This will be my first post on the SOS forums. I figured this would be a good story to tell. I’m sure someone can relate to this. I could also use some advice from those that have more experience than me.

So I got a gig as a sound guy for a local act. They have only played out one time before as a 5 piece and ran there own sound. Small bars 150 people max. They needed a guy to help out so I figured this would be a great learning experience as I wanted to advance my skills. I am not super experienced but I am not a total newb either. You have start somewhere and what better way to do it than with a inexperienced band. The best part is they have all there own PA gear. They just wanted someone to set it up and run it. So I get to meet the guys at a rehearsal at least to go over some of the gear. Try and get as familiar with it as possible. The rehearsal goes well so we pack up for the gig the next day. Knowing full well that they don’t have a snake but just purchased one used from this guy and never tested it. I have no idea what connectors are on this thing etc. Great! I go home that night and pack up all the odd adapters I can scrounge up knowing something is going to not be right.

So I suggested we show up to the gig as early as possible to get ready. For me and for them, but mostly for me. They all agree and supposedly the club owner says we can start setting up at 6 for a show starting at 9. “3 hours” I say to myself, plenty of time to set up and get this right. The joy ends right there. I am sure people reading this know this story before they read it but this was my first time setting up an entire rig that I never set up before. So this is gonna be great!

We get there at 6pm. The owner says you can’t load our gear in! What! Well hold on a second. The trailer is double parked while we wait patiently. “OK” he says, “You can load all you gear in the basement”. At least we can get the gear in there. We load all our gear in the basement and head to the stage to scope it out. The manager says they have placed a party on the stage and we can’t set up till they leave. So we just sit down to eat dinner thinking that we could at least get on the stage at 8 for 9. It is now 6:30pm.

9:30 We are finally allowed to take our gear from the basement to place near the stage. Great! So now we have our stuff at least close to the stage.

10:30 OK, the management starts to shuffle the guests off the stage and move all the tables off the stage. Remember we are supposed to START at 9pm and have been there since 6! Meanwhile we have to lug our stuff through the crowd and put all of it on the stage. So we end up moving things two or three times to maneuver the gear around. I am grabbing cables and connecting things as fast as I can. I am thinking to myself “This is going to be awesome!”

11:30 Everything is finally plugged in. The snake that did show up by the way has all the wrong connectors on the returns and we don’t have enough adapters. The two I brought is just not enough. It’s all I had. So we condense the monitor feeds and run some super long single cables to the stage. It looks like total spaghetti. I should have taken a picture. Then, since the board is plugged in basically the same as practice, which doesn’t use the monitor feeds, they decide to just start. Sound check consists of everyone just making noise and they can hear it. While our 2 seconds of sound check goes on the manager says since WE started late there are no set breaks. People will leave. Perfect! The talkback mic channel doesn’t work at all. So I am just pointing and shouting.

11:32 The band just starts. I am fighting with feedback and trying to make things sound the best I can. Half way through the first song I get both managers and a crowd member telling me they can’t hear something in my left ear and my right ear is 4’ from the main PA speaker. Shocking really, I mean we had ample time to set up! This is going as smoothly as a fart in church. The vocal processor for the lead singer is on full wet and I can’t figure out why. I received and plugged in a dry and wet feed. I am looking at cable markings on my end and still I don’t understand why. I knew I plugged this into that channel? I figure out that the cables are labeled wrong on both ends. So one end there is double tape and the other end is nothing. Meanwhile the end I have has double tape on it. So the first few songs sound like crap till I realized what was going on. Rookie mistake I trusted a labeled cable and didn’t check both ends. I would assume if you label something on one end you would do it on another. Silly me.

11:45 Things start to get leveled out and to me 4’ from the PA I think it is OK. The board sums Mon 1 and 2 together so you can’t listen to the individual monitor feeds in a pair of headphones. So I have no idea what the bands monitors sound like. I am trying to listen to individual channels but being this close to the PA nothing is working for me. Half of the PFL switches don’t work! I can’t hear a damn thing except loudness. I also set up the groups in a way that I could not monitor the main outputs properly in my headphones. So I screwed the pooch on that one. The band wasn’t stopping between songs at all so I didn’t want to make any drastic changes on the fly and really risk screwing something things up even worse.

12am Things are running and at least it doesn’t sound atrocious in the crowd. I walked out a few times to the back of the room and to me at the time it sounded OK. I made the terrible mistake of recording my feeds from the speaker processors. I told the band I would so they could hear each other afterwards. Looking back I should have told them I didn’t catch a recording and forgot. I know that the board feed isn’t exactly what the crowd hears. I don’t think they seemed to get that.

