Hi

for many years now my dream has been to work in a recording studio. i spend hours in my home studio but need to get to that next level. I have been told by meny people to not go to university. but now i am finishing my a levels and need somewhere to go.

i gather i need todo something along the lines of an apprentaship (become a tea boy...)

do these even exist ive tried looking around a bit for something and got nothing. i thought about emailing the studios but that seemed so impersonal (they must get 1000's of these) there not gonna get to know me ? or have any reason entirely to teach me what i want to know

i mean i live just outside Manchester but would move anywhere in the country (world if it was nice and hot and not France.....)and i know there a few gd studios in Manchester



how did all you guys get to where you are today!!!

HELP ME!!!!!

Thanks for your time very much

Jack

Hi, First port of call...find out the names of the studios, get some evidence of a brain in writing/cd and knock on doors, being presentable and patient.Ask if you can work for free for a short period and prove your worth.Dave

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My head hurts!

Hi Dodger!

What A Levels are you taking and what grades are you expecting?

Mike

Im currently taking Music, Physics and music technology. should hopfully get 3 c's or if all goes really well B C C with the B in technology

Quote Dodger:

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how did all you guys get to where you are today!!!

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By having a plan A, B and C. Plan A (drummed into me by my pragmatic dad) was living. i.e. buying food, getting my own place, being self-sufficient and not sponging or going on the dole. Once those things are in place, one is perhaps in a better position, mentally and financially to approach Plan B.

The chances of Plan B working out are miniscule, in which case a Plan C is necessary. My Plan C included building site labourer and wine waiter. I am now doing my dream job but it has been a very long and painful journey.

What are you doing music or recording wise outside college?

I started in the business by recording gigs and doing demos for people who couldn't afford to go to a proper studio. I got known for this and ended up doing live sound and studio recording for people that I'd recorded in those early days.

James.

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JRP Music - Audio Mastering and Restoration.
http://www.jrpmusic.net

Everyone's route is different, and usually there's no 'big break' either in the recording biz, as a career, or in the being-an-artist biz, as a career. There are, though, usually a couple of occasions where a number of things are in place- you're the right person, with the right skills, who just happens to be in the right place, with the right people, when an opportunity turns up.

These moments can't be created by pure effort of will - an awful lot is simply down to chance. Basically, the only thing you can do is try and create the conditions so as to give yourself the best chance of getting lucky- and that means networking, visiting studios, making contacts both with studio owners and musicians, and offering you skills out to mates, for free, just so you have some kind of showreel to offer. It also means following up any remix opportunities out there (sites like Indaba - yes, you sometimes have to pay) and these days, looking at the 'beats' market as well. It's likely that you'll need some evidence of musical skills as well as recording skills to get anywhere these days.

Just remember - this is a business where there are fewer and fewer obvious routes to any form of employment, let alone 'success' or even long term survival even if you do get a bit of luck along the way. A lot of very well established studios with highly skilled engineers with 25 years experience have closed recently. Make sure you do have some kind of other skill which can make you some cash, because there will be times - probably more often than not - where you're getting nowhere. It's a really, really, tough business, and getting harder all the time. You'll need balls of steel, a capacity for endless hard work for little or no pay, and the ability to accept rebuffs (sometimes extremely rude) without getting too disheartened. You'll see your peers, in ten years time, making far more money than you in other careers, with security, houses, and all the rest of it, while you could still be struggling along.

Make sure you really, really, want to do this, with as little naivety and star-struck ideas as possible. It's a tough business, one of the roughest there is, and it's not for the faint hearted.

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http://anotherfineday.bandcamp.com/ http://anotherfineday.co.uk http://apollomusic.co.uk

Wise words, here's an email I sent to someone asking me advice on where to study music production earlier today if of any use.

Hello Jack, great to hear from you mate.

To cut to the chase, there are a few good reasons to study the arts, they're fun, give you time to develop your music, you'll make a good set of friends, but they are nearly counter-productive in progressing in the real world as a musician. The only course that holds any weight in the UK is the Tonmeister, maybe LIPA at a push...the rest will often be taught by failed musicians with a poor understanding of engineering and how things actually work in the real world...harsh, but fair.

It's really fantastic that you're doing so much with your band, working full time to support it, and getting in touch with people in the industry...you're already ahead of 99% of music production students who think they'll be working in a studio after they graduate when infact they'll be unemployable with little/no real world experience with a mickey mouse qualification and a silly amount of debt.

Are you based in London? If so you're already half way there, and as you know it's very much who you know so my advice is to get yourself right in the environment you want to be in, whether it's making the tea or manning reception on the night shift in some kind of studio you'll be in a place to learn how the industry actually works and slowly build up a great set of contacts. You'll get paid bugger (although hopefully enough to live off) all and get treated appallingly a lot of the time but you'll learn useful skills and be on the bottom of a very cool ladder in an environment that creatively inspires you.

Have a good think about exactly what it is you want to do in audio, making it as a studio engineer is going to be extremely challenging, but there are more obtainable careers in tv/film/games if that's your thing. I studied Creative Music Technology BA Hons at Bath Spa and although it was a great laugh, gave me time to develop my music and what I wanted to do with it...it was my tea boy job in Soho (Evolutions Post) that got me meeting the right people and ultimately got me doing what I'm doing now, same as with anyone I work with now, they all started out making the tea and working there arses off in the right environment, my two most successful young mates (same age as me) skipped uni and went straight for the tea boy job and are doing embarrassingly well now for their age, doing what they love all day and pulling in a decent amount of dosh (BBC offline editor & Dubbing Mixer for Halo Post).

I'm out of the UK until 15th April but let me know if any of this is useful and if you'd like to grab a beer for music chats when I'm back.

Mash

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www.matthewcracknell.com

outside school i have my own studio do a lot of recording with my band and some other solo artists. some times for like a tenner here and there but most of the time for free. im trying to get that rolling more and get more money from it you know evening an weekends

i know and accept that the only way to get where i want to be is getting very good at making tea and coffee....

but what is the best way to try and get studios to listen to me? obviously it wud be better if i relocate to london but atm financially don't feel that is viable so my main hub is around Manchester.. which i no again isn't ideal but there are a lot worse

i mean do i go round knocking on there doors?

letters?

email?

phone calls?

Knock on doors, in London.

I didn't have a penny when I came here, sofa surfed for first few months (basically homeless) then moved into the grottiest of all grotty house shares with roughly eight weirdos in the worst bit of London I've ever witnessed...just depends how bad you want it!

Mash

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www.matthewcracknell.com

But the whole time I was utterly euphoric about being in London, being around/making tea for people I aspired to!

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www.matthewcracknell.com

Quote Dodger:

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Im currently taking Music, Physics and music technology. should hopfully get 3 c's or if all goes really well B C C with the B in technology

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I take it those are predicted grades for this year? First priority then: worker harder! get better grades!

There are still a fair few studios in Manchester you could go around door knocking.

But which ever way you look at it, the number of studios is small and probably still getting smaller, and the number of people with qualifications or experience or both is enormous. So you're facing more of a northface climb than an an uphill struggle just to get noticed.

My advice would be to think a little more laterally. All experience is good experience and most of it will translate directly between audio disciplines -- and you might even find that there are better things in this world than sitting in the back of a music studio all day!

So, go knocking on the doors of theaters, radio stations, corporate and commercial TV facilities and anything else you can find that has an audio element to it.

You are lucky in that you have Media City on your doorstep, and there is a serious demand for technical staff -- even the BBC are offering significant jobs and training opportunities which -- should you be lucky enough to get one -- would put you in a far better position than three years at college!

Think of your dream as a long term goal rather than short term, and aim to work towards it, even if that means taking a bit of a zig-zag route. Those with drive, determination and motivation, along with good people skills, a reasonable brain and good ears will always make it int he end.

Best of luck to you.

hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Wont people just get annoyed if i go and knock on there door?

wouldn't a letter or phone call be less intrusive but still better then an email

It depends how good you are at writing letters and what knd of instant impression you make.

Personally, I'd be more impressed by someone who went to the effort of turning up than just printed 100 letters and stuck some stamps on!

It all helps, of course. Phone to find out the name of the best person to contact. Write to that person, and make it relevant and specific to the employer's business and likely needs. Phone to ask if they received your letter and to ask if you can visit them. Turn up, remind them you phoned and wrote and ask if you could have a look around...

hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Quote Dodger:

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Wont people just get annoyed if i go and knock on there door?

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Probably depends on the company. In the days when I was running a studio, I wouldn't have been happy if I was the only person in the building working on a session and someone turned up on the off chance of having a look round. However, if you had phoned me or emailed I would have been much more receptive to arranging a time to meet. You would need to convince me that you had something going for you over and above all the other hopefuls though.

A bigger company with more staff would probably be fine with you walking in - although they might ask you to come back at a different time to talk to the right people.

James.

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JRP Music - Audio Mastering and Restoration.
http://www.jrpmusic.net

Edited by James Perrett (31/03/11 04:40 PM)

Quote Dodger:

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Im currently taking Music, Physics and music technology. should hopfully get 3 c's or if all goes really well B C C with the B in technology

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Here we go again!

1. MT is not an academic subject, so you have two A-Levels in the offing and not three. I suggest you take a long hard look at something else!

