I've got a dozen sheets of poetries that I wrote long back when I started out with music production. Purpose was to incorporate music around them, but then they didnt turn up into songs as I had no clue how to shape music around them. Now few days back I got very enthusiastic and as looked into these lyrics I think they are not that bad to be ignored. Now for the first time in my life, I would like to build a few songs with lyrics. My problem is that I dont know the method of writing music for the lyrics. I looked on the web but to no success yet. So if anyone knows of a tutorial or literature or have any idea or suggestion for me then please help me.

Do you people write lyrics first or the music? I think it should be much more easier to make lyrics when a musical thought is already there in the head. Am I wrong?

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Edited by AuralSerenity (20/10/10 08:33 AM)

Can you sing your poetry?
Could anyone sing your poetry?

Writing lyric, we normally start by singing. Lyric needs a melody. Then, you can orchestrate or arrange as u will.

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Edited by Stan (20/10/10 08:42 AM)

Quote AuralSerenity:

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I've got a dozen sheets of poetries that I wrote long back when I started out with music production. Purpose was to incorporate music around them, but then they didnt turn up into songs as I had no clue how to shape music around them. Now few days back I got very enthusiastic and as looked into these lyrics I think they are not that bad to be ignored. Now for the first time in my life, I would like to build a few songs with lyrics. My problem is that I dont know the method of writing music for the lyrics. I looked on the web but to no success yet. So if anyone knows of a tutorial or literature or have any idea or suggestion for me then please help me.

Do you people write lyrics first or the music? I think it should be much more easier to make lyrics when a musical thought is already there in the head. Am I wrong?

---

What sort of music do you write? There's such a wide range, from the highly crafted melodies of Gershwin and Cole Porter to the "shout it out over a repeated loop" method of some current performers. And all of them can work :-)

Classic song lyrics tend to use remarkably few words, with lots of repetition. Poetry tends to be more complicated. You might find it helpful to locate the most "catchy" phrase in your poetry and build a song using just that, even if it's only 4 or 5 words. If your poetry doesn't HAVE a catchy phrase, maybe it isn't suited as a song lyric.

I'm with Stan on this. I recall seeing an interview with Mick Jagger a while back and his method of writing initially involves singing a melody without words. Once that has been established, it may start to suggest certain things including lyrics, mood etc.

I don't think there are any rules. I'm a pretty prolific songwriter and I'd say sometimes songs are driven from a melody invented with no lyrics but just as often a lyric appears from nowhere or from a life experience which inspires. Other times it is a rhythm, riff or chord progression which kicks off the creative process.

Clearly poetry put to music rarely makes good lyrics, but good lyrics are pretty much always poetic or "lyrical" at least.

If you want to use poetry as a base for lyrics the earlier advice is good, search for lines that have a certain impact, memorability or rhythm and harvest those. Good lyrics are almost always simple, which poetry is often not, by its nature.

My 2p anyway.

Thanks Stan, Wombat, Phil and Steve. I guess you guys are right. When I made those poetries, I think, they had more of meaningful thoughts than musicality to them. At least I'm not able to pick them in a sing-song tone. I think it would be much better if I build the lyrics along with the music and that ways I can edit them reedit them until both fit precisely.

Wombat, I dont know what sort of music do I write, if you mean the genre of it. This is the first time I'm trying to figure out songs with lyrics and earlier my style was close to downtempo and ambient. But I dont get much excitement when I ever think of baptizing my unique style. To me all the lyrics are complicated, until they comprise of ever continuous looping of a single word. But I'm not in the position to have my view upon the making of lyrics.

As far as words are concerned I'm more of a poet than a songwriter. And I think I'll have to transform if I'm ever wanting to be a lyric writer as well. But what confuses me here is how do most of those commercial collaborations get success when one has already written the lyrics and other turns them into music. How about 'Light my fire' by The Doors. There can be thousands of example but this one is an obvious as I'm listening to this right now.

Many thanks to you guys.

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With very few exceptions, lyrics are not poetry - it's quite a different discipline. Successful songs rely on repetition of hook lines so they stick in the memory easier. And they are less "arty".