2am We shut down and pack up. I am exhausted and my ears are killing me even when trying to use ear plugs. I don’t get home till 4am. One more thing, I didn’t get paid either! Then everyone lets me know they couldn’t hear themselves. WTF! So I am just chalking it up as a learning experience.

So this is my experience the first time I ran sound solo. I learned a whole lot of what not to do and what to remember for the next time. You don’t start out on top you have to start at the bottom. Any comments, laughter, criticism is welcome. I figure someone will get a laugh out of this. I did the next day. I realize this is low end bar sound not anything special. But, I always want to make things sound there best in whatever I do. So I am sure someone can relate to this. I will never forget this experience as long as I live.

If you made it to the end of this story thank you.

That's Rock & Roll!

By the way Junkie - did that cure your addiction!

By the sounds of that, it can only get better from here on in

Hi, Poor you! For a start, having to wait all that time and then getting complaints of tardiness would have got me going home with my gear with Vs flashing out of my car window.
I would have done a side of stage mix also, as in keep the band happy with monitors, reduce the cabling (not use snake) and work from vocals up.
If you can get the monitors passable in the first 2 numbers , then do a walk around, that is preferable.
Don't forget quiet and intelligible is better than loud with feedback, as most people don't notice a bad sound until feedback appears, then you get stared at by numpties.
Better luck next time.. Dave

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My head hurts!

Edited by turbodave (09/11/10 06:44 PM)

It cured my addiction until the following day. Then I just wanted to get better at it. So I actually feel more inclined to do it again so I can get it right. So I guess I will never be cured.

Thanks for the reply. The complaints from the management were a little ridiculous. Next time I run into this situation I am gonna take your advice. Run sound from the side of the stage. It would have made the band happier if there monitor mix was correct first. Lesson learned!


The best part is it can only get better. It sure can't get any worse. I hope?

Sounds like a dream gig to me!

Seriously, that sort of crap happens all too often at the lower end of the scale. It's one reason why you want to get moving up to better gigs.

But at least it's the sort of thing that gives you "experience". A few such gigs can be a good thing, as long as they don't just make you give up. They teach you to think on your feet, they teach you to be prepared, they teach you what can go wrong, they teach you to be wary of promising too much (eg. offering a recording from the desk), etc. But you don't want too many of them!

It was a dream alright! If I have more dreams like this please smack me in the face!

I realize that local low end stuff is going to suck. I didn't realize or fathom that is would ever suck that bad. But I didn't walk out. I did the best I can with what I had. I would rather completely botch a small gig and work my way up that mess up a gig that really matters.

The experience I learned from this is going to stick with me for a long,long,long time! Being a tech guy looking back I was unprepared. I know better now. I have another gig with these guys this weekend and will be much more prepared for this one. Same kind of bar but again, "We can set up at 6". So we will see how it goes. Not getting paid for the last one stinks but I need the experience and you just have to start somewhere.

You have my sympathies!

Do let us know how you get on next week.

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It wasn't me!
(Well, actually, it probably was)

why didn't you get paid?

>

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planet nine
lincoln, uk.

Everyone around you will always try to convince you that everything will run smoothly. Don't listen to them. There are limitations to what you can do and even experienced people would either struggle at what you where dealt with or walk away when things started going pear shaped.

You have to be prepared to stand your ground and tell people the way it is. If it takes an hour to set up and you've been offered half an hour then obviously something is going to go wrong. You find out who has the weight and tell them. Either get the stage emptied or your pulling the gig. You'd be amazed how things like that get things moving. You don't have to abusive but just firm (otherwise you'll probably get the opposite reaction!). You'd do the same in any other line of business.

The biggest wake up call I got was when playing in a band many years ago at a festival. We were playing one of the smaller stages and needed to set-up and do a quick sound check. All the engineers etc were nowhere to be seen. By the time I managed to find a member of staff I was quite wound up to say the least, as we thought we were going to miss our slot. So I basically lost my rag and said we were going to pack up and head off home. He got on the radio and within minutes there were people everywhere sorting stuff out.

Obviously it is always best to work through a problem and try your best to get it sorted but there are times when you need to point out that either you get help or there are going to be certain compromises! (i.e. shite sound, feedback, bad monitor mixes etc).

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I met a strange lady, she made me nervous; she took me in and gave me breakfast

No money?! As the soundman for something like this, you should *always* be getting an equal band-member's share. That's the standard rate for small gigs. Larger gigs you can do a fixed fee instead, but generally a band-member's share for a small gig comes out at less than minimum wage anyway.

And if the band were doing this for nothing, I suspect most people would have walked if the event organiser/manager had treated them like that. It's not about being prima donnas, it's about refusing to be doormats. Or at the very least, say "we're booked to play until 12, and it's up to you when we start". Hell, even for money it's not worth being treated like that, especially at pub-gig rates.