2. We get somewhere between 100 and 200 job-apps a year, more if I count all the silly emails. Just about all these come from young boys who have attended some provincial college or uni and graduated in MT. Pretty much none of them can read music or a circuit diagram, which always makes me smile, as one is forced to ask what happened to music and technology, when studying er, music-technology!

3. At your tender age, the work of a recording engineer looks interesting and exciting. Trust me - it ain't! It is work, just like anything else. It is those parts of the industry that are the most boring, that are usually the best paid.

4. The pay is crap - there just is no other way to put it! The most credited engineer of all time (you name 'em and he's recorded them, Stones, Tina, Pavarotti, Genesis, Michael Jackson, I could go on and on, listing almost everybody except Elvis and P. Floyd) lives in an ordinary, rented house. He is a friend of mine and we have known one another since we both had hair! Below him come thousands and thousands of hopefuls, struggling to get to work with just one of the hundreds of 'names' that he can put on his c.v.

5. Other careers are also very interesting - but career teachers at school have very little idea of what goes on in the real World. They think of retail as being shelf-stacking, when it is one of the most interesting careers you can get and offers some of the best opportunities for travel and international postings. Everything from economics to engineering is what you make of it.

6. Business is still the most interesting and exciting career choice of all - and offers real chances, as opposed to silly illusions, as does the music industry. When I am not a studio owner, I run a business - in that role, I get to solve real problems and talk to real people with real budgets. Then I go into the studio and have to explain to some totally impecunious berk, that two drum kits, both very badly played, on a recording is a silly idea.

7. If you are not academically inclined (and the incorrect grammar in your postings would suggest that!) then how about doing an engineering subject (metallurgy, electrical engineering, building tech., etc.) at tech college, doing the old ONC to HND route?

8. Right now, there are more opportunities for young people than at any other time in history. Please don't throw away your future on a path to nowhere, gaining a qualification that only serves to do harm!

And whilst I am here, I'll answer your questions -

Quote Dodger:

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i gather i need todo something along the lines of an apprentaship (become a tea boy...)

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No, in the UK you need to attend either LIPA (2nd choice) or Surrey Tonmeister (1st choice). The rest are pretty much the direct pathway to a career in shelf-stacking.

The halcyon days of starting as a tea boy are well and truly over - and never really existed in the first place. We all did either music or electrical engineering, or both, either formally or informally. Some of the very early engineers drifted into the job, as a result of apprenticeships with the likes of Pye, the BBC and EMI, but, as I stated, those days are over.

Quote Dodger:

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how did all you guys get to where you are today!!!

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Most of the people here are amateur recording enthusiasts, but there are also a few pros knocking about. One got a doc-phil in maths, some did electrical engineering, many of the people I work with did the Surrey Tonmeister, though some just came in from left-field or went to one of the better music colleges, Royal, Guildhall, etc.

My studio survives (whence all but he had fled, the flame that lit the battle's wreck shone round him o'er the dead) because I have a background in economics and business, so everything I do has to honour the bottom line.

Ah, here he is. Ok, who had "42 hours" in the "How long it takes Red Bladder to **** on this young man's dreams" sweepstake?

Quote Mash:

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failed musicians

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What exactly is a failed musician? Where exactly in your little sandpit do you draw that particular line? Which side of it are you on and why? Can you play like Coltrane or compose like Mozart?

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Original artwork and unique devices inspired by vintage technology http://www.thisisobsolete.com

Quote The Red Bladder:

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Quote Dodger:

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Im currently taking Music, Physics and music technology. should hopfully get 3 c's or if all goes really well B C C with the B in technology

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Here we go again!

1. MT is not an academic subject, so you have two A-Levels in the offing and not three. I suggest you take a long hard look at something else!

2. We get somewhere between 100 and 200 job-apps a year, more if I count all the silly emails. Just about all these come from young boys who have attended some provincial college or uni and graduated in MT. Pretty much none of them can read music or a circuit diagram, which always makes me smile, as one is forced to ask what happened to music and technology, when studying er, music-technology!

3. At your tender age, the work of a recording engineer looks interesting and exciting. Trust me - it ain't! It is work, just like anything else. It is those parts of the industry that are the most boring, that are usually the best paid.

4. The pay is crap - there just is no other way to put it! The most credited engineer of all time (you name 'em and he's recorded them, Stones, Tina, Pavarotti, Genesis, Michael Jackson, I could go on and on, listing almost everybody except Elvis and P. Floyd) lives in an ordinary, rented house. He is a friend of mine and we have known one another since we both had hair! Below him come thousands and thousands of hopefuls, struggling to get to work with just one of the hundreds of 'names' that he can put on his c.v.

5. Other careers are also very interesting - but career teachers at school have very little idea of what goes on in the real World. They think of retail as being shelf-stacking, when it is one of the most interesting careers you can get and offers some of the best opportunities for travel and international postings. Everything from economics to engineering is what you make of it.

6. Business is still the most interesting and exciting career choice of all - and offers real chances, as opposed to silly illusions, as does the music industry. When I am not a studio owner, I run a business - in that role, I get to solve real problems and talk to real people with real budgets. Then I go into the studio and have to explain to some totally impecunious berk, that two drum kits, both very badly played, on a recording is a silly idea.

7. If you are not academically inclined (and the incorrect grammar in your postings would suggest that!) then how about doing an engineering subject (metallurgy, electrical engineering, building tech., etc.) at tech college, doing the old ONC to HND route?

8. Right now, there are more opportunities for young people than at any other time in history. Please don't throw away your future on a path to nowhere, gaining a qualification that only serves to do harm!

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Ignore Red. Follow your dreams. Burn in glory, die in flames.

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Original artwork and unique devices inspired by vintage technology http://www.thisisobsolete.com

Quote jellyjim:

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Quote Mash:

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failed musicians

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What exactly is a failed musician? Where exactly in your little sandpit do you draw that particular line? Which side of it are you on and why? Can you play like Coltrane or compose like Mozart?

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Context: The assumption teachers of any kind are failed anythings. Am I a teacher? No. We don't value education in this country and it's shameful.

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Original artwork and unique devices inspired by vintage technology http://www.thisisobsolete.com

Well let's not be too unkind to "failed" musicians, eh? After all, there are far, far more failed muso's than there are successful ones, a point often overlooked. Mash's heartwarming tale of knocking on doors and surfing on sofas will no doubt translate well to the silver screen when his bestselling autobiography is turned into a film - but in the meantime, how many people go to live in London with a bag of dreams and a toothbrush, and end up going nowhere? Not exactly a high-odds career strategy.

I know a lawyer who is a "failed" musician. I'm ****ing failure myself - as a musician. But what of my success? Funk that, obviously. It matters not whether a teacher is a "failed muso" - but whether he's a success as a teacher. They're two entirely different skillsets.

Todo :



HTH.

Quote Nutshell Cavities:

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Ah, here he is. Ok, who had "42 hours" in the "How long it takes Red Bladder to **** on this young man's dreams" sweepstake?

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A tad out of order there Nutshell if you don't mind me saying. I for one appreciate Red dispensing this sound advice. We are fortunate to have such esteemed industry pros moving among us and the newbie should be thankful for the reality check. Perhaps, when he is succesful in retail in several years time, he will look back on this as a defining moment. Perhaps he may even write a short essay entitled "Bladdered on a Friday Afternoon: The Day Red Changed My Life."

It is good that you get the top pros on 'ere to give their advice...

The thing is that Red is right, and Nutshell is right, everyone's right!

I would like to refer everyone here who is a pro to their youth and to remind them that i bet they never listened to anyone who told them they were wasting their time and to get a proper job because they had no chance and it was all sewn up.

In fact if everyone who had been given that advice had listened to it, all we would have ever had of British popular music would be a collection of highly trained 'jobbing' musicians, engineers in white coats and producers who said "it has to be three minutes long, try it again and cut a few bars off that improv bit, Sid!"

Back when i were a lad it were all highly acomplished musicians playing extremely hard music in fantastically equipped studios. And also a lot of extremely cheesy sort of Butlins fall-outs playing what Micky Most told them.

And everyone said "oh, unless you can play like Jimmy or write like Roger or paradiddle like Carl or arpeggio like Rick, you're wasting your time mate, there's no way anyone will take you seriously and those studios are a grand a day - it's all sewn up."

Yeah, well, heh!!! We may have all but a few got sucked into jet engines, but we soared like eagles.

I'm afraid that what you are actually asking here is "I want to make art, can you please tell me if that's alright?"

No, it's not alright, you have no hope. But i thank god everytime i hear beautiful music or see beautiful pictures or novels or sculptures, or if i fly in an aeroplane or use a telephone - that there are people out there who couldn't give a sh!t about that. They just do it anyway.

What should you do with your life? Do what you like with it i couldn't care less, but if you aren't sure, if you are shaky and the road doesn't feel right then keep away from it and trust your gut.

Quote Wes Bridgford:

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Quote Nutshell Cavities:

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Ah, here he is. Ok, who had "42 hours" in the "How long it takes Red Bladder to **** on this young man's dreams" sweepstake?

