the people that need to know that there is no way of winning. The only way that you are going to win is when someone is new to the game, perhaps this is the great motivation for keeping people in the dark, like guessing which shell the pea is under… if the pea is in the palm of the hand you will never find it, once you know the nature of the trick the game is up, same goes when you work your way through all the rules… a bit like fighting a ink squirting Octopus


While some have become addicted to profits and easy money which are by their very nature self defeating and predatory, it might come as a surprise that the same capital could be achieved in a win /win strategy – It is important that business realise this and get on with the business of profits through innovation and hard work.


When resources run down there comes a point where greed becomes a burden society can no longer afford

Links and quotes:

John Forbes Nash Jr. Ph.D (Princeton) Nobel Laureate in Economics - game theory, differential geometry - equilibrium theory 28 page dissertation on non-cooperative games. The thesis, which was written under the supervision of Albert W. Tucker, contained the definition and properties of what would later be called the "Nash Equilibrium".


His most famous work in pure mathematics is the Nash embedding theorem, which shows that any abstract Riemannian manifold can be isometrically realized as a submanifold of Euclidean space. He made contributions to the theory of nonlinear parabolic partial differential equations, and to singularity theory


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Forbes_Nash,_Jr.

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Guess these days its Do one to others before they do one to you

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www.dragonlogos.co.uk

Quote johnny h:

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Quote DragonLogos:

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Quote:

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Take it from experience, no matter what evidence you present, when it involves AMD v Intel you will be opening yourself up to to this manner of melodrama, as people will always find their own truth.

---

Like Intel getting Nicked for a few Billion in Anti Trust by the EU - Settling out of court with AMD for 1.7 and facing another two big cases in the US - that sort of truth does lead to a bit of drama, not that you ever hear much from the shops that still sell Intel, Intel and Intel - In most other businesses this would cause a public backlash, but with the computer industry there is hardly a stir in the waters

---

Oh, I'm sorry, I'm supposed to pay more for an slower, hotter chip now because Intel have been in court? AMD are a big company and no angels themselves, don't paint them as the moral guardians of the computer hardware world.

The fact is, when it comes to audio benchmarks in particular, AMD do not get close to the performance of Intel. They are also not cheap, have old technology and run hot. A few AMD press releases aren't going to change those facts. If only they spent some of there marketing budget on R&D perhaps we'd have a real choice, but we don't. Intel is by far the better choice.

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Have you got any technical qualifications, or do you just play around with things... perhaps you are a iHaft Kabac - wrote a song about them, would you like to here it?

--------------------
www.dragonlogos.co.uk

Quote DragonLogos:

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Quote TAFKAT:

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Quote DragonLogos:

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Quote:

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The AMD 6 cores are simply 2 extra cores bolted onto the existing sub system architecture

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No... they are designed to work with the PCIe bus using DirectX 11 multicore handling, future developments in this area will prove very interesting

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What ?

Explain how your proposed DX 11 Multicore handling.. ??, what ever that is supposed to mean, is going to benefit low latency audio performance and scalability , and specifically how it will favour AMD's architecture over Intels ?

V:

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With a PCIe Sound Card

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?

Did you read the question I posted, how is your response in any way in respect to what I asked ?

Quote johnny h:

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Intel is by far the better choice.

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always with the Intel - love and kisses to Intel 24/7. johnny h really loves these guys.

I have an AMD system. it works well! has done for four years now with zero problems - cept it runs hot ( fan noise) i have it located in a 'server room' (the kitchen).
The dog pissed on it again the other day - still works!

--------------------
.. is this thing on?

Quote TAFKAT:

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Quote DragonLogos:

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Quote TAFKAT:

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Quote DragonLogos:

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Quote:

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The AMD 6 cores are simply 2 extra cores bolted onto the existing sub system architecture

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No... they are designed to work with the PCIe bus using DirectX 11 multicore handling, future developments in this area will prove very interesting

---

What ?

Explain how your proposed DX 11 Multicore handling.. ??, what ever that is supposed to mean, is going to benefit low latency audio performance and scalability , and specifically how it will favour AMD's architecture over Intels ?

V:

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With a PCIe Sound Card

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?

Did you read the question I posted, how is your response in any way in respect to what I asked ?