As regards the recording, the standard line has to be "if I have time". The gig comes first, and if everything goes to worms then the recording is the *very* last thing you look at.

Anyway, sounds like you did a decent job in a really crappy situation. And "that which does not kill us..."

Hi, TJ and welcome.

Mucho sympathy for your experience. There are some positives you can take from it though. The next time someone dangles a nice shiny piece of kit in front of you you'll know not to rely on it (snake) without having used it in a combat situation. Once everybody's smiling you can experiment with the new toys to your heart's content. In the case of the snake I suppose half an hour with a cheap cable tester (Behringer, etc.) in would have been the one, but we live and learn.

Also, the bonus of working for peanuts/free is that you always have the nuclear option of "you've had your money's worth, now f*@# off".

Unprofessional I know but sometimes knowing you could if you wanted keeps you positive.

Sounds like you could have done with a simpler system, by the way. Maybe less is more.

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Ohm's Law states, "Your PA isn't as powerful as you think it is".

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No money?! As the soundman for something like this, you should *always* be getting an equal band-member's share. That's the standard rate for small gigs. Larger gigs you can do a fixed fee instead, but generally a band-member's share for a small gig comes out at less than minimum wage anyway.

And if the band were doing this for nothing, I suspect most people would have walked if the event organiser/manager had treated them like that. It's not about being prima donnas, it's about refusing to be doormats.

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While I wouldn't disagree with any of this I would qualify it by pointing out that every experience is a learning one and it's better to be out doing something than sat at home talking about it. What you learn in these situations is never forgotten. Sometimes it's just unrealistic to be demanding minimum pay rates (these words are very difficult to write) so profit from the event in some other way... ...and have some fun. Sounds like you've got that one covered anyway.

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Ohm's Law states, "Your PA isn't as powerful as you think it is".

Nathan

I suspect the band leader didn't like how I handled the stage sound or whatever and decided to just bail at the end of the night. If it happens this week I can surely tell them to F#$^ off.

Big Kev

Good advice. If I see a situation forming like this again, I will just need to be the proactive one with a set and get things movin.

shufflebeat

Good advice as well. The Behringer cable tester is top on my to get list. Defiantly going to simplify this weekend.

Thank you

Grad

This weekend my focus is just to get it right. If I only get 2-5min to sound check I will be prepared much better this time. The recording is the last possible thing I am going to do if at all.

At least now I can say I am experienced.

Experienced, yes. Very experienced, no. Just remember that what goes wrong on one gig isn't what will go wrong on the next one - the moment you've kicked the dog away that's biting your balls, another one bites your bum! After the first few dozen gigs you'll see.

The very mention of a vocal processor makes me think that you are possibly more used to studio sound. In a situation like this you want things as simple as possible. If you don't have a digital desk, lose all the processing and effects until you get more experienced. Effects and processing always seem to be the downfall of inexperienced engineers. You will often get better results without them.

James.

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JRP Music - Audio Mastering and Restoration.
http://www.jrpmusic.net

James Perrett

You are correct sir. I am way more used to studio sound. This is one reason why I want to get out there and more familiar with live sound and live situations. I agree a super simple rig would be much better but these guys insisted on the effects. There were 5 effects processors in total. To me it's ridiculous for a small bar/club. But it's there rig. They just want someone to run it. This doesn't mean the next time I will actually use the effects. If it was my rig then I would have a little more say in what goes and what stays. Live and learn. I lived and I certainly learned.

Thanks for the advice.

Quote techjunkie:

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It cured my addiction until the following day. Then I just wanted to get better at it. So I actually feel more inclined to do it again so I can get it right. So I guess I will never be cured.

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Good on you - am sure as you build up more experience you'll sort all the technical issues and learn to deal with the unhelpful management etc

If you know you're right, then you are - all the best and good luck.

Did the band get paid?

If so, in the near-impossible circumstances you describe, I see no reason why the band should be enriched by not paying you.

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Dynamite with a laser beam...

Find out where he lives, invoice him.

>

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planet nine
lincoln, uk.

I don't know for sure. I didn't see money exchange hands from the club manager to the band leader. But I would assume, that since the band leader and the manager were chatting for some time after the gig that this is when the money exchanged hands. He came back out of the club and quickly bolted. It was clear before the gig that I would get paid X amount. Granted it was pocket change but if you were told you would get paid X then you would expect to at the end of the night. If it was understood that I would work for free, which I would now since I am not very experienced, then it would be fine.

Another lesson learned.

Stand your ground; don't emphasise your lack of live experience; explain that you did the best possible with the equipment available and the situation and timeslot given. In short you have been more professional than the bandleader in leaving without even explaining why he hasn't paid you.

