Been pondering this a bit and was wondering if anyone else had any thoughts. The whole business of the iPad and apps is truly an amazing thing. In our industry the stuff that can be picked up for a few quid to run on an iPad is mind boggling. IK's iRig is a good example, so is the Reactable http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/reactable-mobile/id381127666?mt=8 not to mention matrix sequencers, drum machines, TC's polytune etc etc. Now the flaw in the iPad, from a serious music tech point of view, is that you can't integrate it with anything and you can't run two things at once. I play in a church worship band and it would be a beautiful thing to outfit everyone with an iPad that had all the written music on so you could dial up whatever song is conjured up next - even better if the band leader could "push" the right music to all musicians with the slide of a finger - and for me i'd like to be running Amplitube and the polytune at the same time - but you can't. Shame.

So, anyway, my question is about whether "apps" are ever likely to make it onto more open platforms. There are Windows 7 tablets on the way, like the ZooStorm SL8 http://www.zoostorm.com/News/5-zoostorm-launch-the-sl8-tablet-netbook.aspx that have the potential of being more useful to the performing artist (i think) but it all comes down to the software. If i have to run the full version of amplitube and Cubase, plus Sibelius and an ASIO audio interface it'll cost nearer £1000 in software alone as opposed to maybe 20 quid in apps. Maybe that's the point, maybe the iPad and apps are designed to be a toy exactly so that you can't actually do anything serious with it - therefore manufacturers of software aren't actually giving you good value anything, it's just a marketing ruse - an expensive advertising hoarding, that then gets people to buy the real thing to run on a real computer.......

Are apps the future of software? Would we ever see Cubase going for £3.99 on iTunes? Is there an alternative? I think the iPad is a beautiful piece of work - just wish it did more

Any philosophical thinkers out there?

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Looking at the spec of that Tablet it looks no more powerful than the current atom based kneebooks, which doubt would give you much joy trying to run Cubase 5 & Amplitude!

Maybe as the dual core atoms become more common, but even then running a fully fledged sequencer is still a while off. Cantable and a few plug ins through would be more likely I reckon, given the right I/O options.

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ScanProAudio & 3XS Audio Systems
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No matter what platform a typical commercial DAW is designed to run on, I can't see £3.99 being enough to feed a team of programmers to deliver it!

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An Eagle for an Emperor, A Kestrel for a Knave.

Quote Pete Kaine:

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Looking at the spec of that Tablet it looks no more powerful than the current atom based kneebooks, which doubt would give you much joy trying to run Cubase 5 & Amplitude!

Maybe as the dual core atoms become more common, but even then running a fully fledged sequencer is still a while off. Cantable and a few plug ins through would be more likely I reckon, given the right I/O options.

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Yes, sure, but i'm looking at it conceptually rather than pragmatically, besides i've run Ableton live sessions from a netbook, with Novation guitar FX without problems. Technology aside do you see apps becoming how all software is delivered in the future?

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Quote The Elf:

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No matter what platform a typical commercial DAW is designed to run on, I can't see £3.99 being enough to feed a team of programmers to deliver it!

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And yet we find plenty of complex apps, that do indeed feed teams of programmers on caviar sandwiches because they've had a billion downloads. The Amplitube Music iApp is a tenner, the less featured Amplitube Live for regular computers is £100 - they will easily sell the app ten times more than Amp Live. All this micro-budget stuff is key don't you think? It's there, it's instant and it's only a tenner.

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Quote robinv:

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Quote The Elf:

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The Amplitube Music iApp is a tenner, the less featured Amplitube Live for regular computers is £100 - they will easily sell the app ten times more than Amp Live. All this micro-budget stuff is key don't you think? It's there, it's instant and it's only a tenner.

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Yeah, but the vast amount of the development work has already been funded by the full program development and then it's simply been ported which is a far cheaper job.

The biggest problem for windows tablet developers is the lack of store front to keep the downloads legit. The reason people have been making money from Apple products is the effort to jailbreak them for a none technical user and the fact the store is easy to use and well managed. You only have to look at the Android platform to see what happens when this isn't the case (i.e. sod all in the way of decent pay apps).

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ScanProAudio & 3XS Audio Systems
ScanProAudio Blog

Quote Pete Kaine:

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Yeah, but the vast amount of the development work has already been funded by the full program development and then it's simply been ported which is a far cheaper job.

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Perhaps, but that's also true of Amplitube live being an off shoot of Amp3 - didnt require anything other than removing features and yet it's £100. There's also plenty that's only ever been available as an iapp - where's the TC Polytune VST? So this is surely to do with perceived value and what the market can stand - don't apps show us that the days of high value software are numbered?

Quote Pete Kaine:

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The biggest problem for windows tablet developers is the lack of store front to keep the downloads legit. The reason people have been making money from Apple products is the effort to jailbreak them for a none technical user and the fact the store is easy to use and well managed. You only have to look at the Android platform to see what happens when this isn't the case (i.e. sod all in the way of decent pay apps).

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Is the lack of pay apps on Android to do with the shop being not as good? Not sure about that (by the way i dont own a smartphone so my experience is limited - no mobile signal where i live). As for making things legit - if Cubase was £10 there wouldn't be any cracked software - they'd be no point, that is surely part of the attraction of the "app". People don't mind paying the cost of a coffee and a pork pie on a piece of cool software they may or may not use - there's no incentive to steal it, there's every incentive to give it a go and blow a couple of quid.

Photoshop is another good example. If each of the products in CS5 was a tenner as opposed to a grand then everyone would buy it - "everyone" being every computer user in the world. In fact it would probably ship preinstalled on every machine. Adobe would make a squillion and be able to sell support contracts to pro users who need the assurance of tech support. No more piracy - job done, mine's a martini.

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Quote robinv:

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And yet we find plenty of complex apps, that do indeed feed teams of programmers on caviar sandwiches because they've had a billion downloads.

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...which won't happen for a DAW, because only a tiny percentage of people would even know what it is, let alone pay for it.

And don't we already pretty much have this model anyway? When I buy most software now I don't get a box and manual - I just get a link to a download. Isn't that all an 'app' is in reality - an instant software download?

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An Eagle for an Emperor, A Kestrel for a Knave.

HTC are reportedly developing an 'iPad beater' tablet to use with Google Chrome OS, so it will be interesting to see what emerges there.

However, as has been hinted, the market for DAW apps is tiny in comparison with most others. iRig is great (and it did in fact require considerable re-programming to work on that platform, according to a conversation I had with IK) but the market for fretboard-w***er applications is much larger than that for DAWs.

I'm sure there'll be an increasing role for multi-touch-screen technology in DAWs, whether for the DAWs themselves, or as control surfaces for studio or live stuff... but screen size on tablets, whatever the power, will probably be a show-stopper for many people when it comes to full-scale DAWs.

for the pro and home pro studio I see the move towards apps that interface and supplement your main DAW but I don't see them replacing. In that sense I also don't see a huge swing to lower software costs although I do think there will be a downward trend.

One problem is that they simply aren't that ergonomic or user friendly for a large project, recording a couple of tracks on location though is an area that they can excel at.

If one comes out with a HDMI input you can use it as a monitor for your DSLR video camera, can the iPad do this? Not audio related just something I'm looking for!

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Quote robinv:

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Perhaps, but that's also true of Amplitube live being an off shoot of Amp3 - didnt require anything other than removing features and yet it's £100. There's also plenty that's only ever been available as an iapp - where's the TC Polytune VST? So this is surely to do with perceived value and what the market can stand - don't apps show us that the days of high value software are numbered?

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Yeah, but these have to be developed and paid by someone when a new product is required. Your asking if it's the future and I'm just saying it's a small part of the picture rather than the ulitmate destination at this time.

Quote robinv:

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Is the lack of pay apps on Android to do with the shop being not as good? Not sure about that (by the way i dont own a smartphone so my experience is limited - no mobile signal where i live).

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Very much so. Android handsets have been out selling Iphones for most of the year and yet developers are still not taking to it because the shop is so bad at the whole payment thing. Apples Q.C. process whilst a pain in the arse for some developers has at least kept the shop in check.

Mixedup Quote:

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As for making things legit - if Cubase was £10 there wouldn't be any cracked software - they'd be no point, that is surely part of the attraction of the "app". People don't mind paying the cost of a coffee and a pork pie on a piece of cool software they may or may not use - there's no incentive to steal it, there's every incentive to give it a go and blow a couple of quid.

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Some people will take it if it's available for free. The's no other reason I can think of for the Jailbroken Iphone Appstore where you can pretty much get everything for nothing.

I also have to point out here that Apple still isn't No.1 O.S. wise. Last time I checked a few months ago market penertration is still something like 4th place and it's still being outsold by at least 2 of the O.S's above it. If Android/Symbian/Noikia app shops start to do the whole charging thing properly at some point it might work, but then you have to have developers porting the client 4 times and that once more costs time and money.

I know I'm focusing a lot on the Iphone platform here, but it's the only one that is currently making enough money to pay the developers. As soon as you move to windows you open up to the world of hacks and cracks again.

Mixedup Quote:

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Photoshop is another good example. If each of the products in CS5 was a tenner as opposed to a grand then everyone would buy it - "everyone" being every computer user in the world. In fact it would probably ship preinstalled on every machine. Adobe would make a squillion and be able to sell support contracts to pro users who need the assurance of tech support. No more piracy - job done, mine's a martini.

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Better ring them up and tell them then! It'd be foolish to believe for one second, that they haven't already considered this themselves through. Not everyone requires or needs photoshop through... If they did GIMP would have been downloaded by everyone on the planet by this point.

Quote Mixedup:

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HTC are reportedly developing an 'iPad beater' tablet to use with Google Chrome OS, so it will be interesting to see what emerges there.

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Back in March this year the was over 120 Android based tablets announced as being due on the market by the year end, and I've seen many more announced since then. The's already loads out using it in fact, and I like a few of them as PMP's and mobile devices (I had a Dell Streak to play with for a few months) but I can't see them being an all in one solution for a while. Sure they can run some apps and using it as a pedal board sim is ideal for instance, but once you start working with multiple plug's within a host your going to start chipping away at what little power the really is very, very quickly.

Quote Mixedup:

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However, as has been hinted, the market for DAW apps is tiny in comparison with most others. iRig is great (and it did in fact require considerable re-programming to work on that platform, according to a conversation I had with IK) but the market for fretboard-w***er applications is much larger than that for DAWs.

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That's what I was getting at

I've no doubt the will be the power futher down the line to be able to achieve what's being discussed here, and no doubt the ability to sell it through will also finally be developed as well. I'd be more excited to see cloud processing happen first through to be honest, as that could happen now if someone was to develop it but once more I don't imagine the is the market there to make it viable at this time.

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ScanProAudio & 3XS Audio Systems
ScanProAudio Blog

Quote Mixedup:

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However, as has been hinted, the market for DAW apps is tiny in comparison with most others. iRig is great (and it did in fact require considerable re-programming to work on that platform, according to a conversation I had with IK) but the market for fretboard-w***er applications is much larger than that for DAWs.

