Hi,

My current rig is a pair of JBL EON 15G2's + an EON 518S sub (will be getting another in the near future). I also have a Yamaha MG166CX mixer which has useful compression and reverb and a Behringer XR4400 4channel gate/exciter.

I have a 2u SKB case for the XR4400 and I'm wondering if there is anything else I would put into the spare 1u space that would be a really useful addition?

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www.richardpenrose.com

Suck button?

This really is one of those questions only you can answer. There must have been times during gigs when you've thought "oh I wish I had a .........". That ........ might have been more channels of compression, a delay unit, radio mic receivers, power distribution, rack light, headphone amp, rack drawer, coffee cup holder... Get something that YOU need, not something that someone else thinks might be useful.

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There's nothing we can't face... Except for bunnies

+1... only get what you need... although if you did happen to need another delay/reverb/compressor, then I can recommend the TC Electronic M300 or M350 (they're pretty much the same thing) and a footswitch for tap tempo: really useful, cheap as chips, sounds decent, and is pretty lightweight.

One of these, maybe?

Asides from that, +1 on the above. Use only what you need.
Anything else will only add up to more weight to carry around.
Don't underestimate the value of a blanking panel!

Stu.

If you wanted to improve the FOH sound you could look for a 2nd hand XTA SIDD

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PA Hire Surrey
Lighting Hire Surrey

Thanks for the replies. I guess I was looking for something that may improve/maximize my FOH sound.

What are peoples thoughts on something like the DBX DriveRack?

http://www.dbxpro.com/PA+/

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www.richardpenrose.com

Check my post out Look for a used XTA SIDD http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/feb03/articles/xtasidd.asp

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PA Hire Surrey
Lighting Hire Surrey

Oh yes the DBX... ok well they sound ok-ish but any XTA controller is miles ahead if you ask me also the user interface is very poor and nothing can be changed that quickly unlike a XTA unit.

XTA DP224's can be found for about £400 used

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PA Hire Surrey
Lighting Hire Surrey

Quote dickiefunk:

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What are peoples thoughts on something like the DBX DriveRack?

http://www.dbxpro.com/PA+/

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Whatever you do, don't buy an original Driverack PA if you value your speakers. The PA+ is fine but the DriveRack PX is probably the most appropriate for your setup.

Do you have monitors? How about a graphic eq for the monitors?

James.

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JRP Music - Audio Mastering and Restoration.
http://www.jrpmusic.net

Quote dickiefunk:

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I'm wondering if there is anything else I would put into the spare 1u space that would be a really useful addition?

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What about the Behringer DCX2496, easily one of their best products and generally well-rated as active cross-overs go -there are quite a few people on this forum that use them.

A graphic EQ could be a useful addition for general FOH sound sculpting, especially if you work in a lot of different acoustic environments. A DBX 215 would fit the bill.

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www.allyle.co.uk

Quote TheChorltonWheelie:

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What about the Behringer DCX2496, easily one of their best products and generally well-rated as active cross-overs go -there are quite a few people on this forum that use them.

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Hmm this is interesting though the name Behringer puts me off a little??

Any other user reports on this?

I will look more into the Behringer DCX2426, DBX DriveRack PX and the XTA DP224 (though I only really want to spend £200 tops).

The suggestion of a graphic EQ is the other option I was considering. I guess I need to weigh up which would give me the most bang for buck - Graphic EQ or Loudspeaker Management System?

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www.richardpenrose.com

Having owned & used all three a can tell you that the Berry unit is lovely and you cant fault it for the money... wipes the floor with regs to the DBX which i hate lol

The only thing that lets the DCX down is the limiters and you can only do so much with it before the CPU runs out of stream and you wont be able to add any other PEQ..

If i was you i would be saving a little longer and looking for a XTA (these units also hold there money)

Or maybe look at a used BSS Soundweb 9088i (i think thats right) 4in 8out but these are PC controlled - Will do everything & anything you could every wish.

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PA Hire Surrey
Lighting Hire Surrey

Quote TSH-Tim:

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Having owned & used all three a can tell you that the Berry unit is lovely and you cant fault it for the money... wipes the floor with regs to the DBX which i hate lol

The only thing that lets the DCX down is the limiters and you can only do so much with it before the CPU runs out of stream and you wont be able to add any other PEQ..

If i was you i would be saving a little longer and looking for a XTA (these units also hold there money)

Or maybe look at a used BSS Soundweb 9088i (i think thats right) 4in 8out but these are PC controlled - Will do everything & anything you could every wish.

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Thanks for the info. The Behringer unit looks tempting for the price, expecially if one comes up secondhand.