Setting poems to music is a real challenge for any composer, even the most experienced. Andrew Lloyd Webber memorably (did you see what I did there?) achieved it with TS Eliot's poetry for "Cats". Elton John's been known to do it fairly well with some of the artier Bernie Taupin stuff (mostly a long time ago).

I'd start by looking for a more experienced partner if I were you.

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Thanks Steve. Elton John's example was a bit sad though. That's my disliking anyways.

Would you know of any software or a tool that may be an aid to me, an absolute beginner in the discipline?

I found this an hour ago and was a very interesting read.

I'm actually looking for some tutorial that may lay a systematic approach to achieve the ability of a lyricist, and would like to see if it works. Or else, yes, a collaboration is always fruitful. I just want to try it on my own first. Moreover its tough to find someone in your country who writes in the language that's least rewarding monetarily in the country.

I guess someone who is writing lyrics for his own songs would know a method or two.

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Edited by AuralSerenity (21/10/10 08:17 AM)

Quote AuralSerenity:

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Thanks Steve. Elton John's example was a bit sad though. That's my disliking anyways.

Would you know of any software or a tool that may be an aid to me, an absolute beginner in the discipline?

I found this an hour ago and was a very interesting read.

I'm actually looking for some tutorial that may lay a systematic approach to achieve the ability of a lyricist, and would like to see if it works. Or else, yes, a collaboration is always fruitful. I just want to try it on my own first. Moreover its tough to find someone in your country who writes in the language that's least rewarding monetarily in the country.

I guess someone who is writing lyrics for his own songs would know a method or two.

---

If there is a "method" the Doors song you mention illustrates it perfectly. Find a hook, keep repeating it. "Light My Fire" is a perfect example. Once you've heard the music of the first line, you've heard the song. It's repeated four times, slightly modified and repeated 4 more times for the chorus.

I find for your already written poetry you need to be prepared to tweak it when you put it to music. Changing the odd word and phrase that doesn't fit in with the music and repeating phrases that work well

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Never forget that the music is the main thing. Sure lyrics can help a great deal, but it's all in aid of the music. 'Light My Fire' was a great catchy lyric, but it was the record that sold millions, not the lyric sheet.

So if you're struggling to come up with some decent music to match your lyrics, then forget 'em. Write the best music you can. Then come up with some lyrics for it.

I mentioned 'Light my fire', only because it was then playing in my pc, and also the fact that it was written before being composed. Otherwise there are so many to learn from, so many with different style. I know 'Light my fire' was catchy, but sometimes the whole message is supposed to be catchy or cool or haunting instead of the hook itself, and that is when song becomes tough to figure out. Like 'Walking in Memphis' by 'Marc Cohn'.

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Quote AuralSerenity:

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that is when song becomes tough to figure out. Like 'Walking in Memphis' by 'Marc Cohn'.

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"Put on my blue suede shoes and boarded the plane, touched down in the land of the delta blues, in the middle of the pouring rain".

Not particularly hard to figure, with all respect. Even the part about "ten feet off of Beale" is nothing more than a Google search away, i.e. Beale Street.

Quote Shambolic Charm:

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I find for your already written poetry you need to be prepared to tweak it when you put it to music. Changing the odd word and phrase that doesn't fit in with the music and repeating phrases that work well

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I'll try to remember that.

I said I'll try because this fact that you said is applicable in every art. One seriously need to be as brutal as a suicidal case. I was told this when I was learning music and still I find myself romancing out with the crap that I was able to cook in last three rigorous days. It takes a lot to be self critical. If Justin Bieber had this trait, he would have been doing better by being a brand ambassador for kiddie-wear and children's clothing, instead of a musician.

But I'll also remember that this self brutality doesnt conclude the part in 'Light my fire' that goes like - 'girl, we couldn't get much higher' was a bad deal against the Ed-Sullivan's career boosting show. Pride should be precise. Not a penny less and not a penny more.



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Am I missing the point?

By the way those words are so musch in my head that I sang them just now instead of reading. Nostalgic. Going to play this beauty right now.



