... over their £1250 kettle lead by the ASA.

http://asa.org.uk/ASA-action/Adjudications/2011/1/Russ-Andrews-Accessories -Ltd/TF_ADJ_49597.aspx

Turns out that a grand-plus bit of electric string, plug and socket _doesn't_ make your hifi sound much better after all. Who'da thunk..?



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Veni, Vidi, Aesculi
(I came, I saw, I conkered)

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Samplecraze
Stretch That Note

Dammit Dave, why couldn't you have posted one hour earlier?

I'd just payed out £2495 for a pair of those U-shaped metal thingies that go in the back of your hi-fi.

If only I'd known sooner about this charlatan.

Good stuff. More of the same please ASA!

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madtheory creations
Synths and pianos for Kontakt

Someone else reads El Reg then? Yeah, this couldn't happen to a more deserving person.

Just read through all that ASA report and it seems very fair, particularly with regard to the lack of any common mode improvement, and the fact that the quoted measurements were done with 50 ohm source and load impedances, which in no way represents what you’d find in a typical mains supply and PSU.

It’s not quite that it doesn’t make your hi-fi sound better after all, but that no proof has yet been provided


Martin

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YewTreeMagic

I think that if you buy expensive cables, there's a certain amount of perception improvement that your brain makes up.

However, I don't imagine for a second that it costs that much to make the cable, and while they may have spent a bit on development, they probably would make it back quicker selling more of them for less money...and probably wouldn't get slapped by the ASA as well.

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www.exaviormusic.com
www.manninmusic.com Music Teacher, Isle of Man

There are also plenty of hand-plaited DIY designs out there that offer similar distributed capacitance to cancel out any differential more RD interference.

Not quite as slick-looking as a machine-plaited one, but probably nearly as effective.


Martin

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YewTreeMagic

I wonder how many hi-fi journals who make a living reviewing this crap will print the story?

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Dynamite with a laser beam...

Quote:

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It’s not quite that it doesn’t make your hi-fi sound better after all, but that no proof has yet been provided

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I.E. the same reason that patent offices now ask for a working prototype when someone tries to patent a perpetual-motion machine...

The sad thing is it probably won't effect sales!

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Original artwork and unique devices inspired by vintage technology http://www.thisisobsolete.com

he doesn't sell anything - just to one or two suckers. So i wouldn't worry too much.

That's great but I want the dude who sells them room resonators under investigation even more hahah

I think it's only fair to point out that Russ Andrews was pulled up for one item. I have bought the occasional product from his company and yes they actually did make my Hi Fi sound better. And before anyone tells me, no it didn't just make it sound different. It was definitly better. Many of his products are well made to a high standard. The law of diminishing returns does kick in of course at some point and some people are crazy to pay the money for some of his very high end stuff. But I think it's important to be fair. It's not always snake oil.

... buuuuuuuut most of the time it is.

reading the ASA report brought a big smile to my face. made a rubbish day at the office a lot happier.

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hourglass | random thoughts | doubledotdash!? collective

Quote David O' Connell:

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I think it's only fair to point out that Russ Andrews was pulled up for one item. I have bought the occasional product from his company and yes they actually did make my Hi Fi sound better. And before anyone tells me, no it didn't just make it sound different. It was definitly better. Many of his products are well made to a high standard. The law of diminishing returns does kick in of course at some point and some people are crazy to pay the money for some of his very high end stuff. But I think it's important to be fair. It's not always snake oil.

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So it was you that bought those green CD pens..


Paul

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Paul

Quote ~Paul:

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[

So it was you that bought those green CD pens..


Paul

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They were green actually. But thats beside the point. Hands up all those who have actually tried a mains lead or mains block or some other useful item and compared them to the bog standard ones. I would very much like everyone to at least check out this link read and comment again.
http://www.russandrews.com/viewindex.asp?article_id=astoria&src=blog

Quote David O' Connell:

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I would very much like everyone to at least check out this link read and comment again.
http://www.russandrews.com/viewindex.asp?article_id=astoria&src=blog

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I probably shouldn't say this but I'm afraid that Andy Jackson has always seemed a little gullible as far as these tweaks are concerned. If I see that he's endorsed something then I know that it probably isn't worth buying.

James.

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JRP Music - Audio Mastering and Restoration.
http://www.jrpmusic.net

Quote David O' Connell:

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They were green actually.

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Umm, yes, thats what I said

Quote David O' Connell:

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Hands up all those who have actually tried a mains lead or mains block or some other useful item and compared them to the bog standard ones. I would very much like everyone to at least check out this link read and comment again.