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Yes and no
People want to do stuff on their computers. Lots of people get pleasure from GarageBand - PC users don't get that opportunity without having to "discover" something for themselves and few do. The market for music making software can be huge if done right - but you need Garage Band (or even Rock Band) style instant gratification. It's like without photo software shipping with cameras most people wouldnt know about it - or if it wasnt for Windows Movie Maker most people wouldnt know that you could edit video on a computer. I tend to use my dad as my rule of thumb when it comes to a clueless but keen computer user and that's been his experience. In response to what Pete said my dad's never heard of GIMP but he has heard of Photoshop and has a cut down version and would love the real thing - if it was pennies.

Quote Mixedup:

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I'm sure there'll be an increasing role for multi-touch-screen technology in DAWs, whether for the DAWs themselves, or as control surfaces for studio or live stuff... but screen size on tablets, whatever the power, will probably be a show-stopper for many people when it comes to full-scale DAWs.

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I believe that too, but it's difficult to know exactly what the current technology is capable of. Very few multi-touch screens specify how many touches it takes - most seem to assume that you will use two fingers - no good if you want to use a mixer. I saw this - http://solutions.3m.co.uk/wps/portal/3M/en_GB/TouchSystems/TouchScreen/Sol utions/Multitouch/ looks flipping awesome (£1299) but the fact they specify the high touch count makes me think that other cheaper sub-£300 multi-touch screens are a bit light on the multi - dunno - could someone try this out for me - thanks.

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Even the tiny iPhone has three-finger gestures in a couple of programs I use.

Paul

(Oops, I meant "apps", didn't I!)

Quote robinv:

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Quote Mixedup:

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I'm sure there'll be an increasing role for multi-touch-screen technology in DAWs, whether for the DAWs themselves, or as control surfaces for studio or live stuff... but screen size on tablets, whatever the power, will probably be a show-stopper for many people when it comes to full-scale DAWs.

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I believe that too, but it's difficult to know exactly what the current technology is capable of. Very few multi-touch screens specify how many touches it takes - most seem to assume that you will use two fingers - no good if you want to use a mixer. I saw this - http://solutions.3m.co.uk/wps/portal/3M/en_GB/TouchSystems/TouchScreen/Sol utions/Multitouch/ looks flipping awesome (£1299) but the fact they specify the high touch count makes me think that other cheaper sub-£300 multi-touch screens are a bit light on the multi - dunno - could someone try this out for me - thanks.

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The issue is the lack of applications being written with multi-touch support. You don't want two or three finger gestures for DAW mixing. You want faders to independently recognise three (or more) different cursors (fingers) so that each can be moved independently. If you've ever worked with multiple mice (eg via Glovepie) you'll know what I mean: you can have multiple cursors, but Cubase/Logic/Sonar etc only recognises one — even if the OS recognises multiple touches.

Pete... I reckon there's a bit of mis-quoting going on above. I never said that about Photoshop!

Btw, another key difference between iPad/iPhone and potentially competing stuff is that the hardware is all the same for Apple. So, eg. iRig adapter will definitely work with iPhone, iPad & iPod Touch, but it's harder to guarantee and test it for every HTC, Samsung, Nokia device, even if they can test with the OS itself. Just like OSX v Win 7 all over again.

Quote robinv:

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In response to what Pete said my dad's never heard of GIMP but he has heard of Photoshop and has a cut down version and would love the real thing - if it was pennies.

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Why does he want Photoshop when Gimp can do everything that a consumer user would ever require in a simplified user front end and it's free?

Photoshop is universal because of adobes marketing campaign for the last couple of decades. GIMP has been around for well over a decade but has had no marketing because it is open source.

Microsoft office is another example. Taking your previous example, I'm sure your father would love to get a copy of that for a few quid but Open Office has been going a couple of decades as well and does more than M.S. office does these days but I bet if your father was going to get an office application he'd pony up for M.S. rather than use the more featured free one.

It's all about marketing as I'm sure we're all well aware. And a very large chunk of those sky high software fee's is what pays for it. If everything suddenly became worth £5 as an app then you'd have a generation of apps that are well known and everyone would buy them. But then without the funding they couldn't continue to expand the product line and maintain the marketing so either their popularity starts to wain or more disturbingly (and I fear more likely) they'll become dominant with all of the cash flow for that market sector going to them, and then they'll stagnate and other applications won't be able to surpass them in sales (no marketing) and it becomes bad for progression of the market itself.

I'm almost tempted to return to my opening question and say that he simply want's it because it has a value, but the question is what would happen to the market long term if you then removed that value?

Quote Mixedup:

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Pete... I reckon there's a bit of mis-quoting going on above. I never said that about Photoshop!

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Sorry... Got a little Mixedup!

Quote:

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Btw, another key difference between iPad/iPhone and potentially competing stuff is that the hardware is all the same for Apple. So, eg. iRig adapter will definitely work with iPhone, iPad & iPod Touch, but it's harder to guarantee and test it for every HTC, Samsung, Nokia device, even if they can test with the OS itself. Just like OSX v Win 7 all over again.

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Very true. Google's certification team is already having kittens about staggered roll outs across all of it's licence holders, and it's only getting worse as more people enter the market.

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ScanProAudio & 3XS Audio Systems
ScanProAudio Blog

Quote Mixedup:

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The issue is the lack of applications being written with multi-touch support. You don't want two or three finger gestures for DAW mixing. You want faders to independently recognise three (or more) different cursors (fingers) so that each can be moved independently. If you've ever worked with multiple mice (eg via Glovepie) you'll know what I mean: you can have multiple cursors, but Cubase/Logic/Sonar etc only recognises one — even if the OS recognises multiple touches.

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That's an interesting question and something i'd like to investigate - because you can move multiple faders with MIDI, so it's not as if Cubase can only do one thing at a time - but i get what you say about the implementation of the mouse - seriously needs to be tried out
Glovepie - you know i actually own a P5 glove

The iPad apparently supports 11 touches.

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Free/cheepo model aside through:

http://most-expensive.net/top-ten-iphone-apps

Once the handhelds power get's up to being usable for larger apps there's certainly already a predecent for more expensive specialist software being made available in a held form.

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ScanProAudio & 3XS Audio Systems
ScanProAudio Blog

Quote Pete Kaine:

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Why does he want Photoshop when Gimp can do everything that a consumer user would ever require in a simplified user front end and it's free?

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Ummm because he's never heard of GIMP - where would he get that information? You assume far too much savvy in the average user. Although funnily enough my mum uses OpenOffice - but then she's a secretary and has been online longer than me (Compuserve - those were the days).

Quote Pete Kaine:

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And a very large chunk of those sky high software fee's is what pays for it. If everything suddenly became worth £5 as an app then you'd have a generation of apps that are well known and everyone would buy them. But then without the funding they couldn't continue to expand the product line and maintain the marketing so either their popularity starts to wain or more disturbingly (and I fear more likely) they'll become dominant with all of the cash flow for that market sector going to them, and then they'll stagnate and other applications won't be able to surpass them in sales (no marketing) and it becomes bad for progression of the market itself.

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But this is exactly what i'm trying to get across. Sell 5 copies at £1000 is the same as selling 500 copies at £10. What iApps have demonstrated is that many more people are prepared to pay small amounts of money for software (when it's done right as you say). Music is a good example here - music is now essentially worthless - it costs pennies but still people are reluctant to buy it. It's become so widespread and legitimate as free (spotify.com) that artists are having to find other ways of making money - gigs, special editions, HD, merchandising etc. Software will go the same way. Artists are still making money and making music - software houses will do the same if their model changes. I don't imagine my kids will ever have to pay hundreds of pounds for software - they may subscribe to something, pay for an entertaining game experience, but ultimately it'll probably be a £10 app for anything serious and then perhaps pay for some online training and support

I don't believe things will stay as they are in terms of the relationship between software, computers and perceived value - i think apps demonstrate that and IK demonstrate that by moving from small Italian music tech software house to (almost) house hold name with a £3.99 app and £20 interface for the iphone. All those months spent crafting the Miroslav Orchestra and all they needed to do was pretty up a jack plug - they will make tons of money.




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Yeah, it's easy enough to give direct control of parameters via MIDI, OSC or whatever, but the GUI is a layer in between - your mouse controls the fader, controls the parameter. When using a control surface, you're directly controlling the parameter. Not impossible to do by any means, it's just that it's different from how most DAWs' GUIs have been designed to date. I'd expect to see that change before long.

Anyway, sod the touch screen, why not just control your DAW with Glove gestures

Quote robinv:

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but ultimately it'll probably be a £10 app for anything serious and then perhaps pay for some online training and support

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I think you are seriously underestimating how much it costs to write, develop and support a piece of software, such as Logic, or Cubase. The number of paying users at £10 would simply not support the hundreds of man-years required to deliver such software.

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An Eagle for an Emperor, A Kestrel for a Knave.

Quote robinv:

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Quote Pete Kaine:

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Why does he want Photoshop when Gimp can do everything that a consumer user would ever require in a simplified user front end and it's free?

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Ummm because he's never heard of GIMP - where would he get that information?

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My point exactly!

Why has he heard of Photoshop? Because Adobe has spent millions & millions over the last 20 years in promoting it and everyone accepts it as the defacto standard thanks to promtion and pushing of the product through various channels.

Quote robinv:

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You assume far too much savvy in the average user.

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I assume the same as you do. That he won't know about it unless he's told about it. That will be either through word of mouth or more likely via some company spending a wad load of cash to make him aware of it.

Quote:

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Although funnily enough my mum uses OpenOffice - but then she's a secretary and has been online longer than me (Compuserve - those were the days).

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I recall using Openoffice when I was at school and it was still called Star Office and pretty much the going standard! If she's worked as a secretary for a good number of years I'm not supprised she's got a good grounding in it. I was always a bit suprised when it went open source.

But then they couldn't compete with the M.S. juggernaught of branding that is M.S. Office when it was paid for, or even now it's free!

Quote robinv:

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Quote Pete Kaine:

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And a very large chunk of those sky high software fee's is what pays for it. If everything suddenly became worth £5 as an app then you'd have a generation of apps that are well known and everyone would buy them. But then without the funding they couldn't continue to expand the product line and maintain the marketing so either their popularity starts to wain or more disturbingly (and I fear more likely) they'll become dominant with all of the cash flow for that market sector going to them, and then they'll stagnate and other applications won't be able to surpass them in sales (no marketing) and it becomes bad for progression of the market itself.

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But this is exactly what i'm trying to get across. Sell 5 copies at £1000 is the same as selling 500 copies at £10.

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So say M.S. office or Adobe is now priced at £30 or you have Open Office or GIMP priced at £4.00.

They both do the same job, and acheive the same thing.

Which are people going to want?

I'd say the £30 one's because of perceived value due to past and current advertising. The £3.00 app's can't match this level of product pushing so they continue to not make money and the developers go out of business.

On the other hand the piracy of the £30 continues to take place, because "Hey, we're not paying money out to these rip off merchants..."

