Hi, I hope this forum suits best, (the 'mastering' forum seemed like the wrong place as I am discussing the mixdown stage, and 'sound design' forum also seemed wrong as the sound is already designed), I couldn't find a 'mixing/mixdown' forum.

Basically I have a track and I can't get the sub to sit quite right, if it is too low, it is lost and too high it is way too 'boomy', finding the balance that works well on several systems seems near impossible.

I'm mixing on Tannoy System 800 monitors, and also using Soundcraft Spirit Absolute 2's as backups in a different room. I also have a pair of Beyerdynamic DT150's and Sennheiser HD25 headphones, yet I can't seem to get the balance quite right so it sits well on all systems.

Are there any secrets to mixing sub bass? I need to get this track ready for vinyl release ASAP.

Any help would be most gratefully received.

Is your room treated? If not this may be a good reason why you are struggling.

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http://soundcloud.com/richie-royale
http://www.mixcrate.com/richieroyale

Have you tried any eq or compression to even out the dynamics and keep the gains in check?

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Samplecraze
Stretch That Note

Good general advice I've found is to low pass your sub, high pass everything else, maybe sidechain the sub to the kick to duck it out the way slightly.

And the biggest difference I've ever found when mixing lowend.
Bass trap and treat your room for reflections.

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ScanProAudio & 3XS Audio Systems
ScanProAudio Blog

If you’re struggling to find space for this sub-bass then does the song need it? For example, if you have a huge kick drum thumping along at 50Hz then where is your sub-bass going to live?

Big kick *or* big bass – it’s pretty much a choice. The cellar is a very small room – only space for one occupant down there!

As an aside...

I had a band bring me some material to re-mix for them. Part of the brief was that they wanted a 60Hz sub-tone added to the kick. When I began working on the mix the kick sounded fine to me – a nice 65Hz thud that poked you in the chest like a bridesmaid’s father.

When I asked why they felt it needed a sub-tone they said that it was because they read that some DJ somewhere did it. Sigh... I HPF’ed the kick and added the tone. It sounded pretty much identical, but the band were happy, so what do I know?

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An Eagle for an Emperor, A Kestrel for a Knave.

Is it any use mixing the sub on phones with good bass extension (eg HD25) ? After all, stereo image is not important for sub, and it is the bit of the mix most likely to hit room problems.

Don't have sufficient knowledge myself - curious about the answer !

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Instant gratification is actually pretty good. It's fast as well.

For the really low-lows I use my 'finger on the speaker cone' technique. Between that and my headphones I can get it nailed.

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An Eagle for an Emperor, A Kestrel for a Knave.

Thanks Elf.

Training my fingers might take a while, but it is probably worth it !

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Instant gratification is actually pretty good. It's fast as well.

Thanks guys, I really a appreciate all your suggestions,

I should have mentioned a few things regarding the music, genre etc.. it is Electro, original broken beat Electro, not 4 to the floor stuff, so sidechaining the bass to the kick drum would make it sound awful.

The kick is mixed to be punchy, but not subby, I rolled off the bottoms for this reason, so the sub has somewhere to sit.

I'm interested in the finger on speaker routine, having never used this technique, I'm presuming one would put their index finger on the outer edge of the cone - I don't have centre domes in mine, as they're dual concentric, so the outer edge and the cone itself are the only options (obviously best done before eating spare-ribs / chicken wings & suchlike). I guess I'm feeling for the equivalent 'bounce' as the rest of the track, just at a lower frequency?

Maybe I'm a million miles away, and if so, please correct me if I'm wrong.

Thanks once again for everyone's help & support n this issue, time is ticking and deadlines are looming.

I like Waves Maxx Bass plug. Rather than add low end it adds harmonics higher in the frequency spectrum and you're deceived into hearing more bass.

Magic

Quote _ Six _:

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I like Waves Maxx Bass plug. Rather than add low end it adds harmonics higher in the frequency spectrum and you're deceived into hearing more bass.

Magic

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I hate it But I do find their Renaisance Bass useful.

In addition to the finger/speaker approach, use a good spectrum analyser to see what's going on down there. Chances are that your room or phones won't give you a realistic impression of what's going on down there. Between good phones, frequency analyser, Renaissance Bass and a multiband compressor, it's usually possible to get a handle on the subs.

Quote LektroiD:

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I'm interested in the finger on speaker routine, having never used this technique, I'm presuming one would put their index finger on the outer edge of the cone

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Yes, that’s essentially it. I typically touch the cone where it joins the flexible seal at it’s edge. It’s the gentlest of touches, just enough so you can sense what’s happening.

I’ve been doing this since I was old enough to reach a speaker!

It’s a bit difficult for me to explain, because this really is second-nature to me, but I find I can ’feel’ the bass end of a mix better than I can hear it. If my finger doesn’t feel the pulse of the kick drum or the purr of the bass then I know that needs some work. If I can feel other frequencies interfering with things down there then it’s time to do some remedial work.

An obvious example might be if you feel the cone leaping from it’s mount – then you’ve got some uncontrolled sub-bass going on!

It may be something you can train yourself to do. I don’t know if other engineers do it, but it helps me enormously. It often gets some strange looks from people who haven’t previously worked with me!

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An Eagle for an Emperor, A Kestrel for a Knave.

Quote LektroiD:

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I should have mentioned a few things regarding the music, genre etc.. it is Electro, original broken beat Electro, not 4 to the floor stuff, so sidechaining the bass to the kick drum would make it sound awful.

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Not if your careful with it. I'm not talking about your clubland pumped bassline special but a subtle, gentle ducking of the sub by a tiny bit just as the kicks hit home. I write DnB and Breaks and it can help the drums cut through the sub without being detrimental to the whole mix or being in your face obvious.

I use the Elf finger technique (it sounds like I should have a black belt when phrased like that) as well althrough if you've got a sub mounted I find it as easy to crank it right up and just watch how the cone responds to the bottom end. If the's too much undefined motion to it's response then you can normally tell if the's too much low energy going on.

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ScanProAudio & 3XS Audio Systems
ScanProAudio Blog

'The Elven Finger Technique'

I like it. It sounds like a specialist book, with pencil sketches of a naked lady and beardy bloke on the cover.

Of course, it's going to become colloquially corrupted to 'Eleventh Finger Technique' and then it's likely I'll be arrested again.

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An Eagle for an Emperor, A Kestrel for a Knave.

a "specialist" book eh?

just imagine the infomercials... "my bass was all over the place... until i tried the Elven finger technique!"

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hourglass | random thoughts | doubledotdash!? collective

Ah, but you should try the Eleven-finger technique

is using your eleventh finger like finding your third eye...?

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hourglass | random thoughts | doubledotdash!? collective