Hello experts and non-experts, I have a question which always puzzled me, the reverb in the mix. For example, I use some vst instruments in my song, such as kore2 for synth, ministry of rock for guitar etc, and almost all of the sound are already has some kind of reverb in it. My question is how do I deal with the reverb in mix, should I eliminate it from the source and make it all dry then put reverb through the bus or just leave it there( the sound is not bad at all) and do whatever need later. My current approach is just leaving it. But my mix sound not attracting at all, but the sound I choose I think is stunning on its own, what is the problem then, is that possible the reverb? My mix can be affected by a lot of things I know, jus want some advice on the reverb first, thanks!

Hello, non-expert here.

Quote suni:

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should I eliminate it from the source and make it all dry then put reverb through the bus

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Yes, that's where I'd start.

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http://ryanmead.net

As another non expert I'd agree with Ryan and your ears are telling you something's not right; eliminate it from source.
One tip I read (on this Forum I believe) about reverb when deciding how much to add was to get it to a level which you're happy with (by ear) and then remove a little...

I’m not really a member of the ‘if you can hear it it’s too much’ club. Subtlety has its place, of course, but often I like to HEAR reverb.

With synth patches it’s not a clear cut do/don’t scenario for me. With many older hardware synths, the Roland D-50 being a prime example, the reverb was very much a part of the patch, so much so that many of the D-50s patches have all the charm of a braying donkey when stripped of their effects.

Many software synths now have excellent built-in reverb, but it’s a safe bet that you can subjectively better it with a dedicated reverb processor. If I’m rustling up major parts of the mix, I might strip the instrument’s effects and use send effects to help them gel in with the mix. If the part is to make a cameo appearance then I might leave the built-in effects on to help it stand out.

Ultimately it’s about doing what sounds right to you.

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An Eagle for an Emperor, A Kestrel for a Knave.

Quote The Elf:

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I’m not really a member of the ‘if you can hear it it’s too much’ club. Subtlety has its place, of course, but often I like to HEAR reverb.

Ultimately it’s about doing what sounds right to you.

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I find it's more about making it obvious sometimes and removing it altogether at others - it's the CHANGES that register more with the listener, so unless you're working on a classical recording that needs to sound as if the players are all nicely spread about in a concert hall then feel free to experiment.

The main thing to avoid at all costs (IMO) is reverb 'clutter'.


Martin

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YewTreeMagic

Some performers need a splash of verb for confidence
Others hate it
I was at a Rainforest Charity single recording at SARM West
Ringo hated verb
Dave Gilmore wanted it( for tracking)
Its down to the talent and its only guide.

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I am the Walrus.

I know it is a tricky question to ask and it is subtle, from my own experience, the sound I choose is quite right on its own, but when you put them togegher in the mix, the shine starting fade away, expecially when it come up to more than 10 instruments, I think it is what martin refer as reverb clutter, which I need to remove it little by little level wisely. I didn't have the chance using any hardware synth, I think if you use patches from one source(for example roland), you may just leave it there but as in my case it is from different sources, I really need to do some work about it.If I decided to use some dedicated reverb on the bus, what is your suggestion for instruments and vocals.

I also quote something I read on the computer music mag production masters class.John fleming said,"it wasn't like today, where you have got all these presets, I was faced with a minimoog with no presets, I had to make a synth sound , a kick, a hihat, we had to make everythingfrom this one synth.I am so glad I learned that way... now my ears tel me where that space sit in the track-if I start going through presets, I will never find that sound, because they are cleverly made and loaded with effects to make them sound impressive.All these different reverbs take up too much space in the mix. I got taught how to make a sound for that specific space, so I can create this sound that is sitting exactly as i want it. Then, from the buses, you add the reverb on the rest of the track, and everything sounds consistent because all the sounds are using the smae reverb."
He mentions a few times the word"space", just wonder what exactly that mean, is that something about the reverb? I am the one of software generation, never use any hardware synth and always looking through the presets, is that so bad?

Hi, Its all about control of the sound.The chances are that the reverb on these instruments will not be the ideal effect for your mix , so lose it and add it later if its right.Reverb will also affect your performance, and I have always found input of an instrument via midi will be better controlled dry.If the performance sounds good dry then reverb , to a point, will only enhance rather than cover up mistakes/sub standard input.Dave

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My head hurts!

Quote suni:

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Hello experts and non-experts, I have a question which always puzzled me, the reverb in the mix. For example, I use some vst instruments in my song, such as kore2 for synth, ministry of rock for guitar etc, and almost all of the sound are already has some kind of reverb in it. My question is how do I deal with the reverb in mix, should I eliminate it from the source and make it all dry then put reverb through the bus or just leave it there( the sound is not bad at all) and do whatever need later. My current approach is just leaving it. But my mix sound not attracting at all, but the sound I choose I think is stunning on its own, what is the problem then, is that possible the reverb? My mix can be affected by a lot of things I know, jus want some advice on the reverb first, thanks!