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Edited by AuralSerenity (21/10/10 11:11 AM)

Quote AuralSerenity:

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I've got a dozen sheets of poetries that I wrote long back when I started out with music production. Purpose was to incorporate music around them, but then they didnt turn up into songs as I had no clue how to shape music around them. Now few days back I got very enthusiastic and as looked into these lyrics I think they are not that bad to be ignored. Now for the first time in my life, I would like to build a few songs with lyrics. My problem is that I dont know the method of writing music for the lyrics. I looked on the web but to no success yet. So if anyone knows of a tutorial or literature or have any idea or suggestion for me then please help me.

Do you people write lyrics first or the music? I think it should be much more easier to make lyrics when a musical thought is already there in the head. Am I wrong?

---

It's important to consider the fundamental differences between poerty as a spoken form and lyrics as a sung form.

1. Song lyrics are fundamentally tied to the key, rhythm and tempo of the music. Even strictly metered poetry like you find in Shakespeare is not tied in any way to these characteristics; although sonorous, that music is found internally in the phonemes via alliteration and rhyme and assonance for its consonant, percussive and vowel rhyme effects.

2. Word sounds must be related harmonically, melodically and percussively to the instruments which they complement. Therefore the methodologies can be as follows: a) music can be written for lyrics, b) lyrics can be written for music or c) music and lyrics can be written together.

These are three distinct disciplines.

3. Poetry can be added to music. Taking The Doors as your par excellence example I refer to 'An American Prayer' 1978.

4. Songline traditions concern the relationships between historically evolved traditions of poetry, music and songs and it could be recommended that for a beginner it is wise to trace your own cultural roots and begin with your traditional music to find your first songwriter's voice. Then with time make the connections with world music and pop music to develop as a songwriter.

5. Finally every song must be the expression of how the inner voice is heard by the outer world and is therefore the point at which the craftsperson becomes an artist.

Very intelligent post, 'ElecTrika-MixTek'. Thanks for this.

American Prayer was experimental though. I love it but it didnt cross my mind as I was more consciously focusing on the song like songs. But I get your point and will not get astray from the idea.

Any more of details on the point a) music can be written for lyrics? I mean How? Like as you mentioned 'An American Prayer', it almost puts a light bulb on my head. If my poetries cant be sung, how about recitations, I mean. But American Prayer werent as flat as recitation, there was an element of musical sing-songness to them. How do I figure that out?




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Quote AuralSerenity:

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Very intelligent post, 'ElecTrika-MixTek'. Thanks for this.

American Prayer was experimental though. I love it but it didnt cross my mind as I was more consciously focusing on the song like songs. But I get your point and will not get astray from the idea.

Any more of details on the point a) music can be written for lyrics? I mean How? Like as you mentioned 'An American Prayer', it almost puts a light bulb on my head. If my poetries cant be sung, how about recitations, I mean. But American Prayer werent as flat as recitation, there was an element of musical sing-songness to them. How do I figure that out?

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Firstly let's start with your poems. Assuming they are in English can you post two verses and a possible hook or catchy chorus element please.

Certainly we can talk in general terms but for your case we must be specific.

Generally though, we must first observe the genre, style, the meter, and the rhymes as well as the percussive effects of your poetry.

From there we select a suitable form such as the ballad, or the folksong, or the rock anthem and so on... as would be relevant.

Thereafter we must select the instruments and most suitable tones and effects to complement the words and then begin the musical construction of

1. Tempo and rhythm section.
2. Key centre and fundamental melodies.
3. Free variation of melodic ideas on the tonality of the song
4. Decisions about the strongest musical implementation of the lyrics based on musical taste.
5. editing and rounding out of the song with respect to verse and chorus structure, delivery of theme and ending of he song.

"Bongolese." it's how Bonbon does it.
''Bongolese is a term coined by U2's lead singer Bono to describe the gibberish he voices in place of fully formed lyrics during the early stages of the band's songwriting process.'' quote from here

Just though you might like to know that.

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Quote ElecTrika-MixTek:

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t's important to consider the fundamental differences between poetry as a spoken form and lyrics as a sung form.

