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ken long



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Yamaha DX Series: School Me
      #876507 - 22/11/10 02:10 PM
OK, I have a TX-7 which is as near this range of synths as I've come.

I'd like to get one, but it needs to be multitimbral and have some nice patches including *that* DX bass and some good keys straight out the box. Not sure how to do the patch loading on the TX-7.

What's a realistic budget?

Thanks for looking.





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The Elf
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Re: Yamaha DX Series: School Me new [Re: ken long]
      #876512 - 22/11/10 02:28 PM
The TX-802 is still my favourite. It's patch compatible (sys-ex) with the DX7/TX7 (I know, because I ported all my old patches over), is 8-part multi-timbral, 16-note polyphonic and even has 8 separate outputs. Clean audio output too.

I typically use mine as a pair of 8-voice DX7/TX7s, addressing each on a separate MIDI channel (you can patch select each independently, as if you had a pair of TX7s) and sending them separately from the main A/B outputs.

Mine is still in my rack after all these years and still gets a fair bit of use, though I have to admit that FM8 occasionally usurps it.

I've seen them go for under a hundred quid on occcasions, but I've not studied their second-hand price recently.

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nathanscribe



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Re: Yamaha DX Series: School Me new [Re: ken long]
      #876516 - 22/11/10 02:38 PM
The TX81Z is also multitimbral (8 part I think, to 2 outputs) and has a couple of nice features - you only get 4-op, but with 8 waveforms instead of the usual sine-only. But the parameters are a little reduced in comparison with the DX-7, and even with multiple waveforms, you're probably better off with a 6-op sine model. The keyboard version of the TX81Z was the DX11 (which has an aftertouch sensitive keyboard).

It does come with "that" bass sound though - patch C15 from what I remember...

I recently picked up an SY77 which is nice indeed - full 6-op FM with some extra bits & bobs, and samples (or should that be ROMples?) which can be used within the FM model. Haven't tried that yet though. I believe the SY77, SY99 and TG77 were the FM-capable models of the SY/TG range, whereas the 22 (and 33), 35, 55, and 85 were sample-based.

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ken long



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Re: Yamaha DX Series: School Me new [Re: ken long]
      #876525 - 22/11/10 03:05 PM
Thanks fellas!

Doh! Sorry, should have mentioned I want a keyboard, not a rack. Preferably something which will send velocity and hopefully, aftertouch.

ken

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vinyl_junkie
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Re: Yamaha DX Series: School Me new [Re: ken long]
      #876542 - 22/11/10 04:20 PM
Ohh you want DX do ya ma' boy... Forget the rest and check the DX-100/27, these may lack some of the things you are after like after touch and multi-timbral capabilities but what you gain is one hell of a sound that from my experience the others lack due to the fact that they use better output devices and convertors also being 4op means it's a piece of cake to program not to mention every function has it's own button..it really is a doodle to get great results and pant shitting bass out of them.
I love the DX-7 mk1 me I do...but the 100 trumps them all just for the dirt and sound. I have a DX-100 and TX-81Z (kinda 100 on steroids) but the 81Z lacks all the character of the 100, I call it a glorified paper weight..it's like the difference between a DCO synth and a proper VCO synth from the late 70's
Get a DX-27 cos it's the same thing but cheaper (the mainboard of the 100 has 27/100 written on it) The DX-21 is slightly improved in sound...we don't want that! lol but it does have some cool features..it's bi-timbral and has a analogue chorus and you can layer patches..but it lacks the squeegee rubber buttons of the 100 which are so nice LOL

transmission over and out...your green DX nut job hahaah


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vinyl_junkie
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Re: Yamaha DX Series: School Me new [Re: ken long]
      #876545 - 22/11/10 04:26 PM
You could be lucky and find one in the skip like this one though lol


Just sampled it all up in my S-3200XL, well my patches any way before returning it to my mate, I had 3 DX-100's which all either broke on me or gave them away not realizing in 2010 some mad idiot will pay 200+ quid for one on ebay
What is funny is the DX-27 still sells for like 50 quid

Oh also "Solid Bass" is the famous bass patch but in the TX-81Z it's called "Lately Bass" and sound different (not worse but just different)
Solid Bass as heard on 10000 records but most notably for me Orbital's Chime