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In which case, by replacing your mains cable/s, you are not even doing half the job.. A chain is only as strong as it's weakest link, right? So chop chop and rip your entire house apart, replace all the wiring and junctions behind the wall and under the floors and fit a new gold plated fuse box while you are at it. Because if an IEC cable makes a difference, then so does all that other kit too. In fact, the 200 odd miles of high voltage supply cables going from your house/studio to various substations and the power station also make a difference. Perhaps Russ Andrews will go the whole hog and offer a quality upgrade solution for that too?

Back here on earth though.. I've been to some well respected musicians studios and big commercial studios here & there, and not one of them used any of that stuff. Not that I peered behind every rack mind. But im sure Id have noticed the comedy cables around the place if they were there..
As much as I like and respect Pink Floyd/Gilmour. And as much as im sure AJ is a great engineer, that article still reeks of absolute (sponsored) BS.

Paul

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Paul

I think most quality studios pay attention to their mains supply in some way. If you use bell wire for your mains it will affect things. I hold no brief for Russ Andrews especially but I think it's important to be fair. It's easy to jump on the snake oil bandwagon. We all agree that a good microphone cable helps us to get the best from a microphone. There are I'm sure plenty of cheap crap cables out there. Does that make the manufactures of the good ones suspect. Is monster cable crap because it claims basically what Russ Andrews claims that attention to detail in manufacture and components makes a difference. Russ Andrews is in the business of making money and I agree many of his products are over hyped to fool the gullible. But I still think that his original basic products are very good.

Quote Steve Hill:

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I wonder how many hi-fi journals who make a living reviewing this crap will print the story?

---

I'm so losing respect for journalists, not only those that write about audio and hi-fi, but in general. Politics, economics, film, art, music, even science... 80-90% of the stuff published today is utter rubbish. Many journalists seem to do little more than copy/paste some nonsense they don't understand, but read someplace else.

A fellow musician, a double bass player, recently went back to the States to make some money. He writes articles on medical drugs for large pharmaceutical companies. He explained to me that he hasn't got a clue what he's writing about - he simply takes a few existing papers and articles and re-writes them. He said that it doesn't matter that he's no expert, but he got the job because he knows how to write. He said he gets paid handsomely.

Yes, I'm a fellow El Reg reader ...

This caused much merriment at work especially with those of us that have recently bought hdmi leads... supposedly and independent study has now shown that there is no difference between the expensive (many hundreds of pounds - really) and the 99p versions....

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Veni, Vidi, Aesculi
(I came, I saw, I conkered)

Quote David O' Connell:

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I think most quality studios pay attention to their mains supply in some way. If you use bell wire for your mains it will affect things. I hold no brief for Russ Andrews especially but I think it's important to be fair. It's easy to jump on the snake oil bandwagon. We all agree that a good microphone cable helps us to get the best from a microphone. There are I'm sure plenty of cheap crap cables out there. Does that make the manufactures of the good ones suspect. Is monster cable crap because it claims basically what Russ Andrews claims that attention to detail in manufacture and components makes a difference. Russ Andrews is in the business of making money and I agree many of his products are over hyped to fool the gullible. But I still think that his original basic products are very good.

---

Attention to detail is one thin g- but attention detail doesn't cost that much. And yes - there is NO difference between a £10 IEC cable and ANY other more expensive type.

Cheap cable crap out because of bad connects or very low quality materials. You don't need to spend a lot to get excellent top drawer quality in connectors or cables. My speakers cables are quite pricey - but not the stupid monies that that darn website offers!! hoho

Quote David O' Connell:

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I would very much like everyone to at least check out this link read and comment again.
http://www.russandrews.com/viewindex.asp?article_id=astoria&src=blog

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I've had an album mastered at Andy Jackson's place. I've also had one done at Abbey Road.

Both do a good job.

There's no evidence whatsoever (in my mind) that a shedload of solid silver Kimber cables and Russ Andrews kettle leads contributed one iota to the finished product or made it in any way "better" than the Abbey Road offering.

I did gently raise the snake oil conversation with Andy who swears that in an A-B comparison at Dave Gilmour's studio he was personally convinced that there was an audible difference. But I'm not sure there's ever been an album made, by anybody, where any such difference is not going to be completely buried by all the other compromises.

In short, Abbey Road is "good enough" for 99.9999% of mortals. If I had £5 million to spend, I'd still spend it on upgrading everything else first, before I considered buying a single Russ Andrews product.

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Dynamite with a laser beam...