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I think your analysis is an excellent one. I think the setting of poetry not originally meant for song is tricky and rarely succesful (outside of classical music where composers do things to metre and scansion not allowed to The Rest Of Us). One of the few exceptions is the poetry of Rudyard Kipling, which has been set successfully many times over the years. The reason why is instructive. It seems that when writing a poem Kipling almost always had a tune in mind, usually a popular song, sometimes quite banal (Home Sweet Home and the like). The result is the words of the poems have all the characteristics that make them easy to fit to a tune and easy to sing once so fitted.

Maybe in the case of the poems already written by AS he could try and adapt them in a similar way and then try to fit original tunes to them.

CC

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Put the fun back into dysfunctional.
Mr Punch's Studio

Quote:

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It takes a lot to be self critical. If Justin Bieber had this trait, he would have been doing better...

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He's probably quite happy with how he's doing already.

Which is better than most of us round here.

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Dynamite with a laser beam...

Quote ElecTrika-MixTek:

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Assuming they are in English can you post two verses and a possible hook or catchy chorus element please.

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Yes they are in English.

You've put me between a rock and a hard place dear. Posting them online would be really something that I need to be more courageous of. I'm not finicky about the ownership issue and I'm not shying away from the criticism (even considering some hilarious ones). I'm just not bold enough to disclose my work on an online forum where most of the visitors assume you to be breathing the same air that 90% other users might be breathing, the air of struggle and wannabe stardom. And this goes specially to the work that might be used later on, like my mixes. I once had a myspace account by a different name and for a different genre than what I indulge in now. Most of the people with all the praises and following had an anticipation of me retorting the similar views to their work, and my criticism made them harsh and blunt later on. So I chose to stick with the anonymity that I'm now quite fond of and walked out of myspace where everyone's an artist at large. Instead I'll request you to provide the wisdom through general terms. But if it gets beyond your comfort then let me know and I may PM you some or the other of my work.

Quote ElecTrika-MixTek:

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Generally though, we must first observe the genre, style, the meter, and the rhymes as well as the percussive effects of your poetry.
From there we select a suitable form such as the ballad, or the folksong, or the rock anthem and so on... as would be relevant.
Thereafter we must select the instruments and most suitable tones and effects to complement the words and then begin the musical construction of -
1. Tempo and rhythm section.
2. Key centre and fundamental melodies.
3. Free variation of melodic ideas on the tonality of the song
4. Decisions about the strongest musical implementation of the lyrics based on musical taste.
5. Editing and rounding out of the song with respect to verse and chorus structure, delivery of theme and ending of the song.

---

I guess it can be a little easier if we take this poetry in context. I've studied Rimbaud for long but my work doesnt compare to Rimbauds in any way. My meanings and senses are far more on the face, while his are more metaphorical. Though I must say that one of my work has a similar recitation effects as The Drunken Boat's this translation which I mentioned. A professor of English literature who is also a poet, he once told me this. He said that someone who doesnt follow English might be confusing in two as most of the words are similar. Even I found it similar in sound when I reread it. I could also give you some more simplistic and accurate references from 'An American Prayer' like 'Latino Chrome' which is quite similar in sense but I refrained to do so as its already been sung or recited to the music, and I'm afraid it will then play as a backdrop to any further thought.

By the way the points you mentioned above will, for sure, be milestones for me. Please continue.



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Quote Stan:

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"Bongolese." it's how Bonbon does it.

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Like Raja Ram once said "Shponglese" is what they speak in Shpongleland.

Ridiculous, isnt it?

Or should I say Shponglidiculous?

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Edited by AuralSerenity (21/10/10 01:36 PM)

Quote ConcertinaChap:

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Maybe in the case of the poems already written by AS he could try and adapt them in a similar way and then try to fit original tunes to them.

CC

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Point taken.

O I didnt know that about Kipling. Thanks.

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Quote Steve Hill:

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He's probably quite happy with how he's doing already.

Which is better than most of us round here.

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My dad once said that anyone who rises fast may fall fast. I guess I'll give him more time before the verdict.

