I'm slightly reluctant to weigh in on this for various reasons. But anyway...

IN MY OPINION

I totally agree with Bob. Simulated guitar sounds are terrible to mix. They just wont 'come forward' properly. It's as if they dont move the cone as much as a speaker captured with a mic. And for me there's the rub. It's not the simulation of the amp that's so wrong (although I do believe a great real amp is better than a great simulated one). Because if you run simulated sounds at high level into a real cab you can get sounds that work properly. OK they might not be quite what you expect...They might in some cases be better but the component we dont yet simulate properly is the speaker, and to be more specific the speaker distortion. The difference is that with the real speaker, as it distorts, in addition to distortion we get a limiting. And the charachter of this limiting is that it seems to allow highs, mids and lows of the sound to push up against the end stops. To align. To glue toghether.

I've recently been playing around with running the unsimulated output of a dummy load connected to a valve head into speaker impulse responses. Invariably my first reaction is 'wow this sounds good, It's so cool that we can do this'. And the second I then switch out the real cab I feel a wave of disappointment as I realise how much better it is. Every time. I believe the problem is probably to do with the fact that the sine sweep just cant make the speaker extrude in the right way.

Of course this is a bugger, because the one thing a lot of us want to do a lot of the time is get a really great 'silent' guitar sound. My experience of this is that at the moment at least, you can't.

But I do believe we will see this as and when people turn increasingly clever technology at the problem of speaker simulation rather than amp simulation. I was rather hoping Anamod might have a crack at it. I did email them about it.

NB. I'm not saying that people don't use these sounds on records. Fake amp to real speaker gets used a lot and has done since the 80's. Fake amp with simulated speaker gets used too. But I agree with Narcoman...These sounds are not great. I don't believe they're on Slash's record, put it that way.

J

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www.jackruston.com

the other thing that no modelling device can replicate , is the acoustic linkage between a real amp/cab and the instrument itself... it's one reason why i always ALWAYS play in the room with the amp..... (obviously with ear defenders, over in ear monitors, or high isolation cans of some sort,.... ) (or failing that, run the main monitoring system real hard in the control room, but even that is just not the same.... )



that connection between the speaker and the instrument body&strings affects not just the tone, but the way you play,..... no pod, or v-amp, or motherload system does anything to replicate it, nor could they..... it's a very directly , fundamentally physical thing.... is different for every guitar, and varies depending on position relative to the speaker and the room you're in.... that's why some "virtuoso" type people spend time in sound checks , looking for the sweet spots on the stage, and marking them.... so they can get that linkage to work with them in their performance.... and the same applies to studio playing...... or it should at any rate.....



this may not necessarily relate to things being "unmixable" but it definitely does relate to the acquisition a "GREAT" recording of a performance, and indeed , simply quality the performance itself...

Quote Jack Ruston:

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I totally agree with Bob. Simulated guitar sounds are terrible to mix.

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You're not agreeing with Bob though, Bob's comments were made 10 years ago, on 1st generation modelling hardware, so you're comparing apples with oranges.

There are plenty of commercial releases that show that these guitar plug-ins work, and do sound good, as well as the plethora of YouTube demos by both professionals and home enthusiasts alike, so the notion that they're simply "usable" is, quite frankly, laughable. For the record, I have Twin, a Bassman and an Orange Thunderverb amongst other amps, so I know what a great sound is, and, I'm not biased towards plug-ins either.

Quote Jack Ruston:

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I don't believe they're on Slash's record, put it that way.

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There we have it.

Modelling is only "usable" at best, and Brendan's a liar; I think we can lock this topic now that we've sorted all that out.

my my, aren't we a grumpy wheelie

FWIW, i think Jack's personal opinions are at least worth listening to....

and usually bang on the money..... and his work load and client base bear out the results.

i don't ALWAYS agree with him, but it's rare, and usually down to a personal preference choice rather than an absolute....

Look, I put 'IN MY OPINION' in caps for a reason. This is a controversial issue which is why I was reluctant to get involved. I fully respect your experience with this technology. For what I do, I don't prefer it. You may find that for what you do it's every bit as good. I would never claim that you're wrong. Its a matter of subjective opinion. Yours is every bit as valid as mine and I'm not trying to change anyone's mind.

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www.jackruston.com

Quote TheChorltonWheelie:

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There are plenty of commercial releases that show that these guitar plug-ins work, and do sound good, as well as the plethora of YouTube demos by both professionals and home enthusiasts alike, so the notion that they're simply "usable" is, quite frankly, laughable. For the record, I have Twin, a Bassman and an Orange Thunderverb amongst other amps, so I know what a great sound is, and, I'm not biased towards plug-ins either.

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Again - the thread mentioned great. All sims miss

1. being in a room - even when they have it it's a convolution and that's not the same. I move my amps around the room to make them sound different - yes even spot mic'ing.
2. different speaker voicing - Of the many amps I have each speaker sounds different. Plugins "model" a handful
3. different mics - let's not get started on mic modelling!
4. how you mic it. I do all kinds of cool stuff to get QOTSA or Johnny Cash tones! None of it doable in a sim

They are merely "usable". Nothing laughable about it. Guitar Rig is my pet hate - nothing, I mean nothing, comes out of that without a fekking horrible 3k hype. Nasty.

We're talking about GREAT guitar sound here - things that make your jaw drop..... but as Jack says it is subjective. No sims here. That simple.

Quote TheChorltonWheelie:

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Quote narcoman:

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As I say, useable and good. But never great.

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Remind me to tell Brendan O'Brien that his guitar sounds are merely "useable", I'm sure the Boss and Slash will drop him like a hot potato when they read your critique.