I'm quite prepared to join you on you next gig with them so I can point out how shite he is from a professional and very experienced context

>

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planet nine
lincoln, uk.

I have done loads of gigs similar to what you describe but with slightly better results LOL.
I once turned up to a function at 3pm by request and could not set up til 12pm or make any noise and the band went on at 12:45 and i got paid less money than agreed-nowadays i would not be quite as accomodating
Wedding band gigs where there is a noise limiter are probably the worst and the audience sing-a-long tripping the limiter in every song so you have to completely turn off the FOH and just have monitors ,put a vinyl record matt on the snare , beg the band to turn down and stand on a chair all night pushing noise limiter buttons and rushing to the kitchen and untripping fuses.Also you get drunken audience members doing bizarre things like balancing a glass of wine on the aperture of the HF horn on a wedge or mistaking the wedding video camera man's ambient ceiling mics for the noise limiter mic and detaching them but in doing so pulling all the overhead xlr leads down which get entangled in the decorations etc
Once you have done a few quick set up gigs like this ,you will learn that the trick is to pare down the amount of kit you use -maybe daisy chaining the monitors,use all self powered speakers, forget using a sub just run a bit of kick through the wedges[as long as they are fairly decent] , do a vocals/kick/bass/keyboard/acc gt mono mix only and using a mix wiz or similar with built in reverb and just use one stereo 31 band graphic and no comps /gates
Its best to forget multicores ,recording,complicated IEM's at this level of gigging as you tend to take your eye off the main job of giving the audience a clear vocal mix with no feedback. Prep the system before the performance eliminating any feedback issues by talking into one mic and duplicating that eq/level on every vocal channel.
You will find that these type of gigs throw up unexpected problems like bad electrical power or shared low power generators with the ovens and lights .Last minute furniture/dancefloor/stage removal is also a bugbear .
Experience and reliable quality equipment is everything in this business
Always carry a cable tester/torch /gaffa tape /screw drivers/plyers/spare DI boxes /mini jack to mono jack leads / spare 4 way plugboards / spare xlr leads and a hi-hat clutch

Thanks Nathan. I appreciate the support.

Marksound

Thank you for the advice and colorful stories. I will be sure too add your suggested tools to my must have tool box. I made a pile of adapters this week already for these guys. I hate being unprepared. Oh and I labeled my cables properly on both ends! But you can't have everything off the bat. Your advice on the vocal channels is pure gold. Thank you! I will be using this tip for sure.

Thank you everyone for your advice it is greatly appreciated.

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While I wouldn't disagree with any of this I would qualify it by pointing out that every experience is a learning one and it's better to be out doing something than sat at home talking about it.

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Sure - I've spent the last 2-3 years doing free work regularly for a friend who runs a couple of live venues. Her finances are enough on the edge that I wasn't going to crap on her, especially when I was enjoying it. And the bands almost all weren't paid anyway.

But if you're hired by the band, and it's an event, and the band's getting paid for it, then you really should be getting cash in your hand at the end of the night. Unless you did sign up for a free trial, of course, but even then they shouldn't expect more than one free gig out of you if you're doing a reasonably OK job.

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While I wouldn't disagree with any of this I would qualify it by pointing out that every experience is a learning one and it's better to be out doing something than sat at home talking about it.

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Sure - I've spent the last 2-3 years doing free work regularly for a friend who runs a couple of live venues. Her finances are enough on the edge that I wasn't going to crap on her, especially when I was enjoying it. And the bands almost all weren't paid anyway.

But if you're hired by the band, and it's an event, and the band's getting paid for it, then you really should be getting cash in your hand at the end of the night. Unless you did sign up for a free trial, of course, but even then they shouldn't expect more than one free gig out of you if you're doing a reasonably OK job.

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Quite right, too. A deal's a deal. Strictly speaking even if the band didn't get paid that's not my problem. In the circumstances, though I'd not spend too much time or headspace chasing peanuts.

I would, however:

Speak to the band leader (calmly) as though the deal was still my understanding "with everything going on we forgot to sort out my money".

If the guy is not forthcoming hint that this is a bad way to start what might be an ongoing arrangement with his band being so good and you being such a fan, etc.

Be very clear what were the shortcomings of the gear and how difficult the management had made things for everyone, band and you (Good chance to deflect negative attention).

Outline how good the gig could have been. Include advice mentioned here, simpler system, etc.

All this is much easier to argue however when you have robust confidence in your own skills and experience to back it up.

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Ohm's Law states, "Your PA isn't as powerful as you think it is".