So all the small talented developers undersell themselves and go out of business because they can't compete with the giants and their big budget adverts. It then get's to the point where no one can compete with the established No.1 in the market place and they give up. Long term that firm sits on it's hands and then fails to increase development and it leads to the stagnetation of the market place as it then fails to develop.

For an example of this I'd say look at the history of IE6 and all the B.S. current web developers continue to deal with due to that dark period in the net's development.

Quote:

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What iApps have demonstrated is that many more people are prepared to pay small amounts of money for software (when it's done right as you say).

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What it's proven is that Apples market share is mostly none techincal end users without the ability to jailbreak their phones...

Quote:

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Music is a good example here - music is now essentially worthless - it costs pennies but still people are reluctant to buy it.

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That proves my point above and disproves your "smalls amounts" theory. We've reached a stage now where a lot of people (I hesitate to simply point the finger at the under 25 age bracket) take it as granted that you can get pretty much anything you want for free media wise if you know what your doing. Apple's done a great job at keeping it's phones locked down and preventing piracy, but other firms using a Microsoft/Google O.S. as it's desktop won't have the same Orwellian control over the code being run on it.

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It's become so widespread and legitimate as free (spotify.com) that artists are having to find other ways of making money - gigs, special editions, HD, merchandising etc. Software will go the same way. Artists are still making money and making music - software houses will do the same if their model changes. I don't imagine my kids will ever have to pay hundreds of pounds for software - they may subscribe to something, pay for an entertaining game experience, but ultimately it'll probably be a £10 app for anything serious and then perhaps pay for some online training and support

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Ahhh... I think our points just kind of merged

I agree. But then no one has currently worked out just what and how they are going to manage to do this.

The world of GOO guys sold their game through at under £7. They did this to encourage people to pay for what would otherwise have been a £20 game. It has been one of the biggest selling indie games of all time and yet they still estimate that 90% of players are on pirated versions.

Cost will not beat piracy. That genie is well out of the bottle.

So if an application has a market place of half a million users world wide and half of those pay a tenner (the other half pirate it) then the might be the market there to support one product being developed, but is the, the market there to support more than one?

If the isn't then I don't feel that this would be good for the market place due to the lack of inovation I fear would follow.

The other saviour here is the long touted cloud computing angle and it's the one that the guys with the real money are going after (Google/Microsoft/Sun)

http://www.wired.com/epicenter/2010/05/microsoft-cloud/

In all honesty I don't buy into that either (and I've spent the best part of a decade following it) but it's the only model that would enable them to control software use via subscription 100%. Personally through I don't fancy having my software all stored and accessed remotely not for security reasons but for network capability reasons, although I'm sure business's will look at that in reverse.

Quote:

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I don't believe things will stay as they are in terms of the relationship between software, computers and perceived value - i think apps demonstrate that and IK demonstrate that by moving from small Italian music tech software house to (almost) house hold name with a £3.99 app and £20 interface for the iphone. All those months spent crafting the Miroslav Orchestra and all they needed to do was pretty up a jack plug - they will make tons of money.

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I would love to see their sales figures and then see how much it contributes to the overall value vs development time over the years it took to get to that point.

I just went and looked for a stock listing for IK acturly to see if the was any end of year finances I could have checked but to no avail.

Put it this way though, if it was a public limited company I wouldn't add it to my portfolio...

Back to your point above about Miroslav Orchestra. What about the users who want to buy that software and not some £3.99 budget guitar rig. If IK tomorrow turned into a company that wrote nothing but guitar amp sims for the iphone because it made them a load of money, that would put more speclist products like Miroslav on the back burning or in the bin as it does take the time and money to develop. Do we really want that?

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Quote:

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In all honesty I don't buy into that either (and I've spent the best part of a decade following it) but it's the only model that would enable them to control software use via subscription 100%.

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This is definitely where I see the future of software going, but how far in the future we are looking I'm not sure.

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Say hello on Facebook www.facebook.com/CarillonAudioSystems

One of the best peices I've read on M.S. and it's cloud strategy is a old Wired piece interviewing Ray Ozzie who is lead on the project. I was trying to find it to post this morning, but I've only just remembered who the focus of the artical was.

http://www.wired.com/techbiz/people/magazine/16-12/ff_ozzie?currentPage=al l

Worth a read it your interested in where they want to take the desktop.

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ScanProAudio & 3XS Audio Systems
ScanProAudio Blog

Quote Mixedup:

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Anyway, sod the touch screen, why not just control your DAW with Glove gestures

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Oh my aching arms!

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PC-Music.com hints, tips & reviews
Rain Computers UK - Creative Audio PC's

Quote The Elf:

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I think you are seriously underestimating how much it costs to write, develop and support a piece of software, such as Logic, or Cubase. The number of paying users at £10 would simply not support the hundreds of man-years required to deliver such software.

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I would be if i believed that the 50 people who bought the software at £1000 would be replaced by 50 people buying it at £10. What i believe apps have shown is that with a keenly priced bit of software through decent delivery technology you can pick up 100 times or 1000 times more sales. I'm therefore suggesting that the income would be at least the same but probably more. You seem to be saying that dropping the price would not result in more sales, just less revenue - i'm suggesting otherwise

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PC-Music.com hints, tips & reviews
Rain Computers UK - Creative Audio PC's

Quote Pete Kaine:

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So all the small talented developers undersell themselves and go out of business because they can't compete with the giants and their big budget adverts. It then get's to the point where no one can compete with the established No.1 in the market place and they give up. Long term that firm sits on it's hands and then fails to increase development and it leads to the stagnetation of the market place as it then fails to develop.

---

.... nations fall, earthquakes, mass hysteria!

I get all of that i do. I'm not trying to make some kind of point here or win anyone over to anything. I'm looking at iPad apps and thinking geez, these are good, these are fabulously priced, people are buying, people are making money from their products. It's funny how i am now more likely to be able to make money by selling an app that will play my album rather than selling the album itself.

You mention indie games - through Steam i've spent a few quid on indie games some of which are amazing. I never would have done that without the Steam delivery system and i never would have heard about them without browsing through their library and trying some demos. I imagine that Steam has revitalised the fortunes of a few indie programmers. And i'd rather pay a fiver for something real than waste half a day searching for a bittorrent or crack somewhere and go through the potential horror of downloading something nasty etc etc. iTunes also shows that there's a section of the market who dont want to fanny about finding cracks and free downloads, they just want the real thing and dont mind paying a few quid for it.

So... some people pay, some don't, but what i've seen is that far more people are happy to pay a quid for a simple add-on to their phone than i would have believed. The success of the app store came from nowhere - it's a completely new market, a new stream of revenue that simply didnt exist before except perhaps in ringtones - and who would have believed people would pay for that? But they do.

Quote Pete Kaine:

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Back to your point above about Miroslav Orchestra. What about the users who want to buy that software and not some £3.99 budget guitar rig. If IK tomorrow turned into a company that wrote nothing but guitar amp sims for the iphone because it made them a load of money, that would put more speclist products like Miroslav on the back burning or in the bin as it does take the time and money to develop. Do we really want that?

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I dont think so but i dont think music software is developed purely from a business point of view - the same as a hand built guitar is not about the money, it's about the craftmanship. I would say that the iRig is going to enable IK to create even more fabulous things because they have a new revenue stream to fund it.

The cloud stuff - nice idea but as i dont even have a mobile phone reception in my village i doubt the viability of a flawless network available everywhere to enable me to use my dumb terminal. Same with email - i like it local to my machine - but that's just me, for the average user i'm sure they'd love it.

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PC-Music.com hints, tips & reviews
Rain Computers UK - Creative Audio PC's

Quote robinv:

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Quote The Elf:

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I think you are seriously underestimating how much it costs to write, develop and support a piece of software, such as Logic, or Cubase. The number of paying users at £10 would simply not support the hundreds of man-years required to deliver such software.

---

I would be if i believed that the 50 people who bought the software at £1000 would be replaced by 50 people buying it at £10. What i believe apps have shown is that with a keenly priced bit of software through decent delivery technology you can pick up 100 times or 1000 times more sales. I'm therefore suggesting that the income would be at least the same but probably more. You seem to be saying that dropping the price would not result in more sales, just less revenue - i'm suggesting otherwise

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I just can't see it happening. Maybe those 50 sales are all that would happen, no matter what the price. OK, I'm exaggerating a little, but you see my point.

If a piece of lathe-control software is going for a tenner would I buy it? No, because I have no idea what to do with it, no interest in using it and would need other things to make it of any practical use. I believe it's the same for something as specialised as a DAW.

In the tight-knit audo-centric technical world that you and I inhabit we tend to imagine that everyone shares our interest - in reality the number is tiny.

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An Eagle for an Emperor, A Kestrel for a Knave.

There is also the point that when you get to the £10 mark you aren't investing any real money so you don't invest as much time learning an application. It becomes too throw away and so the depth that would be in an application such a full DAW wouldn't be found by most of it's users so although it might have a killer feature is wouldn't stand out over a basic option at the same sort of price.

If you have decided to pay £300-1000 on software your going to take your time and learn it.

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Say hello on Facebook www.facebook.com/CarillonAudioSystems

Quote robinv:

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Quote Pete Kaine:

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So all the small talented developers undersell themselves and go out of business because they can't compete with the giants and their big budget adverts. It then get's to the point where no one can compete with the established No.1 in the market place and they give up. Long term that firm sits on it's hands and then fails to increase development and it leads to the stagnetation of the market place as it then fails to develop.

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.... nations fall, earthquakes, mass hysteria!

I get all of that i do. I'm not trying to make some kind of point here or win anyone over to anything. I'm looking at iPad apps and thinking geez, these are good, these are fabulously priced, people are buying, people are making money from their products. It's funny how i am now more likely to be able to make money by selling an app that will play my album rather than selling the album itself.

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And I do agree with all that. I've just playing the counter arguement

The's only a finite amount of cash kicking around the ecomony and taking ringtones as an example they worked and made money, because your average joe couldn't download, sideload or write them in a midi editor free of charge. At the same time singles plummited because you could do those first two to your hearts content, and as more and more mainstream offer the ability to use audio as your ringtone, those crazy frog slinging firms are slowly making less and less money.

Quote:

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You mention indie games - through Steam i've spent a few quid on indie games some of which are amazing. I never would have done that without the Steam delivery system and i never would have heard about them without browsing through their library and trying some demos. I imagine that Steam has revitalised the fortunes of a few indie programmers. And i'd rather pay a fiver for something real than waste half a day searching for a bittorrent or crack somewhere and go through the potential horror of downloading something nasty etc etc. iTunes also shows that there's a section of the market who dont want to fanny about finding cracks and free downloads, they just want the real thing and dont mind paying a few quid for it.

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And I agree with all that whole heartedly. I'm the same, I've spent many hours playing Audiosurf, which I'm sure I'd never have bought otherwise and my client is full of games I've bought on impulse when they've been in a sale that I've never even downloaded after paying!

I can't help the inital enthusiasm for Apps is the same as this, and as it all becomes old news those million copy sucess stories will slowly dry up.