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AMD with there work with ATI Developed a system of letting two core of a muti core CPU work directly with the PCIe bus, now normally you would think... ahh yes this is for display cards and therefore a gamer issue, as you are aware mothers now have few PCI and up to Five PCIe - Intel's delay in Larrabee should show you the state of play, AMD on the other hand are good to go

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www.dragonlogos.co.uk

Even Nostradamus Dissed Intel

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www.dragonlogos.co.uk

Quote DragonLogos:

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AMD with there work with ATI Developed a system of letting two core of a muti core CPU work directly with the PCIe bus..

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Right, so lets see the detail and explain how its going to be a direct benefit for audio over the current DMI PCIe /QPI / HT interconnect that we currently have !

So we loose availability of multiple cores to the O.S MP task scheduling to buy what exactly ?

Quote DragonLogos:

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Quote johnny h:

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Quote DragonLogos:

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Quote:

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Take it from experience, no matter what evidence you present, when it involves AMD v Intel you will be opening yourself up to to this manner of melodrama, as people will always find their own truth.

---

Like Intel getting Nicked for a few Billion in Anti Trust by the EU - Settling out of court with AMD for 1.7 and facing another two big cases in the US - that sort of truth does lead to a bit of drama, not that you ever hear much from the shops that still sell Intel, Intel and Intel - In most other businesses this would cause a public backlash, but with the computer industry there is hardly a stir in the waters

---

Oh, I'm sorry, I'm supposed to pay more for an slower, hotter chip now because Intel have been in court? AMD are a big company and no angels themselves, don't paint them as the moral guardians of the computer hardware world.

The fact is, when it comes to audio benchmarks in particular, AMD do not get close to the performance of Intel. They are also not cheap, have old technology and run hot. A few AMD press releases aren't going to change those facts. If only they spent some of there marketing budget on R&D perhaps we'd have a real choice, but we don't. Intel is by far the better choice.

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Have you got any technical qualifications, or do you just play around with things...

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I don't fabricate computer chips but I can read benchmarks and price lists, and it is extremely easy to conclude that right now, in this moment in time, a reasonably priced intel i7 will easily outperform a similarly priced AMD system. No amount of smoke and mirrors about unused graphics functions and the endless regurgitating of AMD press releases will change that extremely important fact.

Quote:

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perhaps you are a iHaft Kabac - wrote a song about them, would you like to here it?

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Sure, send me a link.

Quote Stan:

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Quote johnny h:

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Intel is by far the better choice.

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always with the Intel - love and kisses to Intel 24/7. johnny h really loves these guys.

I have an AMD system. it works well! has done for four years now with zero problems - cept it runs hot ( fan noise) i have it located in a 'server room' (the kitchen).
The dog pissed on it again the other day - still works!

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Dogs have an instinct about these things. No dog has never pissed on my Intel system, despite having ample opportunity to do so. I'm not going to draw any conclusions about this, but as people on here say all the time, its "food for thought".

Quote DragonLogos:

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You know Pete it would be really nice if when you quote me as saying something, it is someting I said (and not the Calamari Kid) - bit like putting words in my mouth - as said, have to watch you like a Hawk - I have had a full day running around trying to get a concert ready, but will be glad to put things right,

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*!&*

Sorry. Copy and paste of quotation marks failure.

DragonLogos Quote:

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The MSI 890 might be a better option BTW

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Ok, I'll add that to todo list.

Quote DragonLogos:

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Quote TAFKAT:

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Quote DragonLogos:

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No... they are designed to work with the PCIe bus using DirectX 11 multicore handling, future developments in this area will prove very interesting

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What ?

Explain how your proposed DX 11 Multicore handling.. ??, what ever that is supposed to mean, is going to benefit low latency audio performance and scalability , and specifically how it will favour AMD's architecture over Intels ?

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With a PCIe Sound Card

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Kinda sounds good in theory assuming no one screws the pooch driver wise and more PCIe procards start doing the rounds. We'll have to wait and see on how this affects Dpc results and processor handling of other items at the same time.

Quote TAFKAT:

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Quote DragonLogos:

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AMD with there work with ATI Developed a system of letting two core of a muti core CPU work directly with the PCIe bus..

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Right, so lets see the detail and explain how its going to be a direct benefit for audio over the current DMI PCIe /QPI / HT interconnect that we currently have !

So we loose availability of multiple cores to the O.S MP task scheduling to buy what exactly ?

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Also that makes just as much sense. Only time will tell.

Quote DragonLogos:

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*snip*
Guess these days its Do one to others before they do one to you

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Hasn't it always been the case. Survial of the fittest.