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A tad out of order there Nutshell if you don't mind me saying. I for one appreciate Red dispensing this sound advice. We are fortunate to have such esteemed industry pros moving among us and the newbie should be thankful for the reality check. Perhaps, when he is succesful in retail in several years time, he will look back on this as a defining moment. Perhaps he may even write a short essay entitled "Bladdered on a Friday Afternoon: The Day Red Changed My Life."

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Just to be clear, I think Red's advice is bang on, I'm just having a bit of a chuckle at the fact that he will, without fail, tirelessly repeat the same advice whenever this type of question comes up!

Quote Nutshell Cavities:

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Quote Wes Bridgford:

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Quote Nutshell Cavities:

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Ah, here he is. Ok, who had "42 hours" in the "How long it takes Red Bladder to **** on this young man's dreams" sweepstake?

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A tad out of order there Nutshell if you don't mind me saying. I for one appreciate Red dispensing this sound advice. We are fortunate to have such esteemed industry pros moving among us and the newbie should be thankful for the reality check. Perhaps, when he is succesful in retail in several years time, he will look back on this as a defining moment. Perhaps he may even write a short essay entitled "Bladdered on a Friday Afternoon: The Day Red Changed My Life."

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Just to be clear, I think Red's advice is bang on, I'm just having a bit of a chuckle at the fact that he will, without fail, tirelessly repeat the same advice whenever this type of question comes up!

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Now now you two .. I dont want you falling out .. best you both sit down to a cup of tea and an Eccles cake to calm down ..

Jack,

1. Go read electrical and electronic engineering at a big city uni. Does not have to be a great uni. This will a) teach you reality about how the kit works b) take care of the bread and butter. You will be able to get good work with a BSc in engineering.

2. If you can't already - learn to play a mainstream instrument or two (perferably guitar and keyboads) and, more importantly learn to sing. You must develop your ear - this is the most important instrument a sound engineer has. Always protect you hearing from sounds that are too loud - wear earplugs at concerts.

3. Get into a crowd which makes music. Join a band or make friends with people in bands, offer to do their sound, or even roadie for them. This is your get in.

Good Luck.

Sucess in Music is always down to luck. You have to be in the right place at the right time. Try to do this by working out the right place - jump on a bandwaggon if you can.



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The PSR

Dodger, my instincts are that Red's posts were a little harsh, but there are some points to take on board. Yes, I agree that you should forget about a job in a studio. Even if you were lucky, how long will it be before that studio goes the way of the others?

Look at growth industries and routes. Hugh made a good point, get knocking on doors at media city. As a young man, the very fact that you are comfortable using 'text speak' on a forum, whilst annoying some, highlights an advantage you have... Youth! Look at how you can embrace social media to help you get on, seek out opportunities and even new business ideas. This is probably more relevant today than a letter, but that doesn't mean you should ignore traditional approaches.

Finally, unless you want to be an engineer (and I'm talking in the broadest sense), I would ignore advice to study engineering. I could see the argument when there were studio jobs, as it gave you an advantage and a backup plan, but in 2011? Not convinced.

Quote Aftertouch:

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Finally, unless you want to be an engineer (and I'm talking in the broadest sense), I would ignore advice to study engineering. I could see the argument when there were studio jobs, as it gave you an advantage and a backup plan, but in 2011? Not convinced.

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I usually stay out of these discussions (my advice would usually be much the same as Red Bladder's) but I would strongly recommend a Plan B and that will involve some sort of education, not just a Mickey Mouse degree in golf course management.

If you are a decent electrical engineer you have some huge advantages. These are the sorts of jobs which are still in demand, and as long as society depends on energy and gadgets to employ energy, always will be.

Plus you'll have the useful skills to build or repair your own amps, mixers, outboard kit etc and know how to make up your own cables, which over a lifetime will save you a fortune.

One other thing: whilst I think it is outrageous that the educational establishment allows the myth to persists that there is room in "music" for anyone who wants to make a living at it, (a) it is true to say that 10% of the UK economy is in creative industries, and (b) whatever you do there's no reason why music and/or recording can't be a large part of your life as a hobby.

In terms of hours we actually work, in most jobs, for under 10% of our lives. It's what you do with the other 90% that matters.

[Assume a 35 year working career and an 85 year lifespan, so that's 41%. During those years assume a 35 hour week and 5 weeks paid holiday or bank holidays. So you work 20.8% of your time in your working years. 20.8% of 41% means you work 8.5% of your life. Ignore breaks for pregnancy, dole etc....]

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Dynamite with a laser beam...

Can't get into much detail since this charity is still a going concern and dear to my heart (for the dedication of the funder) BUT...

I had to leave because its pathos was to train and, in a sense 'redeem' the 'disaffected' local youth through given them some training in audio engineering and music-tech. Success rate (as per real music jobs)? 0 in 8 years.

Most 'engineers' were really boys (mostly) keen to express themselves through 'spitting' and 'chatting' and (most) were happy to create their backing tracks (well, 'bars') on Reason. Fine, BUT, the premise (and selling point to the local authorities) was still getting these guys into the music recording industry. I despaired, and after, too many years, left.

This myth about real jobs from Engineering courses at colleges and established studios was invented to make money and bring business. Colleges also used these music tech courses to entice education-shy boys to join a learning environment. A noble cause, for sure, but robbed the plumming/electricity professions of valuable hands!

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www.bugiolacchi.com
Songwriter/guitarist

Quote blue manga:

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Quote Nutshell Cavities:

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Quote Wes Bridgford:

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Quote Nutshell Cavities:

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Ah, here he is. Ok, who had "42 hours" in the "How long it takes Red Bladder to **** on this young man's dreams" sweepstake?

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A tad out of order there Nutshell if you don't mind me saying. I for one appreciate Red dispensing this sound advice. We are fortunate to have such esteemed industry pros moving among us and the newbie should be thankful for the reality check. Perhaps, when he is succesful in retail in several years time, he will look back on this as a defining moment. Perhaps he may even write a short essay entitled "Bladdered on a Friday Afternoon: The Day Red Changed My Life."

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Just to be clear, I think Red's advice is bang on, I'm just having a bit of a chuckle at the fact that he will, without fail, tirelessly repeat the same advice whenever this type of question comes up!

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Now now you two .. I dont want you falling out .. best you both sit down to a cup of tea and an Eccles cake to calm down ..

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Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm eccles cake

Quote Dodger:

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...for many years now my dream has been to work in a recording studio. i spend hours in my home studio but need to get to that next level.

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Hi Jack,

you say you spend hours in your home studio, but you did not say doing what. Recording yourself on acoustic instruments? Recording vocals? Writing music? Mixing music? Mastering music?

If you can define what you want to do exactly, you can find people who are successful in that. Find them on the credits of a film. In the credits of a video game or CD cover. In the yellow pages. On the internet. Contact them! Yes, just phone or email them directly. I give you full permission. Ask them if they can give you five minutes of their time for an informal interview. Have some questions prepared, such as how did you get into this industry? What do you do day to day? What sort of skills does one need to have to do this work? What do you like most/least about your job?

After you get this information, sit down and think if this is really the job for you. Many professionals have already given you some valuable information this thread. Use their input! But know what you want. You cannot just "work in a studio". You are employed for a specific skill, be it as a recording engineer, producer, mastering engineer. Find what role it is you want to play and get your own experience at that role, recording local talent for little or nothing, producing your friends band etc. This is how you take it to the next level, real world experience. And as many have pointed out, this is not something you can gain in a taught course.

The reality is that to support yourself during this, you need a job. It will take several years (at least!) So you had better find something that will not take all your time or energy. And these type of jobs do require their own qualifications. It's already been said, but it will pay you in the long run to have an engineering or similar degree in your back pocket. Three years of your life is not much in the long term.

I was absolutely sure about ten years ago that music was it, this was my path. And it still is. But because I managed to drag myself away from the home studio and into college every now and then, I did finish an electronics degree. And now I work on build and test of some very nice broadcast mixing consoles as as day job. I leave at 4:30pm, and am in front of my DAW at 5:30pm every work day (well, except Friday, when we finish at lunch time). And of course, I have all day Saturday and Sunday, also just for my music. I can afford the music kit. I can afford to press my own CDs. And not worry a damn about it selling. That's creativity!

So it depends on what you call success. Define your success, your goals, and see how you get on!

Best of luck,

miKe

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"It's all gone quiet." said Rhubarb
"Not nearly quiet enough." said John Cage

Edited by Mike McLoone (02/04/11 07:56 PM)

Quote Nutshell Cavities:

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he will, without fail, tirelessly repeat the same advice whenever this type of question comes up!

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Just to be clear, I agree with you! Hence my (apparently too subtle) use of sarcasm.

Interesting question though isn't it? What to do with my life?

I mean we have a young chap here, A Levels akimbo. He's seen that its a waste of time going to the Big Leather Chair College of Electric Dreams when the only place to really go is the Guildford College of Audio Genius and he's stumped for what to do.

Red has suggested he actually takes an engineering course, like real ebgineering with maths and proper exams and certificates and everything. Others have suggested that he phone up lots of people and ask them what to do. Some have suggested he should go and live in a squat! We've even had a statistical analysis of working time career probability/productivity/life-time curves.

It's fascinating stuff.

I suppose the fact is that as it stands at the moment, there aren't any jobs for recording engineers. In fact as a young man with tender flesh i would be very wary of actually knocking on a studio door looking for a job through fear of being roasted and eaten, my fillings melted down and sold for scrap to pay the electricity bill.