What version of the software did the unit you use have? I noticed that there has been several software updates for the DCX 2496. It's currently on 1_17.

I'm wondering if the cpu issue you mention is anthing to do with older OS software or it's a permanent weak point?

What problems did you find with the limiters?

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www.richardpenrose.com

I was running 1.5 but the CPU issues has nothing to do with the software.... they just don't have tonnes of CPU power / memory to allow you to do EVERYTHING you MIGHT want to do

I found the limiters poor and if you wanted they can be easily beaten but if your using the kit and its not for dry hire i wouldn't to much.

At the time i loved it and couldn't fault the unit... it was only until i used a XTA that my eyes were opened.

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PA Hire Surrey
Lighting Hire Surrey

Hmm interesting!

To be honest I'm not sure if I want the limiters anyway.

If I bought the Behringer DCX 2496 I would gain a crossover but my EON 518S already has a crossover built into it?
I would also gain dynamic and parametric EQ's which looks handy but I'm wondering if just buying an EQ would give me the same results?

What benifits would I have buying the DCX 2496 over something like the Behringer ULTRACURVE PRO DEQ2496?

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www.richardpenrose.com

Hi, I was going to suggest going a little old school and get a second hand Klark Teknik 2 channel parametric for left and right outs? Dave...ooops ignore ...its 2U

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My head hurts!

Edited by turbodave (18/05/11 08:37 AM)

+1 on the TC Electronic

I've got a DEQ2496. Honestly I don't have much use for most of its features - the main thing it gets used for is the parametrics for notching out feedback. (I've never found that its automatic feedback detection/suppression worked, although to be fair I don't usually have long enough at soundcheck to do serious experimenting.) I know I should also use its limiters, but it's usually on the monitors and I don't tend to need them that loud.

It does what it does fairly well, but put across the entire mix going to a speaker I simply don't find most of it that useful, and the whole dial-and-button interface simply isn't as convenient for broad-brush EQing as a regular 31-slider model. I'm probably going to end up selling it and getting a better brand of 2x31 EQ instead.

Thanks for the replies.

Any other thoughts on the Behringer UltraCurve DEQ2496 vs UltraDrive DCX2496?

It would appear that the only different feature that the UltraDrive has is the crossovers!?
Would there be any point in getting this unit for the crossovers?
Would the crossovers in the UltraDrive be better than those used in the EON 518S sub?

The UltraCurve appears to offer way more features (apart from the crossovers) :-

Dual 31-band Graphic Equalizers (stereo linkable)

Dual 31-band Virtual Paragraphic Equalizers (stereo linkable)

Dual 10-band Parametric EQ’s per stereo side

Dynamically-activated EQ

Feedback Destroyer with Learning Mode

Stereo Imager

Compressor/Expander

Limiter

Digital Delay

RTA/SPL/FFT Analyzer with Auto EQ function

Is it possible to use an EQ, Feedback Destroyer and Limiter at the same time?

Hmmm??

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www.richardpenrose.com

I personally wouldn't bother with anything like the Ultracurve, not because it's a Behringer, but because I find those those sort of menu-driven units are too complicated and fiddly for live gigs (I used to have an Ultragraph on my rig -- hardly ever used it for that reason). But have a look through the manual -- Behringer usually provide these online -- to see if this is really so. (The manual *should* also tell how many features you can use at the same time, although Behringer used to be a bit cagey about this, leaving you to work it out for yourself.)

If feedback is a problem you could just get a dedicated Feedback Destroyer -- Behringers are set-and-forget, very easy. If EQ is a problem then get a graphic -- an old-style graphic is also very easy to use. Some of the digital-style ones are not too hard either.

Edited by Scramble (19/05/11 08:09 AM)

I'm not having any problem with feedback so a feedback destroyer is not necessary. I also have a crossover in my EON 518S so I don't need a crossover.

The different choices of EQ in the UltraCurve look very handy with Graphic, ParaGraphic, Parametric and Dynamic EQ's.

I'm also very intrigued in the room analyzer / correction feature. This looks like it could be very useful on occasions.
I remember a particular sound company that had something like this in their rack (could have been an Ultracurve) which they used and they found it to be extremely useful.

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www.richardpenrose.com

Quote dickiefunk:

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Would the crossovers in the UltraDrive be better than those used in the EON 518S sub?

The UltraCurve appears to offer way more features (apart from the crossovers)

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The cross-over in the 518s is not an active cross-over, it's a simply a pass-through filter, the two are worlds apart.

It's for the cross-over functionality that most people by the DXC2496, and speaking from my own perspective, I've never needed a feedback destroyer and I've always preferred a manual graphic EQ that I can adjust when required, the onboard examples are too fiddly and too time comsuming in a live environment.

