Hello

I refer to an article by Matt Houghton in May 2010 called 'Hybrid Systems' and in particular to this extract from Hugh Robjohns....

'I’ve often found that routing the final ITB mix through a nice analogue outboard device — something with well-designed analogue stages and transformers, even with processing stages bypassed — can add just the right amount of colour needed to create a certain character in the end result.'

I'm thinking of trying this type of set-up but am unclear about how I get the mix (post-analogue outboard)both back into the computer and into a monitor controller. Can the signal simply be split or is it best to take it back into the computer and monitor from their via another pair of inteface outputs?

Cheers

dr [colour:brown] [/colour]

You can either designate a spare IO pair as a hardware insert in your DAW and use that insert across the 2bus, or if you're summing, output multiple tracks across your DA converter to your summing or desk, output stereo to your bus chain and return on a stereo AD pair. You return that in the software on an auxiliary input routed to the monitor controller. In both cases you need a spare DA for monitoring or a monitor controller with its own DA stage.

You can monitor the output of analogue bus chain by splitting it before the AD but it's a bad idea because you won't be hearing any effect that AD is having, have the chance to AB your new mix with an older version or hear the effect of plug ins or automation applied to the mix.

J

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www.jackruston.com

Not sure about all DAWs, but in some cases you can define external I/O as a named 'plug-in'. This makes it a doddle to insert hardware wherever in the chain you like without having to get into routing each time. In your DAW it looks like any other plug-in.

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An Eagle for an Emperor, A Kestrel for a Knave.

It is as long as it short with the methods described above, I favour the
split output personally as then I am not hearing another digital to analogue (D to A (into analogue chain) A to D then to D to A again to hear it) compounded I have only one set of what I deem mastering grade ADDA.

cheers

SafeandSound Mastering

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Mastering online mastering

Quote SafeandSound123:

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It is as long as it short with the methods described above, I favour the
split output personally as then I am not hearing another digital to analogue (D to A (into analogue chain) A to D then to D to A again to hear it) compounded I have only one set of what I deem mastering grade ADDA.

cheers

SafeandSound Mastering

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thanks for your replies guys. How might I achieve the 'split output', though?

It all depends on what you're "splitting out" to. If u want to run your mix through some cool analog device then the outboard insert method might be the easiest.

If you are wanting to start "analog summing" then you should look at something like a Dangerous D Box.

The comment about avoiding un necessary conversions and his use of the term split out is probably not really a split (I think). He's probably talking about sending the mix through an analog device and instead of returning it to the daw he goes direct into whatever format he's mixing to. Like a tape machine. And then monitoring the output of that device. If ur mixing to something like a masterlink the decision comes down to whether u like the converters in the masterlink or the audio interface. I only tried to clarify that because the term split might make u think ur supposed to send it 2 places at once. And I don't think that was the intention. If I'm wrong I'm wrong.

I think that if u are wanting to get some analog coolness into ur mix, and u don't have a Manley massive passive eq or some neve or API eq's or comps in ur rack then the summing box is the way to go. The dangerous d box is a great solution for small studios. Go check out all the features. To use a summing box, instead of having one master fader, main out, whatever, u will make 4 stereo outputs and then assign tracks to various ones. The d box has 8 analog in's. U will connect these to ur 8 analog outputs on ur audio device. The d box provides ur control room speaker outputs and gives u an analog summed stereo output to send either back into the daw or to a masterlink, etc...

If I've confused everything just say so and I'll try to help.

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http://www.tipsforrecording.com

Hi Drongoloid. Can you let us know which DAW and which audio interface you have, and whether on Mac or PC, and I'll see if I can give some more specific advice.

As for what Hack is saying, there may or may not be something in analogue summing. Certainly, analogue doesn't sum 'better' (ie. it isn't more *perfect* that digital summing). FWIW I have a D-box, but only usually use it as a monitor controller (which it is brilliant for!) rather than summing.

I don't actually find that analogue summing of four stereo or eight mono stems really offers anything that running the stereo mix through a couple of nice transformer-based units doesn't — which is the whole point of what Hugh is saying! Working with a large project with individual channels running through a nice console is a different matter - but I just don't buy that the eight tracks into two offers you anything when you've already had to sum 30+ tracks down to eight in the digital domain beforehand!

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SOS Reviews Editor

thanks to everyone for their input here...and with Matt's last contribution we are getting nearer to the question (and then the answer I hope!). I run Reaper on a PC and send 12 channels into an Audiofire interface (actually an audiofire 8 and audiofire 4 chained) and bring those 12 channels up on a mackie 1402 vlz. I record through a pre-amp and Blackjack into my laptop - not through the desk. (different room!)

The point have I have got to and the one that has caused me to question the way I work is precisely that I have more tracks in my projects that need to be mixed down to 12 before outputting to the mackie. Actually the mackie does little more now than provide aux sends for my 3 bits of outboard (M one xl, D two and fmr rnc)and be a monitor controller - I imagine many people are in the same boat. Also I feel if I am going to do any mixing in reaper I might as well do it all there.

I would like to do one or the other - either get ALL the tracks out onto a desk (ie get some more I/O and a bigger desk) or mix ITB and output the stereo bus through some nice analogue kit as suggested in the original article. The former requires space I don't have (and also a large desk with loads of stuff I wont use) hence the reason I am looking at the latter.

thanks again for your interest and help! dr

Sounds like you're running a more complicated setup than you need to... and I'm not quite sure why you feel you need the VLZ mixer? The preamps are nice on that, but the EQ is a bit ordinary.

Your Audiofire stuff gives you all the IO you need to incorporate a few bits of outboard as external plug-ins, as described in the article. Your Blackjack should give you all the monitoring facilities you need if the Audiofire doesn't already. You could certainly rationalise all of that buy trading in your interfaces for a single one that does the job you want... but you don't have to if it's working.

I can't help thinking you've already answered your own question

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SOS Reviews Editor

...yes, I feel it is more complicated than it needs to be(hence the rethink) and as I said the Mackie does very little apart from route things - I don't even use the pre-amps!

So....just to clarify (and to get back to where I started, really) if I mix ITB and send that mix out of the computer into an outboard processor (for a bit of analogue colour)surely I need to send the output from there into something to hear it or back into the computer as a processed stereo mix?

not sure how my Blackjack helps with that?

also I should have said that I have a patchbay (gpo plugs) that I use.

thanks for your patience..we're getting there!!

dr

Edited by Drongoloid (26/04/11 06:55 PM)

OK. Say you have an interface with four inputs and four outputs (the minimum you need to do this). You might configure things like this:

Monitoring of your full stereo mix via outputs 1+2.
Recording of new sources via inputs 1+2.
Create a stereo 'external plug-in' (Cubase terminology - I think you need ReaInsert IIRC); and you could alternatively use mono), which uses outputs 3+4 (to send the signal to your outboard processor) and inputs 3+4 (to route the result back to your DAW).

You insert this plug-in like any other plug-in on a channel or bus, though of course there's only one instance of it. If you want the full mix to run through it, then simply place it in an insert on your master channel.

You might configure this for a specific processor, or specific patchbay ports if you want to chop and change. Personally, I opted for lots of IO so that I could connect all my outboard up in this way without having to repatch anything.

Does that help?!

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SOS Reviews Editor

that is brilliant! thank-you (all) very much for your help

dr