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ken long



Joined: 21/01/08
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Re: Yamaha DX Series: School Me new [Re: ken long]
      #876570 - 22/11/10 07:47 PM
Nice. Thanks for the input VJ. I'm really looking for something multitimbral to sequence from my MPC though. There's a DX11 on an ad somewhere for £125 BIN. Is this a good price? I really like the sound of my TX but I really need keys having just forfeited my Juno. I need them as a controller for other things - hence the need for velocity and aftertouch.

ken

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Edited by ken long (22/11/10 07:48 PM)


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pocklefo



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Re: Yamaha DX Series: School Me new [Re: ken long]
      #876590 - 22/11/10 09:17 PM


No Keys , but multitimbral, the FB-01 is often overlooked.

I picked one up for £30 just for the solid bass type preset.

Check out the You Tube video at 4:11

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLXoxs65xTI


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vinyl_junkie
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Re: Yamaha DX Series: School Me new [Re: ken long]
      #876592 - 22/11/10 09:45 PM
Nah dude needs a keyboard...and also no offense but who just wants to play a bunch of presets? Solid bass is a nice sound but I wouldn't buy a synth just for that.
The great thing about these keyboards is being able to program them very easily and tweak while you are playing. (What on a DX?! yea on a DX! you read right lol)
If all you wanted was the Solid Bass patch you should of asked some one with one and I'm sure they would of given you some free samples of each key and saved you 30 quid.

The DX-11 should be cool we had a similar one at school back in the 90's it was a YS-200, not sure what the main differences are but the one thing with the YS was you couldn't fully edit the synth from the front panel.
Have you thought about a DX-7mk2? The reason I don't mention the mk1 is cos the below par MIDI spec unless you modify it..also it never transmitted full note velocity (127) even though it was velocity sensitive it could only transmit like 110 or something

re 4OP sounds

here are some DX-100 sounds being tweaked
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDrZfmZuebs

and at 5.49 DX-100 sampled in the Akai doing very warm BOC like goodness

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hN2je75TVaQ


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nathanscribe



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Re: Yamaha DX Series: School Me new [Re: ken long]
      #876606 - 22/11/10 11:06 PM
Quote ken long:

There's a DX11 on an ad somewhere for £125 BIN. Is this a good price?




Not so long ago I would have said it was too much, but these things have started to climb a little in the last year or so. They're not high, but still... I'd say you could probably get one cheaper in the free-ads, though it's not overmuch for an eBay BIN, particularly if it's in nice nick.

The old FM stuff can often be had for peanuts though, so it might be worth holding out for a cheaper one if you're not desperate.

Of all the 4-ops, I'd say the DX11 would be the better choice - full size keys, AT, multitimbral, and though it lacks the cachet and cuteness of the 100, it's a better featured synth.

For not too much more you could grab a DX-7. I've not used an original, but I hear they have decent keyboards and the later versions (7ii, FD) have improved spec. 6-op FM is a lot more flexible than 4-op. Have a listen to some demos of a typical unit of each type and see which suits you more.

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ken long



Joined: 21/01/08
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Re: Yamaha DX Series: School Me new [Re: vinyl_junkie]
      #876612 - 22/11/10 11:19 PM
Quote:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hN2je75TVaQ




The best bit is at 00.04.45 when you scratch your ass.








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BJG145



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Re: Yamaha DX Series: School Me new [Re: nathanscribe]
      #876648 - 23/11/10 09:03 AM
Quote nathanscribe:

6-op FM is a lot more flexible than 4-op.



Agreed, and you'll find vastly more patches available on the Internet for the DX7 than the DX9, say. I think £125 is too expensive for a DX11.

You could also look out for an SY77 - more flexible than a DX7 and backwardly compatible. But they often go for less because they're not so well-known and people like the classic membrane look.


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The Elf
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Re: Yamaha DX Series: School Me new [Re: BJG145]
      #876657 - 23/11/10 09:18 AM
I never really ‘got’ 4-op FM. It always sounded like the audio equivalent of kraft cheese slices to the 6-ops’ Cathedral City extra mature.