I suppose we have to remember that recording is a mature but shrinking industry. People work at home and do their own engineering because the tech has facilitated a cottage approach. Established engineers and musicians have kids, and friends with kids, and friends of friends and as Red pointed out above, the old guys aren't laying down yet, they can't afford to! The maturity of this craft means that it's very hard to break into as an outsider, hell, it's hard as an insider! Gone are the days of a couple of years off to go travelling or something, people are scred that they'll get back and the business will have disappeared or someone else will be blowing all their contacts.

You can see how the business is going. It's fallen to the shite-hawks scraping the last bit of Marmite out of the bottom of the pot with a cocktail stick and the fat boys with a big catering size jar. The middle (which was basically always just a bunch of hustlers destined for toothless blue-nosd ugliness) has gone. The bit that provided a living for thousands has gone elsewhere; sanitisd and boxed and marketed into 'home recording tools' The top is still there, the bottom is still there (and i think this might be your avenue) but the middle has gone. That bit where hoardes of hopefulls flooded into pro-am studios at the weekends to make demos etc, and RCs bought out blocks of time for their developing acts. That's all gone bar the crumbs.

How about the live music scene though? I refered to it as the bottom but it really depends how you look at it. I reckon the easiest (though still tough) paid route into engineering is via the live scene.

You are in the right place, just outside Manchester, and at the right time because recessions make kids pissed off and they fuel great cultural movements. History will show you this. A recession is a great time to be involved in arts and entertainment because as a race we have to get creative to move on, and this big cretive-thinking-stew will always have its music. Always has, always will.

Yep, i'd be looking to get round the pubs and clubs and seeing who's getting the best groupies and seeing if you can hump some gear for them... husltle, make friends, become a face, be known. At worst you are out there and having a great time and at best you start to find your tribe. Oh, and get some education at the same time, like wot Red said. Days are very long when you're young and there's plenty of time for fifteen hours a week to get a bit of paper and you apply the learning to your life as you work your way towards your goal, or discover that it's not for you and at least you'll have a bit of paper to wave at people when we come out of this chaos in about five years.

But get out of that bedroom, nothing in there.

Bon Chance!

Lovely inputs for Dodger here ! I think all valuable. Nothing to add (I'm 44 and make electronic music for fun and mental balance as I work in marketing of drinks by day), but here are my 2 cents : i think the music industry and newbies owe a lot to the "tea" industry, and i dont work for tea drinks.

Just to say Sir James Dyson (the vacuum cleaner guy) wrote a letter to The Independent last week saying that the UK was producing a dismal 24,000 graduates a year with real engineering degrees.

And there are, today, 35,000 unfilled engineering vacancies.

He's taken a big chunk of his own business offshore because he has to, he can't get the staff.

Are we f***in crazy or what?

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Dynamite with a laser beam...

Quote Steve Hill:

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Are we f***in crazy or what?

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Maybe...

But our golf courses are arguably managed better than anywhere else in the world as well as the UK having amongst our workforce some of the best qualified aromatherapists anywhere!

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Website / Music Lab Machines / Blog

As an addendum to that, Steve, there's the extra issue of whether a degree even in a relevant subject is actually any good.

I went to Loughborough to do an MEng in electronic engineering. I knew I wanted to do embedded software before I went there, and their course looked OK for that. When I got there though, the lecturers doing relevant stuff had pissed off a year or two earlier - turns out that although Loughborough had a good reputation in industry, that was all built on the backs of people who'd left. If I wanted to do power electronics, I was sorted. Anything to do with software - fuggedit. But there's a Computer Science department doing robot vision and stuff like that? Sure there is, kid, but we can't let you do modules there. Frigging joy.

In my fourth year, when I was going through compulsory Materials Science classes (a right lot of use *that* was!), I went to the head of department and complained that their degree was doing sod all for me or anyone else aiming at embedded software. His answer: "We're going to teach you things we think you should learn, not things that will be useful to you." In the final year of an engineering course?! F**k right off!!!

I got decent grades, hit work, got experience and never looked back. How much of my uni stuff did I ever use? Hardly a damn thing, is the simple answer - all it did for me was get me a first job, basically. There were no tuition fees at the time, so they could maybe justify it at the time, and all it wasted was my time. But today, if I was paying £9k to be taught something which the lecturers knew damn well wasn't going to be f**k all use to the students, I would have been absolutely livid.

Don't get me wrong, there are great teaching unis out there. Manchester and Imperial, both of which I considered, are generally regarded as top notch. Loughborough may now be good - dunno. But suffice to say that quality of courses really does vary, in "real" engineering as much as in Music Technology or anything else.

Back to the OP. Based on my experience, I would seriously recommend getting on an electronic engineering course somewhere, but make sure that your course will let you take a significant number of relevant modules from other departments. You can then pull in related subjects (e.g. electronic instruments) and work towards something that'll be useful to you *and* interesting.

I'd add my support to the notion of studying a traditional academic engineering degree if you have the mind set to cope with it. It will inherently provide a Plan B as far as earning a living is concerned, and in my experience, make you far more adaptable and employable generally.

After all, if you have some idea of how something works, you can easily figure out how to use it. If, instead, all you know is how to use a specific piece of equipment you're going to be lost when someone provides a different piece of equipment.

A practical example is the number of times I've found students completely fazed after learning about modern compressors with threshold controls when they then come across a vintage unit with only an input level control!

As for the previous poster's issues with the Electronic Engineering course content, it is obviously important to pay meticulous attention to the planned course syllabus and staff members -- the prospectus may well be out of date and all courses evolve and change emphasis over time, not least because of changes in staff and their expertise.

Having said that, a university course isn't supposed to be vocational. It's supposed to provide the undergraduates with a broad range of knowledge and experience, while teaching them how to think for themselves. The previous poster highlighted this when commenting that the degree landed him his first job, and he then forged his own career from there. That's what a university education is supposed to be about.

Funnily enough, I did an electronics degree. Hated the power engineering stuff and thought I'd never ever use it. Joined the BBC as a video engineer to maintain and develop leading edge video processing and cameras. First job on station was to help fix the standby generator set...

But the point was that I was able to understand the system, fault find in an effective way, and work safely to fix the fault. And over the many years that have followed a lot of things I thought had no relevance at all at university have actually helped me along the way.

So my advice is not to be blinkered or dismissive. The idea is to learn how to learn, and to be able to apply a broad range of fundamental knowledge to unfamiliar challenges.

hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

This is all very well chaps but surely with the OP's subject choice and grades, he's going to struggle to get onto a numerical degree course.. he'd need better grades, and maths, surely?

(Not that I know.. it's a long time since I did my A-levels, and a long while before my kids will be doing theirs...)

Quote grab:

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But today, if I was paying £9k to be taught something which the lecturers knew damn well wasn't going to be f**k all use to the students, I would have been absolutely livid.

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In a funny way, you make a case for £9k a year fees. In (a variation of) an old Yorkshire phrase, there's owt that's free and there's owt that's valuable. Free stuff is seldom valued. (Digress to a downloading discussion here if you wish!).

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Dynamite with a laser beam...

Education is weight-lifting for the brain. Very very little of it has real world use.

I would say broaden your horizons. It's not enough to just want to be a sound engineer or solely a composer for games. You want to strive to be jack of as many trades as possible, and master of them all, especially in the state that the industry is in now. You may find that you end up doing just one of these jobs, but adding as many strings to your bow as possible will certainly help getting through the door.

With regards to music courses, there are some very cynical views towards these places. I chose to study at ACM in Guildford, and whilst I agree that the content of these courses may barely scratch the surface of what 'real' industry experience is like, I have used it as a platform for progression, meeting some highly skilled and like minded musicians, and gaining valuable contacts, and I'm not talking just local assistant engineers, through the academy. Yes, I may be taking on some debt, and the qualification itself from an industry standpoint probably won't be worth the paper it is written on, but at no other point in my life will I be able to apply my full undivided attention to my career without having earning a wage elsewhere. And it is starting to pay dividends. My skills in both my intended field and other fields have improved no end, from web design and writing for adverts, to business planning and self-confidence in networking and real life situations.

So come as the full package. That's my advice anyway.
Good luck!

Quote grab:

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How much of my uni stuff did I ever use? Hardly a damn thing, is the simple answer - all it did for me was get me a first job, basically.

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And there's the rub...

I am privileged to work with some of the finest programmers in the world when working with manufacturers on products ... they bring us a lot of the gear we use every day.

Their uni degree did bugger all for them in practical terms - almost totally useless for 'the real world' as it were.

BUT....

That 'proper' qualification with a 'proper' degree in a respected discipline got their foot in the door, first with XYZ at the scum end of the food chain but THAT'S where they REALLY learnt... which led them onto their next position and so on to the point now that they have such a formidable portfolio of proven successes that they can call the shots and manufacturers are falling over themselves to pay them handsomely on a freelance basis or have them on their books as employees.

Then there's the ex-washing machine/TV repair man chum of mine with a passion for audio who used his Polytechnics electronics quals to get a job servicing tape machines and then went on to design some major synths and is still a major player in the industry.

On the other hand, there's another chum of mine who studied philosophy in the 60s but was expelled because he was spending/wasting too much of his time playing bass and building amps for his mates but went on to make seminal pieces of gear that are now revered.

