I write and record my own music (anything that comes into my mind from pop/rock through grunge all the way over to ambient) on a Tascam 2488NEO multitracker with Neumann TLM103 Mic and a number of outboard pieces from makers such as Drawmer, Lexicon, TC Electronics, Roland, LA Audio - well, the list goes on. I'm nearly 50 and have been recording myself for many years now starting with an old National Panasonic cassette recorder, on to 4 track cassette based systems, then on to Minidisc based systems and then on to hard disk types. I must say that I've progressively found that each type of system sounded better and was, shall I say, less clunky than the one before it, and the Tascam 2488NEO is to me the absolute best I've ever used from ease of operation to sound quality to just getting things done. I was in a local shop recently and there were a couple of guys in there debating which was the best recording package - one had Logic on a Mac the other had Sonar on a PC. One of them asked me my opinion and I told them what I had. There was almost a "tumbleweed moment" as they struggled to comprehend what I'd just said. "Oh right - well that's only ever gonna be demo quality anyway - I meant a proper DAW!" said LogicMan sarcastically while SonarMan smirked to himself. I asked if either of them had released any albums and they both sort of spluttered "Well, we could do - our recordings are easily good enough for release!"
They were joined by a young co-worker who agreed with them that the DAW is king and multitrackers are only toys - not for "serious musicians!"
I was outnumbered and cheesed off by now so I left, but when I got home I "Fired up the NEO" in true Gene Hunt style and strapped on my P bass, set a drum loop going from my Roland R8, and in less than 15 minutes I had the basis of another song - I completed it later that evening, leaving it as an instrumental, and played it to my Brother who called round - he thought it was great. Now what do those guys hear that I don't - I'm not saying I hear Logic or Sonar tracks as worse - I just don't hear them as any better - and believe me I've listened - and listened. I dipped my toe in the DAW world a while back but I just seemed to faff with things and not complete them. With a multitracker I just work.
So, do my ears need training and if so how?
Any opinions would be welcome.

I would relax, everyone has a different way of working.

Logic or Sonar have little to do with what audio sounds like, the ADDA getting in and out does.

DAW's are powerful, immensely flexible and have the respect of almost everyone, it is difficult to make the case operationally for a hardware recorder these days when the recording, mixing workflow is nailed with most DAW's. In saying this, it does not instantly mean you are now a second class citizen. I still own an Alesis HD24XR. I defy ANY daw to 1)Be as reliable in a live situation 2)Sound as good with 24 I/O of exemplary ADDA this side of £6,000.00

If it works for you, it works, no need to feel outdone

cheers

SafeandSound Mastering

--------------------
Mastering online mastering

Rule 1, always be wary of musical 'facts' peddled by guys working in a music shop.

A talented producer/engineer can make a decent sounding recording on any platform given the right space. A muppet can make a shite recording on the best gear.

Good gear always helps, a decent sounding space is essential, but most important to the sound of a recording is the skills/experience of the engineer IMHO.

If they are so 'professional' why aren't they out there doing it?

If your happy with how you do it and what it sounds like, wheres the issue....

I agree with Safeandsound and would go slightly further and say that the smartarse response you got says more about them than you. In fact, it shows that they know very little really...

Your gear is perfectly respectable and used correctly - which I'm sure you are - will give very acceptable results.

Making and recording music is primarily about producing the right sounds and knowing how to capture them; then mixing and manipulating them to get the final sound you want. Gear does nothing more than facilitate the process...

... but Golden Ears is something else entirely... nothing to do with gear... all about being able to listen inside a mix and hear those things that others can't. Experience, experience, experience. (I have bronze ears with occasional forays to silver... )

Yup - you stick to your guns. Fek 'em! If you're making kick ass tunes on ANY set up - then that's alright by me.....

gear snobbery happens.... sometimes to the best of us... but generally most fervently by the wannabes.

sod em.... make great music that sounds good to you.... that's what it's about really....

Seem to remember they still managed to come up with a few good tunes in the old days, before them new-fangled DAWs.

They sound like rather spiteful kids to me - just carry on doing what you enjoy, you're not doing it for their benefit after all.

--------------------
It wasn't me!
(Well, actually, it probably was)

Quote suedehead:

---

There was almost a "tumbleweed moment" as they struggled to comprehend what I'd just said. "Oh right - well that's only ever gonna be demo quality anyway - I meant a proper DAW!" said LogicMan sarcastically while SonarMan smirked to himself. I asked if either of them had released any albums and they both sort of spluttered "Well, we could do - our recordings are easily good enough for release!"
They were joined by a young co-worker who agreed with them that the DAW is king and multitrackers are only toys - not for "serious musicians!"