One of my recurring nightmares is of being locked in a cell with only a DX21 for company...

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ZukanModerator
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Re: Yamaha DX Series: School Me new [Re: ken long]
      #876658 - 23/11/10 09:27 AM
Ken dude,

Get a DX 1 and stop dikkin around.

Alternatively, and if you can compromise on the keybd thingy, get a FS1R. Trust me, bar the DX1, it blows the rest out of the water.

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ken long



Joined: 21/01/08
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Re: Yamaha DX Series: School Me new [Re: Zukan]
      #876662 - 23/11/10 09:40 AM
You got one laying around there Zuke?

I'll come over and pick it up. £50 sound OK?



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ZukanModerator
Zukan


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Re: Yamaha DX Series: School Me new [Re: ken long]
      #876667 - 23/11/10 09:53 AM
Quote ken long:

You got one laying around there Zuke?

I'll come over and pick it up. £50 sound OK?






I used to.



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vinyl_junkie
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Re: Yamaha DX Series: School Me new [Re: Zukan]
      #876686 - 23/11/10 10:32 AM
Quote Zukan:

Ken dude,
Alternatively, and if you can compromise on the keybd thingy, get a FS1R. Trust me, bar the DX1, it blows the rest out of the water.




Agree on all accounts but programing the FS1R is like painting through a letterbox! Plus it's rather expensive now days..

Still I would love to have one in my rack

Edited by vinyl_junkie (23/11/10 10:32 AM)


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ZukanModerator
Zukan


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Re: Yamaha DX Series: School Me new [Re: vinyl_junkie]
      #876687 - 23/11/10 10:36 AM
Quote vinyl_junkie:

Quote Zukan:

Ken dude,
Alternatively, and if you can compromise on the keybd thingy, get a FS1R. Trust me, bar the DX1, it blows the rest out of the water.




Agree on all accounts but programing the FS1R is like painting through a letterbox! Plus it's rather expensive now days..

Still I would love to have one in my rack




There are a couple of editors that can make life easier.

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Samplecraze
Stretch That Note


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Lento



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Re: Yamaha DX Series: School Me new [Re: ken long]
      #876716 - 23/11/10 01:04 PM
I've had them all at one time or another (DX1 included) and the TX816 (which I still have) remains as my favourite.

If you need the Lately Bass patch for the TX7 (or FM7) PM me.

Lyn


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Shreddie



Joined: 16/01/08
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Re: Yamaha DX Series: School Me new [Re: Zukan]
      #876905 - 24/11/10 08:18 AM
Quote Zukan:

Quote vinyl_junkie:

Quote Zukan:

Ken dude,
Alternatively, and if you can compromise on the keybd thingy, get a FS1R. Trust me, bar the DX1, it blows the rest out of the water.




Agree on all accounts but programing the FS1R is like painting through a letterbox! Plus it's rather expensive now days..

Still I would love to have one in my rack




There are a couple of editors that can make life easier.



That's debatable in my view... Either way it's still an arse to program. Despite that though, it's still a fantastic synth... I'm happy I got mine when their s/h prices were about their lowest.

Other options for FM could be one or two of the SY series or even the Alesis Fusion. They have different implimentations to DX/TX style FM though.


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BJG145



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Re: Yamaha DX Series: School Me new [Re: Shreddie]
      #876907 - 24/11/10 08:31 AM
Quote Shreddie:

Other options for FM could be one or two of the SY series or even the Alesis Fusion. They have different implimentations to DX/TX style FM though.



Didn't know the Fusion had FM - I'd be interested in having a look at one of them. I like Alesis stuff. (Bit ugly though.)

There's a slightly bashed DX7 on Ebay here. Probably go for less than the £130 BIN.


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Shreddie



Joined: 16/01/08
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Re: Yamaha DX Series: School Me new [Re: BJG145]
      #877442 - 26/11/10 12:40 PM
Quote BJG145:

Didn't know the Fusion had FM - I'd be interested in having a look at one of them. I like Alesis stuff. (Bit ugly though.)



They look much worse in the pictures than they do in the flesh mate! The 8HD is the prettiest of the two IMO.