Life (and one's career) is what you make it and there are no hard and fast rules...

BUT...

A 'proper' degree in a (possibly boring) 'proper' subject is FAR more likely to get your foot in the door. It's up to you where you take it after that.

Also...

There is FAR much more to this business than just ligging around in studios (which are dying on their feet) and hanging out with celebs. That's just attractive froth and sadly what a lot of 'music tech' courses play on.

There are bugger all 'jobs' in this industry but there is so much opportunity in this biz for those who really want to do it (qualified or otherwise) but you have to go for it and be determined.

I've cited some examples of success above... but it took them 5, 10, 15 or 20 years to achieve that.

Draw your own conclusions.

But in the interests of fairness, I should also point out that some of the top programmers I have worked with have given up on the music biz for various personal reasons and are now programming in The City and elsewhere. And who can blame them? 9-5, generous salary and benefits, maybe a good car and expense account, etc.. They hate it but...!

BUT....

Their 'proper' qualification offered them an alternative and lucrative alternative career to the music biz, something a Music Tech (ahem) 'qualification' is unlikely to do!

Oh! And one ex-music biz programmer chum of mine is bloody loving his new career in The City. Piss easy work (for him), regular hours, pays a fortune with benefits, allows him to indulge in his music hobby big time, plays in a band and it doesn't matter if they earn a living/make profit from it, whatever. He has an enviable home studio where he can indulge!

Go figure!

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Website / Music Lab Machines / Blog

FWIW, 3 Cs is the standard minimum requirement for engineering degrees. You could probably scrape in with 3 Ds in clearing (although if you only got 3 Ds then I'd seriously question whether it's worth your time and money to go to uni when you'll probably drop out in the first year). Exact grades depends on the uni of course, but as has previously been noted, engineering degrees are way undersubscribed so it's a lot easier to get in there. And all the relevant maths from A-level gets covered again in the 1st year anyway, bcos anyone coming to uni from an HND background doesn't have that maths. It's not ideal, of course, but I don't think it's a barrier to getting in.

Maybe my rant disguised my point a bit. Don't expect everything to be relevant to you, for sure. But if you can get yourself to a place where a decent chunk of it will be useful (or at least interesting), then you're going to come out with a damn sight better grade *and* you're going to have some relevant skills. Which in turn will make you more attractive to employers and give you a better chance of getting a job which gets you where you want to work.

We are dealing here with four subjects - What is the point of education? Quo Vadis Education in the UK? Quo Vadis MT? MT v. Electrical Engineering (or similar)?

1. What is the point of education?

Easy - what ever you want it to be! It can be learning for the sake of learning, or it can be learning for a well-paid job. It's totally up to the individual. The only trouble with all this, is that the more you swim down-stream, the more you are tied to a specific career later on in life. If you swim up-stream and study pure maths, you can do anything, from stock-broker to economics research. If you study economics, well, then you are going to have to stick with a career that uses that skill-set. If you do business management, you can work in any business and climb the management ladder if you are good enough, but if you do hotel management, then you are of no use in a garage or even (dare I say it!) a recording studio.

For this reason, the further down-stream you swim, the more selective you must be about the course you attend. Hence, the desirability of the Surrey Tonmeister course and the total unacceptability of others. There is nothing wrong with the others, but you are very far down-stream from pure maths, so you had better attend the best.

Sorry children, but we can't all study obscure subjects and expect society to give us a well-paid career in that subject. MT is swimming down-stream, so expect to be badly paid, or just not employed at all. Not only that, but if you do not attend one of the top colleges for that subject, you are telling the HR department that you lacked the focus, drive and intelligence to study a proper subject at a proper university. An easy degree in an easy subject and from an easy university, just tells the World that you go for the easy options. Your 'sheepskin' is what the Germans call an 'Armutszeugnis' - a certificate of poverty.

The same brutal truth applies to any of the vocational study courses. CGI, Media Tech, Catering, Food Tech, Fashion, Hotel Management, etc., etc., etc.

2. Quo Vadis education in the UK?

Wealth is created by excellence.

I shall leave that sentence there and all on its little own, so that you can read it and digest all that it implies. Wealth is created by excellence. Wealth is not created by being mediocre. This is more true for the arts than it is even for manufacturing. I have a foot in both camps and you can just about sell an average house or even an average car, but you will never, ever sell an average singer-songwriter, an average film, or fill an auditorium to listen to an average orchestra. There just are no residuals for an average white band, but plenty for The Average White Band. It is no coincidence that Adele attended The London School for Performing Arts & Technology.

.'. (therefore) if we seek wealth, we must seek excellence in education.

Public education in the UK has (almost) totally abrogated this task, to the point where droves of semi-literate, semi-numerate and totally impecunious youngsters, roam our streets; lost souls, looking for a role in society and finding none.

The A-Level of today is roughly the equivalent of the O-Level of yesterday. Most primary school teachers today cannot perform simple mathematical tasks. A recent Channel 4 programme asked a room full of primary school teachers to divide a half by a quarter and only one was able to come up with the right answer. To say that that is shocking, is to understate. Most young adults cannot identify an adverb or perform rudimentary sentence analysis. About half do not know the difference between their, there and they're.

We have bulldozed the grammar schools that took working class kids all the way to the top and replaced them with inner-city incomprehensives, where everyone is a winner! But the UK educational system tells the semi-literate and barely numerate, that a college education is theirs as of right! So now, a totally dumbed-down test ('How many fingers am I holding up - one, more than one, several?') is the pathway to a degree in golf course management.

At one and the same time, we have systematically destroyed the traditional apprenticeships that gave us the well-paid and respected careers of builder, joiner, mechanic and all the other great careers that became the foundations of society and often, the start of great and wealth creating businesses. No more day-release, doing ONC to HND building or mechanics at the local tech! Today, it is a lovely new university and teaches media studies. (My first contact with media studies was when I once had to fire the three most useless bods in a publishing house and I discovered that all three were proud alumni of this great study!)

But whilst we are floundering in the remains of what once was one of the best educational systems on Planet Earth, others (Germany and China in particular) are pulling their collective socks up and improving the standards of education in the most remarkable way. Which brings me neatly to MT.

3. Quo Vadis MT?

As Narcoman has pointed out, I have some knowledge of the German system. There, they two ways to become a recording engineer - or similar. The first is the famous Tonmeister and before any of the Surrey boys start to smile, trust me lads, most of the Surrey Tonmeister graduates would not even pass the entrance exam to one of the three German universities offering this six-year study!

Without going into details of the tests that candidates must pass to join one of the original Tonmeister courses, the first test is 60 mins of musical dictation, in which pieces are played and candidates must write down on the score, what they have just heard. Altogether, there are six or seven such tests, including basic electronics, physics, orchestration, an unprepared piano piece to be sight-read and a piece of your own choice. And then come the usual auditions, interviews and so on. Most candidates attend at least one year of music school to prepare for these entrance tests.

A second way to be the lad or lassie who sits behind that big desk, is to do a three year apprenticeship as a media technician for sound and picture (Mediengestalter, Ton und Bild). These apprenticeships are so sought after, that applicants have to either have good A-Levels (Abitur) or a qualification in a related field. Because an apprentice has to be employed as such by a studio or TV station or similar, the numbers are self-regulating. Most get in, via TV production, but many do this via recording studios, mobiles, mastering rooms, DVD authoring facilities and so on. Apprentices and moved from facility to facility, to give them an all-round education and work experience.

The 'Mediengestalter' career course was brought in over ten years ago and I was extremely sceptical, as it mixed picture and sound and even mixed in such tasks as DVD authoring, camera work, multitracking and live broadcast work. It sounded like a bit of everything, but nothing for real. As it turned out, the course has proven itself magnificently and has even effected markets outside Germany, but only because the companies that employ 'Mediengestalter' are taking work away from others outside Germany. From Queen in Glasgow to Genisis in Rome, or just that box-set of James Bond or Bourne films, all done by 'Mediengestalter.'

My opinion? That is the sort of system we need in the UK. Urgently!!!

4. MT v. Electrical Engineering (or similar)?

I have been working with renewable energy companies lately, evaluating the economics of the various types of energy storage. In this work, I have been talking to energy companies and they have told me, almost as a man, that they are desperate for graduate engineers in electrical engineering. Desperate, as in being able to recruit fewer than one-quarter of what they need. Desperate, as in unable to even bid for juicy contracts, because they just cannot get the engineers for the work. Desperate, in that they get planning permission for a scheme and then cannot even complete within the two-year window of the warrant, because of a lack of engineers. Desperate, in that they had to watch as German companies Hoch-Tief and Siemens get the only big hydro-electric scheme in decades in the UK, because UK contractors could not guarantee having enough engineers to complete the project in time.

So if you are happy with what I call the 'pooeee' law (P=UI, aka P=VI) and get all excited about Joules and his law, then you know what to do!

Quote Steve Hill:

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Just to say Sir James Dyson (the vacuum cleaner guy) wrote a letter to The Independent last week saying that the UK was producing a dismal 24,000 graduates a year with real engineering degrees.

And there are, today, 35,000 unfilled engineering vacancies.

He's taken a big chunk of his own business offshore because he has to, he can't get the staff.

