Hi guys

Anyone got any pointers on making a great sub bass? It seems to be one of those sounds that's hard to get wrong but difficult to get bang on the money.

Sine? Square? Tri? How steep a filter and at what hhz?... etc etc...

I've made a few, all with varying degrees of success but would interested to hear if anybody got some handy hints.

Cheers

This is a "sister" post to one in the Music Tech area where Ive asked for tips on mixing a sub bass. If anyone could wants to impart some nuggets of wisdom that would be great!

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www.loadedaudio.com - Audio Mastering and home of the Mix Fix
www.audioslap.com - Audio News, Reviews and Interviews

All you need for a sub is a sine wave without any filter. Adding other waves and filtering down might create a thicker sound, but I've found that it is not necessary unless you want to add some tone, but then it is no longer truly a sub. Square wave is good for adding a bit of thickness, but there are no specifics on Hz as none of the synths I use have a reference. Adjusting the decay on the Env/Filter mod and the amount the mod is affecting the filter will add a bit of punch to the bass, but again it's no longer a sub once you start to do this.

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http://soundcloud.com/richie-royale
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Thanks Richie.

Going by your description it appear I am possibly getting "sub bass" mixed up with "really deep bass". I understand the meaning of the word "sub" but I would appear to be using the phrase in a less than pure way and confusing myself!

Still, thanks for the tips, I seem to be on the right tracks anyway but will put your advice to good use.

Cheers

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www.loadedaudio.com - Audio Mastering and home of the Mix Fix
www.audioslap.com - Audio News, Reviews and Interviews

Bear in mind that the key your tune is in has a big influence as well.

You might find, as I often have, that subs or really deep and nasty basses are easier to get if the key the tune is in is right. Try pitching your tune and bass up and down, you might be surprised.

D.

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www.thirdfloormusic.com

If using deep sine sub basses make sure your kick doesn't take up too much room in the low end or interfere with the sub or it sounds mingin lol...use a hi-pass on it or mix it with a break beat that again is EQ'd (Amen break? )

Thanks guys.

Daclinc I think I understand what you're saying about getting the key right. Even in a great monitoring environment a sub or deep bass can seem out of tune even when played in the right key. Im used to mixing non-key specific 808 booms but melodic or basslines in a specific key is quite different.

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www.loadedaudio.com - Audio Mastering and home of the Mix Fix
www.audioslap.com - Audio News, Reviews and Interviews

I tend to use squares for this, as I find most speakers/sound systems react quite differently to low frequencies (different port and/or cabinet resonances, crossover freqs etc), so a sine that sounds beefy on your own monitors can be either inaudible or overpowering on someone else's. The extra harmonics in a square can help 'fill in' where other systems don't quite have the grunt.

Also, dropouts can work wonders, because they almost invariably hit the 'oomph' part of a speaker sooner or later (albeit at slightly different times). I like to think of it as 'tickling' the port, so that as the pitch modulates downward, it excites the port enough to get a nice chest-thumping sound, if only briefly. That way you're likely to end up with something that works in a similar way on other speakers.

Oh yes, and I also sometimes modulate the resonance with an ADSR envelope with the attack set very slow, so that as the pitch drops to the point where the speakers response does, the resonance goes up and you get a hint more welly right at the end.

The above may or may not help. Hope it does! (And be careful of your speakers - try feeling the cone to see how far you're pushing it).

Cheers!

Chris

Let me reiterate Chris’ very wise cone warning - some of the libraries I get for possible Sample Shop review in SOS have on occasion pushed my cones to dangerous limits, which is a sure sine (geddit?) that the designer doesn’t have a decent monitoring system and acoustically treated room to hear what the sound is doing.

Mostly, using a lowcut filter at perhaps 30Hz to lop off the cone wobbly bits is a wise move


Martin

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YewTreeMagic

A benchmark on low frequencies:

The bottom B on a 5-string bass is about 30Hz. Hellloooo neighbours ! And good-byeeee crockery !