As for it's FM engine, it's extremely flexible indeed... 6op, freely configurable (no algorithms), a few waveforms to choose from etc etc... Very nice sounding too with an FM only polyphony of up to 240 voices! Also, in sample based patches, you can actually perform FM using samples... That can be rather (ahem) interesting... Sometimes you create something wonderful but most of the time it ends in cacophony!

Going back to the FM engine (though this actually applies to all the Fusion's synth engines), it's well worth setting up a few templates as the init patches are rather sparse. Because the Fusion is kinda semi-modular you have to build your synth in a way, this can be particularly time consuming for FM stuff as an init patch only has one operator IIRC, you have to add the rest and assign all their modulation routes, envelopes, LFO's etc yourself.

If you want to know more, feel free to semd me a PM.


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vinyl_junkie
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Re: Yamaha DX Series: School Me new [Re: ken long]
      #877447 - 26/11/10 01:20 PM
Wow I honestly didn't know the Fusion was that flexible, I always thought it was a good sounding flexible synth but never knew it would have 6 operators and freely configurable algorithms

Just wish some else would of designed the thing...it's one hell of a nasty ugly synth and although one shouldn't judge a book by it's cover..I just couldn't own something as gastly as the Fusion lol
Also no Rack=No go at the moment for me, got too many keyboards..

On the other hand I could hack owning a DX-7...wouldn't mind one, Eno made it sound lush...I like a challenge lol


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ken long



Joined: 21/01/08
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Re: Yamaha DX Series: School Me new [Re: ken long]
      #877454 - 26/11/10 01:39 PM
Seems hard to find anything at a decent price...


JD800 anyone?



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vinyl_junkie
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Re: Yamaha DX Series: School Me new [Re: ken long]
      #877464 - 26/11/10 01:56 PM
Quote ken long:

Seems hard to find anything at a decent price...


JD800 anyone?






Tell me about it!

Re JD-800, D-50 please lol


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tomafd



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Re: Yamaha DX Series: School Me new [Re: vinyl_junkie]
      #877475 - 26/11/10 02:27 PM
Quote vinyl_junkie:



On the other hand I could hack owning a DX-7...wouldn't mind one, Eno made it sound lush...I like a challenge lol





I think he's now entirely an FM7(or is it 8, now) man - in last year's documentary he attempted to fire up his old DX7 and it refused to work. Mine's also been in the flight case for quite a while- FM7 sounds 'bigger' and with a lot less noise on the output. I only get the original out if I want to do tweaks on the fly which don't seem to happen in quite the same way on FM7- apparently there are faults in the programming on the original which means it generates bizarre (and rather nice) artifacts on some parameter settings, especially if you're using really long release times. Certainly mine does some very weird [ ****** ] indeed at times, which really shouldn't be happening according to the parameter settings, but which are pretty interesting in an 'evolving pad' kind of way.

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himalaya



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Re: Yamaha DX Series: School Me new [Re: BJG145]
      #877536 - 26/11/10 06:02 PM
Quote BJG145:



You could also look out for an SY77 - more flexible than a DX7





The SY77/99/TG77 are so often neglected in FM/DX topics. The TG77 is especially useful in the studio as it has 8 outputs.

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Shreddie



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Re: Yamaha DX Series: School Me new [Re: vinyl_junkie]
      #877619 - 27/11/10 06:57 AM
Sorry guys, wandering off topic for a moment...

Quote vinyl_junkie:

Wow I honestly didn't know the Fusion was that flexible, I always thought it was a good sounding flexible synth but never knew it would have 6 operators and freely configurable algorithms



That's not the half of it... 8 Envolopes and 8 LFO's (5kHz max), all freely assignable in one of it's two, yes, TWO modulation matrices... One with 32 slots for the synth engine, another with 16 slots for the effects. Modualtors can modulate modulators and/or as many destinations as you have room for. There's also smoothing (lag processors basically) and 'tables' so that you can tailor the response of any modulator any way you like... Want a stepped LFO? No problem, you can make the steps play a sequence if you want. Want an envelope that steps in the beginning, then goes negative, then smoothly back up to positive as the value rises? You can do that too. Fancy setting up your knobs so that at when they're at their 'zero', they're at a preset value? I do that regularly. Another thing that is nice is that it's responsive to release velocity, you can use that in a number of ways... One that I recently did was for a rapid fire plucked sound... It'd trigger once when you pressed a key, then again when you released it... You can use the release velocity to add extra expression in the release of one shot sounds too obvoiusly.

