Hi

I recently installed a couple of new 1TB WD Blue Caviar drives.

Using DAW today I noticed an annoying (quiet but noticable) high pitch noise - bit like a fax machine signal.

At first I thought it was the new drives, but it's actually coming through speakers.

So I'm guessing this is some kind of electrical interference.

I also replaced my old CRT monitors with 2 flat LCD's a while back.

Hardware attached = BCF2000, BCR2000, Kenton Plugstation, TC PoCo Firewire, J-Station, RME Multiface

Any ideas exactly what this could be & how to eliminate it ?


thanks

Have you had a read of this:

Funny Noises With Your Audio

HTH. Mike

Quote Mike Stranks:

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Have you had a read of this:

<a href="/forum/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=222392&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&am p;o=365&fpart=1#222392" target="_blank">Funny Noises With Your Audio</a>

HTH. Mike

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Thanks

However that does seem to be referring mainly to laptops.

This is a desktop DAW.

It does indeed, because so many laptop owners suffer from this problem, but it's not exclusive to laptops - you can have ground loop problems on desktop-based computers too, and in fact with any audio system where at least two items are earthed via their mains cables.


Martin

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YewTreeMagic

Would it be advisable to not have the monitors on the same mains out, or wouldn't it make a difference seeing that they are attached to the graphics card?

Thanks

You’ll invariably have far fewer grounding problems if you plug your entire studio into a single main outlet and use distribution blocks in a star formation to give yourself more sockets.

Even plugging in one device to a mains outlet on the other side of the same room has given me problems in the past, because the wiring for this may come from an entirely different part of the building, resulting in the two sockets having many metres of main cables between them (and hence a potentially HUGE ground loop )


Martin

--------------------
YewTreeMagic

Thanks

I've tried arranging all power leads to come from a single outlet - no change.

I've tried turning off /on all attached hardware sequentially to try & narrow it down - no change.

The only thing I've found for sure is that turning the amp volume down turns the sound down (only thing going into amp is twin phono from RME Multiface.

Also detaching outputs from Multiface kills the high pitched whining.

So something created by soundcard and/or leads from soundcard to amp ?

No signal is registering on any of the RME TotalMix channels.

There are also a LOT of cables crossing each other around the back of the DAW e.g. power, MIDI, ADAT, S/PDIF, Firewire, USB

Is this faint fax-machinelike sound the type associated with a groundloop problem ?

It probably is the hard drives. Does the sound go away when your drives are idle

Which IRQs are being shared with your RME and what is your OS?

Quote Music Manic:

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It probably is the hard drives. Does the sound go away when your drives are idle

Which IRQs are being shared with your RME and what is your OS?

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What sort of HD interference would be audible via the soundcard output, but not register on the RME TotalMix mixer ?

The noise is there moreorless all the time, but does vary in pitch & rhythm, as I say much like a fax machine signal ... or a harddrive seeking !?

I don't recall the previous 350GB Caviars doing this. Be gutted if I have to remove them to cure this

Quote basic channel:

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I've tried turning off /on all attached hardware sequentially to try & narrow it down - no change.

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You need to physically disconnect the attached hardware to break a possible ground loop - whether it's switched on or not may affect ground loop levels slightly, but the noise will remain.

Quote:

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Also detaching outputs from Multiface kills the high pitched whining.

So something created by soundcard and/or leads from soundcard to amp ?

No signal is registering on any of the RME TotalMix channels.

---

This suggests the ground loop is created when you connect the Multiface to other gear, and therefore you've found your culprit - a DI box (or balanced I/O between the Multiface and that gear should kill the whines as well

Quote:

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There are also a LOT of cables crossing each other around the back of the DAW e.g. power, MIDI, ADAT, S/PDIF, Firewire, USB

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Try to keep analogue audio cables well away from all those, but otherwise you should be OK.

Quote:

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Is this faint fax-machinelike sound the type associated with a groundloop problem ?

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Yes, that's exactly what most people get - a faint whine that changes with any activity of your mouse, hard drives and graphics card.

You're nearly there now!


