Hi everyone I need some advise please.
I am trying to put a studio together around ProTools 9 and want to use a C 24 control surface.
My consearn is do I really need to buy a Mac Pro costing 2k?
Can I not use a Mac Mini for example?
I intend to use a firewire UAD device so some processor power will be saved due to this.
I also already have a Monitor,keyboard,mouse ect.
Thank you.

Yes you can use a Mac Mini, just as you can buy a real Mini or a Porsche. If all you want to do is run to the shops even now and then, a Mini will be fine.

post detailing activities in breach of license T&C deleted.

Edited by Max! (24/02/11 12:18 PM)

how did you get logic on there???
(is it an old version?)
Logic is mac only

I too built a machine a while ago - but couldn't get on with windows....apparently windows 7 is ok...but i'm not so sure!!(remain unconvinced and badly scar'ed by windows for music making!)

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the poster used a probably illegal , definitely immoral, hack to build their own machine and run a cracked version of OSX.

as such, the content of their post will shortly vaporise.

if you intend using firewire connected DSP and interface, you DO need a Mac pro.

all Macs only have one firewire bus, and DSP devices don't like sharing... only the Mac Pro is capable of having multiple firewire cards added to allow additional device connection...

and of course, the Mac pro can do a HELL of a LOT more than any other Mac....

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if you don't know who i am, i aint gonna tell you.

Sorry folks, I didn't really think before I posted. FWIW it's still very much a grey area and all my software is bought and paid for - including Snow Leopard, the full version, not the cheap upgrade disc. It was an experiment which went better than expected so forgive my over-enthusiasm.

However, there are free discussions on many pro-orientated Logic sites about the benefits of what I and others have done. In fact, there are many discussions on these very forums which have not been deleted.

That's quite an assumption! There was no hacking involved and there was no cracking. I have spent many thousands of pounds on legitimate software and have in no way modified any of it. As I said, this was an experiment which went better than expected. I would love to go this route for my graphics work. However, that would require hacking and I'm not prepared to do that.

This can not be confused with the actions of some companies on the internet modifying and selling these products. It has been discussed for over 5 years now and there is a wealth of knowledge which has not been censored as there are many ways to stay within the law.

It's a grey area in the same sense that Thomann shouldn't be selling items in to the UK without proper UK power cables - it's probably illegal but not a big enough problem for the government to clamp down on them.

Quote idris y draig:

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the poster used a probably illegal , definitely immoral, hack to build their own machine and run a cracked version of OSX.

as such, the content of their post will shortly vaporise.

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Quote LinzHenderson:

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SFWIW it's still very much a grey area and all my software is bought and paid for...

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No it's not a grey area. It goes against Apples EULA fairly clearly, and thus is illegal. I'd say it's pretty black and white, whether you've paid for the software or not.

In response to the OP, look second hand. Any mac pro will be a better computer for years to come than the Mac Mini. I highly advise the use of the 2nd hand market for this. I have been looking around and have seen Pros go for as little as £1k. A friend also got his mac pro from the online refurb store for £1200 I believe.

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Quote Stef Andrews:

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Quote LinzHenderson:

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SFWIW it's still very much a grey area and all my software is bought and paid for...

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No it's not a grey area. It goes against Apples EULA fairly clearly, and thus is illegal. I'd say it's pretty black and white, whether you've paid for the software or not.

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If it was a black and white situation I would never have begun my project. As I said, it's not for everyone, but the wealth of information out there points to a far more complex situation which I studied thoroughly before beginning. This isn't the place to discuss it and I apologise for derailing things.

However, I don't appreciate accusations being made against me by people who clearly do not know all the facts.

Quote Stef Andrews:

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No it's not a grey area. It goes against Apples EULA fairly clearly, and thus is illegal.

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The terms of the agreement with Apple are broken. Whilst this may be immoral, I'm not sure it in itself is illegal.

(but I'm not a lawyer, so I could be wrong)

Quote Stef Andrews:

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No it's not a grey area. It goes against Apples EULA fairly clearly, and thus is illegal. I'd say it's pretty black and white, whether you've paid for the software or not.

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WRONG. EULAs are not laws.

