questions in the title
im a newbie to reel to reel and would be really greatful if anyone could shed some light on to whats best to get in that price range,
i dont mind if its a 4-8-16 track (unlikley)
as i will be (trying) to get a blend of the sound out of the tape and a digital recording through the apogee pre's, so its more to do with using it for the 'saturation effect'
and also Ips wise it would have to be 15(most likely) or above (if im lucky)

seen as this is one of my first post, please dont burn me, i come in peace

Welcome to the SOS Forums Carl!

I suspect that other old-time reel-to-reel tape users like me are also likely to dissuade you from this course, since most of us are well pleased to see the back of all the background noise, and the problems in buying suitable tape and aligning the tape machine to it to get optimum performance.

Spending £200 on an old tape deck and then expecting it to add instant magic to your recordings is a little optimistic in my opinion

Others may totally disagree of course


Martin

--------------------
YewTreeMagic

I'm with Martin on this. Buying and maintaining a decent two-track for that budget would be a challenge. A decent multiutrack would be a serious challenge... and you'll need to factor in the running costs of alignment, routine maintenance, tape consumables and so on.

There ae some narrow-format multitrack machines around, like the Fostex recorders, which might appear in that budget, but expecting something servicable is optimistic.

Hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Quote Martin Walker:

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Spending £200 on an old tape deck and then expecting it to add instant magic to your recordings is a little optimistic in my opinion

Others may totally disagree of course

---

...but not me.

I lived through the days of tape and good riddance to it I say!

Unless you REALLY know what you're walking into I say leave tape well alone.

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An Eagle for an Emperor, A Kestrel for a Knave.

firstly, id like to say thanks, i wasnt expecting such a speedy reply (even if it was bad news , but i guess what i was asking for is abit of a tall order, thinking about it now)

the thing is my studio is very minimal (due to funding), consisting of fairly 'clean' sounding equipment the path so far is just my apogee ensemble, and all SSL duende's pluggins (trying to save my overworked cpu), this was another reason i thought of the analogue multi-track.

the thing is ive seen a few fostex, (R8 even an E16!) go for not too bad money, but i guess parts are not easy to get hold off? or hard to service?

i have also seen a tascam MSR 16 go for about the same price, but i have heard they are noisy machines.

the thing is alot of these machines are sold 'untested'
im pretty sure very few of them work as they should.

its such a hard thing to get a foothold into, but those are the reasons i want to try one, even if its just to have that restriction in a mixdown in comparison to the liberties i take in the digital domain.

do you think it would be more sensible to try and get hold a two track revox as there are plenty of spares floating about online?
or should i just give up my search and be happy with what i have?

Not taking the micky here, but do you actually know what saturation sounds like? Could you not get adequately close enough to the sound you want using an emulation plugin?

Like the others, I would never recommend using real tape, except for someone who really understands the medium doing so for nostalgic reasons.

P.S.
Welcome to the forum. Hope you enjoy your stay here - it can become addictive you know

--------------------
It wasn't me!
(Well, actually, it probably was)

see this is what i was thinking, maybe i could do a good enough job with an emulation, but then i am worried about my cpu usage as it is.
also i like the idea of going out of my computer adding character and routing back in (as pathetic as that sounds)

There are many reasons to use tape - but you won't get the "magic " effects if:

a) you dont know what you're doing
b) you dont have a decent tape deck.

Now - you MAY get interesting FX out of ANY tape unit (I've even used a cassette machine do get certain effects). So there may be fun mileage in ANY tape machine you may choose. But if you are looking for that unmistakeable quality that comes from a high end tape machine running at 15ips or above - then £400 isn't going to do it!! I have several tape machines - the one that oozes class and quality is a half inch two track ATR 102 from Ampex. It does things that no plugin comes remotely close to - but it is subtle.... subtle but beautiful!! They are also not cheap.


£400 will get you a Tascam 80-8 or an Awai quarter inch 4 track or similar. You wont get anything at 15ips unless its not worth having.

About the ONLY people you will find drooling over tape are the ones who were not there the first time (pretty much everyone who was there is glad to see the back of the nasty stuff)!

Hell look at the consumables cost, you can buy quite a lot of CPU power for the cost of a few reels of 1 inch tape (And a whole new machine for the cost of a few reels of 2 inch). A TB of hard disk is (much) cheaper then a reel of 2 inch tape.

Now lets look at the accessories you WILL find you need if you buy an old machine off someone:

MRL alignment tape (Not cheap!).
'Scope (Multiple uses, but you will need to know how to drive it).
Cleaning kit.
Tentelometer (Tape tension gauge, used to set torque levels and brakes).
Splicing kit (Sooner or later you WILL snap a tape).
Spare spools and probably NAB adaptors.
Dolby rack (which will be old enough to probably need recapping)....

You could easily spend £400 just on the tools you will need to maintain and use the thing, never mind the tape deck itself.

Now if you want to integrate with a DAW based workflow you will need to chase timecode, so that is more hardware (and one track you can use for nothing else), also you will quickly discover that LTC gets into adjacent tracks if the alignment is not just so.