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Instant gratification is actually pretty good. It's fast as well.

Shakin' all over


Martin

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YewTreeMagic

I remember reading an interview where some dance music chaps used to use fairly simple sounds, but with an insane amount of resonance on the filter to really cut out most of the audible range which gave them terrific sub bass (apparently). They then layered it with piano samples and let people wondering why it was that whenever the 'piano' cut it they all felt their bowels leaping about ...



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Veni, Vidi, Aesculi
(I came, I saw, I conkered)

Quote francobidanco:

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Hi guys

Anyone got any pointers on making a great sub bass? It seems to be one of those sounds that's hard to get wrong but difficult to get bang on the money.

Sine? Square? Tri? How steep a filter and at what hhz?... etc etc...

I've made a few, all with varying degrees of success but would interested to hear if anybody got some handy hints.

Cheers

This is a "sister" post to one in the Music Tech area where Ive asked for tips on mixing a sub bass. If anyone could wants to impart some nuggets of wisdom that would be great!

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1._ Room acoustics
2._ Aural training
3._ Accurate monitors
4._ Room acoustics (I know that I already mentioned.)
5._ Avoid headphones
6._ Sub bass processing requires less of high and mid frequency, instead of more of bass (Never forget this.)
7._ Keep your favorite filters handy (I can name a few but believe me that wont make a difference.)
8._ Room acoustics (Not trying to annoy. I mean it.)
9._ Learn to avoid the luring booby traps of loudness
10._Room acoustics (Okay, I'm anyways done.)

Further details have already been pointed out by other posters.

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SoundCloud

Further to the point about ripping cones!

Keep moving! By that I mean Vlow sines (IF the speaker is that pure, not easy!) will be non existant in parts of the room even tho' the speaker is going 19 to the dozen so you might be tempted to crank things and pop!

The high and low pressures will of course change about with pitch.

Dave.

Yes, this is yet another advantage of acoustic treatment - the more bass trapping you fit, the flatter your low-end frequency response and the less likely that your cones will pop out yet you still can’t hear the bass


Martin

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YewTreeMagic

Quote Martin Walker:

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Yes, this is yet another advantage of acoustic treatment - the more bass trapping you fit, the flatter your low-end frequency response and the less likely that your cones will pop out yet you still can’t hear the bass


Martin

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11._Room acoustics (How much more do I need to reiterate the fact)

Many folks would still seek the booms & bangs without even noticing that they existed loud and clear even when their confused faculty of wonderment fails to locate them. Reminds me of the drug addicts who would spend endless insomniac nights in the search of the meaning of their life. Ironic!

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SoundCloud

Yes Martin, A smoother response is desireable but not really what I meant.
With respect, a standing wave is a standing wave, the high pressure point is defined by the room dimension and if you are not "there" you won't hear it!
And you DO need a lot of pressure, F Munson and all that!

Dave.

Quote AuralSerenity:

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Quote Martin Walker:

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Yes, this is yet another advantage of acoustic treatment - the more bass trapping you fit, the flatter your low-end frequency response and the less likely that your cones will pop out yet you still can’t hear the bass


Martin

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11._Room acoustics (How much more do I need to reiterate the fact)

Many folks would still seek the booms & bangs without even noticing that they existed loud and clear even when their confused faculty of wonderment fails to locate them. Reminds me of the drug addicts who would spend endless insomniac nights in the search of the meaning of their life. Ironic!

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Indeed. My room is far from perfect, so I've found that, according to key, the best places to evaluate deep subs are ...

- sweet spot

- two feet back

- six feet back

- eight feet back

- in the doorway to the studio, studio door open, with another door to a small cubicle room nearby open.

- ditto, but with either or both doors closed.

- studio door open, six feet away down passage

- ditto, studio door closed.

- studio door open, twenty five feet away in sitting room, sitting room door open

- ditto, either or both doors closed.