I have to say I'm surprised at the jobsworthiness on display here regarding hackintosh. The implication that everyone using a hackintosh is a torrenting, thieving pirate scumbag is pretty disappointing and narrowminded. And for those who feel the bizarre need to spend their time standing up for Apple, what have the multi-multi-multi-billion dollar Corporation ever really done for you...

Oh I hate it when I get like this, I sound like a bloomin hippy...

But really, is mentioning hackintosh really that much of a sin? it's not the same as piracy. Not at all...

To the OP, you can now buy a MacBook Pro with Thunderbolt and quad-cores that will do you nicely...

This forum currently does not support the discussion or promotion of the use of any software or other intellectual property clearly outside of the terms of it's EULA.


as such, Hackintosh has always been something of a taboo. threads re typically locked, and sometimes removed.

as i currently understand the subject, it is not legal.... BUT it is not criminal/ specifically illegal, you cannot be criminally prosecuted, but you could be privately taken to court.

whether the clause being ignored is about copying/distributing or about conditions of use, either way, you are in breach of contract, so whether it's from a one man developer , living in Hostel, or a multi billion dollar corporation, it is still not cricket.... and frankly what bothers me is people who still view it as "Okay"


if i lend you my car just to go shopping , i am going to be seriously annoyed if you go round the world in it....

likewise, if you rent a car , you will find terms and conditions.... like, not being allowed to use it for competitive purposes...

you do not buy the ownership of the software, you buy a license to be permitted to use the software... under terms and conditions. you are allowed to go shopping with it, not enter the paris-dakar rally.




take note...

no more debate promoting such activities please.... i intensely dislike having to get heavy about it....


thank you

Max

Forum Moderator.

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if you don't know who i am, i aint gonna tell you.

Hmm.

Well, I'm sure we've all done more than 70mph on the motorway from time to time Max, in rentals or otherwise.

I just don't understand WHY it's taboo for SOS and why SOS forums feel the need to actively prevent discussion about it. I can understand why Apple don't like it it, but why an independent magazine should be so concerned is a mystery. Can only think it's out of duty to advertisers, otherwise... why not let people discuss it.

I've no right to demand an answer and the questions are largely rhetorical. That's all from me on it.

Jon

think of it like this... or at least , give the position some space in your head for a while... and see .

Over all, as a guiding principle, you can't really be selective about intellectual property rights... either they are endorsed as a principle, and upheld as such.... or not.... whether it be sample library, software, or music, or the written word.....

so the choice is... to protect everyone's IP rights...in so much as is practicable, or ignore them...

and that by definition, a publication like SOS relies on the defence of the self same rights.... to protect it's own income ....


what other truly morally defensible choice is there? but to respect those rights.

especially bearing in mind that this is a commercial operation, catering to a lot of people who make their living from precisely such rights.... and a lot of other people who would LIKE to be able to do so....



that's the "moral" side of things ...



then there's the question of what happens if you decide to be saying to hell with them all, and thus actively or passively support the open abuse of such things, and hoping no one decides to get super duper snippy about it and tie up the company in court... potentially leading to the demise of the entire operation...

okay, that may be an extreme , but it is theoretically possible,.. and do you REALLY want to risk that??

i wouldn't....



it may seem a bit black and white.... and people do love to keep saying it's a grey area....


it's not.


when you reduce it to it's core essence, it basically is either respect those rights or not.


there is no middle ground....


and if you get a speeding ticket while borrowing my car??? damn sure i'll give you up for prosecution when the letter drops through my door... and so will the rental company....

the intent of the analogy was to suggest you may not take your enterprise car rental out on the Race track in competition.... it being a use not granted by the rental agreement , which amounts to an EULA.

How do you equate using a piece of software in a way other than described in the EULA, an infringement of someone's intellectual property rights? They're not the same. At isn't piracy or even close. Again: it is NOTHING TO DO WITH PIRACY.

Will moderators delete threads where someone mentions doing a gig for cash and not declaring it to the inland revenue? No. Would they be seen as endorsing it? No. But that activity is more illegal than altering kext and running Snow Leopard on a PC.