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When you're noodling around in the music shop deciding which instrument to buy, a patch with reverb can sound very attractive. As you have discovered, mixing one reverb with another with another... just sounds muddy.

I think all instruments should have two modes. "Demo" with reverb enabled, "Use" with it turned off globally :-)

You can run into problems when a sound is designed not to be realistic, but to use effects, movement, reverb etc. as an integral part of its identity. Often such sounds, though appealing alone, don't fit well into a mix.

Quote suni:

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He mentions a few times the word"space", just wonder what exactly that mean, is that something about the reverb?

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It might also have to do with EQ, which is something else you might consider when listening to your mixes. If too many instruments occupy the same frequency range, it can lead to another kind of "clutter".

Why not upload an mp3 of your track for us to have a listen to?

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http://ryanmead.net

Quote ryan mead:

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Quote suni:

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He mentions a few times the word"space", just wonder what exactly that mean, is that something about the reverb?

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It might also have to do with EQ, which is something else you might consider when listening to your mixes. If too many instruments occupy the same frequency range, it can lead to another kind of "clutter".

Why not upload an mp3 of your track for us to have a listen to?

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We really need to point him to a "Mixing 101" tutorial. There must be something good in the available back-issues?

Four articles from the last 11 years in reverse order on reverb.

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jul08/articles/reverb1.htm
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/mar06/articles/usingreverb.htm
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/Oct01/articles/advancedreverb1.asp
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/may00/articles/reverb.htm

A couple on EQ.

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/aug01/articles/usingeq.asp
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/1995_articles/mar95/eq.html

And some on compression for good measure.

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/sep09/articles/compressionmadeeasy.htm
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/dec00/articles/adcompression.htm
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/1996_articles/apr96/compression.html

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http://soundcloud.com/richie-royale
http://www.mixcrate.com/richieroyale

more often than not, i have 1 reverb strapped on a buss...and everything i want reverb on ,gets sent there....i might add other reverbs to single sounds but i like having 1 for everything as a staring point....

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www.myspace.com/onemanandalaptop

I tend to do the same - for me this was a turning point in the clarity of my mixes, since previously I'd often relied on lots of hardware synths that each had their own integral multi-effects. In my experience this does make for a quick mix that gels together nicely, because it contains so much glue

However, if you take the trouble to strip off all those multi-effects and start from scratch with a single reverb, with perhaps another one or two others on specific sounds as and where required, the overall result should be well worth the extra effort.

It's more work to ge the mix to the same place, but when you do since (just like a real ensemble of musicians) your sounds will now all be sitting within the same 'space', with a much greater sense of cohesion, more transparency, and therefore more nooks and crannies for adding those 'little details' that may make all the difference to the final result.

My two 'pennorth anyway


Martin

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YewTreeMagic

Yes ryan, I think it is not only about eq, but also have problem with panning , also I didn't use any compression yet. This is my first time doing mixing, maybe better off let somebody else do it, but just want to go through it myself first.As to eq and compression, there are so many choice out there, and nealy each one of them claim they are special and different, it is kind of a puzzle for me. That is why I was reluntant to apply any of eq or compression at the first place.But now I need to do some work, and I think it is a lot of work to do, at this stage I think I may just work on it for a while and then I may upload for your opnion, at the moment, it is just not getting anywhere yet. I sorted out the monitering issue recently by using VRM, rather than before just using my HD280 pro which is really make everything sounds good.

Thanks guys, thanks for your reply. I really get ideas now. I may go through all the suggested articles if I got time, but now I think I may get to work.
Just one think I did not get any good answer yet, in my quote of john flemming, he said he once needed to get all sound from one instruments minimoog, and that make him know how to get the sound he want , if he went through all presets nowadays, he may got lost.I just wonder if anyone have the same experience as me, cause I don't use any hardware synth, and I always go through the presets, is that a bad habit for a musician, and which will(as he said) will get me lost and lose the control of the sound?is that some kind of training he's been throught, do you think I should give up the presets and do the same training as he did some 20 years ago?
The problem is I did not feel lost when I go through the presets and I think I can always find the sound I want, but as I said the problem is in the mix.
I got my first softsynth which is a komplete5 a few years ago, and from the beginning I always dive myself into the sound tweaking and kind of want to Make my own sound rather than just the presets, which is the reaktor I mean, but after a while I found I really don't have time to do the sound myself, there are so much work to do to make something happening in your mind to a finished music work.I just go through the presets now and it save me some time and as I said I can always find the sound I want, and problem is still in the mix.
I am trying a trial version of minimoog plugin at the moment, do you think I missed something on the way to my music career,is that the training john flemming had gone through?