Shufflebeat

You make some good points. I am going to hold my tongue till the end of the gig this weekend. Then see what happens. If everything falls apart again then I should be able to deal with it a little better. Half the crap that was connected last week is just gonna look pretty this weekend. But if everything goes off well without any major problems and I don't get paid. Then I shall approach him. It will give me a little more to work with having a gig that went over smoothly. He will be in a better mood too.

You survived - under some very difficult circs - that is an achievement all by itself.

Your first time out, you have to expect some screw ups. You were then given a raw deal all ends up on top. The fact that you hung in there and kept working on it, and also that you had sense to leave well enough alone, is laudible.

Not getting paid really sucks though - as soon as you can, find better people to work for. If you blow that off, remember that no good deed ever goes unpunished.

With my band I *always* pay the sound guy even if the band doesn't get paid, and even if he's a mate and you're doing him a favour by giving him experience. And even if he does a rubbish job (if he does a rubbish job, you just don't use him again). This applies no matter how small and crappy the gig.

Firstly, it's a legal, or at least a moral, issue -- you promised to pay them, so you should. Secondly, get a rep for not paying your soundmen and you might find them hard to come by. Thirdly (unless you're very small-scale), the soundman is a really important part of the band and should be looked after (but they're not actually in the band, which is why you have to pay them).

I've even paid soundguys for helping out with "dress rehearsals" where we have gone to a local club or hall and set up all the gear to rehearse in a more realistic environment and to check that everything is working properly.

I also pay soundguys who do nothing but turn up just before the gig, twiddle the knobs and go away, although they don't get as much as the guys who help lug gear in and set up and break down afterwards.

So if I was you I would blow these guys off right now, and tell them to stick their 5 FX units up their behinds. But it's clear that you want to give them another chance. Make sure that's their last chance.

Scramble

Thank you for the advice. Nice to hear someone is taking care of there sound man even if they are not the best at it. I did help them lug everything in and out. Setup, tear down and pack it back up. Everyone in the band did as well too. I did help from the start to the very end. The town I live in isn't too large so to find work is tough. Getting a bad rep isn't a good idea either. What goes around comes around. Just starting out in live sound I don't want to make it seem like I flake out easily.

A dress rehearsal is a brilliant idea! I have a feeling if I mentioned it that it is not going to happen. I would prefer it. It would show all the flaws in the system in a zero pressure environment and they can all get worked out. Learning that you don't have everything you need at a gig is pretty bad when it's your rig. Before a product gets sold it's tested right? I am amazed at how many people are at the finish line without figuring how to get there. E.g. connectors, cabling, DI's, routing etc. etc.

I am giving this one more chance this weekend and if I don't get paid and it goes over well or not, I will part ways. That way I can say and they will know.

1. I acted professional and didn't loose my cool.
2. Stuck with a situation under crap cirs.
3. Did what I said I would do. This to me is the most important.

5 FX units is a little ridiculous. Maybe they should sell all of them and get a board with everything that works and has a built in reverb? Simple!

This Weeks update.

So I said I would update how this gig went. Overall this gig went super smooth! We had ample time to set up. I had ample time to do what I needed to to and connect everything properly. I was able to be out in the crowd area instead of right by the PA. Most importantly, we had the time to do a proper sound check! I took some advice form this thread and sound checked a vocal channel and duplicated the settings on all the channels. Awesome by the way! Thank you. I brought the tools suggested in this thread, extra DI's, cables etc. Needed all my DI's and all my extra cables to make things work. We had a few cable problems but nothing that wasn't fixed in a short period of time. The sound check for the most part was organized and I had a talk back mic working so it went rather quickly. The band had a monitor mix that they were really happy with. I almost fell of my chair when one guy told me he needed to be turned down. He is usually the me, me, me guy.

After about a 15min sound check we started and after a song or two everything was dialed in and I really didn't have to do much. There we some effects processors looking rather pretty that evening if you know what I mean. Overall I am much happier than last weekend. I had everything as simple as possible and got the groups right. I could then monitor the main output in my headphones. The band could hear themselves and there were multiple people saying they liked the sound. I wasn't pushing it to ear piercing levels. Just enough so if your in the dance area you can feel it. 10' back was about 95db. Yes, I do carry a db meter. At the bar people could talk. The managers at this place were really happy with that.

The best part. I finally got paid! So I am chalking the first experience up as a learning experience. That experience taught me to simply be more prepared. This week it paid off.

Thank you everyone for your advice. I really do appreciate it. I can't wait to do the next gig!

Glad to hear your second gig went better. More experience and the situation of the first gig would be easier to deal with.