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Quote AuralSerenity:

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I guess it can be a little easier if we take this poetry in context. I've studied Rimbaud for long but my work doesnt compare to Rimbauds in any way. My meanings and senses are far more on the face, while his are more metaphorical. Though I must say that one of my work has a similar recitation effects as The Drunken Boat's this translation which I mentioned. A professor of English literature who is also a poet, he once told me this. He said that someone who doesnt follow English might be confusing in two as most of the words are similar. Even I found it similar in sound when I reread it. I could also give you some more simplistic and accurate references from 'An American Prayer' like 'Latino Chrome' which is quite similar in sense but I refrained to do so as its already been sung or recited to the music, and I'm afraid it will then play as a backdrop to any further thought.

By the way the points you mentioned above will, for sure, be milestones for me. Please continue.

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You can pm me if you like and I'll treat the message as confidential.

With respect to the Rimbaud poem we must consider that these are translations and almost certainly not good starting points.

Let me suggest that poetry written up to the early 20th C is more likely to adhere to consistent meter and rhyme schemes and therefore more amenable to regular arrangement. After Moderninsm written poetry becomes freer and much more experimental eschewing first meter, then rhyme schemes and other regular forms which is no good for song structure.

I would guess that a folk music may be more suitable for your ideas and encourage you to listen to Planxty the Irish Trad Band, as well as perhaps American folk music from the 50s and 60s where there is certainly a poetics-songwriting crossover worth researching.

Unless that is you wish to go for a more experimental sound?

William Burroughs plus music equals http://www.amazon.co.uk/Spare-Ass-Annie-Other-Tales/dp/B000005HTW Not sure whether I liked it or not when I heard it about ten years ago, but an example of more poetic/spoken word and music. Certainly experimental.

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http://soundcloud.com/richie-royale
http://www.mixcrate.com/richieroyale

Whaoowww! This was absolutely excellent reference. Is all Irish music SO BEAUTIFUL. I always knew their accent is like melted sugar in the ears. But their songs too are absolutely excellent. I think my smile will reach from one ear to another after producing something like this. O a lot many thanks dear.

You have a very clear idea of how word goes musically 'cause my cousin who is sitting right beside me said that The Drunken Boat goes more to the style of Jethro Tull, which I laughed upon. But Planxty is so much more accurate.

One thing more friend, if you click on the youtube link then see this smiley while the song plays, its a replica of my cousin, when the song started.

My cousin's immediate reaction to 'As I Roved Out' =


Please give me some time, and I'll soon PM you. I'll have to pull my balls up and will have to figure out which one do I send.

Its a pleasure meeting you.



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To Sam Inglis

Sam dear if you've read this thread and still chose to keep quiet, then I must tell you it isnt fair. I just found this out.

Thanks anyways.

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Edited by AuralSerenity (21/10/10 02:25 PM)

You might check out Natalie Merchant's "Leave Your Sleep" double album - a six year self-financed project with 100-plus musicians in which she's set a lot of pre-existing children's poems to music, with both Eastern and Western influences.

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Dynamite with a laser beam...

I think it's generally understood that as a rule the worse the poetry the easier it is to set to music. When the poetry's really good you need to be Schubert or Mahler. Doggerel is easiest, or nursery rhymes if you're into rap. If you're a good poet don't expect anyone to find it easy to turn it into songs.

Maybe you should concentrate on writing just the top lines then ask someone here to see what they can do with the tunes. Old fashioned way of doing it, but it allows each contributor to specialise.

Now, back to finding the right three chords for The Wasteland...

Quote Steve Hill:

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You might check out Natalie Merchant's "Leave Your Sleep" double album - a six year self-financed project with 100-plus musicians in which she's set a lot of pre-existing children's poems to music, with both Eastern and Western influences.

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Listen Online at her website:

http://www.nataliemerchant.com/l/leave-your-sleep/nursery-rhyme-of-innocen ce-and-experience

Quote AuralSerenity:

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Whaoowww! This was absolutely excellent reference. Is all Irish music SO BEAUTIFUL. I always knew their accent is like melted sugar in the ears. But their songs too are absolutely excellent. I think my smile will reach from one ear to another after producing something like this. O a lot many thanks dear.