Perhaps the best way to think of the Fusion is as a digital Andromeda, but with more flexibility in many respects and a little less in others. I'm lucky enough to have both and although they're very different, they're both superb if you like to experiment... Ideal for sound design.

Quote:

Just wish some else would of designed the thing...it's one hell of a nasty ugly synth and although one shouldn't judge a book by it's cover.



It's a very plain and uninteresting cover for such an incredible synth let me assure you, there's truly masses of power under that innocent facade. It still has it's faults of course, all synths do, but if you can live with those it's far more interesting a synth than what most people have used... It's not for the feint hearted though... A few years back on one of the Fusion forums we'd get alot of complete synth newbies asking about the Fusion when the price dropped... Strange as it may sound, we did try to dicourage them from getting one but many did regardless... Only for the forum to be inundated with "help!" threads very soon after! I know you'd be fine with it as you're experienced but for any newbie who gets one, they're letting themself in for a baptism of fire... I can't think of a single other workstation synth that's anywhere near as complex, it really is a monster.



As for it's looks, I prefer it to my wallpaper! And yes, mine does have an orange screen!

Edited by Shreddie (27/11/10 07:00 AM)


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vinyl_junkie
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Re: Yamaha DX Series: School Me new [Re: ken long]
      #877932 - 29/11/10 02:03 AM
Thats VERY impressive, I honestly didn't know it could do half of what you said.
Originally I thought it was just another sample based workstation aimed to muscle in on Korg's monopoly and so on but with a good sample library from Hollow Sun..little did I know it was such a beast.
Ah well being a flop is good, makes it accessible to the people in the know for sensible prices...

The orange backlit LCD and buttons look sweet by the way


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Shreddie



Joined: 16/01/08
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Re: Yamaha DX Series: School Me new [Re: vinyl_junkie]
      #878031 - 29/11/10 01:21 PM
Quote vinyl_junkie:

Thats VERY impressive, I honestly didn't know it could do half of what you said.



Not that many do... The manual ain't the best and actually leaves some features out (it was based on an earlier OS) but it might be worth a read if the Fusion interests you. Few reviews go into much of the deeper details.

Quote:

Originally I thought it was just another sample based workstation aimed to muscle in on Korg's monopoly



In a way it was... But Alesis were quite ambitious... Although when it was first released it was priced to compete the Triton/Motif/Fantom, it's fair to say that it has more in common with the Oasys... And indeed, some have described it as a poor mans Oasys... Except that the Fusion actually beats it in some respects! Sadly, when it was first released it was full of bugs so got a reputation for being unreliable which undeservedly stuck... That badly affected sales so all Alesis really did was to sort out the problems it had and make it stable, which it is... Some features that were planned (vocoder and eSATA drives, possibly with direct to CD mastering) never appeared and further features which were rumoured were forgotten about... Things could have been very different, much more could have been done had it 'lived' and a V2 OS could have made it a truly killer synth... Possibly/probably with more synthesis types than it already has and a pattern sequencer in addition to it's song sequencer. But as it stands, even without those features, it's still a really great synth. In spite of all the other fantastic synths I have, if I was to have only one, it'd be the Fusion even though it's not actually my favourite... It's just 'cos it's so damned powerful/flexible.

Quote:

Ah well being a flop is good, makes it accessible to the people in the know for sensible prices...



Mad prices IMO, it's so cheap for what it is now... 88 note monster synth with 8 track HD recorder for under £500 anyone?! However, in common with some flops of yesteryear, I have a feeling that it may become quite desirable over the next decade or so.

Quote:

The orange backlit LCD and buttons look sweet by the way



Cheers, orange isn't exactly my favourite colour but I'm very sensitive to blue light so I slipped an orange lighting gel over the very bright blue backlight... My K5000s has an orange/amber screen too... It's just much easier on the eye.


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