Martin

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YewTreeMagic

Hi basic channel,
I had the exact same issue with my saffire pro. This really annoying digital noise that changed and sometimes stopped if I moved the mouse. The solution for me was to run my fire wire connection on a fire wire card and not the motherboard. Might be worth a try.

Hope it helps.
Paul.

Quote Martin Walker:

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Quote basic channel:

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I've tried turning off /on all attached hardware sequentially to try & narrow it down - no change.

---

You need to physically disconnect the attached hardware to break a possible ground loop - whether it's switched on or not may affect ground loop levels slightly, but the noise will remain.

Quote:

---

Also detaching outputs from Multiface kills the high pitched whining.

So something created by soundcard and/or leads from soundcard to amp ?

No signal is registering on any of the RME TotalMix channels.

---

This suggests the ground loop is created when you connect the Multiface to other gear, and therefore you've found your culprit - a DI box (or balanced I/O between the Multiface and that gear should kill the whines as well

Quote:

---

There are also a LOT of cables crossing each other around the back of the DAW e.g. power, MIDI, ADAT, S/PDIF, Firewire, USB

---

Try to keep analogue audio cables well away from all those, but otherwise you should be OK.

Quote:

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Is this faint fax-machinelike sound the type associated with a groundloop problem ?

---

Yes, that's exactly what most people get - a faint whine that changes with any activity of your mouse, hard drives and graphics card.

You're nearly there now!


Martin

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Many thanks - I feel like a dog with a bone now !

The MF breakout box has the previously described phono L+R analogue output leads attached, plus an ADAT In (from plugstation) & s/pdif In (from J Station).

I did detach the digital In's, but to no avail.

Where exactly should I attach the DI box / balanced IO you suggested ?

Also, when connecting the gear to a single mains socket I just kind daisy chained the 4-way multisockets. Is this correct ?

Quote mydrumming:

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Hi basic channel,
I had the exact same issue with my saffire pro. This really annoying digital noise that changed and sometimes stopped if I moved the mouse. The solution for me was to run my fire wire connection on a fire wire card and not the motherboard. Might be worth a try.

Hope it helps.
Paul.

---

Thanks

That's not really an option for me as I already use a TI chip pci-e card for Firewire to avoid the dreadful onboard Agere fw chip !

If the computers mainboard is a Gigabyte with an X58 chipset, then you could have a problem, that could be fixed by disabling the C1E and the EIST in the BIOS.
I've experienced this several times.
See for instance this thread http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/archive/1139845

Quote Indigo2:

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If the computers mainboard is a Gigabyte with an X58 chipset, then you could have a problem, that could be fixed by disabling the C1E and the EIST in the BIOS.
I've experienced this several times.
See for instance this thread http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/archive/1139845

---

No - it's an Asus:

http://www.asus.com/Motherboards/Intel_Socket_775/P5KEWIFIAP/

The Gigabyte UD5 squeal is a well known annoyance to DIY PC builders. Sometimes the noises can be heard acoustically from vibrating PSU components, but for most musicians the problem is audible as background noises in the output of their audio interface (particularly so with Firewire models).

If you hear such noises from your Firewire audio interface, unplug other audio gear from it and listen to the headphone output in isolation. If the noises have gone, you’re suffering from a ground loop, and can resort to the usual cures, such as balanced cabling or a line-level DI box.

If the noises remain, you might be another victim of the dreaded ‘UD5 squeal’, whose cure is to disable the ‘C1E CPU Enhanced Halt state’ in the Advanced CPU Features section of the BIOS, which should also cure any PSU noises. This parameter is normally used to reduce power consumption but, due to an unfortunate design flaw, can produce a noisy side-effect with this motherboard model.

However, permanently disabling the hardware throttling schemes named EIST (Enhanced Intel Speedstep Technology) and C1E enhanced halt state is also recommended on many PCs that have them listed in their BIOS, to avoid the processor clock speed being changed behind your back. Basically if you're suffering from background noises, try disabling both of these before you tear all your hair out.

Also, you should resist any temptation to install specialist overclocking utilities from your motherboard manufacturer, such as Gigabyte’s EasyTune, which also result in audio drop-outs for the same reason.