Hell we're already at a point where those apps that are not in the top 10 are selling many, many times less than those who are. Your only going to make your fortune if you can get an app to the top of the store, and this is a risk that would be pretty huge for a proper development firm that has to pay wages.

Quote:

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So... some people pay, some don't, but what i've seen is that far more people are happy to pay a quid for a simple add-on to their phone than i would have believed. The success of the app store came from nowhere - it's a completely new market, a new stream of revenue that simply didnt exist before except perhaps in ringtones - and who would have believed people would pay for that? But they do.

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See above!

Quote:

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I dont think so but i dont think music software is developed purely from a business point of view - the same as a hand built guitar is not about the money, it's about the craftmanship. I would say that the iRig is going to enable IK to create even more fabulous things because they have a new revenue stream to fund it.

---

It's an interesting counter arguement and one I agree would stand for the more boutique developers. Those that have a business driven focus through I'm not so sure.

Quote:

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The cloud stuff - nice idea but as i dont even have a mobile phone reception in my village i doubt the viability of a flawless network available everywhere to enable me to use my dumb terminal. Same with email - i like it local to my machine - but that's just me, for the average user i'm sure they'd love it.

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That's why I don't buy into it as well. I want things local that I can control, although long term if the big boys get their way I can't help but feel they don't really want to give us a choice in the matter. Apple is the only firm in a postion to acturly pull this off through at this point, and they are not exactly forging ahead with it.... think we're safe for a couple of years yet!

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ScanProAudio & 3XS Audio Systems
ScanProAudio Blog

the reason you're not going to see Cubase or Photoshop sold for £10 a pop to 50,000,000 customers instead of £500 a go to 100,000 customers is because there aren't 50,000,000 people who want the full features of those programs.

there is no difference between an iPhone app and a full-blown PC program except complexity and the language it's written in. "app" means application, same as the applications you have all over your computer. it's just that, to be able to run on a small device without a lot of power, they generally only do one thing and focus on doing it well. that's it. full stop. no difference.

if you want simple in terms of features, that can be developed cheaply and sold at those low price points. simple features - single use apps. even if that single feature is technically complex - e.g. the iRig app - it's still only one thing. one thing can be sold for a low price point and lots of people who want just one thing will buy it.

apps like Cubase and Photoshop are vastly more complicated and have many, many more features. they have these features because the main audience for these apps use them in depth - they are designed to appeal to power users. power users are generally willing to pay more for the product if it does all the things they want.

casual users, on the other hand, don't want so many features and certainly won't be willing to shell out so much for an app. but even if you were to strip out the feature set down to the very basics so you could market it to casual users, i doubt you'd be able to get enough of them on board to pay back the development cost. music, video, serious photo editing - like it or not, these are niche areas and there aren't that many interested people, not when compared to fart apps and LOL FUNNY JOKEZ 4 U apps.

so we're not going to see proper music applications being sold for less than they currently are just because Apple decided they'd tell us something that already exists is an innovation (Nokia had apps well before iPhone, as did RIM...).

what we might see is actually a shift away from limited feature set apps with cloud computing, as Pete was saying. mobile apps are limited because there's only so much you can do with a little processor and not very much memory - but if all the hard work is being done on a remote server, all your mobile device has to do is display what's going on. that means you can have a much lower powered CPU, less memory, and instead put the hardware focus on a good GPU and a great display. without changing your price point for your mobile device you can suddenly have it do a lot more, and look a lot better when it does it. cool! your mobile device isn't running Cubase, Sibelius and Amplitube, the servers are, and you're just controlling and reviewing them.

so... whether they're on tablets or mobile devices, apps will remain priced according to their feature set and development cost. but cloud processing might mean you don't have to spend so much on hardware to use them.

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hourglass | random thoughts | doubledotdash!? collective

Quote The Elf:

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In the tight-knit audo-centric technical world that you and I inhabit we tend to imagine that everyone shares our interest - in reality the number is tiny.

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It is and it isn't. Sales of guitars and other instruments are huge. Sales of Rock Band and other music based games are huge. A large proportion of guitarists also but effects, amps and recorders. It's not that the interest isn't there, it's that the computer is still a barrier to most people. The iphone has bypassed all that by essentially cutting the computer out of the equation - no extra interface or soundcard, no configuration, just download and it works - same largely with GarageBand. The inverse argument is that Cubase appears out of reach to most people because it's expensive and therefore complicated to use - which it isn't. How many copies of Fruity Loops get sold these days? Lots i think. But who knows - i'm only commenting and musing on what i see happening at the moment.

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PC-Music.com hints, tips & reviews
Rain Computers UK - Creative Audio PC's

Quote Carillon Audio Systems:

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There is also the point that when you get to the £10 mark you aren't investing any real money so you don't invest as much time learning an application. It becomes too throw away and so the depth that would be in an application such a full DAW wouldn't be found by most of it's users so although it might have a killer feature is wouldn't stand out over a basic option at the same sort of price.

If you have decided to pay £300-1000 on software your going to take your time and learn it.

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I think that's an illusion. You and I who get given our SRC dongles and NFR's have a hard time understanding the value and cost of software. I use Cubase all the time and have never had to pay for it. I agree that if you are paying hundreds of pounds then that's not a casual purchase - the flip side is that if it's a tenner then you might well buy 5 DAW's rather than one or simply buy an effect that you'll only use once. I can understand the value issue but it's self-imposed. I get as much enjoyment out of music i ripped off a friend as i do from a CD i purchased myself - but then i'm evil.
I'm working with Adobe at the moment and have just been given CS5 - i have spent hours and hours training myself in it and will spend weeks more i'm sure - and yet it has cost me nothing, instead i'm aware of its value as a creative tool rather than its monetary price. All good points though

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PC-Music.com hints, tips & reviews
Rain Computers UK - Creative Audio PC's

Quote onesecondglance:

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so... whether they're on tablets or mobile devices, apps will remain priced according to their feature set and development cost. but cloud processing might mean you don't have to spend so much on hardware to use them.

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Boo, hiss, you will pay for your lack of vision

Quote onesecondglance:

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there is no difference between an iPhone app and a full-blown PC program except complexity and the language it's written in. "app" means application, same as the applications you have all over your computer. it's just that, to be able to run on a small device without a lot of power, they generally only do one thing and focus on doing it well. that's it. full stop. no difference.

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I don't agree - my initial question was about these "apps" (and we all know what it means, but it has become a term in it's own right and is helpful in this discussion because we all understand what we are referring to - yes?) and their availability outside the iPad closed system. There's stuff coming out that isn't available elsewhere. The Amplitube app is far more complex than the Amplitube Live software and yet is £94.01 cheaper. So there is a difference, both in software, in market and in pricing model. Something new has happened here - whether there were apps on previous phones or not nothing has had this kind of impact before. Maybe this is the honeymoon period but i (and only i by the look of it) find it interested and am wondering (against a lot of opposition) what sort of impact this could have on our industry and software in general.

Quote onesecondglance:

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music, video, serious photo editing - like it or not, these are niche areas and there aren't that many interested people, not when compared to fart apps and LOL FUNNY JOKEZ 4 U apps.

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Too true, although i again find that almost every person i meet wants to edit video, fiddle with music and pictures on their computer... people are interested but we like to keep ourselves to ourselves.

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PC-Music.com hints, tips & reviews
Rain Computers UK - Creative Audio PC's

Quote Pete Kaine:

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And I agree with all that whole heartedly. I'm the same, I've spent many hours playing Audiosurf, which I'm sure I'd never have bought otherwise and my client is full of games I've bought on impulse when they've been in a sale that I've never even downloaded after paying!

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I'll check that out - i've lost days to Chime recently - fabulous.

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PC-Music.com hints, tips & reviews
Rain Computers UK - Creative Audio PC's

Quote:

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I think that's an illusion.

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It sure is but perceived value relating to price pays a big part in commerce and consumers attitude (just ask Apple users!!!)

So I think that Apps will remain fun throw away items but where they could be interesting is ones that interact with your main software, say a Cubase app for tracking live gigs, no other features just track and set levels, this when plugged into your main Cubase DAW expands to allow you to mix and finish the project and the app turns in to a control surface, these are the ways I see music software developing.

Cloud computing will be driven by games and gamers I reckon, what happened to that Cloud Xbox rival that was big news a couple of years ago?

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Say hello on Facebook www.facebook.com/CarillonAudioSystems

Quote robinv:

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So there is a difference, both in software, in market and in pricing model. Something new has happened here - whether there were apps on previous phones or not nothing has had this kind of impact before. Maybe this is the honeymoon period but i (and only i by the look of it) find it interested and am wondering (against a lot of opposition) what sort of impact this could have on our industry and software in general.

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software - it's a different programming language. that's it.
market - that is a difference, yes. having a single shopfront to sell these things isn't something we really had before.
pricing model - is a function of the market.

the only difference is the shopfront - how these things are sold. the underlying programs are not any different. shareware, freeware, donationware - they're all out there and being used by millions of people, on windows machines, macs, and on linux boxes. all that's different is the gathering of them together in one place and Apple / Google / whoever taking a nice little cut of whatever money changes hands...

so all that's changed is the distribution model. not the time or expertise it takes to make the software.

the bottom line is still the numbers. let's revisit the example from my earlier post. Cubase 5 retails for £417 - call it £400 for roundness. Steinberg's website says they have 1.5 million users worldwise. for the purposes of this let's say that only 10% of those users have Cubase (and all the others are using Nuendo, Wavelab, or other things). so that 150,000 people.

150,000 people paying £400 = £60,000,000

if Cubase were £10 a go, though:

£60,000,000 / £10 = 6,000,000 people

they would have to increase their userbase by 4000% to make the same as they do now. 4000%. that's just not gonna happen. sure, you may well get a few more sales if it were only £10 - although some people would actually leave, because they equate cheap software with bad software - but i seriously doubt that many more.

even if we were to say that, of that £400, 75% is all profit for a greedy corporation, you'd still need to sell 10 times as many copies at £10 a go to break even.

so if you want to sell it for £10 a go, you need to cut development costs so you don't need as many users. that means you cut features. where else are you going to cut costs? if you do less testing your software becomes unstable and no one will want it. if you do less UI design your software will be unusable and ugly and no one will want it. if you do less innovation your software will be obsolete and no one will want it.

where exactly are you going to make the savings?

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hourglass | random thoughts | doubledotdash!? collective

Quote Carillon Audio Systems:

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So I think that Apps will remain fun throw away items but where they could be interesting is ones that interact with your main software, say a Cubase app for tracking live gigs, no other features just track and set levels, this when plugged into your main Cubase DAW expands to allow you to mix and finish the project and the app turns in to a control surface, these are the ways I see music software developing.

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this seems like a realistic future! free controller apps, low cost single feature apps, all designed to plug into a full-blown system further down the line.

Quote Carillon Audio Systems:

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Cloud computing will be driven by games and gamers I reckon, what happened to that Cloud Xbox rival that was big news a couple of years ago?

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the media made a big deal out of a service that wasn't actually that great. cloud processing relies upon having a great network connection, and the infrastructure for that isn't around yet. once it is more widespread this sort of idea might take off.

personally i like the idea of using a big server's computing power but not the idea of also storing all my save files on that server. i suspect the vast majority of musicians would feel the same about their projects!