Quote TheChorltonWheelie:

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... and speaking from my own perspective, I've never needed a feedback destroyer and I've always preferred a manual graphic EQ that I can adjust when required, the onboard examples are too fiddly and too time comsuming in a live environment.

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+ 1

I only tried the room analyser once. Then I found how much the room analyser gets thrown by conversation when the pink noise isn't loud enough, and how much people in the room appreciate the soundman hitting them with pink noise at moderate levels... Playing a few songs which you know cover the major bases is more public-friendly.

Quote TheChorltonWheelie:

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The cross-over in the 518s is not an active cross-over, it's a simply a pass-through filter, the two are worlds apart.

It's for the cross-over functionality that most people by the DXC2496, and speaking from my own perspective, I've never needed a feedback destroyer and I've always preferred a manual graphic EQ that I can adjust when required, the onboard examples are too fiddly and too time comsuming in a live environment.

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Thanks for this info. How does an active cross-over differ from a pass-through filter?
Would there my a noticable improvement in my FOH if I bought a proper crossover?
Should I be looking at a passive or active crossover for my rig?

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www.richardpenrose.com

I must admit I would buy a decent compressor. A dbx 160x not a new one (160A) but a nice older one. I would then stick this on a sub group or lead vocal and let it take some of the strain off the PA... I would then get a TC reverb , any of the cheap ones sound good, and stick the behringer on eBay ...
Cheap eq units such as ultra curves tend in my opinion to do more damage than good. Eons are essentially reasonable sounding and I have done lots of acoustic shows with name acts on them.
Good luck!

I'm actually looking to pick up a DBX 160XT compressor at some point in the future for my studio so I will check this out then.
I haven't bought the Behringer yet and may not.

Could anyone explain to me the differences between an active crossover and the frequency filter in my sub?

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www.richardpenrose.com

By now you're probably starting to realize that one spare rack case unit is not enough.

There's a lot of good advice here, but my priorities in your situation would be to sort out front of house management. To deal with different rooms you'll need some sort of graphic EQ and as someone has mentioned an analogue 'hands-on' is the most intuitive in a live situation. More complex processors give you more options, but this is also related to how much time you have to set up and tune your system when you arrive at gigs. Unfortunately I can't recommend Behringer stuff, half of mine died and the rest has long been sold. DBX is probably entry level for any serious work.

Bob

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www.bickerton.co.nz

Quote Bob Bickerton:

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By now you're probably starting to realize that one spare rack case unit is not enough.

There's a lot of good advice here, but my priorities in your situation would be to sort out front of house management. To deal with different rooms you'll need some sort of graphic EQ and as someone has mentioned an analogue 'hands-on' is the most intuitive in a live situation. More complex processors give you more options, but this is also related to how much time you have to set up and tune your system when you arrive at gigs. Unfortunately I can't recommend Behringer stuff, half of mine died and the rest has long been sold. DBX is probably entry level for any serious work.

Bob

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Hi Bob,

What DBX unit would you recommend?

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www.richardpenrose.com

I have a couple of Driverack 260s which are probably over the top for your application, plus for 'casual' live situations, I prefer the option of not digging into the menu structure of such devices!

Analogue wise I use a DBX 2231, which is nice enough and for monitors a DBX 215, which may be a bit too course for FOH duties.

I recently bought a second hand Rane DEQ60s, a digital GEQ with analogue controls, which I'm enjoying, but here's a thought. I also have a Samson D2500 which is a digital GEQ with analogue type controls, plus it has onboard filters and a limiter. Whilst Samson is not regarded to be a high quality brand, this unit has been well behaved, the only disadvantage being that it takes a second to process changes from the controls.

This ramble is probably not helping and none of the above will give you crossovers apart from the Driveracks.

Bob

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www.bickerton.co.nz

Quote Bob Bickerton:

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This ramble is probably not helping and none of the above will give you crossovers apart from the Driveracks.

Bob

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Thanks for these suggestions! I'll look into this.

Would I need crossovers for my system? I'm still unsure what the difference would be using dedicated crossovers instead if using the filters in my EON sub??

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www.richardpenrose.com

Can't answer the crossover question as I've always used dedicated units, so someone else will need to answer that one.

Again DBX do a basic analogue unit which is very much 'hands on', the DBX 223, of which the XLR version is probably more compatible with most systems, (I bought the TRS version because it was on special and regretted it ever since as a bunch of conversion patch leads now live permanently in the back of the case!).