You should also make sure your Windows Power Scheme is set to ‘Always On’ under Windows XP, or ‘High Performance’ with Windows Vista and Windows 7.


Martin

--------------------
YewTreeMagic

Quote Martin Walker:

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The Gigabyte UD5 squeal is a well known annoyance to DIY PC builders. Sometimes the noises can be heard acoustically from vibrating PSU components, but for most musicians the problem is audible as background noises in the output of their audio interface (particularly so with Firewire models).

If you hear such noises from your Firewire audio interface, unplug other audio gear from it and listen to the headphone output in isolation. If the noises have gone, you’re suffering from a ground loop, and can resort to the usual cures, such as balanced cabling or a line-level DI box.

If the noises remain, you might be another victim of the dreaded ‘UD5 squeal’, whose cure is to disable the ‘C1E CPU Enhanced Halt state’ in the Advanced CPU Features section of the BIOS, which should also cure any PSU noises. This parameter is normally used to reduce power consumption but, due to an unfortunate design flaw, can produce a noisy side-effect with this motherboard model.

However, permanently disabling the hardware throttling schemes named EIST (Enhanced Intel Speedstep Technology) and C1E enhanced halt state is also recommended on many PCs that have them listed in their BIOS, to avoid the processor clock speed being changed behind your back. Basically if you're suffering from background noises, try disabling both of these before you tear all your hair out.

Also, you should resist any temptation to install specialist overclocking utilities from your motherboard manufacturer, such as Gigabyte’s EasyTune, which also result in audio drop-outs for the same reason.

You should also make sure your Windows Power Scheme is set to ‘Always On’ under Windows XP, or ‘High Performance’ with Windows Vista and Windows 7.


Martin

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Thanks again

The Multiface is a pci device, so I'm guessing some of the above doesn't apply ?

However will investigate those BIOS options & keep my fingers crossed.

If this noise is only heard when the 2 phone cables are plugged in (Multiface analogue outputs --> hifi amp), then maybe better shielded cables might help ? What's the difference between balanced & shielded in this context ?

Update:


I've tried disabling those mboard options in BIOS - no change.

Tried pulling power on all attached hardware one by one - no change.

One thing I hadn't tried was pulling the cable connecting Multiface to pci card - that killed the sound, same as pulling the audio leads. Does this add any further info ?

I can't remember the spec on these phone cables - although they do say "noiseless microphone cable 20/0.12" on the casing.

Also sound does not alter in level when moving the output faders on TotalMix (and as mentioned before, doesn't register on the VU meters) - so I'm assuming this sound won't make it's way in to any recordings ?

OK - now you’ve made those BIOS changes and there’s no difference it must be a ground loop, as confirmed by the fact that the noises are only heard when connecting cables between the Multiface audio outputs and your hi-fi
inputs.

So this is where you need a stereo DI box to break the ground loop - between the Multiface outputs and the hi-fi inputs.


Martin

--------------------
YewTreeMagic

Something like this should do it ?


http://www.dv247.com/studio-equipment/samson-s-direct-plus-stereo-direct-b ox--34384


Does it matter about balanced / unbalanced inputs+outputs here ?

If you're connecting to a standard amplifier with line-level inputs you'll need something like this:

ART CleanBox II

or this:

ART DTI

... reason being that these isolators keep the signal at line-level - which is what you want - whereas a DI drops the signal to mic-level.

Regards. Mike

Quote Mike Stranks:

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If you're connecting to a standard amplifier with line-level inputs you'll need something like this:

ART CleanBox II

or this:

ART DTI

... reason being that these isolators keep the signal at line-level - which is what you want - whereas a DI drops the signal to mic-level.

Regards. Mike

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Thanks

But now I'm a bit confused again

That product refers to 60Hz hum. But I'm not getting that - mine as much more high pitched than that.

Quote basic channel:

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Thanks

But now I'm a bit confused again

That product refers to 60Hz hum. But I'm not getting that - mine as much more high pitched than that.

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Monitors and brightness levels?

Quote basic channel:

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Quote Mike Stranks:

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If you're connecting to a standard amplifier with line-level inputs you'll need something like this:

ART CleanBox II

or this:

ART DTI

... reason being that these isolators keep the signal at line-level - which is what you want - whereas a DI drops the signal to mic-level.