Are we f***in crazy or what?

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He could have got the staff Steve, he just didnt want to pay them the going rate and could do it cheaper in the far east. I'm sure we'll find plenty of overseas candidates to fill those 35000 slots. Happens in every other sector from the civil service to IT, to everywhere else.

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www.alterzero.com || "Semper in excremento sum... solum profunditas variat"

Quote The Red Bladder:

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We are dealing here with four subjects - What is the point of education? Quo Vadis Education in the UK?

<snip>

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Excellent post, Blads, especially your perspective on the German system. I was listening to a Radio 4 prog about it only recently ... chalk and cheese compared with ours which fails young people so criminally with so-called 'Mickey Mouse' courses/degrees in non-subjects to qualify for non-jobs!

Our daughter's fiddle teacher has high hopes for her and has advised us to avoid the UK music colleges but to get over to Germany if she's to have a thorough musical education, where excellence isn't quite good enough - you have to be better than that! He's been a prof at several there and again, chalk and cheese ... even compared with the much revered Juilliard where he was a visiting prof for a while.

Quite tragic to see the UK falling lower and lower in the international education league tables when once, our education system was the envy of the world.

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Website / Music Lab Machines / Blog

What a cheerful bastard page of posts this is!

Quote Jabba1:

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Quote Steve Hill:

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Just to say Sir James Dyson (the vacuum cleaner guy) wrote a letter to The Independent last week saying that the UK was producing a dismal 24,000 graduates a year with real engineering degrees.

And there are, today, 35,000 unfilled engineering vacancies.

He's taken a big chunk of his own business offshore because he has to, he can't get the staff.

Are we f***in crazy or what?

---

He could have got the staff Steve, he just didnt want to pay them the going rate and could do it cheaper in the far east. I'm sure we'll find plenty of overseas candidates to fill those 35000 slots. Happens in every other sector from the civil service to IT, to everywhere else.

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I did find myself wondering whether Mr. Dyson offers any good old-fashioned apprenticeships (or even training schemes); or does he just expect 'the system' to provide him with ready-made engineers that are up to his standards?

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Gear List: reverse only.

Quote ow:

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What a cheerful bastard page of posts this is!

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It's as well to remember that this is not necessarily a pop at young people who are, for the most part, as bright and wonderful as they've always been (despite what the Daily Mail would have us believe) and I know loads of the buggers who are energetic in their enthusiastic devotion to their youth orchestras, jazz bands, choirs, etc.. Only the other night, we attended a concert in the City Hall where our daughter was performing a violin solo and the first half of the concert featured a youth big band who, the night before, had been performing in Glasgow, travelled home through the night, getting back at 4am then off to the Millenium Centre to at the crack of sparrows to take part in a big music workshop then straight to the gig on Monday evening. And they were fabulous.

No! This is about an education system that fails these fine young people with box ticking targeting and pigeon-holing and 'initiatives' (which are mostly for the benefit of the teachers and the school rather than the pupils) and easy option, delusional 'degrees' so that the politicos can make extravagant claims about how well educated our young people are.

My arse! My missus is a private maths tutor and she has 16 year olds going for GCSEs who can't do simple arithmetic and can barely string a sentence together in written work. And they're the brighter, more industrious kids!

There was an interesting programme on Radio 4 recently where theatre director, Trevor Nunn, did a modern English A level question about Hamlet. It was submitted anonymously. Now, Mr Nunn has directed and produced some of the finest productions of Hamlet over the years and has steered and guided some of our country's finest actors through the subtleties of the play. What he doesn't know about that play can be written on a pinhead!

He achieved a B- !

Why? Because his answer didn't tick the boxes the examination board were looking for. Bollocks to the fact that he provided deep insight into the characters and their relationships or threw up interesting thoughts on the plot and argued the basic premise of the question asked, he didn't tick the required boxes. And that, it seems, is all that matters!

The opportunity arose for Mr Nunn to discuss his mark with the examiner and she was arrogant and adamant. His thoughts and intellectual processes were of no consequence - he didn't tick the boxes!

Tragic!

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Website / Music Lab Machines / Blog

Quote Dave Gate:

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I did find myself wondering whether Mr. Dyson offers any good old-fashioned apprenticeships (or even training schemes); or does he just expect 'the system' to provide him with ready-made engineers that are up to his standards?

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http://www.careers.dyson.com/

http://www.careers.dyson.com/jobs/results.aspx

There are currently 26 vacancies in his R&D department in the UK, including an Acoustics Engineer!

Hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Hmmm.
I entered 'training' in their keyword search box and came back with nothing

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It wasn't me!
(Well, actually, it probably was)

Quote hollowsun:

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Quote ow:

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What a cheerful bastard page of posts this is!

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It's as well to remember that this is not necessarily a pop at young people who are, for the most part, as bright and wonderful as they've always been...

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But they'll soon have that banged out of them, right?

Not to make the mistake of using anecdotal evidence to define broader trends - that would be silly.

We have a very 'down' attitude here in the UK and quiet deperation really is the English way, always has been a melancholy place. Something i noticed when i went for my first long trip overseas, returning to a kind of mind-numbing drab order of grayness where the plebs hang their heads in a kind of knowing that as a culture that had tried just about every possible way to be, we still hadn't found one that works. The promise has always been empty.

Africa is a weird place, everyone's happy! God only knows why when they are being raped and pilfered by the 'developed' world.

Interesting studies recently go some way toward proving something we've always known - that disparity is the biggest generator of unhappiness and discontentment in a society. No surprise then that figures out today show a 43% increase in the use of anti-depressants since 2006. Cut it whatever way you like, to get them you have to go to the doctor and be 'unhappy'.

And lets face it, we are a miserable bunch of buggers and there's actually so much to be happy about!

I blame the parents.

Become a carpenter and move to a hot country. You'll be happier than you've ever been in your entire life.

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http://soundcloud.com/anthony-wall/sets/audio-reel
http://songsforvoiceandpiano.com/

Quote Jabba1:

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He could have got the staff Steve, he just didnt want to pay them the going rate and could do it cheaper in the far east. I'm sure we'll find plenty of overseas candidates to fill those 35000 slots. Happens in every other sector from the civil service to IT, to everywhere else.

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I'm a software engineer specialising in real-time embedded software. I spent 7 years at a company involved in software for automotive applications. The hybrid Ford Explorer they sold in the US has some of my code in the engine controls. I led a team on the on-board diagnostics software for a model of current Transit and Ducato. I've done some work on making Aston Martins run. I've helped make the current Jaguar dash work. That's the kind of thing this company does, and whilst a lot of it is drudge work (there's nothing fun about testing), seeing a car working because of your software is usually pretty cool. I left to go contracting in 2006, and now I'm back at the same place again as a contractor.

After the disaster zone that was 2008, this place is now on the way up again. Tier 1 manufacturers are starting to push loads of work their way, so they need more engineers. They're happy to hire people out of uni and start their professional career. They're a great bunch of folk to work with. It's based in an old manor house just outside Cambridge. There's muntjac deer, rabbits and squirrels in the couple of acres of garden around it. There's free coffee and fruit in the mornings. OK, they don't pay high, but they're not bad - certainly around average. And other benefits (pension etc) are pretty good.

Can they find permie engineers? Can they f**k.

This is great for old hands like me, bcos we know we're going to be on fairly long-term contracts until eventually enough people come through. It's a bit pants for the company though.

Re James Dyson, remember why he went out to the Far East in the first place? Not a single British bank or venture capitalist would invest in his business, and not a single British or American company was interested in picking up his invention. So he took it to Japan, and that's who got the return on the investment. And then Hoover stole his idea, and he had to sue them. He got the court case done before he ran out of money for lawyers, but apparently it was a close-run thing. And one of the reasons he moved production to the Far East was because he couldn't find anywhere that'd let him build a factory to employ more people.

If I was James Dyson, I'd be saying f**k the UK. People won't work in engineering, the government won't support engineering, and the financial institutions won't invest in engineering. Maggie and then Labour made a conscious decision to bet the UK economy on the financial services sector instead - which is why we're currently in the sh*tter, after the banks took a nose-dive.

Quote Handlestash:

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Become a carpenter and move to a hot country. You'll be happier than you've ever been in your entire life.

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Amen.

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Samplecraze
Stretch That Note

Quote Zukan:

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Quote Handlestash:

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Become a carpenter and move to a hot country. You'll be happier than you've ever been in your entire life.

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Amen.

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I'm quite serious. I worked with a carpenter my first 6 months in Vancouver. Didn't think about anything industry related in that whole time. Didn't even have a guitar. Worked outside most of the summer (at one point in 30-35o heat during a 3 week heatwave)Got a great colour, lost weight, was paid cash in hand every Friday. It was the best job I ever had and seriously thought about packing music in and taking an apprenticeship.
Then the aliens attacked and my whole world changed.

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http://soundcloud.com/anthony-wall/sets/audio-reel
http://songsforvoiceandpiano.com/

A few years ago I had a chance to chat briefly with author Harlan Ellison. He said the smartest thing he ever did (other than marry his current wife) was to get his union card as a stonemason ("in case this writing thing doesn't pan out"). A journeyman mason hereabouts readily earns $20-$40/hour. Unlike most "career" jobs, a crafts-union member can save up some cash, take a month or two off for other pursuits (music, say), then jump back in at the same pay-rate.