I have done a fair bit of live sound in a specialist music scene. The important bits I have learnt are.
1. Get to know the gear. Set it up and tear it down a few times. The band rehearse their bit - why shouldn't you?
2. The vocal channel is the money channel. That should be clear and audible. In a stress situation like the first gig, the only thing though FOH for the first song with me would have been the lead vocal. Other stuff can come as needed later.
3. It isn't a recording. Like the band dropping the odd note you may make the odd slip. It has gone. Live with it. Perfection is rarely possible. Feel matters more than polish.
3. Keep monitors as low as you can get away with. This may mean asking the band to turn down a little. It should be unusual at bar gig size venues that someone standing in front of their own amp should need themselves in the monitors. Amp stands help with this - lift it and aim it at their head.
4. Keep sounds in monitors as dry as possible - certainly vocals in monitors should not have compressors on them.
5. Learn to coil cables. It only takes a little while to get the hang, then takes no longer than any other method of putting them away, but they come out so much easier.
5. Carry spare cables. I used to just carry *lots* of 5M XLR leads. I had a few shorter coloured ones for round the drums so I could put the mics in place then just pop green in the kick channel, blue for snare, red for right OH and purple for left. While 5M may seem a little short to get across a stage, just join two. you will also not have too much extra cable to tuck away.

Very pleased to hear this one went so much better
Just remember you're still going to get bad ones occasionally - so don't get complacent

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It wasn't me!
(Well, actually, it probably was)

I am sure the will be plenty of mistakes or tough gigs in the future but at least I know now what a good gig feels like. From this gig I have a list of must haves and needs for the next one. So each one will build on the next. Hopefully if the band stays together and I can still get work in a year or two I will be much better at this with a more robust engineers tool box.

I already mentioned that I would like to do a full gear gig rehearsal. We will see how that goes. I fully agree I should practice as the sound guy setting up. But, it's not my gear so I am at the mercy of when I can use it.

Quote Cattytown:

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Glad to hear your second gig went better. More experience and the situation of the first gig would be easier to deal with.

I have done a fair bit of live sound in a specialist music scene. The important bits I have learnt are.
1. Get to know the gear. Set it up and tear it down a few times. The band rehearse their bit - why shouldn't you?
2. The vocal channel is the money channel. That should be clear and audible. In a stress situation like the first gig, the only thing though FOH for the first song with me would have been the lead vocal. Other stuff can come as needed later.
3. It isn't a recording. Like the band dropping the odd note you may make the odd slip. It has gone. Live with it. Perfection is rarely possible. Feel matters more than polish.
3. Keep monitors as low as you can get away with. This may mean asking the band to turn down a little. It should be unusual at bar gig size venues that someone standing in front of their own amp should need themselves in the monitors. Amp stands help with this - lift it and aim it at their head.
4. Keep sounds in monitors as dry as possible - certainly vocals in monitors should not have compressors on them.
5. Learn to coil cables. It only takes a little while to get the hang, then takes no longer than any other method of putting them away, but they come out so much easier.
5. Carry spare cables. I used to just carry *lots* of 5M XLR leads. I had a few shorter coloured ones for round the drums so I could put the mics in place then just pop green in the kick channel, blue for snare, red for right OH and purple for left. While 5M may seem a little short to get across a stage, just join two. you will also not have too much extra cable to tuck away.

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Thank you very much for the tips.

+1 for colour-coding cables by length or indeed by type e.g. for specials.

If you start with say an all-black wardrobe, put some colour coded markers on each end (small cable ties for instance)

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Dynamite with a laser beam...

Nice one! It's gigs like that which make you forget all the lousy ones.

Maybe have one of the guys help you set up.

Or come up with a system.

I always hook things up in this order.

FOH
Monitors
Vocal mica
Instruments

I also tear down in the reverse order. So while there might be what looks like a big tangle of extra cables, it all comes apart nicely. Over/under all the cables when doing them up. If you have a spotty cord during the gig, mute the channel, undo both ends, leave it there and run the new ones.

I always wire up mic cables, starting at the mic. I leave a loop or so extra at the bass, then run it back to the snake. I also bring everything across one side, or around the edges on both sides, if it's a bigger stage. I don't run cables straight back across the stage. Less tripping hazards.

Good luck, learn from each job!

Vocal MICS


Not mica


:facepalm:

I always ask the band what has changed or is going to change that you haven't told me about

Always try and keep i pair of E9's in the van as well now due to about 4 months ago where a band said the gig was for 600+ people.... Well we brought the C7 along with us only to be shown we were working in a room no bigger than 20M Sq !!!!

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PA Hire Surrey
Lighting Hire Surrey

What a nightmare. I hate [ ****** ] gigs! These people take the piss. Because they know bands will fall for the abuse.

Unless there was a roomful of people who have to have a band, like a wedding or birthday party ... it would not be fair on all those people.

