I'd like to take comtrol of the vocal sound in our gigs. I'm looking at the TC Helicon range etc. It's mainly a good quality reverb/delay for the lead to a a bit of atmosphere, and a bit more tweeking for the backing vox I'm trying to do. I guess compression is an option ..
BUT
will taking control of the sound be a nightmare for a live engineer, seeing as getting the vocals loud/clear enough seems to be a problem in just about every venue we play. (they're pub size venues but with permanent PAs type thing)
Would we be limiting them/causing problems for them in the battle against feedback?

Does anyone do this regularly and how does it work for you?

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Wild Hope FB

Yes and yes.

using your own inline vocal FX will give an engineer a nightmare.
On the stage, you are in probably the worst position to judge sound levels and clarity. Singers tend to drown themselves in reverb, which the engineer will be in no position to sort out with the FX unit on the stage.

If you're going to go down that route, split the mic signal before the FX and send a dry feed to the main desk along with your FX laiden signal. That way the engineer can get a balance of wet and dry signals.

HTH.

Stu.

Preamp emulation *might* be worth having on the main send. Otherwise better to just give it to the soundman and let him do it. And ensure that the FX channel is 100% wet, unless you want to be using some effect on your vocals (e.g. robot voice), bcos otherwise fading up the FX will also boost the level of vocals, and that's not helpful for the soundman.

Compression at source is a bad idea. If you want to hear yourself, that channel needs to go back into the monitors. And compression plus monitors equals feedback problems.

Reverb is also a bad idea. Reverb is the sworn enemy of intelligible vocals, and if you're on stage then you cannot and will never be able to get that right. The reverb time also needs to be set right for the room, so even if it's in your send then it may not sound right. A cheap-and-nasty reverb set up correctly by the soundman will make you sound way better than the most expensive Lexicon set up badly.

Delay OTOH can be a useful addition, especially if controlled by a foot pedal.

And at the risk of repeating my usual thoughts on this, a problem getting vocals to cut through is usually actually a problem with one or more other things (usually guitars or drums) being too loud for the venue. Of course you may just have hit a succession of crap soundmen though. What kind of stuff are you playing?

Thanks for the thoughts so far.

We play lightish indie rock. I used to use a 5W guitar amp, and the bass a 20W bass amp, so we're not overly loud on stage.
Perhaps we ought to be more prescriptive and persistant in getting what we want from the inhouse engineer then. I would like more "atmosphere" in the lead vocal (but not going mad on it), and some more heavy effect on the backing vocals - as you might on a recording for instance.

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Wild Hope FB

It sounds like you'd be better off recruiting your own engineer that can run the desk at all your gigs.
They'll still need a dry signal from you, as well as one drowning in reverb, etc, as on stage, you will have no idea of what it sounds like, but at least they will understand what you want to acheive with the sounds you are sending to him/her.

Stu.

I like the two (wet & dry) signal approach.
Our own mix engineer would be even better Now where do I find one of them .....

I would quite like to band limit the backing vox - even as much as the telephone effect - so I guess this would have to be on both wet & dry.

Lots to think about.

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Wild Hope FB

Just spotted from your sig who your band is. In which case I know two of the places you'll be playing *very* well - I stopped doing sound for Jo this summer, but I used to do sound semi-regularly at the Cornerhouse and Haymakers. And I remember seeing the posters for you guys, but I don't remember ever doing sound for you - my memory does tend to be unreliable though.

Your amps would be a good choice for that size of place, so no worries there. Vocal mics at both are limited to SM58s though, so I always used to bring my own box of mics to provide some variety if I needed it. It's amazing how many bands spend thousands on their guitars, amps and drumkit but won't spend £50-£100 per vocalist on mics - I doubt I'd need both hands to count the number of bands who've had their own mics. If you want more clarity on lead vocals, a Beta58 is a very good place to start.

The problem with FX is that unless the soundman is *your* soundman and knows what to do for each song, you can get one FX setting at most (telephone, etc.) for your set. So if you want something specific for each song, you'll need to be doing that yourself.

And for reverb, do try to be specific for what you want with the soundman. One band particularly asked for lots of reverb with a reference to Pink Floyd - it wouldn't be my first choice of sound, but you know straight away what they're after.

Thanks for the wise words Grab.
We've played the Corner House & Haymakers a few times indeed. In fact we'll be at the Corner House in a couple of weeks to shake off the summer recess. We have tended to have a young chap with dreads on Jo's gigs or an even younger chap.
I'm guessing from your posts you're more my age ... i.e. wise, and experienced Did you do the Drugstore gig @ the Haymakers?

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Wild Hope FB

I would not let these minor technical elements stop you from taking artistic control of your vocals. The wet dry feeds should do the trick with effects.
Dynamics and eq might be a contentious area. The soundman may have to be introduced to the equipment - to sort out feedback or eq issues should they arise. Not really a problem for a pro - just a little tweaking.
Also, if the vocalists effectively have their own preamps on stage, the mic feeds may be a little hotter than normal so the engineer will have pull back on the desk faders. Little compromises - no biggie.
Introduce the sound engineer to the setup and all should be well.
I have to admit i havent done it myself yet - but i intend to.
Afterall, what could possibly go wrong?

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.. is this thing on?

Not enough of either, I'm afraid - they don't always come for free with age.

I've not done sound for Jo since about June. I needed to get some major work done in our garden, and I was finding that if I had a gig on Friday night then I wouldn't get anything done on Saturday. Bit of a shame bcos I did enjoy it, and Jo's a good friend, but then I was only doing it for fun and beer anyway.

Not sure who's doing sound at the Haymakers now. Pete (18ish, glasses) and Royston (Jo's brother) were the two regulars, but Roy left earlier in the year and Pete went to uni this September, so I don't know who's behind the desk now.