---

And that, dear friends, is why the hardware recorder market died on its arse.

Fella walks into a shop to buy a hardware recorder...

"You want to to buy WHAT?!! Are you mad?! Hey guys - this deluded moron wants to buy a hardware recorder. Nah mate ... what you want is the new Logibase 12.5...."

Fella walks out of the shop with a bunch of boxes full of DVDs and a month of set up woes ahead as he tries to sort it out before realising he needs a more powerful computer.

Shame really - he could have plugged in a few things and been recording the same day!

Workflow? Some hardware recorders actually have a more tactile and intuitive 'workflow' (God, I hate that overused word) as anyone who's used an Akai DPS24 will tell you.

They work the same as 'puter-based DAWs (0s and 1s 'recorded' to a disk) and sound the same, give or take. Some will even argue they sound better because the audio components are chosen specifically for the task rather than being a generic audio I/O for a box designed for email and spreadsheets!

So they can't run plugins. Good!! A lot of people overuse them anyway!

Pay no attention to those morons in the shop, Mr Suedehead - what you experienced was some willy waving by ignorant simpletons!

I am reminded of this 'Not the nine-o-clock-news' sketch

--------------------
Website / Music Lab Machines / Blog

Quote idris y draig:

---

gear snobbery happens.... sometimes to the best of us... but generally most fervently by the wannabes.

sod em.... make great music that sounds good to you.... that's what it's about really....

---

...is about the top and bottom of it.

To steal a quote from one of the members of XTC (he was talking about extended guitar solos) "it's quasi-musical willy showing".

My setup is modest but appropriate to my plan, such as it is. I'm personally aware of at least two people who are proud owners of recording systems that easily put mine to shame and have never finished a song, let alone an extended project. For them it's not about the music but fair play to them, I'll buy some kit off them when they get a girlfriend.

--------------------
Ohm's Law states, "Your PA isn't as powerful as you think it is".

if, not when,.


(i would argue the case for extended guitar solos.... much like, say a violin concerto. )

1) Get a great musician, with a great instrument, who's practiced the music.
2) Find a great sounding room.
3) Put a decent mic(s) in the right place.
4) Connect it to something that will record the sound.
5) Hit record.

Great sounding recording done...

--------------------
www.exaviormusic.com
www.manninmusic.com Music Teacher, Isle of Man

Quote SafeandSound123:

---

I still own an Alesis HD24XR. I defy ANY daw to... Sound as good with 24 I/O of exemplary ADDA this side of £6,000.00

---

While I agree wholeheartedly with the sentiments expressed in your post, it's actually possible to use the HD24XR as a rack of converters to interface with a DAW with digital IO. That needn't cost £6k.

The Beatles recorded all their albums on Logic, I believe, and the Stones on Sonar.

Quote Scramble:

---

The Beatles recorded all their albums on Logic, I believe, and the Stones on Sonar.

---

Of course they did, but did you know that Queen had to use both for Bohemian Rhapsody?

--------------------
It wasn't me!
(Well, actually, it probably was)

actually, that was Nuendo.

The people in front of the mic and the guy behind the kit count for far more than the kit itself. It was true in the days of Fred Gaisberg and it will always be true as long as recording is about the music.

Quote Ted Kendall:

---

The people in front of the mic and the guy behind the kit count for far more than the kit itself. It was true in the days of Fred Gaisberg and it will always be true as long as recording is about the music.

---

Ted tells it like it is.

--------------------
I'm All Ears.

I wonder what age were the guys in the shop ?

Is their ignorance perhaps another consequence of misleading a generation of teenagers into believing that music is really about 'music technology' ?

Quote ...:

---

actually, that was Nuendo.

---

Don't you mean Innuendo?

I use a small network of PCs and run Cubase, but I'm happy as a pig in plop, because I've just been given one of these - and am seriously looking forward to getting recording on it...

Portastudio

I used to love my old 244 back in the day, and the prospect of dealing with the same limitations (but with better mics...) is something I find genuinely exciting!

Sid Sonar and Mr Logic were clearly, and not to put too fine a point on it, knobbers. I have a friend who, rather sniffily, asked me what the converters were like in my Tascam FW1082. I replied that they were good enough for me and got on with the recording I was doing - he's still sitting round with an unused system, undecided about what interface/AD-DA gubbins he should buy while I've finished my first solo LP, have finished a friend's (which is going for mastering soon), and embarking on a rather massive project of remastering my old 244 tapes.

At the end of the day, if it works for you, it works. Simple as that. Just enjoy your recording while they snipe and do nowt!