I would have said I won't do this again: Not what was contracted, and a verbal or email agreement is a contract. Band be warned!

But for a roomful of pubbers/clubbers, no bloody way.

Good Greif. Apparently the word sh1t is not allowed. What is the world coming to?

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PA stuff on FB


Edited by Guy Johnson (23/10/11 02:03 PM)

"I am sure people reading this know this story before they read it"

Yep.

Haven't read the whole thread but yes I've had an experience slightly similar to this - not quite as bad, but lots in common.

Apologies for the obviousness of some of these and the matter-of-opinion-ness of others:

NEVER EVER use gear for the first time on a gig, always test it out beforehand. If it's stuff mixer-onwards, set up the whole rig at home and play an ipod or CD through a couple of channels to test stuff out. A test disc is a good thing as you need dry vocals, dry drums to test reverbs, maybe test tones etc. Choose source material accordingly. Basically, practice the setup just like a musician practises their licks - go through the motions of the gig.

On the gig, defend yourself, e.g. if some high-handed twat says you're not allowed on stage to set up, make it clear that means you WON'T be able to start on time. He may be the Highest Sultan of The High Council of the Highest Inner Sphincter of High Twatland and you may be the lowliest little ant on earth, but a band CANNOT set up in 10 minutes. If he/she gets shirty, as though being surly is going to change reality, just be prepared to laugh.

I realize this might be impossible for this kind of gig, but get something in writing, e.g. print out the email telling you what time you're supposed to set up, or make sure you keep the text message - have it ready on the gig so you can point out the relevant detail when the boss prevents you setting up. Give it the "this is what we agreed" vibe.

If they insist you go right in front of one of the FOH speakers, or out of the way where you're not a nuisance, insist you need to be at a decent distance where you hear what the punters hear. Nobody will remember that you were prevented from doing a decent job, everybody will remember if you did a rubbish one. I once got stuck on the stage with the band cos the powers-that-were didn't want a sweaty unwashed member of the peasant class i.e. me, mixing (sic!) with the posh dainty punters - eager to please I went on the stage and had an evening of people yelling in my ear that they couldn't hear this and that. Since then, if they've insisted where to put me, I've suggested where they can stick it. Politely of course but with a reserve of assertiveness if needed.

Start with a stage mix, THEN do the FOH. Happy band, happy gig, whether FOH sound is bolux or fantastic. FOH can be tweaked during the gig because you can hear it, stage mix can't be tweaked cos you can't, so get monitors right first.

Depending on the style and volume of music and size of room, you may well be better off thinking of it as vocal PA, and only add other stuff that needs it - some instruments (e.g. typically drums) may not get in there at all. You might end up feeling you've lugged a huge rig there for nothing, but who cares, don't amplify stuff that doesn't need it just because it's rigged up. In the studio I build it up from drums/bass upwards, on a gig it's vocals/solo instruments downwards. Purely matter of opinion there - but I've had no disasters of that sort since I started doing it that way.

Find ways of making it very quickly and succinctly clear to band and management alike what is your responsibility and what isn't. Singers and punters alike will say stuff like "it's too boomy" - if that turns out to mean the room is too reverberant, make sure they know that you're neither an architect nor a builder and have no intention of getting out the wrecking ball to re-design the room.

Remember if you're using headphones that they're VERY misleading as lots of sounds spills into them, especially bass, even supposedly soundproof ones, skewing the mix that you're hearing. NEVER use headphones to try and give you an idea of what the mix is somewhere else in the room - e.g. when I got put on stage with the band I tried to do a headphone mix to hear what the punters were hearing down below - they got lots of reverberant boomy bass, they couldn't hear the vocals - I was oblivious, with a beautiful but irrelevant mix in the cans. I recorded the stereo off the desk, which was almost vocals only, whereas on the night the punters were saying they couldn't hear the vocals.

Sometimes there's only vocals in the PA, they're already too loud or feeding back, yet guitars and other stuff are drowning them out and punters are blaming you for the bad mix - that's when you have to ask players to turn down!!! Good luck, hope the scars heal up!

Mixing requires technical and musical know-how - sadly it also requires dealing with people that are trying, for a variety of reasons, to prevent you doing a decent job. Swat these out of the way and you've got a fighting chance. I don't mean to sound negative - merely saying don't allow yourself to be pushed down to the lowest priority. A bit of friendly swagger helps - I'm crap at that myself but I've seen sound guys that have a great way of exuding confidence, people generally lap it up, especially management, it means they get their way more of the time, and do a better job regardless how good or bad they are in the first place.

Quote Big Kev:

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Everyone around you will always try to convince you that everything will run smoothly. Don't listen to them. There are limitations to what you can do and even experienced people would either struggle at what you where dealt with or walk away when things started going pear shaped.