Quote David O' Connell:

---

I think most quality studios pay attention to their mains supply in some way. If you use bell wire for your mains it will affect things. I hold no brief for Russ Andrews especially but I think it's important to be fair. It's easy to jump on the snake oil bandwagon. We all agree that a good microphone cable helps us to get the best from a microphone. There are I'm sure plenty of cheap crap cables out there. Does that make the manufactures of the good ones suspect. Is monster cable crap because it claims basically what Russ Andrews claims that attention to detail in manufacture and components makes a difference. Russ Andrews is in the business of making money and I agree many of his products are over hyped to fool the gullible. But I still think that his original basic products are very good.

---

1. Nobody uses bell wire as a mains lead.

2. Monster is every bit as guilty of selling snake oil.

3. Anybody who sells speaker cable with directional arrows on it is a charlatan.

4. I have tested various types of mains conditioners, inc. the RA 'Sniffer' for a general article for another magazine and they made things marginally worse for some types of budget equipment, as they interfere with the earthing. Non of these boxes improve good equipment with adequate PSUs with a good and solid earth connection.

5. The Gilmour article reflects a common phenomenon - people have raggle-taggle installations with poor earthing. Along comes a snake oiler and offers them cable with magic Spong-Connectors. In installing this crap, they sort out the earthing and hey-presto! Noise levels improve, as if by magic!

6. We are far from agreed that "good microphone cable helps us to get the best from a microphone" - as long as the cable is up to the task of allowing what goes in at one end to come out of the other, it is OK. Cable is totally passive and buying magic cable is, to quote Shakespeare, 'fool's errand.'

7. There used to be a great deal of sub-standard cable knocking about and being sold as suitable for professional audio, this was up to the 80s and is just no longer the case. Companies like Klotz, Bespeco and a whole host of others, sell good quality cable in 100m rolls at low prices and these perform every bit as well as the esoteric nonsense cables.

8. All these cables will deal with frequencies up to RF and nearly all hi-fis cap their ins and outs and internal connections at 20kHz anyway. Also, nearly all microphones do the same - a fact that the hi-fi buffs who twitch over 96kHz systems conveniently forget!

Quote:

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they sort out the earthing and hey-presto! Noise levels improve, as if by magic!

---

That was my problem with the linked article too. It's not an A-B comparison. And the engineering decisions made are pretty dodgy too. Like those magic mains filters - anyone halfway competent at things electrical would say b*ll*cks to that and install a double-conversion sine-wave UPS in a cupboard somewhere instead.

Quote Dave B:

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Yes, I'm a fellow El Reg reader ...

This caused much merriment at work especially with those of us that have recently bought hdmi leads... supposedly and independent study has now shown that there is no difference between the expensive (many hundreds of pounds - really) and the 99p versions....

---

Yep, bought 4 really good shielded DHMI cables from Amazon at £2.30 each. Work perfectly.

I went to the Sony Centre to check out the new B3E 40 " jobbie and the manager there did a Russ on me (BTW, this is now designated as a new word) and tried to convince me that the £24.99 HDMI cables he had did a better job. I asked him to eplain the physics to me; he couldn't. I asked him to show me using a cheaper comparable; he couldn't.

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Samplecraze
Stretch That Note

Quote Zukan:

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I went to the Sony Centre to check out the new B3E 40 " jobbie and the manager there did a Russ on me (BTW, this is now designated as a new word)...

---

It's an excellent word. As with so many slang nouns, you could make it a verb as well, eg. "I only went into PC World for a cheap power supply, but the spod in there was russing with me something bad".

Yeah, I like that one.

Ok, so it's confirmed then.

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Samplecraze
Stretch That Note

I agree completely with the Bladder on these points:

Quote The Red Bladder:

---

1. Nobody uses bell wire as a mains lead.

2. Monster is every bit as guilty of selling snake oil.

3. Anybody who sells speaker cable with directional arrows on it is a charlatan.

4. I have tested various types of mains conditioners, inc. the RA 'Sniffer' for a general article for another magazine and they made things marginally worse for some types of budget equipment, as they interfere with the earthing. Non of these boxes improve good equipment with adequate PSUs with a good and solid earth connection.

5. The Gilmour article reflects a common phenomenon - people have raggle-taggle installations with poor earthing. Along comes a snake oiler and offers them cable with magic Spong-Connectors. In installing this crap, they sort out the earthing and hey-presto! Noise levels improve, as if by magic!

6. We are far from agreed that "good microphone cable helps us to get the best from a microphone" - as long as the cable is up to the task of allowing what goes in at one end to come out of the other, it is OK. Cable is totally passive and buying magic cable is, to quote Shakespeare, 'fool's errand.'

7. There used to be a great deal of sub-standard cable knocking about and being sold as suitable for professional audio, this was up to the 80s and is just no longer the case. Companies like Klotz, Bespeco and a whole host of others, sell good quality cable in 100m rolls at low prices and these perform every bit as well as the esoteric nonsense cables.