I like this place, and have a huge amount of respect for a lot of the contributors. It's helped me many times. I just don't get this particular issue.

rights...

mean more than just one thing.

a software EULA is what the author says you can and cannot do with THEIR intellectual property . note INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY.

ditto the rights reservations on published works .... be it music or books or whatever...

any activity outside of the EULA is therefore an infringement of their rights.




whether it be , for example, and not limited to, copying it, or modifying it to circumvent security.. redistributing it, whether in an altered form, or original ,(as in pIracy) or using it to create library music, or another sample set (some sample libraries use that one) or basically using it in any manner outside of their designed intention . (as the case in point0

and your point about deleting of threads...

and it's possible they might delete such a thread as you outline, if they felt the individual needed protection from themselves... perhaps.... just maybe.... certainly, in some cases threads have been removed for similar reasons,... where clearly unsound advice has had the potential to cause injury,



and even then the taxman has no grounds to complain that SOS are publishing or promoting a means to evade tax unlawfully... they're more likely indeed, thank them for bringing it to their attention... (note the T&C of the forum... where SOS clearly state they'll divulge user info if approached by the appropriate authorities )

whereas publishing information about how to do any of the above IP related things... could be (in an extreme view) seen as doing so.


it is possible to discuss the concept of EULAs without the specifics , although it often descends in to madness.... and gets locked... but if everyone plays nice, and remembers to be thoughtfully circumspect, then the principle is certainly a debate than can be had....


but to be honest, it's pretty clear cut as far as i'm concerned...

perhaps because i come from a family of musicians, software engineers, authors and my income , one way or another relies entirely on IP related clients.




other people in the past have argued "but there's a company selling ready made ones and they haven;t been shut down " so it must be okay....

to which i might respond...
A) they've not been shut down ... Yet....

B) there's also a bloke down our way who sells drugs... i'm not about to point you in his direction or encourage their use... and thank you, but don;t bring them in to my house...

BTW I do hope you're not taking this personally....

Whatever the rights and wrongs are, a Hackintosh is a toy, not a professional tool. You're completely on your own if something goes wrong and won't get any sort of tech support - not from Apple, Avid or anyone else. A C24 is several grand's worth of kit and frankly you'd be mad to attach it to a potentially flaky and completely unsupported PC for the sake of a few hundred quid. A studio is complicated enough already without skimping on the single most important piece of kit.

OP: You can go for a Mac Mini, but they're basically a laptop in a box, with a relatively slow processor and hard drive, limited I/O and no room for upgrades. In your position I'd be inclined to go for a second-hand Mac Pro, if only so I don't have to worry about expansion further down the line. You could go over to Windows, but buying like-for-like you won't save that much over a Mac.

I don't really think there's anything personal about it is there?

It's an interesting discussion and one that I admit I occupy the left of centre position on. People modify their road cars and take them track racing - they don't get any product support from the car manufacturers any more but it doesn't matter. The car's aren't road legal any more - doesn't matter. They're just buying parts, and putting them together in whatever way they like. If it blows up - their problem. If they use them to outrun the police or smuggle arms or whatever, then yes that's bad but as long as their creation isn't used for theft, law evasion, etc then they're alright.

I hear what you're saying about intellectual property rights and yes they are to be valued and protected. But, I don't agree that installing an OS on a computer with a different mobo that those specified is violating the creators' IP.

True, Apple locking its software users into its walled garden of hardware is annoying for some (although great business sense), but I would argue the same point regardless of the attitude of the company selling the software.

Yes, there's a wide debate that many more knowledgeable people than we have entered into. My question/irritation is gagging DISCUSSION of the subject on the forum. A mature, enlightened approach (I'm not claiming to being either!) would surely be to have the discussion and allow people to talk about how unreliable it is, how they would need to take a few chances and prepare for it to break each time you update, and how you would probably be in partial violation of an unenforceable licensing agreement. You could walk into an Apple store tell them you're trying to install OSX onto a hack, give them your address, and they'd do nothing about it. All this "it's against the law!" is extreme and basically daft, and not (in my opinion) a good enough reason to ban discussion of it.

Can you see where I'm coming from?

Jon

Get the MacPro and be done with it. I am in my 3rd year on my 8 core and it cranks along with tons of power just like day 1. You will be all the happier for it!

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http://www.christopherferreira.com