--------------------
"We knocked on the doors of Hell's darker chambers..." But no-one answered, so we went to the pub instead.

Edited by Phil Reynolds (27/05/11 08:24 AM)

Quote hollowsun:

---

Pay no attention to those morons in the shop, Mr Suedehead - what you experienced was some willy waving by ignorant simpletons!

I am reminded of this 'Not the nine-o-clock-news' sketch

---

Oh god that was funny, thanks for that it's started my day off just right.


& yeah, you just keep on keepin' on, fek em' indeed, I'm in exactly the same boat as you but went the DAW route - using it essentially as a fancy four track - with more tracks. Works for me.

--------------------
"The tech gets better, the user error remains the same.." Roberts Plant

Quote suedehead:

---

...a couple of guys in there debating which was the best recording package - one had Logic on a Mac the other had Sonar on a PC. One of them asked me my opinion and I told them what I had. There was almost a "tumbleweed moment" as they struggled to comprehend what I'd just said. "Oh right - well that's only ever gonna be demo quality anyway - I meant a proper DAW!" said LogicMan sarcastically while SonarMan smirked to himself.

---

The computer DAW (of whatever flavour) provides much more flexibility than a hardware recorder, obviously, but that's it's only advantage. And if you don't require that flexibility then it's not an advantage.

Some hardware recorders use proprietary data reduction schemes which should be avoided if your goal is high quality -- but most also have a linear PCM format in there somewhere to address that concern.

And as far as converters go, modern decent hardware recorders can easily match any DAW systems because they use much the same converter technology as computer interfaces anyway.

For many, the much faster start-up time, the ease of use and the convenience of hardware recorders far outweighs the greater flexibility of the DAW. Indeed, I know of several home recordists who can record and mix an entire track in the time it takes some DAW users to choose which plug-ins to use!

Some people like to record music, some like to play with the toys..... DAWs have their uses, but so to to serious hardware recorders and anyone who can't see that is deluding themselves.

Hugh

--------------------
Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Quote suedehead:

---

I write and record my own music (anything that comes into my mind from pop/rock through grunge all the way over to ambient) on a Tascam 2488NEO multitracker with Neumann TLM103 Mic and a number of outboard pieces from makers such as Drawmer, Lexicon, TC Electronics, Roland, LA Audio - well, the list goes on. I'm nearly 50 and have been recording myself for many years now starting with an old National Panasonic cassette recorder, on to 4 track cassette based systems, then on to Minidisc based systems and then on to hard disk types. I must say that I've progressively found that each type of system sounded better and was, shall I say, less clunky than the one before it, and the Tascam 2488NEO is to me the absolute best I've ever used from ease of operation to sound quality to just getting things done. I was in a local shop recently and there were a couple of guys in there debating which was the best recording package - one had Logic on a Mac the other had Sonar on a PC. One of them asked me my opinion and I told them what I had. There was almost a "tumbleweed moment" as they struggled to comprehend what I'd just said. "Oh right - well that's only ever gonna be demo quality anyway - I meant a proper DAW!" said LogicMan sarcastically while SonarMan smirked to himself. I asked if either of them had released any albums and they both sort of spluttered "Well, we could do - our recordings are easily good enough for release!"
They were joined by a young co-worker who agreed with them that the DAW is king and multitrackers are only toys - not for "serious musicians!"
I was outnumbered and cheesed off by now so I left, but when I got home I "Fired up the NEO" in true Gene Hunt style and strapped on my P bass, set a drum loop going from my Roland R8, and in less than 15 minutes I had the basis of another song - I completed it later that evening, leaving it as an instrumental, and played it to my Brother who called round - he thought it was great. Now what do those guys hear that I don't - I'm not saying I hear Logic or Sonar tracks as worse - I just don't hear them as any better - and believe me I've listened - and listened. I dipped my toe in the DAW world a while back but I just seemed to faff with things and not complete them. With a multitracker I just work.
So, do my ears need training and if so how?
Any opinions would be welcome.

---

The most important thing is the music.

The rest are just tools to help you capture the magic.

Just like a professional photographer can take a wonderful photograph with the cheapest and simplest camera around (or with a phone camera, even) and the average person will only get average results using the best camera on the market - in the same way someone who knows what he is doing will produce excellent results on simple equipment and someone who doesn't will produce rubbish with the best equipment.

And - weren't there several successful releases in the old days made with cassette Portastudios?

So - don't be worried - just enjoy, and create great music.

After all, that's what it's all about.