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Aye, thanks for that. Took me back to the 70s when I was quite a Planxty fan. Still am, really, though I spend more time now with English traditional music, of course.

Traditional songs of whatever origin usually show a beautiful merging of words and tune, normally I believe because they've been around for a while and gone through the mouths and minds of many traditional singers, and over time the corners get rounded off and new felicities found. I reckon that with any new song you could do worse than to emulate that and not rush it out, but sing it lots and to all your friends and let the song grow into its final shape. And that would be true whether the words or the tune came first.

CC

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Put the fun back into dysfunctional.
Mr Punch's Studio

Hello dear brother! Your poetries can not be sung. I told you that. Stop wasting your time. Do what you do best. And be serious about it. If I want I can post all your poetries right now, and you will see that everyone will agree to me. Its good that you realize it on your own. Ciao.

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*HELP - Signature Wanted* (They deleted the previous one)

First learn the language and then speak only when you're told. And dare you use my computer again.

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Edited by AuralSerenity (21/10/10 08:26 PM)

Natalie Merchant's songs are as cool as her web design. I think much cooler than that. Thanks Steve. Children's poems are easy to sing. They have rhyme and the tonality. But the poetries as the one that I mentioned are really hard to decipher with a music and melody in mind. But I went through almost all of Natalie Merchant's songs on her site and I think she has done the later challenging part quite efficiently. Thanks.

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Quote petev3.1:

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I think it's generally understood that as a rule the worse the poetry the easier it is to set to music. When the poetry's really good you need to be Schubert or Mahler. Doggerel is easiest, or nursery rhymes if you're into rap. If you're a good poet don't expect anyone to find it easy to turn it into songs.

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So true, dear. So very true.

Quote petev3.1:

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Maybe you should concentrate on writing just the top lines then ask someone here to see what they can do with the tunes. Old fashioned way of doing it, but it allows each contributor to specialise.
Now, back to finding the right three chords for The Wasteland...

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Ideas and suggestions are always appreciated like I'm doing yours. There is always someone who knows better than the other. How deep I dig or how creatively I pick inspiration is the matter of my ability that I'm still fiddling with. Old ways are old 'cause new ones took over long back dear.
Tyranny is over and democracy is our way.
Our = We the musicians.



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I've immediately penned down the Planxty into my "sought after albums" list.

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Quote Phil O:

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I'm with Stan on this. I recall seeing an interview with Mick Jagger a while back and his method of writing initially involves singing a melody without words. Once that has been established, it may start to suggest certain things including lyrics, mood etc.

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Not wishing to intrude on a fraternal exchange of views! I am with Stan and Phil O on this 100%.

For me it starts with a phrase of music and a phrase of words, lets call them lyrics even, that just work with each other. They have to really fit together and make perfect sense to you at that time. Can't get it out of your head stuff. The phrase of music needs to be strong enough to suggest an obvious melody as well, and preferably some clues about rhythmical structure (important when it comes to complete in the lyric). The words must relate to something you currently feel about and the music must not only imply those words, but how you would want to say them (pronunciation/emphasis/mood). Once you have that, and you've thought enough about what the whole song is about to give it a name (working title at least) you are 90% done with the writing. The rest should flow fairly easily if its going to flow at all. Then arrangement/review composition... second arrangement and so on... and hopefully something that feels complete, rather than overworked.

For me the biggest thrill in creating music is when I get that initial lyrical and musical phrase and realise exactly what I want this song to be about. The rest is graft. Good graft but more like following a process. If I get that thrill once a month I regard myself as a lucky boy.

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Strictly project and just for fun

Hola,

I for one have to always write music/melody prior to words.
Some writers always write the lyric first, then sort the melody and harmony out after (think I heard Eg White writes predomonantly this way).

Songwriters that can work well either way really have their craft down in my opinion.

I'm sure writers that write lyric first are always thinking about syncapation, tempo, vowel sounds etc to make the process of adding melody later as smooth as poss.

Never dwelled in this forum bit before - interesting stuff on offer though!

Chin chin,
D

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"insert witty comment about drummers or hob-nobs"