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hourglass | random thoughts | doubledotdash!? collective

Quote onesecondglance:

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software - it's a different programming language. that's it.

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No, not really. I can't pickup my 24" LCD screen and pretend to drink a pint of guinness with it, i can't rock my keyboard from side to side in order to move items on the screen, i can't bump my tower into another computer in order to exchange a file. It's not just "software" - the software in my washing machine isn't the same as the software in my car - it's all just "software" but it's very different, how it's being used, how it's being sold, what it enables you to do, taking advantage of unique hardware functionality that's no very portable to other platforms - lots and lots of differences.

Cubase - well, y'know, it's all just guess work and future predictions. My suggestion is that it will happen anyway. Through an iPad style device, through a flawless iApp type experience is how software will be sold. If you look at the NAMM figures for sales http://www.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/namm/2009musicusa/#/4 fretted instruments sell three times more than computer based products and considering that a computer based person would buy lots of things and an instrument based person just a couple then the difference in potential users if you were to tap into that market is huge. Maybe it wouldnt be Cubase, maybe it would be something else, but the potential is there with the right delivery system to bypass the computer and reach non-techy people - that's what the iphone and ipad has done - the Mac isnt bad at and but the PC really struggles with it beyond surfing and email.

Modular products - that is interesting. You could have difference devices running on different... devices, and have them all networked together. Rather than spending a grand on a roland synth, i buy the Roland "device" onto which i can add whatever sounds or synthesis i need at the time.... i dunno, just musing

I just dont think things will stay as they are, i believe the model is changing and the days of high priced software are numbered (possibly a long number - who knows). That may have an impact on revenue so i hope that software houses are already working how that's going to work out. Insisting that it's not going to happen didn't turn out well for the music industry. All we need is GooglePhoto and GoogleMusic and it's game over

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PC-Music.com hints, tips & reviews
Rain Computers UK - Creative Audio PC's

Quote robinv:

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Quote onesecondglance:

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software - it's a different programming language. that's it.

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No, not really. I can't pickup my 24" LCD screen and pretend to drink a pint of guinness with it, i can't rock my keyboard from side to side in order to move items on the screen, i can't bump my tower into another computer in order to exchange a file. It's not just "software" - the software in my washing machine isn't the same as the software in my car - it's all just "software" but it's very different, how it's being used, how it's being sold, what it enables you to do, taking advantage of unique hardware functionality that's no very portable to other platforms - lots and lots of differences.

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no, i disagree. it's exactly the same software - there are microwaves and washing machines running on Android, after all. the hardware might have been unusual at the time of the original iPhone - no longer - but that's not what made the app store a success.

all the gestures, touchscreens, accelerometers, and associated other stuff - it's all just different control mechanisms. excellent stuff, too. different from keyboard and mouse. but music tech has had different control mechanisms for ages. MIDI keyboards. control surfaces with faders, potentiometers, rotary encoders. it's just methods of getting information into your device. the control mechanisms aren't what's special about the app store market model. the low-on-features, high-on-gloss, does-one-thing-but-does-it-really-well approach combined with low unit pricing is what's special about it.

good software will always take advantage of the hardware and control options available - just like the apps on your iPad / iPhone / competing tablet or touchscreen phone do. apps existed before those things and made best use of the control options they had (like phone keypads, etc.)

will future devices change form factor? almost certainly. will future applications take advantage of different control systems? count on it. will either of these two things have a direct effect on pricing of applications? not as much as you might think.

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hourglass | random thoughts | doubledotdash!? collective

Quote onesecondglance:

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no, i disagree. it's exactly the same software - there are microwaves and washing machines running on Android, after all.

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Although factually true - it IS just software, it's like saying we're the same because we're both made of carbon. Our experience of software, in the application of it, is vastly different and surely that's what software is about - in the using, not in the coding, in what it does rather than what it's made of. So for me, with something like the iPad and associated apps something different has occurred - something that didn't exist now exists and at this time it appears good and powerful and persuasive - but yes, it's all just software

Quote onesecondglance:

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the low-on-features, high-on-gloss, does-one-thing-but-does-it-really-well approach combined with low unit pricing is what's special about it.

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I would agree if it was all fart jokes and cool little apps for identifying music or telling you where the nearest curry house is. I keep coming back to the Amplitube app. It has more features than the regular software Amplitube Live and is £90 cheaper. I don't have any figures but going by the coverage the iRig has received i imagine it will sell quite a few units - partly because of the uniqueness of the ipad/iphone and partly due to price point - you get the whole lot for the price of an Xbox game.

Quote onesecondglance:

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will either of these two things have a direct effect on pricing of applications? not as much as you might think.

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Well, i feel that IK have proved otherwise, or are at least having a go. But it's early days, the iPad is underpowered, underconnected and mono-tasking. As better devices come along maybe better, more fully fledged apps will too. Who knows.

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PC-Music.com hints, tips & reviews
Rain Computers UK - Creative Audio PC's

Quote robinv:

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I keep coming back to the Amplitube app. It has more features than the regular software Amplitube Live and is £90 cheaper.

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Amplitube Live is a cut-down version of the 'regular' Amplitube. And that is only one part of the X-Gear suite, with Ampeg SVX, Amplitube Jimi Hendrix, Amplitube Fender... etc etc. It is still great value, and better value than Amplitube Live, but it's misleading to say that it is more fully featured than the full retail version of Amplitube.

Quote robinv:

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I don't have any figures but going by the coverage the iRig has received i imagine it will sell quite a few units - partly because of the uniqueness of the ipad/iphone and partly due to price point - you get the whole lot for the price of an Xbox game.

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Well, as I've pointed out before, the market for guitarists is considerably larger than the market for DAW users. And bear in mind also that IK have been first to market with what is quite a mature product. That alone will guarantee them many sales. Would there be as many sales if every other amp sim manufacturer went the same way? Maybe, maybe not - it's too early to say. But I'd hazard a guess that the manufacturers' market share on iPad apps would be similar in terms of ratio to that on Mac/PC. Bear in mind also that there are far better products in development which require more processing power than an iAnything or AnythingDroid can currently offer.

Quote Mixedup:

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Amplitube Live is a cut-down version of the 'regular' Amplitube. And that is only one part of the X-Gear suite, with Ampeg SVX, Amplitube Jimi Hendrix, Amplitube Fender... etc etc. It is still great value, and better value than Amplitube Live, but it's misleading to say that it is more fully featured than the full retail version of Amplitube.

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I am obviously going out of my mind I've never mentioned the full retail Amplitube. Let me try to be as clear as i can before we all die from exhaustion.
From the IK website:
Amplitube for iPad -
• 11 Stomps
• 5 Amps
• 5 Cabinets
• 2 Microphones
• Tuner/Metronome
$19.99

Amplitube 2 Live (which is the only version i've been referring to):
• 3 Guitar and Bass Amp Models
• 5 Cabinets
• 9 Stomp models, plus Spring Reverb and Gate
• 2 Microphone models with selection/position controls
• Built-in Tuner
$99.99

The iPad version has more amps and more stomps which for my little brain makes me think it has "more" than Amp Live but is $80 cheaper (my pricing has been a little random i admit). What it does lack is MIDI control and integration into a larger system but that's due to limits in the hardware it's running on. I'm sure IK consider them to be of equal value but perhaps the low price is forced because of the nature of the app economic model - to be viable as an app it has to be low cost. It's interesting to see how well this works out for IK - whether that greater coverage, larger market results in them making as much or more money that they do selling similar products for more to regular computer users. If it is a success then, i'm suggesting, that this may well have an impact on the way software is priced and delivered in the future. I'm happy to accept that it may have no impact whatsoever but that's far less interesting to talk about.

I'm honestly not trying to mislead anyone - i've got no vested interest, i'm a bit mystified as to why everyone seems to think i'm talking nonsense. I just wanted to chat about the possibilities. It's as if i'm a liberal who has accidentally walked into a conservative pub and started an innocent chat about welfare.

Quote Mixedup:

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Bear in mind also that there are far better products in development which require more processing power than an iAnything or AnythingDroid can currently offer.

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Sure, far better products already exist on normal computers - we know this - the iPad is not the answer, it simply points the way forward. I'm also interested to see interesting things only available on the iPad - like the TC polytune and Reactable - they seem really really, very very fabulously good - not toys as such. I'd like to see those on regular computers but perhaps the attraction of the closed system and huge user base isn't there on regular computers. So what about the future?

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PC-Music.com hints, tips & reviews
Rain Computers UK - Creative Audio PC's

see, even with all those options, i'd still say the iRig app only does one thing - it takes an incoming audio signal, applies processing, and outputs the processed signal in near realtime. it does it really well (according to your experience, i can't say i've had the pleasure yet) but it's just one thing.

going back to the Cubase example, Cubase has to be able to do that. it also has to be able to record the incoming audio signal. record and playback MIDI. playback multiple audio and / or MIDI streams. allow editing of those streams, in multiple different visual types (score editing, wave editing, list editing, etc. etc.). keep an edit history and allow undoing. allow saving of not just individual track or FX settings but also entire projects. allow automation of various parameters per track. maintain a timebase for the whole project. allow and manage changes to that timebase. allow looping between markers on that timebase.

it also does a helluva lot more, but without even just one of those things above people would be complaining that it's a crippled program.

like i said though, i don't think there's any inherent difference between, to re-use your example, iRig on an iPhone and a standalone instance of Amplitube on a PC in terms of architecture. it's all very similar software wise. sure, the control mechanism is different for iRig but that's not why it costs a tenth of the price. they can do that because of the reduced feature set and the fact that it's a port of pre-existing code, so the development costs aren't as much as writing it from scratch.



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hourglass | random thoughts | doubledotdash!? collective

Quote robinv:

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I'm honestly not trying to mislead anyone - i've got no vested interest, i'm a bit mystified as to why everyone seems to think i'm talking nonsense. I just wanted to chat about the possibilities. It's as if i'm a liberal who has accidentally walked into a conservative pub and started an innocent chat about welfare.

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i hope i've not come across as dismissing your arguments out of hand - i just see things a bit differently. i've found the discussion quite fun and i hope you have too

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hourglass | random thoughts | doubledotdash!? collective

Aye same here, it's been a good debate and I do see where your coming from Robin, it's just that I also think the's too many factors in the way short term for a lot of what you proposed in the inital post to happen. Mid to long term as portable processing power happens and the markets become more organized it could all well fall into place but who knows what else will happen to music software between now and then.

Anyhow it's Friday so let's have some OT action to lighten the mood.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDrqBYkco-Y

If you can do all this on one of those, then roll on the dual core atoms

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ScanProAudio & 3XS Audio Systems
ScanProAudio Blog

Likewise, I'm not trying to be dismissive... just disagreeing with some of your conclusions! Always the way when you're speculating on what may happen in the future!

Look to me like Amplitube Live and iRig version are very different. The automation, MIDI and integration into other things is well worth the extra cost to me.