I also once spoke to a lead engineer with Honeywell. He wanted his new engineers to have a thorough grounding in methods & basic theory, but felt that too many right out of college tended to rote-recite their professors rather than to think with any originality. "I'd rather hire a smart literature major who tinkers with radios in his basement than an engineering student with no real-world experience."

play an instrument
go to uni/college etc etc and meet likeminded people

you need to create the scene - we have lots of people saying 'to be an engineer you need to go to guildford etc etc etc' - it's bullshit

create your own vibe...manchester is much better to be in than london...christ, leeds has the hold on all horns played with amy winehouse etc etc etc...london is a waste of time......there are too many people there thinking they are important and being very poor......

make your own money, make your own vibe, enjoy your education whilst you still can afford to (cause my sons are going to struggle to pay £9000 plus a year just to go...and they are 11 and 5 at the mo).and get everything you can from it

don't rely on 40 yr old studio owners to give you any money - they have 40 yr old wives to pay for - and they can't do it anymore, hence the mass closure of studios round the country

get in with a wizz bedroom game maker, and make music for him

most importantly - be a musician!! - and enjoy your life - you know it;s not all about getting a porsche and a fit model bird...manchester has a lot more vibe than london - go for the vibe!!!

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http://soundcloud.com/seaapes

Hey, Dodger - you still reading this thread or have the nasty old men scared you off?

I'd be happy to post my own thoughts as someone who's gone through the modern 'music tech degree' route and actually got somewhere with it, but I won't bother if it won't get read!

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http://www.jeremycorbett.co.uk

If despite people telling you not to do it you still want to. I say do it. Seems you have a good opportunity and it's all you can think about. You'd regret not doing it more.

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I define success

Quote Wease:

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my sons are going to struggle to pay £9000 plus a year just to go...and they are 11 and 5 at the mo

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They won't be paying £9k a year. They can (and should) apply for student loans. They will automatically qualify for 72% of the amounts available depending on whether they're living at home or away and/or in London. The remaining 28% depends on your household's income. This would only be repayable if/when they start to earn £21,000 or more p.a. (previously £15,000 under the last incumbents). Even then, there can be extenuating circumstances whereby they might not be required to pay it (or at least all of it) back.

They can also apply for a maintenance grant (which does not require paying back) if your household brings in £50k or less.

So if and when your boys go to uni, they (you) won't have to suddenly find £9,000 a year. A chum of mine has two girls starting uni and he's quite chuffed at the new scheme.

Don't believe what tidbits of misinformation the media chooses to feed you!

Quote Wease:

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don't rely on 40 yr old studio owners to give you any money - they have 40 yr old wives to pay for - and they can't do it anymore, hence the mass closure of studios round the country

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Actually, the real reason is that people think they can do it all on a laptop now and don't need to use a 'proper' studio. Which is true ....

Up to a point.

Quote Wease:

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you know it;s not all about getting a porsche and a fit model bird...

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Bugger!!! Really? Damn!!!

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Website / Music Lab Machines / Blog

Quote hollowsun:

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Quote Wease:

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my sons are going to struggle to pay £9000 plus a year just to go...and they are 11 and 5 at the mo

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They won't be paying £9k a year. They can (and should) apply for student loans. They will automatically qualify for 72% of the amounts available depending on whether they're living at home or away and/or in London. The remaining 28% depends on your household's income. This would only be repayable if/when they start to earn £21,000 or more p.a. (previously £15,000 under the last incumbents). Even then, there can be extenuating circumstances whereby they might not be required to pay it (or at least all of it) back.

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They will have to pay £9000 a year, it's just a case of when they have to pay it back.

I went to uni just before tuition fees came in and only took out 2 years of student loans (having had a years worth in savings which was supposed to pay for my first car), so that's about £7k TOTAL. Students these days will be looking at more like £50k total.

Seven years after graduating I've recently finished paying it off - the £50 a month I was paying is now finally going towards a pension. God knows how much someone with £50,000 debts will be paying a month, and for how long.

Unless you are studying to becoming a doctor or lawyer or something with a pretty much guaranteed high income, I can't see why university is now anything other than a playground for the rich and privileged.

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http://www.jeremycorbett.co.uk

Quote Mahoobley:

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Unless you are studying to becoming a doctor or lawyer or something with a pretty much guaranteed high income, I can't see why university is now anything other than a playground for the rich and privileged.

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In fairness, nobody has to pay anything at all back until they are earning £21k a year, and it seems highly likely that many people will never repay in full. The debt is then written off - it's not a claim on your deceased estate.

I agree it's a mess for many reasons, but affordability is not necessarily one of them. It's not far off being a graduate tax (and IMO they should have gone for that, and called it that).

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Dynamite with a laser beam...

Thanks for the help guy ive been thinking a lot (thus taking a while to reply)

i think ive decided im going to try and get an apprentship in accounting or something along those line and spend a lot of time in my studio trying to home my skills and possibly with the idea of turning that into a business in 3 5 or even 10 years time u know but in the mean time ill hopefully be earning a living in a job with some carrera prospects if my studio never takes off. and if i ever do get stuck in a dead end job ill do a part time degree not get any massive student debts u know?

thanks again

Jack

Red Bladder, if you are an attractive young lady I hereby ask you to marry me, here and now. If you are a politician I will vote for you... etc. etc. Wonderful, honest, and true statements.

I can only add that as an 'adopted' Brit (come 25 years ago to this highland) one of the first (minor) shocks was the title value of 'engineer' here... In Italy, Germany, Spain, and China (the countries I know better) the title of Eng. is the most prestigious title a person can hold. Having a daughter (or son, yes) getting 'engaged' to an engineer is a source of pride higher than to a doctor or layer.

Here an 'engineer' is the bloke with a GCSE in media studies installing your software at PC World... what the ^*"%?

Crazy, from a country who gave birth to some of the most brilliant engineers in the world in the 19th century!

Forget about the 'Media Studies' and degree in Golf Course Management (I loved that...)! Further, in my opinion obviously, the general culture in this country is very low (look at the tabloids!) because the mechanism of the 'A' levels means that young people give up key 'cultural' subjects (e.g. history, languages, maths) at far too young age! I originally trained as an accountant (!) but still carried subjects such as science, arts and Italian literature up to my final exams (at the age of 19). This is the same in most places in (the rest of) Europe.

And now my appeal:

ABOLISH THOSE MT Mickey Mouse courses! Please! Unless they state clearly they are there for 'enthusiasts' to improve their skills for their hobbies (like in 'extreme' knitting and fly fishing...), and wonderful as they are for this end..., please colleges, do not offer them as career opportunities! I set up one of the first ones in the UK nearly 20 years ago for the task of attracting 'academic shy' teens to college... failing. Jobs in the industries? Don't make me laugh...

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www.bugiolacchi.com
Songwriter/guitarist

Quote Dodger:

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ill hopefully be earning a living in a job with some carrera prospect

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There are better cars to aspire to than a Porsche!

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Website / Music Lab Machines / Blog

Quote Dodger:

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i think ive decided im going to try and get an apprentship in accounting or something

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Carpentry...

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http://soundcloud.com/anthony-wall/sets/audio-reel
http://songsforvoiceandpiano.com/

Quote bugiolacchi:

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Red Bladder, if you are an attractive young lady I hereby ask you to marry me, here and now. If you are a politician I will vote for you... etc. etc.

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Not being a politician, I gratefully and humbly accept your kind offer of marriage.

I must however point out that I am no longer as young as I once was, though I have been described by many as 'passing-lovely' - but with me, this is so much the case, that I have had to go around a second time!

I all fairness, I feel that there are one or two things that we ought to clear up, before signing on the dotted line. Firstly I refuse to sleep in a bed. I have always slept on the floor, though nowadays I do use a mattress. So you are welcome to share my floor-space with me, but I am, sure that we'll get along just fine, just you and me and the Great Dane. Oh yes, I forgot to mention that I like to share the bed, well, mattress, with a Great Dane or two, especially in Winter. But don't worry, they don't get jealous and only cut-up rough if you get too greedy with the duvet.

Secondly, I like to sleep with the radio on. I hope that this is not a problem. I tend to listen to the BBC and I only have to hear a few seconds of "This is the BBC and here is the news . . ." and I am gone.

Thirdly, despite my obvious loveliness, I am bald. This has never really been a problem, as I wear a bobbly hat in bed.

And lastly, before love-making, I like to wash cold. This can sometimes lead to a certain amount of screaming, but I find a cold shower or basin-wash extremely invigorating. Trust me, you'll enjoy it!

Fortunately, my wife is extremely broad-minded, though there have been dark mutterings lately about Great Danes and the smell they produce.

(Stewie Griffin voice)Oh it's good to laugh again.

Seriously TRB, that post made my day.

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http://soundcloud.com/anthony-wall/sets/audio-reel
http://songsforvoiceandpiano.com/

hmmm, too tempting for words!!

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www.bugiolacchi.com
Songwriter/guitarist

Quote Steve Hill:

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In fairness, nobody has to pay anything at all back until they are earning £21k a year, and it seems highly likely that many people will never repay in full. The debt is then written off - it's not a claim on your deceased estate.