Tape saturation is a horribly over rated effect (Mostly rated by those who never had to deal with the horrible ways it interacted with a dolby card!), seriously a better PC and a plugin is the way to go.

Now if you had the money for a really nice deck, and the skills to maintain it then fine (but there are easier ways), but none of the budget stuff will get you what you are looking for.

There is a reason everyone is telling you that tape is evil and wrong......

Regards, Dan.

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Audiophiles use phono leads because they are unbalanced people!

cheers you guys,
i really appriciate the input, and as bitter-a-pill it is to swallow, i have decided not to buy a cheapish fostex/tascam as it will probably give me a hard time and at that price range will not live up my expectations,
who knows a few years from now i may bump into someone with one, try it HATE it and be back on here to tell the tale.

Thanks again

Quote dmills:

---

About the ONLY people you will find drooling over tape are the ones who were not there the first time (pretty much everyone who was there is glad to see the back of the nasty stuff)!

Hell look at the consumables cost, you can buy quite a lot of CPU power for the cost of a few reels of 1 inch tape (And a whole new machine for the cost of a few reels of 2 inch). A TB of hard disk is (much) cheaper then a reel of 2 inch tape.

Now lets look at the accessories you WILL find you need if you buy an old machine off someone:

MRL alignment tape (Not cheap!).
'Scope (Multiple uses, but you will need to know how to drive it).
Cleaning kit.
Tentelometer (Tape tension gauge, used to set torque levels and brakes).
Splicing kit (Sooner or later you WILL snap a tape).
Spare spools and probably NAB adaptors.
Dolby rack (which will be old enough to probably need recapping)....

You could easily spend £400 just on the tools you will need to maintain and use the thing, never mind the tape deck itself.

Now if you want to integrate with a DAW based workflow you will need to chase timecode, so that is more hardware (and one track you can use for nothing else), also you will quickly discover that LTC gets into adjacent tracks if the alignment is not just so.

Tape saturation is a horribly over rated effect (Mostly rated by those who never had to deal with the horrible ways it interacted with a dolby card!), seriously a better PC and a plugin is the way to go.

Now if you had the money for a really nice deck, and the skills to maintain it then fine (but there are easier ways), but none of the budget stuff will get you what you are looking for.

There is a reason everyone is telling you that tape is evil and wrong......

Regards, Dan.

---

so me and Joe Baressi weren't there the first time eh?

Points taken though - unless you have the time and money - steer clear.

Cant say I agree about tape artifacts being undesirable though - still the great majority of rock and band records (not talking budget records here) are tracked to tape - just as they are mixed on consoles. But - buyer beware - this is all money money money tape and not some 8 track that one "can afford".

There's a massive difference between budget tape recorders and the real thing. I never realised how much I had to struggle with my Fostex machines until I used an Otari MTR90. The Otari is much easier to align and service and the sound is solid. If I ever wanted to track on analogue I'd be using the Otari rather than the Fostex.

James.

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JRP Music - Audio Mastering and Restoration.
http://www.jrpmusic.net

Well Carl, it looks as if almost everyone did agree with me as I suspected

For what it's worth, I had a 2-track Revox A77, and was well pleased to move over to hard disk recording.

As Dan pointed out here:

Quote dmills:

---

look at the consumables cost, you can buy quite a lot of CPU power for the cost of a few reels of 1 inch tape

---

...I also suspect you've underestimated the cost of running a tape machine other than as a special effect. Ironically, for me the best special effects I got from a tape machine were from an ancient Cossor domestic valve model with magic eye level indicator, bought by my parents in the 60's, whose mic inputs I used to drive really hard with a bass guitar. High-fidelity it was not, but as an effect it was way cool


Martin

--------------------
YewTreeMagic

Quote Martin Walker:

---

for me the best special effects I got from a tape machine were from an ancient Cossor domestic valve model with magic eye level indicator, bought by my parents in the 60's, whose mic inputs I used to drive really hard with a bass guitar. High-fidelity it was not, but as an effect it was way cool

---

I'm tempted to say that the best effect I ever got from a tape machine was the sound of it hitting the bottom of the skip...

...but that would be both a lie and a little cruel!

--------------------
An Eagle for an Emperor, A Kestrel for a Knave.

Humour aside I'm moderately amused that there are people here who don't recognize the sonic mojo tape can {note - CAN} have. I'll put it simply - you cannot make a White Stripes record, a QOTSA record, A Dirtbomb's record or many other sonically stamped records on anything BUT high end tape machines.

Same as you cannot get a great blues valve guitar sound out of a transistor amp or a plugin. There are things only do-able in certain ways. You also can't make a "Justice " style french house record ON a tape machine.... It is entirely different to record orchestra to high speed high end tape to recording it on DAW. It's a completely aesthetic decision and I support anyone who announces a preference for either method...... but to denounce high end tape as being something "you're glad to see the back of" is just weird.

Having said that - I'm equally gobsmacked by those who claim some nastiness in the digital domain...... there are myriad tools out there all capable of doing various things. Tape is one of the tools an without it we lose as much as removing consoles, rooms, valve mic's or real drums.