--------------------
John - Sound-Link ProAudio
President - Federation Internationale des Chasseurs de Sons

Quote John Willett:

---

And - weren't there several successful releases in the old days made with cassette Portastudios?

---

Aye. believe some unknown called Bruce Spring...something had a fair bit of success going down that route!

--------------------
"We knocked on the doors of Hell's darker chambers..." But no-one answered, so we went to the pub instead.

Pretty sure Jurassic 5 record everything to a Roland multitracker?

It's Hip-Hop, so a different workflow, but it still sounds great...

Quote John Willett:

---

And - weren't there several successful releases in the old days made with cassette Portastudios?

---

I worked with a band back in the day that did amazing things with a Portastudio. Then they'd bring it to my place where it was dubbed over onto my 8-track and synths and proper vocals, etc., added.

They gigged incessantly and gained a following and had record company interest. This was back in the day when an interested company would put you in a studio for a day or two, see how it worked out. There we were in a swish London studio with a top engineer and all the best toys of the day...

Could we recreate the sound/feel/vibe/character of those demos? Not a chance...

So my 8-track version was dubbed over to their 24-track and we worked on that...

Only to discover that there wasn't much to do on it other than re-record the vocals in a proper room with a better mic (instead of an SM57 in the front room!).

I also worked with a 'name' artist at his home recording onto his Akai MG1214 12-track (which for those unfamiliar was a 12-track 'portastudio' using proprietary VHS-like cassettes as the recording format). Same kind of thing - couldn't reproduce in the studio what we'd put together at home so we hired in the rack version of the MG1214 (with individual outs) and dubbed all the 'demos' over to the 24-track. These were subsequently released as a best selling album with some high charting singles.

What you record ONTO is irrelevant - WHAT you record is all that matters and however much you agonise over which I/O to get, what monitors to buy, how to treat your room, which mic, which cable, which sample rate/bit depth, etc., whilst these will help somewhat with fidelity (if you know what you're doing), it's all arse wash if the 'content' you're recording is garbage.

--------------------
Website / Music Lab Machines / Blog

There are also a fair amount of plug-ins to make our DAWs sound like those old style recorders.... is that an example of irony?

Although if someone took my DAW away and gave me back my Portastudio 244 (from 1985ish?), I would not be happy!

--------------------
Cubase, guitars.

Quote suedehead:

---

I write and record my own music (anything that comes into my mind from pop/rock through grunge all the way over to ambient) on a Tascam 2488NEO multitracker with Neumann TLM103 Mic and a number of outboard pieces from makers such as Drawmer, Lexicon, TC Electronics, Roland, LA Audio - well, the list goes on. I'm nearly 50 and have been recording myself for many years now starting with an old National Panasonic cassette recorder, on to 4 track cassette based systems, then on to Minidisc based systems and then on to hard disk types. I must say that I've progressively found that each type of system sounded better and was, shall I say, less clunky than the one before it, and the Tascam 2488NEO is to me the absolute best I've ever used from ease of operation to sound quality to just getting things done. I was in a local shop recently and there were a couple of guys in there debating which was the best recording package - one had Logic on a Mac the other had Sonar on a PC. One of them asked me my opinion and I told them what I had. There was almost a "tumbleweed moment" as they struggled to comprehend what I'd just said. "Oh right - well that's only ever gonna be demo quality anyway - I meant a proper DAW!" said LogicMan sarcastically while SonarMan smirked to himself. I asked if either of them had released any albums and they both sort of spluttered "Well, we could do - our recordings are easily good enough for release!"
They were joined by a young co-worker who agreed with them that the DAW is king and multitrackers are only toys - not for "serious musicians!"
I was outnumbered and cheesed off by now so I left, but when I got home I "Fired up the NEO" in true Gene Hunt style and strapped on my P bass, set a drum loop going from my Roland R8, and in less than 15 minutes I had the basis of another song - I completed it later that evening, leaving it as an instrumental, and played it to my Brother who called round - he thought it was great. Now what do those guys hear that I don't - I'm not saying I hear Logic or Sonar tracks as worse - I just don't hear them as any better - and believe me I've listened - and listened. I dipped my toe in the DAW world a while back but I just seemed to faff with things and not complete them. With a multitracker I just work.
So, do my ears need training and if so how?
Any opinions would be welcome.