But I still agree that the iRig version is very good value for money, and that they can afford to do that.

As for DAWs, whether or not the mobile device versions will appeal, you may have something right about the retail price. When products like Reaper come along with an aggressive pricing model, and latterly a product like Zynewave Podium at $50, it does make you think that either the functionality/quality will have to rise in the market leaders, or that prices will need to fall if they're to remain competitive. Zynewave certainly appear to be going for the pricing model you're advocating — so let's all hold our breath and see how well it works!

(sniff) i love you guys.

Cubase 64 - what happened to the 10 minutes of blank loading screen followed by the thunk of the tape machine reaching the end of the cassette after having completely failed to load anything?

Cool - i didnt want you all to think i was being deliberately annoying

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PC-Music.com hints, tips & reviews
Rain Computers UK - Creative Audio PC's

Quote robinv:

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Cubase 64 - what happened to the 10 minutes of blank loading screen followed by the thunk of the tape machine reaching the end of the cassette after having completely failed to load anything?

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That's why the bar is there at demoscene parties

Quote:

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Cool - i didnt want you all to think i was being deliberately annoying

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Of course not. Just some friendly banter

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ScanProAudio & 3XS Audio Systems
ScanProAudio Blog

Quote robinv:

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Cubase 64 - what happened to the 10 minutes of blank loading screen followed by the thunk of the tape machine reaching the end of the cassette after having completely failed to load anything?

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Ah, that takes me back. Loading 'The Hobbit' from cassette on a Commodore 64 for 20 minutes and praying no-one downstairs would switch a light on during the load...

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An Eagle for an Emperor, A Kestrel for a Knave.

"You are sat by a campfire, exits are north and west"

"Time Passes"

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ScanProAudio & 3XS Audio Systems
ScanProAudio Blog

Quote Pete Kaine:

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"You are sat by a campfire, exits are north and west"

"Time Passes"

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The immortal words "say to Thorin carry me" lay undiscovered as i languished in a dungeon for years and years and years... i hate that dwarf.

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PC-Music.com hints, tips & reviews
Rain Computers UK - Creative Audio PC's

Quote Pete Kaine:

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"You are sat by a campfire, exits are north and west"

"Time Passes"

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LOOK E

You see nothing of interest.

WALK E

You have died in a rockslide. Retry? (Y/N)

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hourglass | random thoughts | doubledotdash!? collective

So does anyone know if I can get 'Colossal Adventure' for iPhone ('cos I'm intending to get one in the New Year)?

"The dwarf disappears in a puff of greasy black smoke"

That's MY kind of 'app'.

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An Eagle for an Emperor, A Kestrel for a Knave.

Quote onesecondglance:

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Quote Pete Kaine:

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"You are sat by a campfire, exits are north and west"

"Time Passes"

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LOOK E

You see nothing of interest.

WALK E

You have died in a rockslide. Retry? (Y/N)

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I think was about as far as I ever got in that game

Anyway one punt round google later and alas, typing "Greasy Drawf" into it was nowhere near as entertaining as I assumed it would be.

Sod this... I'm off for a game of Minecraft.

Quote robinv:

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Quote onesecondglance:

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no, i disagree. it's exactly the same software - there are microwaves and washing machines running on Android, after all.

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Although factually true - it IS just software, it's like saying we're the same because we're both made of carbon. Our experience of software, in the application of it, is vastly different and surely that's what software is about - in the using, not in the coding, in what it does rather than what it's made of. So for me, with something like the iPad and associated apps something different has occurred - something that didn't exist now exists and at this time it appears good and powerful and persuasive - but yes, it's all just software

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Apple's genius is the application of technology to usability, which always seems to confuse very geeky specification-obsessed commentators but is otherwise extremely successful.

The whole idea of the traditional PC with mouse and keyboard may be coming to an end. An ipad does browsing, email, chat and flicking through photos much better than a top of the range PC, yet its much cheaper and you can carry it on the tube. And these are the things that most users do most of the time.

Cubase is quite a fiddly application with its myriad of windows and obscure quirks, some a hangover from the Atari ST days. For a teenager recording some guitar, it would much easier to use an ipad (give it a few generations), a small interface and a garage band app.

With bluetooth to access your keyboard/mouse and a hdmi port to plug into your big screen tv/monitor, the iPad could completely replace a separate desktop or laptop. In a few years time PCs could become a very niche product.

I agree and disagree with some of that Johnny althrough perhaps only the time frame specified rather than the final destination. After all Star Trek has already promised us an Ipad solution for all of our enviromental scanning requirements at some point

This relevent bit of news fluff cropped up this afternoon through and is worth a glance: http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/1745981/tablets-doing-expected

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ScanProAudio & 3XS Audio Systems
ScanProAudio Blog

Funny... I always thought Apple's genius was three-fold:

1. Selling products whose applications must be bought from a closed, controlled market. eg iPod/iTunes; iPhone/AppStore...
2. Getting away with a frankly shockingly high mark up (see next to last para of this article) on sweat-shop goods.
3. Hardware design. Say what you like about Apple, their products do usually look better designed than the competition.

I do expect laptops to disappear in favour of tablets as the prices come down, as implied by that register article. But in reality, they'll still be there... once you've added the wireless keyboard you need it's essentially the same thing.

Quote Mixedup:

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Funny... I always thought Apple's genius was three-fold:

1. Selling products whose applications must be bought from a closed, controlled market. eg iPod/iTunes; iPhone/AppStore...

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Indeed. They take an established idea (mp3 player / store) centralise it and lock in the process from start to finish, and then market it to people who didn't know or care that the original idea already existed.

Quote:

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2. Getting away with a frankly shockingly high mark up (see next to last para of this article) on sweat-shop goods.

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The working conditions there are pretty average for the region and Foxconn paid more than 90% of the employers in that sector, in that region before all that went to [ ****** ] and now they pay 150% of the average to every worker. Also the suicide rate was something like a 3% average in a country where the national average suicide rate is something like 15%!

The are far, far worse offenders than Foxconn/Apple out there let me assure you. The only thing that made that story news worthy was the fact it was Apple, and the fact that the western world don't know or give a toss about where it's products come from. If you really have a beef with them, after reading that article then I'm afraid your going to have to throw away 90% of all your electronic goods right now!

Quote:

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3. Hardware design. Say what you like about Apple, their products do usually look better designed than the competition.

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"Look"

Indeed. See point one.

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ScanProAudio & 3XS Audio Systems
ScanProAudio Blog

Quote robinv:

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That's an interesting question and something i'd like to investigate - because you can move multiple faders with MIDI, so it's not as if Cubase can only do one thing at a time - but i get what you say about the implementation of the mouse - seriously needs to be tried out
Glovepie - you know i actually own a P5 glove

The iPad apparently supports 11 touches.

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I'm trying to get my head round what 11th control appendage they had in mind when deciding on this figure - and should they have called it the iTap - this one goes up to 11

Quote Pete Kaine:

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If you really have a beef with them, after reading that article then I'm afraid your going to have to throw away 90% of all your electronic goods right now!

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No, I have a fair idea of how all that stuff works! None of it's pretty. But I didn't advocate abandoning all that stuff. Merely pointed out what makes Apple successful.

Fact remains that the factory that makes the Apple stuff (and much more besides) isn't great. To say conditions are good there is like saying that Peter Sutcliffe isn't a bad bloke when you compare him with Hitler.

Anyhoos... I reckon we're headed a wee bit off topic here!

Quote Pete Kaine:

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Quote Mixedup:

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Funny... I always thought Apple's genius was three-fold:

1. Selling products whose applications must be bought from a closed, controlled market. eg iPod/iTunes; iPhone/AppStore...

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Indeed. They take an established idea (mp3 player / store) centralise it and lock in the process from start to finish, and then market it to people who didn't know or care that the original idea already existed.

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And they are successful not just because of marketing. They are successful because they do it far, far better than anyone else. Did not microsoft and sony spend money on marketing their mp3 players?

Quote:

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2. Getting away with a frankly shockingly high mark up (see next to last para of this article) on sweat-shop goods.

Quote:

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The working conditions there are pretty average for the region and Foxconn paid more than 90% of the employers in that sector, in that region before all that went to [ ****** ] and now they pay 150% of the average to every worker. Also the suicide rate was something like a 3% average in a country where the national average suicide rate is something like 15%!

The are far, far worse offenders than Foxconn/Apple out there let me assure you. The only thing that made that story news worthy was the fact it was Apple, and the fact that the western world don't know or give a toss about where it's products come from. If you really have a beef with them, after reading that article then I'm afraid your going to have to throw away 90% of all your electronic goods right now!

---

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Agreed. This is not apple's problem at all. This is about international economics.

Quote:

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3. Hardware design. Say what you like about Apple, their products do usually look better designed than the competition.

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Always. Apple break new markets in a way nobody else at the moment seems to be able to do.

Quote marsnic:

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I'm trying to get my head round what 11th control appendage they had in mind when deciding on this figure

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Well they say porn drives any emerging entertainment market...

Quote johnny h:

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Quote Pete Kaine:

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Quote Mixedup:

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Funny... I always thought Apple's genius was three-fold:

1. Selling products whose applications must be bought from a closed, controlled market. eg iPod/iTunes; iPhone/AppStore...

---

Indeed. They take an established idea (mp3 player / store) centralise it and lock in the process from start to finish, and then market it to people who didn't know or care that the original idea already existed.

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And they are successful not just because of marketing. They are successful because they do it far, far better than anyone else. Did not microsoft and sony spend money on marketing their mp3 players?

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I don't think M.S ever did any mainstream advertising of Zune outside of the USA. I'm not even sure if it ever got a full product roll out?

Sony shot themselves in the foot I think by insisting on using Atrac well past the point of the market making it perfectly clear that they didn't

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ScanProAudio & 3XS Audio Systems
ScanProAudio Blog

Sony made some damn fine mp3 players back in the day, but like Pete said, sticking with ATRAC was a big mistake. a worse mistake was Connect Player / Sonicstage - their dreadful versions of iTunes. desperately bad software with great hardware.

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hourglass | random thoughts | doubledotdash!? collective

Quote johnny h:

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Indeed. They take an established idea (mp3 player / store) centralise it and lock in the process from start to finish, and then market it to people who didn't know or care that the original idea already existed...

And they are successful not just because of marketing. They are successful because they do it far, far better than anyone else. Did not microsoft and sony spend money on marketing their mp3 players?

---

IIRC, Apple stole the march by buying up supplies of the large microdrives, which gave the early iPods a much larger storage capacity than competing products. Well done them, very canny business. They also made a user friendly interface. That didn't make the product better than others in all respects, but it gave them a huge market share, which in turn gave them a platform for music download domination. I remember several other devices being technologically superior - you could record to them and do many other wonderful things. As others have said, other products failed for a variety of reasons - overdoing it on the protection, lack of co-ordinated marketing push, incompatability with the iTunes store etc etc. Not saying Apple didn't do well, but it's down to others' failure as much as Apple's success.

