I hope this post makes sense, and I don't want to get into the endless posts online about Analog vs Digital debate

Thing is, like most of us, I have a Mac and PC with many VST's running in Ableton etc and coming from 20 years ago with an Akai and Atari, the whole laptop set up of today is very convenient..

I used an Akai S3000 back in the day for everything most of the way through the 90's and got on well with it, but as it hardly gets used anymore its time to go to de-clutter as I haven't the room. Firing it up again for one last time, I realised even the 16-bit sound, had a bit of character (not as much as the 12-bit 950 mind) and quite liked the snappyness for dance drums and loops, something which i haven't really heard much since we all went to DAW's and 24-bit.

I think it had a definite sound, but the tiny screen and endless button pushing isn't as appealing in this day and age, and even if you wanted the old 'Akai" way of tuning loops manually, my Ableton Sampler can do the same thing..

So any ideas on a box (pre-amp? compressor?) on the output of my DAW that would colour the sound slightly to get a hardware sound to get the best of both worlds?

The ease of use of big screens, large editing is brilliant today, but i still find it harder to mix in a DAW with lots of ITB levels to get right than on an Akai pumping through a desk. I did think of keeping the Akai to justify as a sound module for some pads with FX to record into the DAW, but the sound on "instruments' is a bit thin and can be done 10x better with VST's like Nexus..

Does anyone else notice the sound between DAW and Hardware, but would like to have the best of both worlds?

I always wanted digital sampling/recording to give me back *exactly* what I put in and these days that’s pretty much achieved. One happy camper here! There’s no lack of bite/snap/excitement in any of my recordings as long as the bite/snap/excitement is there in the source – I certainly don’t need an old sampler to find these qualities. I’ll often throw sounds through analogue gear to find additional character, but I very much want my recording chain to capture that just as it is and not add its own salt and pepper.

I don’t believe in the existence of one all-encompassing ‘hardware sound’. Adding a box to your mix buss might find you something you like, but I suspect this amounts to that grail-like search for the magic ‘make it all better’ box - which I also don't believe in. For me I like to add some valve EQ and some hardware compression over the mix buss when called for – though certainly not all the time. A better option might be to hunt down a few devices to chain into individual tracks and pick up their traits to add them to the mix. For me that amounts to a collection of toys and devices that might be shunned by many, including bench test amps, guitar pedals, disembodied speakers, old cassette recorders, guitar practice amps, children’s toys and unloved microphones of many descriptions. A lot of these trinkets can typically be picked up for pennies, but they can give you a sound that plug-ins can’t, since they introduce the ‘random’ element. An album for which I received a recording award featured a snare that I had passed through a torn speaker placed at the end of medical centre corridor!

If you really do feel that an old 12/16-bit sampler gives you something you can’t get elsewhere, then for the amount of space it would take up, and the minimal outlay involved, I’d grab one.

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An Eagle for an Emperor, A Kestrel for a Knave.

For me it's not really about the sound but the work flow of working with a hardware sampler that I like hence why I use one, never thought the sound of the 3000's as anything great compared to other Akai's or manufacturers but hey I got one and it's my main workhorse lol

The 3000/3200's all could take hard drives or record on to zip and act as hard disk recorders, why not just bounce down your complete tracks into the sampler via the analogue inputs then transfer them back to your DAW via the digital outs. That way you get "That" sound you like without the actual pain in the bum of properly using the sampler right?

Edited by vinyl_junkie (21/06/11 09:48 AM)

Quote vinyl_junkie:

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why not just bounce down your complete tracks into the sampler via the analogue inputs then transfer them back to your DAW via the digital outs. That way you get "That" sound you like without the actual pain in the bum of properly using the sampler right?

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Thanks for your suggestions! So you mean record in the 2-track final master from the DAW into the sampler and back out?

I suppose if you were clever, you could use the Akai as an effect and create and in/out loop and with something like Ableton External Effect, you could add to a track or master channel, the Akai sound (it running through the sampler and back out) as an effect?

The only problem with this though, is that I don't think the sound 'happens' until you hit record on the sampler and its properly 'sampling' - i know this happens with the 10Khz setting whenever i've tried it - i has to be 'recording' but if i whacked the sample time right up (32mb here) that would do the trick?

Secondly, I suppose you could do this as an effect with an old Stereo Hi-fi for some grit? - I just found my old hifi tape deck, which should have some grit to it from the around 1992 and it has an Optical Digital output on the back too!!

The 3200XL can be run as a FX device on a send/return bus, you could just by-pass the FX thus only using it's AD/DA.

Ram won't matter if all you want to do is record a final 2 track mix to it as it can record direct to zip or HDD either at 20k or 10k

Record analogue into the sampler and stick it back in to the computer via the digital out to avoid any more hiss/loss of quality.