Regards. Mike

---

Thanks

But now I'm a bit confused again

That product refers to 60Hz hum. But I'm not getting that - mine as much more high pitched than that.

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I think you'll be fine... these boxes usually do the biz where any sort of hum-loop is involved - and from all the investigations you've done that defo seems to be what you've got.

Of course, no guarantee is given or implied!

Just ordered !

£40 seems a bit steep, but if it cures this it will be worth it.

The ART Cleanbox II has solved countless ground loop problems for musicians over the years without compromising audio quality - fingers crossed that it solves your problems too

Let us know how you get on!


Martin

--------------------
YewTreeMagic

http://www.orchid-electronics.co.uk/

These guys make an interesting range of products including a single channel earth breaker traff box for £19, handy for isolating guitar amp FX loops say.

I know no more about them than the link! Maybe a review of some of the products could be arranged?

Dave.

Nice find Dave... I'll be looking more closely later...

Quote Mike Stranks:

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Nice find Dave... I'll be looking more closely later...

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Err just for the record!
I suggested that site NOT because the products are a wee bit CHEAPER (but that don't hurt?)but because I like to promote home grown companies where I can.

The "re amp" box looks particularly good value. I wonder why they don't describe it as such..trade name perhaps?

Dave.

Orchid Electronics have been at the Exeter Analogue to Digital show for the last 3 years, and they have have a fine reputation in the South West.

Andy

--------------------
When the going gets weird, the Weird turn Pro.

...although I must point that that this £19 transformer box, while incredibly useful, would work out to £38 for stereo, which is almost the same price as the ART Cleanbox II in its perhaps more convenient stereo format

Doh - just noticed Orchid Electronics have a stereo version for just £35 inc VAT & carriage:

www.orchid-electronics.co.uk/dual_isolator.htm


Martin

--------------------
YewTreeMagic

Heh!

Ok Martin.
The reason I pointed out the single channel box was that I see a lot hum loop questions on another forum much more guitar centred and these invlove either amp+amp hum problems or amp FX loop pc recording issues and the guys are understandably loath to pay for a redundant channel.

(nor do they actually need ART quality and I often suggest an OEP 1200 in a tin.)

Dave.

I had this same problem with my setup and bought a Behringer HD400 Hum Distroyer which solved the problem.

http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/HD400.aspx

Would there be any difference in the audio quality passed through either the Orchid Dual Isolator or ART CleanBOX II compared to the Behringer HD400?

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www.richardpenrose.com

Quote dickiefunk:

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Would there be any difference in the audio quality passed through either the Orchid Dual Isolator or ART CleanBOX II compared to the Behringer HD400?

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Perhaps, but then I've got one of these between my media center and my amp and it sounds alright so odd's are the Beringer isn't doing too bad a job.

--------------------
ScanProAudio & 3XS Audio Systems
ScanProAudio Blog

Quote Pete Kaine:

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Quote dickiefunk:

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Would there be any difference in the audio quality passed through either the Orchid Dual Isolator or ART CleanBOX II compared to the Behringer HD400?

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Perhaps, but then I've got one of these between my media center and my amp and it sounds alright so odd's are the Beringer isn't doing too bad a job.

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Yes, I have found most "modest" transformers are ok working at around neg 10. In fact they probably "warm" the bass up a bit!

Dave.

Check out these responses to a similar question Dickie posted in another thread...

Isolation Transformer Quality

FWIW I agree with those comments...

Thanks everyone

Finally got the time to test the DAW with ART box tonight - noise has gone.

Can now concentrate on making music

Edited by basic channel (19/08/11 11:06 PM)

Quote basic channel:

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Thanks everyone

Finally got the time to test the DAW with ART box tonight - noise has gone.

Can now concentrate on making music

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Excellent!

Damn another thing I have to buy now.

I just bought the VRM Box and I am getting the same sound and it is definitely the hard disk.
The problem is it is SPDIF so it's going to be hard getting rid of the noise.

Is there any way to get rid of the hard disk grounding noise at source(rather than use a box to eliminate it) that enters the soundcards?

Thanks