You have to be prepared to stand your ground and tell people the way it is. If it takes an hour to set up and you've been offered half an hour then obviously something is going to go wrong. You find out who has the weight and tell them. Either get the stage emptied or your pulling the gig. You'd be amazed how things like that get things moving. You don't have to abusive but just firm (otherwise you'll probably get the opposite reaction!). You'd do the same in any other line of business.

The biggest wake up call I got was when playing in a band many years ago at a festival. We were playing one of the smaller stages and needed to set-up and do a quick sound check. All the engineers etc were nowhere to be seen. By the time I managed to find a member of staff I was quite wound up to say the least, as we thought we were going to miss our slot. So I basically lost my rag and said we were going to pack up and head off home. He got on the radio and within minutes there were people everywhere sorting stuff out.

Obviously it is always best to work through a problem and try your best to get it sorted but there are times when you need to point out that either you get help or there are going to be certain compromises! (i.e. shite sound, feedback, bad monitor mixes etc).

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Threatening to pull the gig is ok if you're the big attraction or there's a risk they'll still have to pay you if you prove it's their breach of contract that caused you not to play... but depending on the type of gig they might well not give the slightest toss whether you play or not! Use that one at your discretion.

Also "compromises" such as bad monitor mixes will mean nothing to most people, e.g. someone who's got priorities such as how much beer they'll sell or how pretty the flower arrangements look etc. - threatening them with a punitive dose of bad monitor mix is hardly likely to get them quivering with apprehension. Giving them the evil eye while speaking very sweetly sometimes helps!

What can also help when dealing with someone stopping you setting up or insisting on something unhelpful is to go on the assumption that what's bad for the band is bad for them too - it won't con a pub landlord into thinking he gives a toss whether the band goes on or not but he'd have to say in so many words "I couldn't give a toss" - until that point you keep asserting the premise that we're all in it together. "we" need to get the band on which means setting up when agreed, otherwise the punters will think what a rubbish pub, not what a rubbish band. I didn't become a musician to play psycho games but I've learned they can be essential!

I bet I'm not the only SOSer that:

*reads thread title*

*gives empathising nod*

*feels slightly smug*

*remembers own first solo live show*

*begins fear sweats*

Good on you dude,

Mash

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www.matthewcracknell.com

Yea, first solo gigs are **ALWAYS** horror stories.

Ironically audio actually gets very much easier once you start playing proper venues with proper kit (and actual, competent, musicians), the nightmares are the acoustically naff rooms with the knackered SP2s that you find in pubs and community centres up and down the land, and of course these are the rigs that everyone cuts their teeth on.

A good room with properly thought out rig from someone respectable (And no, that does NOT mean Mackie), is orders of magnitude easier to get a result in then the local working mans club with the rig 'designed' by disco dave and sourced from phonic.

Regards, Dan.

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Audiophiles use phono leads because they are unbalanced people!

Using a venue's gear you often get a load of "bad workman blames his tools" -type comments, which are easy to reply to - "these aren't my tools!".

Ah, it's not so bad. We all want to be in control, but the situations you're presented with when you're starting out never allows that. You get asked to do sound in an hours time with a setup you've never seen before, end up with no real sound check, etc.

At the end of the day, you were in a small venue and you amplified the sound for the fledgling band so that it was vaguely intelligible. You weren't getting paid. Job done .

No point giving advice for those kind of situations. You just have to make it work, if you're unprepared then you improvise. If you don't mess it up, then you're a decent engineer! I would only reiterate what somebody else said. If you're doing it on the fly, get everything working, get your levels & monitor levels right, and only then worry about effects / processing - and only if there's no risk of screwing it up.

this should be a sticky!

there are so many common scenarios, and excellent advice that everyone new to the live sound world should most definitely read!

I read it with a fine balance of, 'so glad I don't do that anymore/so wish I was still doing that!'

move onto the musical/theatre productions - then the fun really starts!

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I honestly think you ought to sit down calmly, take a stress pill and think things over
Twitter

It's funny you know, because PA work is not my main income, I am generally more relaxed with artists and promoters etc..and can afford to be a bit more aggressive if things go awry. If you know you can do a good job with gear that works (my own) and things start getting on top, I lay down the law! Its amazing how often people comply when faced with chilled out arrogance! (my way or the highway). I had a job recently where the guitarist/ backing vocalist was asking me to turn him up all the time, and then would proceed to scream into the mic with his mouth over the grill (gain backed off). The third time this happened I screamed back from the desk ( I was only about 10 yards away) " I will if you stop F&%(ing screaming over the mic"......I received applause from the guys standing around me! with comments of "attitude man, I like it" Dave

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My head hurts!