At least I get some exercise, walking back and forth making subtle adjustments of level, filters, etc, until I get the best compromise that works for all the above ...

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http://anotherfineday.bandcamp.com/ http://anotherfineday.co.uk http://apollomusic.co.uk

Quote tomafd:

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Quote AuralSerenity:

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Quote Martin Walker:

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Yes, this is yet another advantage of acoustic treatment - the more bass trapping you fit, the flatter your low-end frequency response and the less likely that your cones will pop out yet you still can’t hear the bass


Martin

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11._Room acoustics (How much more do I need to reiterate the fact)

Many folks would still seek the booms & bangs without even noticing that they existed loud and clear even when their confused faculty of wonderment fails to locate them. Reminds me of the drug addicts who would spend endless insomniac nights in the search of the meaning of their life. Ironic!

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Indeed. My room is far from perfect, so I've found that, according to key, the best places to evaluate deep subs are ...

- sweet spot

- two feet back

- six feet back

- eight feet back

- in the doorway to the studio, studio door open, with another door to a small cubicle room nearby open.

- ditto, but with either or both doors closed.

- studio door open, six feet away down passage

- ditto, studio door closed.

- studio door open, twenty five feet away in sitting room, sitting room door open

- ditto, either or both doors closed.

At least I get some exercise, walking back and forth making subtle adjustments of level, filters, etc, until I get the best compromise that works for all the above ...

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I realize that if I continue blaming the room acoustics, then this thread might get moved to the other forum - "Studio Design|Acoustics", and in a way that fits the entire idea of this thread.
I think room treatment is almost the ultimate answer to the query of finding that missing deep deep bass.

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SoundCloud

Quote AuralSerenity:

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I think room treatment is almost the ultimate answer to the query of finding that missing deep deep bass.

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Martin

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YewTreeMagic

has anyone mentioned bass trapping and other general room treatment yet??

TWO subs are more than just a luxury!

Dave.

One of my favourite lines in Bob Katz's 'Mastering Audio' goes something like:

"In the next chapter, I'll explain why having less than two subwoofers is ALWAYS a compromise."

Which kind of makes sense... if you're a mastering engineer and you've had your room purpose-built for you!

@ Franco

If you want seriously fat bass. (Sorry im 37 and refuse to use daft words like 'phat' urgg)

1 - Trim all of the bass sound away you dont need. Yes I know this seems counter productive but think of this. Bass is extremely energy consuming. Any speaker no matter how good has only a given amount of energy if can deliver. So use this energy wisely on only what you want.
2 - Make all your other parts bass light. IE whack a filter at around 100 on all other channels except the kick. Its a contrast thing. If the listener gets used to less bass when you let rip with your crafted sub (see point 1) it will sound tremendous.
3 - As many have mentioned above rom acoustics and sub's. Dont use a sub unless your room is treated or you are likely to end up with a super bassy mix down session that sounds seriously non bassy any where else.
4 - Compression and more compression. Consider parallel etc
5 - Try and keep the notes short. (See point one re energy)
6 - Again a contrast thing. Make sure your high end is sorted too. Sub bass on a muffled recording will always sound less bassy than on a track with a clear hi hat line etc.


Hope this helps.

Quote kolakube:

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4 - Compression and more compression. Consider parallel etc

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Why?

Does it really help? 'cause if it does then my aural senses must be in deep *@$#. My education suggests that less of it is better (intensity of the compression applied), and more of it is better (frequency of its usage). Hence, kolakube, I use it a lot (almost in all samples), but apply its effects intensity while still considering how to save the endangered dynamics.

Have I been missing something? -- (please don't answer, that's a rhetorical one)

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SoundCloud

12._Add kick instead of metronome while making the bassline. Sometime it helps finding out how well it may fit with real kick. Kick is the only thing that repels bass. Before the entire track is doomed it is preferable to do some match making on prior.

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SoundCloud