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Well I've sold more product than him. ..... although not rock records

and _ahem - a response to your ACDC ITB 'ness

www.soundonsound.com/sos/jan09/articles/itfraser.htm


So. Not only were those tones from a classic mic' up job, I still don't like em!!! . Cream on your pie?

Dear loves,

I've mixed some of the biggest soundtracks around and in that role I've been sent all manner of stuff. Some of it sounds an utter disgrace when it gets here - badly set up samples and the like. Now - using a bit of turd polishing and hard work I make some of these sonic disasters (but often compositional wonders) sound a hell of lot more "it" than they did when they arrived. That goes for "guitar rigs" and "amp farms" too. They're hard work to make them shine - especially if the recording team have gone to the bother of recoding a great drum sound fer real.....

If the sessions allow I've taken the speaker sims off and played them out through amps in a room (re-amping baby, re-amping).

When guitars get sent from decent players, with decent recordists and production crew in charge - they're just "push the faders up an the records there". Same with real drums against BFD . Same with a real hammond versus a Korg. You cut the corners early on - you make my life harder and I charge you more.

As Jack says - it's obviously subjective and this is MY opinion. My opinion is the only one I have and it's the one that earns me money.


Here's a little reality trip : I endorse a few products out there, most interestingly a well known brand of pretty decent plugins. I go on about how they're the bees knees in my promo duties. Now - here is the rub. I don't actually use them that much. Why? Cuz I've access to better most often. "But Narco - you git, why endorse it then?".

"Because, in the sad corporate world we live in", replied a now very uncomfortable Narco, "it gets my name into the ears of many of those decision makers out there in "we need our stuff mixing" land.

Or do you think CLA REALLY thinks the Waves plugins are awesome? .... welcome to the world of commerce......

Quote narcoman:

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and _ahem - a response to your ACDC ITB 'ness

<a href="/sos/jan09/articles/itfraser.htm" target="_blank">www.soundonsound.com/sos/jan09/articles/itfraser.htm</a>


So. Not only were those tones from a classic mic' up job, I still don't like em!!! . Cream on your pie?

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No, not at all, and I think you'll find that's wrong; the reason I know modelling was used is quite simple, Angus told me. I say he told me, he told anyone that has seen the Live @ River Plates DVD.

I'd also ask some questions regarding "great guitar sounds":

1. It's purely personal, one mans water etc. A great sound to me is Nile Rodgers 70's Chic recordings, but I'd say that it you were to ask 10 respected guitarists to quantify a "great sound" they'd all say something different.
2. The production of modern music is as much part of the trend as the musicality itself, and therefore who exactly is listening out for these "great guitar sounds".

As an example, I can still listen to the 20 year old "The Extremist" and admire the "great guitar sound", in the same way that I can listen to the recent Stones record and deteste their production values.

Quote TheChorltonWheelie:

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I'd also ask some questions regarding "great guitar sounds":

1. It's purely personal, one mans water etc. A great sound to me is Nile Rodgers 70's Chic recordings, but I'd say that it you were to ask 10 respected guitarists to quantify a "great sound" they'd all say something different.
2. The production of modern music is as much part of the trend as the musicality itself, and therefore who exactly is listening out for these "great guitar sounds".

As an example, I can still listen to the 20 year old "The Extremist" and admire the "great guitar sound", in the same way that I can listen to the recent Stones record and deteste their production values.

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Totally right on!!!

Quote TheChorltonWheelie:

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Quote narcoman:

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and _ahem - a response to your ACDC ITB 'ness

<a href="/sos/jan09/articles/itfraser.htm" target="_blank">www.soundonsound.com/sos/jan09/articles/itfraser.htm</a>


So. Not only were those tones from a classic mic' up job, I still don't like em!!! . Cream on your pie?

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No, not at all, and I think you'll find that's wrong; the reason I know modelling was used is quite simple, Angus told me. I say he told me, he told anyone that has seen the Live @ River Plates DVD.

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not seen it. Bu tI'll check it.... sure he wasn't taking the piss?

Quote narcoman:

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not seen it. Bu tI'll check it.... sure he wasn't taking the piss?

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Granted, it's widely accepted that Angus isn't playing with a full set of marbles these days, Malcolm even less so.......

Maybe they reamped Angus' stuff after he passed out?

I've done some records where we kept everything via DI while the musician was there and went nuts afterwards. Right now I am working on a commmercial CD and all the lead guitars are actually ending up on sims and they sound great, but again we're talking that they have to cut over several layers of live miked guitars.

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www.descentintomadness.com

i have to add to my earlier reply on this topic (in which i defended direct recording of FX units, though not necessarily amp sims, which i don't really use). having been watching a bunch of YouTube vids of 60s and 70s rock bands like Humble Pie, Free, and Budgie, if that's the guitar sound you're after, there really is no substitute for playing a good guitar in front of loud amp. the resonance and re-inforcement of the sustain between the amp and the guitar strings is a massive effect that i doubt any IIR/FIR digital filter can capture, especially since it's so dependent on the particular guitarist's technique and preferences. you can use your fretting fingers like individual envelope generators (synth-speak, for all our guitar-only members) and watching masters like paul kossoff, steve marriot, and the guy from budgie is just inspiring. not enough to go buy a big stack and blow my hearing out but it's more tempting now than it was before. fortunately for me (and my neighbors and the local police) i don't really play that kind of guitar, but man i love the sound!

cheers,

d

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"Patsy had the drug tolerance of Keith Richards and the moral rectitude of Brian Jones." - Dr. Walter Bishop, "Fringe"