SO - you chaps berating tape machines on cost and hassle - fair enough. But to not see some of the sonic attributes that have gone from your work is just weird. It amuses me no end to see me indirectly labelled as "someone who's not done it" - as in "champions of tape clearly haven't used it"......... kind of odd when you look at what me and a fair few of my contemporaries do....

No - tape is not some fancy of those who've never used it. 35 years in and I still like working with the darn stuff - but I also love working ITB. Using tape isn't a project to be undertaken lightly, nor by the inexperienced. But neither is it to be laughed at as some secondary "also ran".

A decent tape machine and console - sonics only - will wipe the floor with ANY DAW recording if it's in the zone for rock n roll or other such mojo driven areas. It MAY be cost prohibitive, it may be a pain - but you weigh up those pros and cons on an individual basis. If you're lucky - you weigh it up on a project basis.

OP - basically if you can't afford to spend proper money on tape then be wary of it doing anything but being an interesting distortion box. On that basis - I agree with most on here. If, however, you have a lust for beautiful mojo driven sound and have a lot of money - tape is, after all these years - still the way.

Quote narcoman:

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It sounds out to me that maybe a few on here haven't DONE any serious recording on tape. Using a 16 track Fostex half inch machine doesn't count!!

---

I never had a 16-track Fostex, but I'ved used one many times! I've done dozens of albums (award winners too) on tape of all kinds - no, it wasn't the very 'high end' stuff, but it was serious enough to be released by serious labels. I'm just talking about 'tape' as I knew it - I can speak about no other.

And I'm glad to see the back of it. If that makes me weird, then so be it!

--------------------
An Eagle for an Emperor, A Kestrel for a Knave.

Aye - but your reasons seem to be more about working the damn things than sonics!!

ps

my 35 is supposed say 25

Dont bother with multitrack, that's cassette quality.
Buy an old Nagra IV stereo 1/4 " machine.
Tape's cheap.
Run it at 15 ips Nagra Master.
(that's 7.5 ips eq @ 15 ips ) and its bloody magic.
Ignore all the above whingers, they had to line up their multis morning noon and night and they Never sounded as good as a Nagra Master.
You will love the twin needle Nagra Modulometer too.
Women will adore you and your cat will rub your legs.
Roger

--------------------
I am the Walrus.

Quote ROLO46:

---

Dont bother with multitrack, that's cassette quality.
Buy an old Nagra IV stereo 1/4 " machine.
Tape's cheap.
Run it at 15 ips Nagra Master.
(that's 7.5 ips eq @ 15 ips ) and its bloody magic.
Ignore all the above whingers, they had to line up their multis morning noon and night and they Never sounded as good as a Nagra Master.
You will love the twin needle Nagra Modulometer too.
Women will adore you and your cat will rub your legs.
Roger

---

good machine.

Yep, but you wont find a good example for the budget.

Don't forget that a lot of what you would think were basic parts on these machines (mains power supplies for example) were actually separate boxes and don't always come with them.

Apart from the pain in the arse factor I don't think anyone was ragging on the sonics of a half track Nagra, top end Otari or Studer running at a suitably high speed, but that is a very different market to the low end 8 track multitrack or low speed A77 or whatever that that sort of money will buy you.

I also suspect that a large part of the mojo was that if you were tracking on the good stuff then probably EVERYTHING else in the room was also good, Musicians, Room, Desks, Mics, Outboard, Engineer....
That is going to make FAR more difference then tape Vs something accurate.

Regards, Dan.

--------------------
Audiophiles use phono leads because they are unbalanced people!

I used a Fostex 8 track just once, but it was after having had fun with the Brennell. Even though the Fostex was about 10 years younger it just felt cheap and tacky in comparison - maybe that's not a very fair comparison.

--------------------
It wasn't me!
(Well, actually, it probably was)

Quote dmills:

---

Yep, but you wont find a good example for the budget.

Don't forget that a lot of what you would think were basic parts on these machines (mains power supplies for example) were actually separate boxes and don't always come with them.

Apart from the pain in the arse factor I don't think anyone was ragging on the sonics of a half track Nagra, top end Otari or Studer running at a suitably high speed, but that is a very different market to the low end 8 track multitrack or low speed A77 or whatever that that sort of money will buy you.

I also suspect that a large part of the mojo was that if you were tracking on the good stuff then probably EVERYTHING else in the room was also good, Musicians, Room, Desks, Mics, Outboard, Engineer....
That is going to make FAR more difference then tape Vs something accurate.

Regards, Dan.

---

all fair points.

Nagra pro kit criminally undervalued at this present time, apart from the never used SN.

--------------------
I am the Walrus.

Quote ROLO46:

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Nagra pro kit criminally undervalued at this present time, apart from the never used SN.

---

this was another brand, i managed to stumble across in my resarch,
i saw a Nagra III mono go for £200 2 days ago,

there are soo many different Nagra IV's what are the difference,
im not sure im going down the tape route now, but it would be nice to know

and by the way (i know ive already said it once) thanks guys for so much input,
i would be a fool not hang out in this forum