8. All these cables will deal with frequencies up to RF and nearly all hi-fis cap their ins and outs and internal connections at 20kHz anyway. Also, nearly all microphones do the same - a fact that the hi-fi buffs who twitch over 96kHz systems conveniently forget!

---

hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Quote David O' Connell:

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It's easy to jump on the snake oil bandwagon. We all agree that a good microphone cable helps us to get the best from a microphone.

---

Not really. We agree that a faulty cable is a bad thing. That certain circumstances justify heavy-duty connectors and extra shielding, in others it would just be expensive over-kill.

Well put bladder.

If someone thinks these cables have merit, then you need to learn some basic electronics. Progress through the stages of building an AC to DC power supply- bridge rectifier, reservoir capacitor, voltage regulator etc. and you will quickly see that this talk of electricity affecting the sound is nonsense.

You could also set up a test by recording the output of your CD player with and without the fancy mains cable, then doing a blind AB on the two recordings.

But we already know the outcome

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madtheory creations
Synths and pianos for Kontakt

maybe it's just one of those cases like A Few Good Men, where Tom Cruise needs his Bat to think properly, maybe that's what those cables do for Andy and others... if they truly think they hear a difference then i guess whatever works... i know for me and cables, the noticeable difference in price seems to come down largely to build quality, if there is a difference i sure can't hear it, but then my set-up probably has a few weak links so it probably wouldn't matter, and even then i figure with such a digital set-up any little grunge alone the way can't be a bad thing...

to relate it to golf, and i bring that up cause to me music and golf are so different yet so amazingly similar, impossible to master and a deep journey into self exploration and life... anyhoo i have to have 3 tees in my right pocket and mark my ball with a certain coin, i hate to see laces flopping around and my shirt has to be tucked in with all my clubs with their own specific section within the bag and the identical pre-shot routine and style etc. etc. now none of this has any real and tangible effect on anything, but i always play worse when something is out of place and vice-versa... be it superstition or some spiritual energy thing or simply mental midgetness, but never the less it has a real effect on the outcome... for those that adamantly believe they hear a difference you will probably have am easier time stealing cake from a fat kid and maybe they churn out better work with those cables in an almost self justification sort of way for believing it, as subconsciously i am sure their subconscious knows it's largely hogwash...

as i was saying, people just can't help themselves, and i am guilty just as much as the next person, usually with health food store mumbo jumbo and i know it every-time. it could be that when you are so desperately looking for an answer or solution or cure or to make something better you will begin to give anything a shot AND actually start believing it and that is when these sorts of things happen..

on another note the Zodiacs apparently changed or something... amazingly my new one is equally as accurate as my old one but since i like my old one better i'll just stick with that...

it's largely a mind thing me thinks...

as you were

Looks like it me against the universe on this one. But all I can finally add is that I did hear a difference. Guess I better get my ears checked. It would be nice though if someone did a really well controlled test just to put sad deluded people like me back in the box. Might do my own someday as I have as you have all probably guessed by now been been duped,scammed fooled etc. into parting with money for Russ Andrews cables(sigh)

I think my issue is that all that stuff takes the law of diminishing returns to the extreme...so extreme in fact that anyone who thinks the extra £10000 for 0.0000001% increase in quality deserves everything they get.If in fact there is any improvement.Dave

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My head hurts!

i think sos should get some of these magic wires and put it to the test once and for all and publish the results.

i listened to some, then wrote to them querying their claims.


then called them


apparently, and i quote, "we find customers with a technical background have a harder time hearing the improvement.... "



nuff said.

Its just aural homeopathy.

There are too many unregulated businesses out there.

Its up for people to make informed choices. Russ Andrews gear is expensive so you'd need to really think about the improvements. Either that or you are filthy rich and you don't care as long as it is expensive.

As for going down the HiFi or PC stores and having the salesman recommend the most expensive cables, that's just their job. That's how they make a living and get going forward. Pushing the stock out of the store. We all know this, but perhaps we could cut them a little bit of slack?

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I'm All Ears.

Quote ken long:

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As for going down the HiFi or PC stores and having the salesman recommend the most expensive cables, that's just their job. That's how they make a living and get going forward. Pushing the stock out of the store. We all know this, but perhaps we could cut them a little bit of slack?

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How much slack should fraudulent misrepresentation get?

Quote Exalted Wombat:

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Quote ken long:

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As for going down the HiFi or PC stores and having the salesman recommend the most expensive cables, that's just their job. That's how they make a living and get going forward. Pushing the stock out of the store. We all know this, but perhaps we could cut them a little bit of slack?

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How much slack should fraudulent misrepresentation get?

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I'd give them more than I give this present government, for example...

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I'm All Ears.