Much of it is due to thinking about the end to end process. They do that very well (maybe they could tackle the taxation system ). But they also lock the competition out, in a way that Microsoft tried to do and got its knuckles wrapped by US and EU courts for being anti-competitive. I imagine the same thing will happen as Apple grows - assuming of course that Google, HTC, Nokia, Microsoft etc don't eat heavily into Apple's market share in these 'new' markets.

Quote johnny h:

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Agreed. This is not apple's problem at all. This is about international economics.
[

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Nope. International economics isn't a law of physics! It's everyone's problem. Including Apple's. Including yours and mine.

Quote:

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Quote:

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3. Hardware design. Say what you like about Apple, their products do usually look better designed than the competition.

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Always. Apple break new markets in a way nobody else at the moment seems to be able to do.

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Erm.. that comment doesn't relate in any way to the text you quoted! You've already agreed that Apple shake up established markets, and now you're saying it's new markets they break into. I don't think I've seen *any* Apple product break into a *new* market... tablet PCs? Smartphones? MP3 players? Compressed audio downloads? etc etc. They were all established markets.

Quote onesecondglance:

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Sonicstage - their dreadful versions of iTunes.

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God I have bad memories of that! It even wanted to restrict the amount of times I could copy material I'd recorded onto my HiMD via a mic! As I said, the failure of the competition was a major factor in Apple's success in this area.

Sony's love of proprietary formats has always served them poorly. Best Mp3 player I've had is a 4 year old Sony 3000 which is now a brick due to connect being killer off. Still got a minidisk too so all I need is a betamax to complete the collection!

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ScanProAudio & 3XS Audio Systems
ScanProAudio Blog

Quote Mixedup:

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Much of it is due to thinking about the end to end process. They do that very well

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I think this is the key issue. Generally people dont really care about specifications or the hardware behind the product, they just want something which does what they want it to do and look great at the same time. This is what Apple seems to do very well and few others can match.

Quote:

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Quote:

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Always. Apple break new markets in a way nobody else at the moment seems to be able to do.

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Erm.. that comment doesn't relate in any way to the text you quoted! You've already agreed that Apple shake up established markets, and now you're saying it's new markets they break into. I don't think I've seen *any* Apple product break into a *new* market... tablet PCs? Smartphones? MP3 players? Compressed audio downloads? etc etc. They were all established markets.

---

Tablet PCs? Was there really a market for that before the iPad? Yes there were attempts on breaking the market, but they were absolute failures. Mp3 players, yes, there were mp3 players before the ipod, but they were fiddly to use, were very bulky and didn't look desirable to non-geeks.

As for iTunes, it only exists in the market if it has a huge user base. While paid mp3 downloads did exist in theory before iTunes, they were not successful. I mean, anyone can set up a paypal account and offer mp3s for sale, but without customers you can't say you have any meaningful impact on the market.

Rereading the above it does seem i'm a bit of an apple evangelist, but I'm really not. It annoys me that no other company can compete with its design and usability. I personally hope that paid downloads succeed and that PCs/google will fall into the 2nd class digital world of spam links and viruses. Then we can move of from an era where intellectual property rights are not respected by the general public and the creative industries can recover.

Quote johnny h:

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Tablet PCs? Was there really a market for that before the iPad? Yes there were attempts on breaking the market, but they were absolute failures.

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Talk about being ahead of the curve...

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ScanProAudio & 3XS Audio Systems
ScanProAudio Blog

Quote Pete Kaine:

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Quote johnny h:

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Tablet PCs? Was there really a market for that before the iPad? Yes there were attempts on breaking the market, but they were absolute failures.

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Talk about being ahead of the curve...

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Usability and style always wins over specifications. In the last 7 years i've never seen anyone using a tablet PC on the tube. Unless you want to count the iPad as a tablet PC...

Quote johnny h:

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Usability and style always wins over specifications. In the last 7 years i've never seen anyone using a tablet PC on the tube. Unless you want to count the iPad as a tablet PC...

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I was backing up your previous statement about their ability to market it.

I've a Dell AXIM of the same vintage/spec as that HP which i've been using for the past 5 years as a media player, browser on the move prior to getting a smart phone, which outside of music apps is all I'd imagine I'd use a Ipad for.

I read a great story about a month after it launched in regards to the tech reviewer over at the new york times. He's an established Apple fan boy and was sent one pre-launch in order to give it some press. He gushed and gushed about it when launched and then a month later another writer questioned him about it when he noticed that the first reviewer had ebay'd it.

The response: Well it's nice and all but I really can't find a use for it that my Macbook doesn't do better.

And that's always been the problem with tablets. They are great in certain situations but they still lack the functionality of a decent small laptop. All Apple has tried to do is convince everyone otherwise from this fact... and the Inquirer artical I posted above pretty much paints the same picture.

I'm a geek and I can't see what the point of a tablet is currently other than a media player / portable net browser and in all honesty my phone just as good a job as both those things as the ipad/droid tablets and is a hell of a lot more portable to boot.

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ScanProAudio & 3XS Audio Systems
ScanProAudio Blog

Apologies if this point has already been raised, but I kinda skim read da thread.

One point many seem to be making is that applications for the desktop that were hundreds of pounds are tiny fractions of the price as 'apps' on small devices.

I might argue in another direction. Cool applications and games on websites made in flash or Java or other such clever web-based coding that were free are now infinitely more expensive as paid-for 'apps' on small devices.

Look at something like Angry Birds. It is fun an all, but there were games like this that were totally free on web pages years ago.

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http://www.jeremycorbett.co.uk

Quote Pete Kaine:

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I'm a geek and I can't see what the point of a tablet is currently other than a media player / portable net browser and in all honesty my phone just as good a job as both those things as the ipad/droid tablets and is a hell of a lot more portable to boot.

---

... and it's also a phone, which helps. iPads n'all are basically just a big version of the iPod touch - cute to use, nice to curl up on the sofa with and do a spot of surfing or flick through a few photos, but that's about it.

Which a whole lot of people buy a laptop for, never really doing anything else with them - and that's the (pretty big) market Apple et al are going for.

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http://anotherfineday.bandcamp.com/ http://anotherfineday.co.uk http://apollomusic.co.uk

Quote tomafd:

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Which a whole lot of people buy a laptop for, never really doing anything else with them - and that's the (pretty big) market Apple et al are going for.

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That's the part I don't agree with.

We agree that it's useless as a main p.c?

This thing is £400+

If you've a family household you've either got a main PC for everyone or perhaps a main one and an old one for the kids.

However if you haven't and the kids ask for one which are you going to go for.... the one with a keyboard which is £250 (netbook/cheap laptop) that you can acturly do school work on or the Ipad at twice the price?

Whilst your right in your statement I can't help but consider that this is still a purely middleclass or trendy media type device, as far as I can see the market being for it. If it's just for browsing then you can get a phone on a contract for next to nothing that will do the job and is indeed a phone. If it was a few hundred quid cheaper, I'd see it as a more mainstream device through and maybe once the overall hype settles it'll drift in this direction... with the influx of cheap droid tablets incoming through it may wish to think about it quickly!

Perhaps we should have had a poll on this thread asking just how many people have rushed out and bought one, and indeed just what the hell they are using them for!

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ScanProAudio & 3XS Audio Systems
ScanProAudio Blog

Quote Mahoobley:

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I might argue in another direction. Cool applications and games on websites made in flash or Java or other such clever web-based coding that were free are now infinitely more expensive as paid-for 'apps' on small devices.

Look at something like Angry Birds. It is fun an all, but there were games like this that were totally free on web pages years ago.

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not the best example - totally free on Android and only 59p on iOS (iirc it's free on Symbian too). i get your general drift though.

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hourglass | random thoughts | doubledotdash!? collective

Quote onesecondglance:

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Quote Mahoobley:

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I might argue in another direction. Cool applications and games on websites made in flash or Java or other such clever web-based coding that were free are now infinitely more expensive as paid-for 'apps' on small devices.

Look at something like Angry Birds. It is fun an all, but there were games like this that were totally free on web pages years ago.

---

not the best example - totally free on Android and only 59p on iOS (iirc it's free on Symbian too). i get your general drift though.

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It's FREE?!? I got the beta and assumed that was a demo and the full version was paid. Downloading on my HTC Desire now!

But yes, bad example, but you get my drift

And thanks for the heads up!

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http://www.jeremycorbett.co.uk

i have wasted so many hours on it since getting it on the weekend... it's like downloadable crack

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hourglass | random thoughts | doubledotdash!? collective

> An ipad does browsing, email, chat and flicking through photos much better than a top of the range PC

But they don´t Johnny! They aint got a keyboard for one, and the people I know have an mp3 player open somewhere on the screen, emails open somewhere, chat open somewhere all at the same time, while using a KEYBOARD to chat.

Anyway had this conversation before, but I don´t understand how anyone can say it´s better at those things than a PC with keyboard.

Quote Dishpan:

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> An ipad does browsing, email, chat and flicking through photos much better than a top of the range PC

But they don´t Johnny! They aint got a keyboard for one, and the people I know have an mp3 player open somewhere on the screen, emails open somewhere, chat open somewhere all at the same time, while using a KEYBOARD to chat.

Anyway had this conversation before, but I don´t understand how anyone can say it´s better at those things than a PC with keyboard.

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...or a PC with a keyboard *and* a multi-touch screen. They do exist! I'm also tending towards the conclusion that I don't like to have to put my hand/fingers over the screen and obscure my view every time I want the machine to do something... keyboards, mice, trackpads, remotes etc. are very handy in this respect!

Quote Mixedup:

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Quote Dishpan:

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> An ipad does browsing, email, chat and flicking through photos much better than a top of the range PC

But they don´t Johnny! They aint got a keyboard for one, and the people I know have an mp3 player open somewhere on the screen, emails open somewhere, chat open somewhere all at the same time, while using a KEYBOARD to chat.

Anyway had this conversation before, but I don´t understand how anyone can say it´s better at those things than a PC with keyboard.

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...or a PC with a keyboard *and* a multi-touch screen. They do exist! I'm also tending towards the conclusion that I don't like to have to put my hand/fingers over the screen and obscure my view every time I want the machine to do something... keyboards, mice, trackpads, remotes etc. are very handy in this respect!

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Absolutely. I think touch screen has two fundamental drawbacks preventing it from ever being the sole means of input

1) Your finger gets in the way of what's on the screen
2) There's no tactile feedback, you can't feel a virtual button

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Original artwork and unique devices inspired by vintage technology http://www.thisisobsolete.com

Quote Dishpan:

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Anyway had this conversation before, but I don´t understand how anyone can say it´s better at those things than a PC with keyboard.