---

Before I worked for TASCAM I was a bit ignorant to hardware based recorders. The reason being is because I came from a background of using Cubase and regularly mucked about with Logic and Ableton (which was new on the scene about 5 years ago). Over time I learned that many professional Musicians were still using multi-track recorders because they felt that sitting in front of a screen distracted their imagination. I lost count of the number of people that were overly impressed with the results on the 24 track, and these were people that owned large pro tools based systems as well. I still use logic but would in no way slag off a standalone solution as I have heard some of the results and you would be hard to find fault with them. Gear snobbery and lack of knowledge is a common thing in our industry. Having said that there is an awful lot of equipment available these days and realistically a person in a shop is probably one of the last people you should be asking about it. If your reading this now then you already have the biggest resource of information to look into things and get opinions. You can then get second, third and fourth opinions from others.

cheers

Gary

i know of several pro engineers with at least one hardware based recording and mixing device in their arsenal.... The 24 track Akai gets a fair bit of praise for sounding good, being easy to hook up to , and handy to be able to track a live performance, and mix live to stereo at the same time, with a minimal footprint, and excellent reliability....


i know for a fact that good broadcast quality classical has been done on such things... .... nuff said.


(i've also got mates who are still madly in love with their AW1644 (? right number i think) hardware systems.... one even has 2 of them.... )


i'd kind of like to go to this shop, and sucker them into a similar debate... then blow their tiny little minds...

twats.

Bruce Springsteen's Nebraska album was enterily recorded on one of the first Tascam 4 track porta-studios

Quote vinyl_junkie:

---

Bruce Springsteen's Nebraska album was enterily recorded on one of the first Tascam 4 track porta-studios

---

Well...

It was and the background to it is very interesting reading.

--------------------
Website / Music Lab Machines / Blog

Quote hollowsun:

---

Quote vinyl_junkie:

---

Bruce Springsteen's Nebraska album was enterily recorded on one of the first Tascam 4 track porta-studios

---

Well...

It was and the background to it is very interesting reading.

---

Wow!
What a fascinating story! There's hope for us all then

Now, about that wire recorder in the attic

--------------------
It wasn't me!
(Well, actually, it probably was)

..sure but if he had the whole E-street band around..?? the mixing tool serves to do more than just 'sound good'.. and DAW's obviously bring more to the party than the stingy neighbors..

--------------------
C.LYDE
http://soundcloud.com/c-lyde

Quote ...:

---

gear snobbery happens.... sometimes to the best of us... but generally most fervently by the wannabes.

sod em.... make great music that sounds good to you.... that's what it's about really....

---

The guys in the shop want to sell stuff. That's what they're paid to do.

If they can make a sale by persuading a customer that he needs to "upgrade" to a DAW then fine.

Or the customer is happy with what he has and doesn't bite, fine.

Personally, I've recorded on 4 track cassette based "portastudios", 8, 16 & 24 track analogue tape, various hard disk recorders and finally DAWs for the last few years.

DAWs don't have the restrictions of other formats and will adapt easily to your prefered workflow. There's nothing better IMO.

But a good friend of mine is still producing great stuff on his ancient Ampeg 1" 8 track.

--------------------
"Qui habet aures audiendi audiat"

Quote Folderol:

---

Quote hollowsun:

---

Quote vinyl_junkie:

---

Bruce Springsteen's Nebraska album was enterily recorded on one of the first Tascam 4 track porta-studios

---

Well...

It was and the background to it is very interesting reading.

---

Wow!
What a fascinating story! There's hope for us all then

---

Again, the kit doesn't matter! In this example, it's being Bruce Springsteen that matters.

--------------------
"Qui habet aures audiendi audiat"

What a lovely thread.

--------------------
http://soundcloud.com/anthony-wall/sets/audio-reel
http://songsforvoiceandpiano.com/

Quote jaminem:

---

Rule 1, always be wary of musical 'facts' peddled by guys working in a music shop.

---

There are 3 easy steps to describe this situation:

1. People walk into a music shop and moan that a Bob Ludwig-esque expert isn't there to ask for sales/technical advice on mastering equipment.
2. People walk into a music shop and moan that they can get the mastering equipment in point 1 for £10 less online, and proceed to purchase it online.
3. Bob Ludwig doesn't work in that store because of point 2.

Quote vinyl_junkie:

---

Bruce Springsteen's Nebraska album was enterily recorded on one of the first Tascam 4 track porta-studios

---

Yeah, and Phileas Fogg navigated the world in a fcuking balloon, but I think I'll stick with this new-fangled aeroplane thing!

Quote hollowsun:

---

And that, dear friends, is why the hardware recorder market died on its arse.

---

The SSD devices are still going strong, indeed I've gone from Ableton to a Zoom R16 for the very reasons you mentioned: for doing the same thing repeatedly, without fuss or complication, or the need to have a software engineering degree, you can beat the good old multitrack (albeit SSD :-)).