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ScanProAudio & 3XS Audio Systems
ScanProAudio Blog

I'm writing this on an HP Pavilion 9420us laptop with AMD Turion 64x2 CPUs running Vista Home Premium on 4GB RAM and a couple of 120GB HD's that are partitioned C: Windows OS + HP Recovery and D: Data (incl. Cubase projects of course). It cost me $1100 in the US about two years ago. I've been using Cubase 4/5 and a Tascam US-122 to record and replay but have had remarkable results using the on-board Conexant soundcard using ASIO4ALL as the driver. This is an entertainment model with a v. bright 17" screen.
Apart from the overheating problems this model has and typically only 2-hr battery life when editing and playing back, this CPU and OS combo has been amazingly successful.

Quote fizzazz:

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I'm writing this on an HP Pavilion 9420us laptop with AMD Turion 64x2 CPUs running Vista Home Premium on 4GB RAM and a couple of 120GB HD's that are partitioned C: Windows OS + HP Recovery and D: Data (incl. Cubase projects of course). It cost me $1100 in the US about two years ago. I've been using Cubase 4/5 and a Tascam US-122 to record and replay but have had remarkable results using the on-board Conexant soundcard using ASIO4ALL as the driver. This is an entertainment model with a v. bright 17" screen.
Apart from the overheating problems this model has and typically only 2-hr battery life when editing and playing back, this CPU and OS combo has been amazingly successful.

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Hmm sounds great, apart from the overheating problems and 2hr battery life

Quote DragonLogos:

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The MSI 890 might be a better option BTW

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We're not holding stock of the MSI this week it seems so I benched the Asus Crosshair IV Formula that you provided the links to further up thread.

Dawbench results.

890 Platform - Crosshair formula / 1090T Black edition / Corsair 1333Mhz 9-9-9-24

Latency : Instances

32 : 96
64 : 102
128 : 132
256 : 140

870 Platform - Gigabyte GA-870A-UD3 / 1090T Black Edition / Corsair 1333Mhz 9-9-9-24


Latency : Instances

32 : 96
64 : 110
128 : 119
256 : 142

1156 Platform - Gigabyte P55A UD3 / i5 750 / Corsair 1333Mhz 9-9-9-24

Latency : Instances

32 : 104
64 : 114
128 : 120
256 : 124

So no sizable difference between 870 and 890 for audio use.
Both still give less performance at the price point vs Intel.

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ScanProAudio & 3XS Audio Systems
ScanProAudio Blog

Quote Pete Kaine:

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Quote DragonLogos:

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The MSI 890 might be a better option BTW

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*snip*
So no sizable difference between 870 and 890 for audio use.
Both still give less performance at the price point vs Intel.

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Out of interest Peter, what is the ideal price/performance mb+cpu combination you recommend for audio use? How much faster would it be than say, a Q6600?

I'm tempted to wait until 6 or 8 core intels became affordable - how long do you think this is likely to be?

Quote johnny h:

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Out of interest Peter, what is the ideal price/performance mb+cpu combination you recommend for audio use? How much faster would it be than say, a Q6600?

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Easiest thing I can do here is point at Scott ADK's results over the years @ http://www.adkproaudio.com/benchmarks.cfm

The QX6700 is probably the closest to the Q6600 and even then that's a slightly better chip. If you keep that as the baseline through you can see the difference between it and the 920 result. If you pick a 930 you can add a couple of more instances and if you select a 860 based rig you can deduct maybe 10 instances.

Either way the result is still be more than twice what you'd receive for a Q6600 and then you look at the 980X and your seeing over 5X the power of a older 6600.

Currently I'd say i5 860 or i7 930 are your sweet spots for performance and price. I wouldn't buy a more expensive chip from either range personally althrough the 980X is bang for buck still a great chip I personally couldn't justify having that much power, but if you need it (and maybe 2% of the industry would have any use for it) it's a great deal, expecially when you compare it next to the Xeons.

Quote:

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I'm tempted to wait until 6 or 8 core intels became affordable - how long do you think this is likely to be?

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If your not maxing out your current rig then that may well be the better option. The's a more affordable Hexcore due this year for the current socket but it could well be one of the last chips released before Sandy Bridge is launched, and if I was going to spend a large amount of money now and having a Hexcore was a priority I'd wait until next spring and get one based around the new platform when its released.

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ScanProAudio & 3XS Audio Systems
ScanProAudio Blog