Assuming you're using your D-A to monitor your final mix, what is the point of a converter which deliberately introduces analogue colouration? Nobody else is going to hear this 'warmth', and the mix will be slightly skewed as a consequence.

I can understand the benefit of a little 'something' when going A-D. But D-A?

Surely a D-A converter should be as clear and un-coloured as possible?

That would be my viewpoint as well Evie, and the reason why I opted for my Lavry DA10 converter to give me the most transparent D/A conversion of the various competitors I auditioned.

By all means employ A/D warming devices on ‘the way in’, when the added character makes it onto your recordings, but in the playback chain?

At the very least you’d need a transparent D/A alongside as well for comparison, so you could hear your recordings 'warts and all' after you’d been listening with the extra ‘warmth, phatness, and glue’


Martin

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YewTreeMagic

I can see why you might think like that... but others appear to take a different view.

A bit like people of yesteryear prefering to play back analogue tapes on ATR machines rather than the Studer they were recorded on...

Hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

All true, but you don't *just* use D-A for monitoring, of course — I suppose it could be quite handy in a hybrid system if you're running out of the box and back in again to process something. ie. using it as a front and back end for an outboard EQ, compressor or some such.

The man that can afford to spend £2200 on a "coloured" AD or DA probably already has a very good transparent DA.

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Squarehead Jam Jar Facebook Jam Jar

Perfect for hifi!

They have a limited use - and the AD is more use than the DA - but they are incredible.

Quote JamesSimpson:

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The man that can afford to spend £2200 on a "coloured" AD or DA probably already has a very good transparent DA.

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Indeed he does James

Quote narcoman:

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They have a limited use - and the AD is more use than the DA - but they are incredible.

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Any idea how they compare for desirable colouration with the HEDD 192 narco? After all, that's got A/D and D/A with optional warmth switchable between the two, and is highly regarded.


Martin

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YewTreeMagic

Evie, that's true. I thought about this once when I was buying an interface and the sales guy told me about the DAC warmth as a positive feature. It alarmed me but his mathematics skills wasnt seeming to be rewarding so I didnt argue. Very interesting thread though. Hope some interface engineer might come for a description. Then this thread will be very handy for my current Max project.




Martin you are right, I think there purpose is innocent, they may stick with warmth in order to put a sheet over jitter flaws, else that will cost them a lot more to resolve those errors, so its true that expensive ones are much more uncolored and flat. Not just Nyquist frequency but even the simple determinable white noise need more costly raw material to resolve.
But the warmth that you can toggle? That doesnt make any sense until you use it for warm playbacks in the studio. And for matter are we buying a pricey Hifi stereo in the disguise of an interface?



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SoundCloud


Edited by AuralSerenity (26/10/10 12:55 PM)

Quote Martin Walker:

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Any idea how they compare for desirable colouration with the HEDD 192 narco? After all, that's got A/D and D/A with optional warmth switchable between the two, and is highly regarded.


Martin

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The confusing response of "very similar but very different"..... Same sort of effect but I think it's much better. Reminds me of using an ampex 102 half inch without smacking into the red at 30 ips on some high input tape.

Aural S - mixing ITB isn't always as ITB as you expect. Using these and running off into a high format recorder is one use {I often mix mostly in the box - but the final mix most certainly is not bounced internally}. Or using them as a route through to hardware out and back.......a high end unit {and disguising jitter figures! come on..... !!!} with a high end price tag and most definitely not aimed at the project studio.

Quote narcoman:

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and disguising jitter figures! come on..... !!!

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Agreed. These days jitter is so low as to be inaudible. Aural, the review read with reference to the graphs would give you a lot of useful info, I'm guessing.

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madtheory creations
Synths and pianos for Kontakt

Hi narco, I guess it wont be a factor on PT HD as I think you are on it and even on RME my issues are minimal. When I thought of low end ones I literally considered the very low end ones, (wont name any as these are the sensitive issues here, I've recently learned that). Of course these low end ones were still better than most of the consumer end soundcards (again I wont name these as its...). Subtle nuances get very tricky to find and an ultra high end interface are not the only final answer for all the pristine commercial work. So many of my colleagues are depending on a not so sought after configuration and still things are not so bad, maybe the reason is their final mix, as you said, goes to and fro the hardware. And maybe after all the mixdown sessions the mastering stage occurs in a 'O so cool' studios. Mostly on some PT HD, downtown.



Tomás Mulcahy, I do not know what you're talking about. What references and what graphs are you talking about? I happened to be in the team of driver designers for a low end one (sorry I cant name it, reason is stated above) running some fifty modules for the quality check, so on the basis of my limited knowledge jitters were a prime issue that we dealt with. Though I confess that it was an ancient history, and now of course we do have sleek components. But sleekness is never sold for peanuts.

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SoundCloud


Edited by AuralSerenity (26/10/10 04:25 PM)

Quote AuralSerenity:

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they may stick with warmth in order to put a sheet over jitter flaws, else that will cost them a lot more to resolve those errors, so its true that expensive ones are much more uncolored and flat.

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I think you're barking up completely the wrong tree here, AS.

The 'warmth' or 'colouration' attributed to the Burl Bomber AD and DA is a deliberate policy to bring some sonic character to the party -- and my tests revealed nothing dodgy about the clocking at all. This is a very well made and serious piece of high-end kit, that just happens to be designed to have a sound character.

They both sound fabulously analogue, which is a refreshing change, and while I personally would prefer a totally neutral D-A for montoring, there are certainly applications for a characterful D-A on occasions.

Hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Quote AuralSerenity:

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What references and what graphs are you talking about?

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I wasn't talking about references, I was saying to read the article while referring to these graphs:
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/nov10/articles/burlb2media.htm

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madtheory creations
Synths and pianos for Kontakt

* Hugh and Tomás


Ohhhhhh!

I owe you an apology. I didnt notice that the whole conversation was around that article. Its funny that I didnt notice it even when Hugh mentioned it in previous post. I'm sorry guys I didnt know about this article till now. Its an excellent article Hugh. Thanks for it. Although I've only reached to the part where you did that hummer test to check the ground loop susceptibility. Now I get the whole picture.

You were right Hugh, I was barking up completely the wrong tree. I have a question Hugh. In both the places, pros and cons, you mentioned the point of its meters emphasizing the top 12 db. Sounds contradictory. Does it mean that this converter was meant mainly for mastering processes?

Also, you compared it to UA 2192. Now I've seen UA 2192 for mixing and I was very much impressed. Which among the two do you think is better for mixing sessions?



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SoundCloud

Quote AuralSerenity:

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I owe you an apology. I didnt notice that the whole conversation was around that article.

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Apology accepted... but it really does help if you want to join in a conversation to have a reasonable idea of what people are talking about first!

Quote:

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In both the places, pros and cons, you mentioned the point of its meters emphasizing the top 12 db. Sounds contradictory.

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It is contradictory -- for some that style of metering is a bonus, and for others it is a handicap. Hence it's inclusion in both boxes and my comments about it in the main text.

Quote:

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Does it mean that this converter was meant mainly for mastering processes?

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No, it means the designer had specific ideas in mind regarding metering...

Quote:

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Also, you compared it to UA 2192. Now I've seen UA 2192 for mixing and I was very much impressed. Which among the two do you think is better for mixing sessions?

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They are designed by the same guy and have very similar characteristics... as I also said in my review... but perhaps you haven't read that far yet either.

Hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Okay.

I read that part by the way, but that wasnt my question. I think lets forget about it.

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SoundCloud