Bob

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www.bickerton.co.nz

IMHO I'd go with either some sort of processing as others have said, or if money is tight, I remember a 1U 31-band stereo EQ, only used one 31-band EQ to control both channels...I think...I'll look for it...

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Ice Cold Entertainment DJ/Live Sound Services Ashland, KY, USA
Coming Soon: Presonus 32.4.2AI, QSC KW153/KW181 FOH, EV ELX Foldback

Quote dickiefunk:

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Thanks for this info. How does an active cross-over differ from a pass-through filter?
Would there my a noticable improvement in my FOH if I bought a proper crossover?
Should I be looking at a passive or active crossover for my rig?

---

The "crossover" in your subs is a "dumb" piece of circuitry. Designed by the speaker manufactures to split the incoming signal from your amplifier, into two parts. A low frequency part, and a mid/high frequency part. The low frequencies get fed into your sub, and the rest gets sent to the link thru speakon connector, and out into your tops.

This method is inefficient because lots of heat is generated in the crossover network. I have in my head 20% of the input power is lost in the crossover network.

But there are other, more practical/audible benefits which is why all pro level speakers save the weight the crossover adds and lets an active box do it.
- Internal crossovers are uneditable, sometimes you might find yourself wanting to change the crossover frequency and/or power ratios between the two outputs. This can't be done with an passive crossover without opening up the speaker and swapping in a new crossover board.
- Not perfect. Crossover networks can often lead to an uneven/peaky frequency response across the frequency range. This makes the speakers more susceptible to feedback.

An active crossover, such as the one in the DBX and others, is an active design. It takes a line level signal from your desk, and splits it. The crossover frequency is set, the steepness of the filter slope is set, and you can independantly change the levels of each frequency band. These plus Dynamic effects and PEQs can then be edited from a menu, saved and different set ups recalled depending on the rig or gig.

So an active crossover is often spec'd as 2 in 6 out. For a simple 2 way cross over, which is what you are trying to achieve, you would have your L+R outputs from your desk split into 4 outputs. (1) Mid-hi Left. (2)Lows Left. (3)Mid-high right. (4) Low Right.

These four outputs would then be sent into 4 amplifier channels. each amp channel powering a their respective speaker.

Chances are, to do this, the subs would have to be rewired to bypass the internal crossover. And if you wanted to really push the boat out. you could make it a 3 way crossover, and have 2 more amplifier channels and bypass the crossover in the tops, which splits between the 15" mid driver, with the tweeter.

So, to sum up. Active is more efficient, and more flexible and often sound better. But you have to have more amplifier channels to get it to work. Passive crossovers are simple and pretty fool proof.

HTH. J

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Macbook 2.0ghz 1Gig Ram 80gig HD
Alesis 14io, Behringer ADA8000, Logic Express 8

Quote dickiefunk:

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Thanks for the replies.

Any other thoughts on the Behringer UltraCurve DEQ2496 vs UltraDrive DCX2496?

It would appear that the only different feature that the UltraDrive has is the crossovers!?
Would there be any point in getting this unit for the crossovers?

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I'll second the DCX2496 (Ultradrive)

I stuff them on any amp I use or send out, and get round the Behringer gear "unease" by carrying spares (although the only one that ever misbehaved on me was a borrowed unit).

XTA gear is second to none, but I couldn't afford it on everything, I think I must have over a dozen of the DCX procesors. I won't put a monitor out without one, lets me HPF, EQ, delay and limit. I have multiples in amp racks, so that I can rig-up bi-amp mons with subs if needed, set up delay stacks, flip phase on mons behind subs...

>

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planet nine
lincoln, uk.

Quote James Perrett:

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Quote dickiefunk:

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What are peoples thoughts on something like the DBX DriveRack?

http://www.dbxpro.com/PA+/

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Whatever you do, don't buy an original Driverack PA if you value your speakers. The PA+ is fine but the DriveRack PX is probably the most appropriate for your setup.

Do you have monitors? How about a graphic eq for the monitors?

James.

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Qualification - if you're the kind of guy who wouldn't mind including a UPS (battery back up, also makes nice power conditioner I'm told) in you're rack then the original DRPA is fine. Unfortunately they forgot to include a gismo to prevent the big *pop* going to your amps in the event of a power failure to the DRPA.

I received similar well timed warnings when I asked for opinions on this and acted accordingly. No problems.

Personally, I'm waiting for a decent 1U coffee machine.

Well looks like I'm am gonna need some more rack spaces!!

I will be looking to pick up a speaker management system of some sorts and a few EQ's!

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www.richardpenrose.com

One other question.

The XTA SIDD doesn't have a crossover.

Would I benefit from having something with an active crossover built in???

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www.richardpenrose.com