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It's different. The key to the iPad (for me) is that it's not a computer - it's a media consumption device. Computers are still a huge barrier to some people, they dont do anything unless you tell it to and find the software to accomplish it. The iPad just dishes it out, allows you to consume books, music, pictures, humour and webpages without effort. Very few people (i imagine) buy a computer to do some "computing". That said i agree that most families are going to have a PC running 10 things at once rather than individual ipads for each member..... blah

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PC-Music.com hints, tips & reviews
Rain Computers UK - Creative Audio PC's

Quote Mahoobley:

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But yes, bad example, but you get my drift

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I think that's something good. Shareware doesnt really work any more as a model for a relaxed and groovy web experience - i think those days are gone. I love finding cool little bits of free software to accomplish a task, but i also wouldnt mind spending a couple of quid on something if it was easy and instant like the App store is. If i have to pull out my plastic or log into Paypal and fill out forms then i cant be bothered. But if it was instant and easy then i dont begrudge sending a few pennies to the creator of the useful app - that, for me, makes the creation of cool apps more inviting, it rewards good coding etc etc. What annoys me is a seemingly good bit of shareware that i register for the extra functionality for say $30 only to find out it's not as good as i thought - that puts me off.

This sort of comes back to my point about "apps" and the cheap pricing model being the future of software, both simple and complex - works for me

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Quote robinv:

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I love finding cool little bits of free software to accomplish a task, but i also wouldnt mind spending a couple of quid on something if it was easy and instant like the App store is. If i have to pull out my plastic or log into Paypal and fill out forms then i cant be bothered.

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How's that Winrar evaluation going?

Quote:

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But if it was instant and easy then i dont begrudge sending a few pennies to the creator of the useful app - that, for me, makes the creation of cool apps more inviting, it rewards good coding etc etc. What annoys me is a seemingly good bit of shareware that i register for the extra functionality for say $30 only to find out it's not as good as i thought - that puts me off.

This sort of comes back to my point about "apps" and the cheap pricing model being the future of software, both simple and complex - works for me

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And that sort of comes back to my point about the product stores on each platform. Apples sucess in bringing in developers to the fourth largest mobile O.S. platform has been in large down to just how well they handle the payment side of things. I think a lot of people (on evidence of that) share your outlook on it all as far as being more willing to reward work on smaller apps with pocket change, and I don't contest it for second. The real question here (for me at least) is can the guys with the 3 largest platforms ever sort out the payment processes on their own platforms to make it viable.

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Quote Pete Kaine:

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The real question here (for me at least) is can the guys with the 3 largest platforms ever sort out the payment processes on their own platforms to make it viable.

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Well, once Steve Jobs is emperor of the known universe we won't have to worry about it any more.

Is it all down to security?
I mean if you or I steal an iPad can you buy apps to your hearts content with someone else's payment details? Is there any barrier at all between the app and the purchase?

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You'd have to ask a developer about that one.

Everyone I've spoken too about it in the past from that side of things is quite complimentary about Apple's organization and payment process from the developer side of getting it out there and getting paid for it... well once they get through the rather skewed quality control'd submission process.

Android at least seems to be a bit more convoluted from what I understand, but then I'm not a developer. From a punters point of view I don't think the is any real difference in either method currently. One has to note is that the is no real controlled submission process on the other 3 platforms, and thus the amount of garbage you have to shift through to find anything of use on the Droid platform, means that a lot of people just don't bother ( I know I gave up on day 3) and that may also have a lot to do with it.

Another thing with Apple is that your target market for Apple is none technical. These are the people who see something for 1.99 and think "ooooh, I like that, I'll must buy it". I can't help but think that a lot of Android users are a little more technical and more likely to go and try and hunt down a free one instead rather than on the spot impulse buy... maybe.

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ScanProAudio & 3XS Audio Systems
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Quote Pete Kaine:

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Another thing with Apple is that your target market for Apple is none technical. These are the people who see something for 1.99 and think "ooooh, I like that, I'll must buy it". I can't help but think that a lot of Android users are a little more technical and more likely to go and try and hunt down a free one instead rather than on the spot impulse buy... maybe.

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Doesn't that bring us down to the old "if you want to be creative get a Mac - if you want to be a technician buy a PC" sort of rhetoric that i've been battling against my whole working life? I know many people see it as a good thing that a PC is a bit more technical, gets your hands dirty, but i would rather that we were released from all that and can get on with using the software and do the things we want to do - i guess the ipad does that for people who only want what it offers.

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Quote Dishpan:

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> An ipad does browsing, email, chat and flicking through photos much better than a top of the range PC

But they don´t Johnny! They aint got a keyboard for one, and the people I know have an mp3 player open somewhere on the screen, emails open somewhere, chat open somewhere all at the same time, while using a KEYBOARD to chat.

Anyway had this conversation before, but I don´t understand how anyone can say it´s better at those things than a PC with keyboard.

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You can get a keyboard for it actually.

A PC is in one place, and needs a desk. Yes you can get a laptop, which is great. But does everybody need this?

Imagine you have a desktop PC. Why do you need another full blown computer system? For hanging around the lounge and kitchen and taking on the tube, an iPad makes more sense - cheaper, lighter and looks better than a laptop. And you can use it as a large touch screen controller.

Quote robinv:

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Doesn't that bring us down to the old "if you want to be creative get a Mac - if you want to be a technician buy a PC" sort of rhetoric that i've been battling against my whole working life? I know many people see it as a good thing that a PC is a bit more technical, gets your hands dirty, but i would rather that we were released from all that and can get on with using the software and do the things we want to do - i guess the ipad does that for people who only want what it offers.

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I'm not saying that, that is in any way a bad thing either way. Apple goes out of it's way to make it easy which is the reason it is a sucess. All I ment to imply was that your average Apple user would see a cheap cool app and may snap it up, where your P.C. user might think "I wonder if the is an open source version that is cheaper/free".

The Apple hardware is locked down enough that it's hard to run "dodgy" software on it unless you jailbreak it and void the warranty, where the Droid/Windows platforms are open source or not as restrictive and you can run whatever you wish, how you wish. Yet another reason developers would rather write for the Apple hardware over anything else I suspect.

Which is fine. Except it leaves 70%+ of the market uncatered for, and if (just if) Steve Jobs fails to take over the world it leaves this whole new marketplace in precarious position.

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ScanProAudio & 3XS Audio Systems
ScanProAudio Blog

Quote Pete Kaine:

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Quote robinv:

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Doesn't that bring us down to the old "if you want to be creative get a Mac - if you want to be a technician buy a PC" sort of rhetoric that i've been battling against my whole working life? I know many people see it as a good thing that a PC is a bit more technical, gets your hands dirty, but i would rather that we were released from all that and can get on with using the software and do the things we want to do - i guess the ipad does that for people who only want what it offers.

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I'm not saying that, that is in any way a bad thing either way. Apple goes out of it's way to make it easy which is the reason it is a sucess. All I ment to imply was that your average Apple user would see a cheap cool app and may snap it up, where your P.C. user might think "I wonder if the is an open source version that is cheaper/free".

The Apple hardware is locked down enough that it's hard to run "dodgy" software on it unless you jailbreak it and void the warranty, where the Droid/Windows platforms are open source or not as restrictive and you can run whatever you wish, how you wish. Yet another reason developers would rather write for the Apple hardware over anything else I suspect.

Which is fine. Except it leaves 70%+ of the market uncatered for, and if (just if) Steve Jobs fails to take over the world it leaves this whole new marketplace in precarious position.

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Which potentially could lead to a digital class divide - wealthy apple users who use and pay for premium content, and 'free' users who have to trawl through cracks and spam links to find similar content without paying. In effect they are 'paying' for it through their time and inconvenience.

Quote johnny h:

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Which potentially could lead to a digital class divide - wealthy apple users who use and pay for premium content, and 'free' users who have to trawl through cracks and spam links to find similar content without paying. In effect they are 'paying' for it through their time and inconvenience.

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Ah, as always it all comes down to a tax on the poor - shame on the bourgeois Apple caste. Time to take to the streets comrade.

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Quote Pete Kaine:

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The Apple hardware is locked down enough that it's hard to run "dodgy" software on it unless you jailbreak it and void the warranty, where the Droid/Windows platforms are open source or not as restrictive and you can run whatever you wish, how you wish. Yet another reason developers would rather write for the Apple hardware over anything else I suspect.

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Yeah, totally. It's always been the pro/con of the PC - there are no other appliances with which you can fiddle, improve and break as easily. Run what you like - there are consequences (as i know all too well from my tragic hard disk wiping of 2000); Run what they allow you to run - there are consequences

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Just found this link.

Very, very relivent to this thread discussion I think.

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2010/10/former-music-label-boss-be at-piracy-by-selling-albums-for-1.ars?comments=1#comments-bar

*edit* Just realised this is in a thread already in the Music Business Subforum. Applogises if you've already seen it.

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ScanProAudio & 3XS Audio Systems
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Edited by Pete Kaine (20/10/10 09:29 AM)

Sooooooo...... Amplitude 2 is now on the iPad with even more features at a third of the price of Amplitude Live on the PC. Plus IK has released an iPad clip for a mic stand making it a gig-able piece of hardware. Waiting on a wireless footswitch and wah pedal

Now that the iPad has MIDI, does that change the playing field? Evolution from toy to tool?

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One App does not a platform make

I don't think anyone was dismissing it as being able to function as a tool. I think we were just questioning your inital premise that it would be a game changer on a grand scale.

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ScanProAudio & 3XS Audio Systems
ScanProAudio Blog

Quote Pete Kaine:

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I think we were just questioning your inital premise that it would be a game changer on a grand scale.

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If only you had eyes to see.

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Quote robinv:

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If only you had eyes to see.

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I'll make a note on my Newton to bring up this thread again in a couple of years.



Acturly going back to my very first response, I've no doubt that this form factor will become more wide spread in the future once the processing abilitys of the units go up a bit more. As a one purpose device as amplitude proves it's a capable unit in it's current guise but you still can't write a tune on it.

No doubt that will change but we could be looking at half a decade or more before it's remotely viable.

But I still stand by my comments that a firm couldn't afford to develop a peice of software like cubase and hope to recoop the money by charging less than £10 a copy for it.

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ScanProAudio & 3XS Audio Systems
ScanProAudio Blog

Quote Pete Kaine:

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Quote robinv:

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If only you had eyes to see.

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I'll make a note on my Newton to bring up this thread again in a couple of years.



Acturly going back to my very first response, I've no doubt that this form factor will become more wide spread in the future once the processing abilitys of the units go up a bit more. As a one purpose device as amplitude proves it's a capable unit in it's current guise but you still can't write a tune on it.

No doubt that will change but we could be looking at half a decade or more before it's remotely viable.

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Way before that

Quote:

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But I still stand by my comments that a firm couldn't afford to develop a peice of software like cubase and hope to recoop the money by charging less than £10 a copy for it.

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As for selling complicated DAWs for £10, no its probably not the way to go. The real revolution is in how we interact with computers and its happening right now. Think of the iPhone, iPad, Microsoft Kinect, PS3 Move etc. The mouse is a pretty rubbish input device in many respects and its days are numbered.

Quote johnny h:

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The mouse is a pretty rubbish input device in many respects

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But the trackball isn't, never understood why they haven't taken off.

I hope we don't move to far towards the motion idea for interfacing or I'm going to get tired! Seriously for the task they meant a keyboard and trackball have not been bettered, and I see nothing coming up to take them on.

I think it's the same for mixing, a good fader which you can grab, move feel makes sense. Performance is another matter and then we are limited at the moment by our interfacing.

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