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i'm still failing to see how it's a good thing for students to be in debt for the rest of their lives, whether or not it "counts" when applying for mortgages etc.

all it does is punish those who do well and get a good job, whilst providing a free education for those rubbish low-quality degrees.

plus the number of universities who say they're going to charge the full £9k completely undermines the point of the top fees only being charged by the very best institutions.

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hourglass | random thoughts | doubledotdash!? collective

Quote bugiolacchi:

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hmmm, too tempting for words!!

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He's not mentioned that you'd need to be actively involved in some forestry as well. You CAN handle a chainsaw and drive a tractor, can't you?!

Worth bearing in mind before you shack up with him!

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Website / Music Lab Machines / Blog

Quote onesecondglance:

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i'm still failing to see how it's a good thing for students to be in debt for the rest of their lives, whether or not it "counts" when applying for mortgages etc.

all it does is punish those who do well and get a good job, whilst providing a free education for those rubbish low-quality degrees.

plus the number of universities who say they're going to charge the full £9k completely undermines the point of the top fees only being charged by the very best institutions.

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Indeed. It's been allowed to get into a right bloody mess over the last 10-15 years or so and one of the biggest culprits has been burdening universities with having to provide degrees in subjects that were once evening classes so that the politicos can blithely claim that the UK has more young people in university than ever before. It's arsewash!

Yes - we may have more young people in university than ever before ...

Studying to get degrees in subjects that are no use to anyone, least of all the students themselves!

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Website / Music Lab Machines / Blog

Quote grab:

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Quote Jabba1:

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He could have got the staff Steve, he just didnt want to pay them the going rate and could do it cheaper in the far east. I'm sure we'll find plenty of overseas candidates to fill those 35000 slots. Happens in every other sector from the civil service to IT, to everywhere else.

---

I'm a software engineer specialising in real-time embedded software. I spent 7 years at a company involved in software for automotive applications. The hybrid Ford Explorer they sold in the US has some of my code in the engine controls. I led a team on the on-board diagnostics software for a model of current Transit and Ducato. I've done some work on making Aston Martins run. I've helped make the current Jaguar dash work. That's the kind of thing this company does, and whilst a lot of it is drudge work (there's nothing fun about testing), seeing a car working because of your software is usually pretty cool. I left to go contracting in 2006, and now I'm back at the same place again as a contractor.

After the disaster zone that was 2008, this place is now on the way up again. Tier 1 manufacturers are starting to push loads of work their way, so they need more engineers. They're happy to hire people out of uni and start their professional career. They're a great bunch of folk to work with. It's based in an old manor house just outside Cambridge. There's muntjac deer, rabbits and squirrels in the couple of acres of garden around it. There's free coffee and fruit in the mornings. OK, they don't pay high, but they're not bad - certainly around average. And other benefits (pension etc) are pretty good.

Can they find permie engineers? Can they f**k.

This is great for old hands like me, bcos we know we're going to be on fairly long-term contracts until eventually enough people come through. It's a bit pants for the company though.

Re James Dyson, remember why he went out to the Far East in the first place? Not a single British bank or venture capitalist would invest in his business, and not a single British or American company was interested in picking up his invention. So he took it to Japan, and that's who got the return on the investment. And then Hoover stole his idea, and he had to sue them. He got the court case done before he ran out of money for lawyers, but apparently it was a close-run thing. And one of the reasons he moved production to the Far East was because he couldn't find anywhere that'd let him build a factory to employ more people.

If I was James Dyson, I'd be saying f**k the UK. People won't work in engineering, the government won't support engineering, and the financial institutions won't invest in engineering. Maggie and then Labour made a conscious decision to bet the UK economy on the financial services sector instead - which is why we're currently in the sh*tter, after the banks took a nose-dive.

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And why you can get 1000 quotes on insurance for you and your pet nowadays but you're flooped if you want your boiler fixed so you won't freeze to death this winter. (not generalising engineers as boiler-men)

Quote The Red Bladder:

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Quote Dodger:

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Im currently taking Music, Physics and music technology. should hopfully get 3 c's or if all goes really well B C C with the B in technology

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Here we go again!

1. MT is not an academic subject, so you have two A-Levels in the offing and not three. I suggest you take a long hard look at something else!

2. We get somewhere between 100 and 200 job-apps a year, more if I count all the silly emails. Just about all these come from young boys who have attended some provincial college or uni and graduated in MT. Pretty much none of them can read music or a circuit diagram, which always makes me smile, as one is forced to ask what happened to music and technology, when studying er, music-technology!

3. At your tender age, the work of a recording engineer looks interesting and exciting. Trust me - it ain't! It is work, just like anything else. It is those parts of the industry that are the most boring, that are usually the best paid.

4. The pay is crap - there just is no other way to put it! The most credited engineer of all time (you name 'em and he's recorded them, Stones, Tina, Pavarotti, Genesis, Michael Jackson, I could go on and on, listing almost everybody except Elvis and P. Floyd) lives in an ordinary, rented house. He is a friend of mine and we have known one another since we both had hair! Below him come thousands and thousands of hopefuls, struggling to get to work with just one of the hundreds of 'names' that he can put on his c.v.

5. Other careers are also very interesting - but career teachers at school have very little idea of what goes on in the real World. They think of retail as being shelf-stacking, when it is one of the most interesting careers you can get and offers some of the best opportunities for travel and international postings. Everything from economics to engineering is what you make of it.

6. Business is still the most interesting and exciting career choice of all - and offers real chances, as opposed to silly illusions, as does the music industry. When I am not a studio owner, I run a business - in that role, I get to solve real problems and talk to real people with real budgets. Then I go into the studio and have to explain to some totally impecunious berk, that two drum kits, both very badly played, on a recording is a silly idea.

7. If you are not academically inclined (and the incorrect grammar in your postings would suggest that!) then how about doing an engineering subject (metallurgy, electrical engineering, building tech., etc.) at tech college, doing the old ONC to HND route?

8. Right now, there are more opportunities for young people than at any other time in history. Please don't throw away your future on a path to nowhere, gaining a qualification that only serves to do harm!

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I have only one question, where would music be today if everybody followed this advice?

Quote ElecTrika-MixTek:

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Quote The Red Bladder:

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Quote Dodger:

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Im currently taking Music, Physics and music technology. should hopfully get 3 c's or if all goes really well B C C with the B in technology

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Here we go again!

1. MT is not an academic subject, so you have two A-Levels in the offing and not three. I suggest you take a long hard look at something else!

2. We get somewhere between 100 and 200 job-apps a year, more if I count all the silly emails. Just about all these come from young boys who have attended some provincial college or uni and graduated in MT. Pretty much none of them can read music or a circuit diagram, which always makes me smile, as one is forced to ask what happened to music and technology, when studying er, music-technology!

3. At your tender age, the work of a recording engineer looks interesting and exciting. Trust me - it ain't! It is work, just like anything else. It is those parts of the industry that are the most boring, that are usually the best paid.

4. The pay is crap - there just is no other way to put it! The most credited engineer of all time (you name 'em and he's recorded them, Stones, Tina, Pavarotti, Genesis, Michael Jackson, I could go on and on, listing almost everybody except Elvis and P. Floyd) lives in an ordinary, rented house. He is a friend of mine and we have known one another since we both had hair! Below him come thousands and thousands of hopefuls, struggling to get to work with just one of the hundreds of 'names' that he can put on his c.v.

5. Other careers are also very interesting - but career teachers at school have very little idea of what goes on in the real World. They think of retail as being shelf-stacking, when it is one of the most interesting careers you can get and offers some of the best opportunities for travel and international postings. Everything from economics to engineering is what you make of it.

6. Business is still the most interesting and exciting career choice of all - and offers real chances, as opposed to silly illusions, as does the music industry. When I am not a studio owner, I run a business - in that role, I get to solve real problems and talk to real people with real budgets. Then I go into the studio and have to explain to some totally impecunious berk, that two drum kits, both very badly played, on a recording is a silly idea.

7. If you are not academically inclined (and the incorrect grammar in your postings would suggest that!) then how about doing an engineering subject (metallurgy, electrical engineering, building tech., etc.) at tech college, doing the old ONC to HND route?

8. Right now, there are more opportunities for young people than at any other time in history. Please don't throw away your future on a path to nowhere, gaining a qualification that only serves to do harm!

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I have only one question, where would music be today if everybody followed this advice?

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'Where would music be today?' and similar such sayings implies a contextual appraisal of yesteryear - i.e. where would we be today if penny farthings had developed into cheese graters. Or where would I be today if my father had not met my mother.

But of course, Bladder's post refers to today - one clue is in the phrase "right now" given in point 8.

So you are essentially saying 'where would music be today if everybody followed the advice given above relating to what we're doing today?'.

Isn't that a trifle meaningless? I don't mean to be pedantic but perhaps you could rephrase your comment as I find it rather irksome.

Thanks.

I can't remember the last time I had trifle.

Hope that helps.

Was it recently?

Is trifle today as good as it was, say, today?

I don't remember. In fact, I can't remember now any more than I could remember just now.

Quote DoItAgain:

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I don't remember. In fact, I can't remember now any more than I could remember just now.

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I'm like that. Sometimes I just don't even know what day it is. Like, is it Saturday? or is it, say, Saturday?