For me it's all about the MPC-60 or Ensoniq EPS16+ lol

All MPC-60 other than lead synth and vocal http://www.sendspace.com/file/1j9rn8

The S-3000 is very punchy and find it also a bit muddy...the 60 is so laid back, in a weird way it like sucks the dynamics out of things and just makes things gel easier but at the same time it's rather clean and nice.

Edited by vinyl_junkie (21/06/11 10:53 AM)

Quote vinyl_junkie:

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the 60 is so laid back, in a weird way it like sucks the dynamics out of things and just makes things gel easier but at the same time it's rather clean and nice.

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And I believe the MPC60 is the same engine as the S900?

Nice Track - is the reverb sampled onto the MPC?

Edited by TrickyDicky (21/06/11 11:31 AM)

Thanks, the track is going through a Mackie SR 32-4 VLZ Pro and the reverb is from a Lexicon LXP-15 mk2. Reverb is live through the desk, the MPC-60 is unexpanded so all the 13.1 sampling seconds is used with music.
The bass sound in the 60 is a single shot from a SH-101 that's played with the 16 levels feature.
The 2 track mix from the Mackie was recorded into Logic 7 where I applied a bit of compression from one of the standard Logic compressors.

Ain't got a clue re S-900 sampling engine, people like to say so probs cos they are both 12 bit but the S-950 (Not sure about the 900) is linear 12 bit and the MPC-60 is non linear 12 bit(Apparently for lower noise)..again MPC-60 is 16 voice..S sampler is only 8 voice poly etc etc
Haven't used a S-900/950 so can't compare to the MPC but imo they are two totally different machines albeit both hardware was designed by the same guy (David Cockerell) with the MPC oviously also having input from Roger Linn

Edited by vinyl_junkie (21/06/11 11:41 AM)

I think the best thing is to evaluate your sampler properly. 'Process' a few loops and things, and put them back into Ableton, did that really add anything?

I have my set up pretty much down to a Laptop, an old sampler (s950) and a 1/4 inch tape machine. I find thats all I need for electronic music for outboard!

Sure i have plenty of other junk, pedals old Alesis boxes etc etc, but You dont have to get rid of everything, you just need a bit of analog grit and a bit of digital grit. Replace the 3000 with something older like an MPC 60, and just treat it like a special effect. You are never going to get total intergration, just mix and match.

Sometimes I think, if the house burnt down, maybe I would only really miss the laptop - I know I can complete a track with that alone, but somehow having just a few choice bits of 'funky junk' helps mix things up - and at least keeps me moving round the studio to actually patch things up and stuff!

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Would a touch of bitcrusher help get the sound you're looking for?

Bitcrushers and distortion can help in some cases, but if you really want to accurately emulate the sound of your old equipment you need to 'sample' the sound using a program called Nebula3. Its a time consuming process but fortunately a lot of people have created some emulations themselves which you can use.

Someone has done a MPC 3000 here http://rhythminmind.net/1313/?p=2701

You will also need to buy Nebula 3 - its an amazing sounding plugin with great EQs and tape emulations so I would recommend it anyway. Two things however - it doesn't have the prettiest interface, and it is fairly cpu intensive with some programs.

I've got that MPC3000 program for Nebula 3 Pro, and it does add a slightly tailored frequency response and some benign 2nd and 3rd harmonic distortion when driven a little hard. I'ts subtle stuff though (just like the real thing ).

There are plenty of other Nebula 3 Pro 'preamps' available though - I'm particularly taken with AlexB's Preamp Color Suite - a beautifully sampled collection of 35 preamps divided into Solid State and Tube folders, that provide a huge amount of hardware variety, from warm and fat to hard and cold. Just 20 Euros, and well worth the price!

www.alessandroboschi.eu/html/en/preamp_color_suite.htm


Martin

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YewTreeMagic

Thanks Martin, I think might get that right now! Any other gems you have spotted?

Bit crusher's are wicked, what I sometimes do is run it like people would do parallel compression but instead of the compressor I use a bit crusher (sometimes with a hi-pass on the bit-crusher channel) and mix it in with the dry signal in Logic... Even after using all the hardware I have it's never enough hahah

Edited by vinyl_junkie (22/06/11 10:51 AM)

I'm going to hate myself for giving this one away , but a VST effect I use a lot is Tube Baby. Bass, vocals, drums... about the only thing I don't use it on is guitar! Yep, sit it out there on a send effect and blend it in for some subtle crushy goodness.

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An Eagle for an Emperor, A Kestrel for a Knave.

Quote johnny h:

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Thanks Martin, I think might get that right now! Any other gems you have spotted?

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You'll have to wait for my forthcoming review of the latest version of Nebula 3 Pro and its most exciting libraries


Martin

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YewTreeMagic