Quote Korff:

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Quote Commander:

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speak.

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Ghastly word, that. Very tinny...

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Aaaaaaiiiiiieeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!!

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An Eagle for an Emperor, A Kestrel for a Knave.

All of you, you are trying to discuss the following topics, without actually known what it is you are trying to discuss -

Cross_elasticity_of_demand

Price_elasticity_of_demand

Marginal_costs

Fixed_costs

Snob_effect

Your homework is now to actually write 250 of your own words (that this time make sense) avoiding the word 'nub', introducing no fewer than two of the above concepts, as applied to sample libraries. At least one calculation, showing changes in profit at different prices, is to be included and at least one example of fixed costs in software must be shown and discussed. Marks will be deducted for excessive length.

Quote The Red Bladder:

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All of you, you are trying to discuss the following topics, without actually known what it is you are trying to discuss -

---

Ah bladders. But I DO know

Seems a couple of others do too - it's the decriers that don't!

Dear lord!!

I have visions of my old red A-Level 'Economics' folder with a 'Wind and Wuthering' sticker on the cover, a drawing of a MiniMoog in every margin and lots of cost/benefit diagrams in blue and red ink.

No - I won't go back there I tell you. No! No!

--------------------
An Eagle for an Emperor, A Kestrel for a Knave.

Quote narcoman:

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Quote The Red Bladder:

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All of you, you are trying to discuss the following topics, without actually known what it is you are trying to discuss -

---

Ah bladders. But I DO know

Seems a couple of others do too - it's the decriers that don't!

---

bladder!

Now that's a hell of a word!

"Speak!" He cried as he caught his bladder between the buttocks of that damn nub.

--------------------
Original artwork and unique devices inspired by vintage technology http://www.thisisobsolete.com

Quote narcoman:

---

But I DO know

Seems a couple of others do too - it's the decriers that don't!

---

Marks can only be allocated for topics that are clearly linked to a named and established economic theory or phenomenon. Candidates must be able to show that, when discussing broad issues of commercial economic theory, they are able to identify and discuss the theories underlying such topics and provide examples of calculations based on these.

Extra points may be awarded for graphs with included formulae, showing optimum pricing for intellectual property. Special attention is to be paid to the differences between physical goods and such intellectual property as a sample library, outlining the variations in importance of fixed and variable costs in different types of goods.

Many of us are not rich or snobs. As you have rather wonderfully put it shtum.

I run a recording studio for the love of it, I compose music with some like minded cohorts in my spare time in some wild aim for some success somehow.

My studio has very expensive high quality equipment in it. My flat is a 1 room studio with very little else apart from a bed a sofa and a basic kitchen.

My monitoring system is worth well over £3000, my computer £2000, Pro Tools rig £2000, Mic pre's £1000. That is so much more than the contents of my flat. I am not rich neither are many of the people I collaborate or hang around with.

Most of us, due to my persuasion have considered that paying proper prices for software is a good thing. If you need to save up lots of money for that £300 drum library, it will make you think is it what you really need and is it worth it?

Stuff like this is actually made worse by cut down versions of things or bundling Logic Pro to students for £120, the content you get is RIDICULOUS, by ridiculous I mean fantastic value for money and an absolutely amazing deal.

I have only just recently finished a university course with huge debt and mostly a big fat waste of time, but I am not about to start pirating sample libraries. I would perhaps have understood more if you had made the statement about something far more expensive for example Hollywood strings is more than double your £300 statement and all you get in that is strings right? But even then the development costs are huge numbers for recording large numbers of top level players with the right gear in the right rooms.

I guess the thing is you can't fake orchestral sampling too well, you need the best to sound the best. And the best costs....

--------------------
Squarehead Jam Jar Facebook Jam Jar

Quote The Red Bladder:

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Quote narcoman:

---

But I DO know

Seems a couple of others do too - it's the decriers that don't!

---

Marks can only be allocated for topics that are clearly linked to a named and established economic theory or phenomenon. Candidates must be able to show that, when discussing broad issues of commercial economic theory, they are able to identify and discuss the theories underlying such topics and provide examples of calculations based on these.

Extra points may be awarded for graphs with included formulae, showing optimum pricing for intellectual property. Special attention is to be paid to the differences between physical goods and such intellectual property as a sample library, outlining the variations in importance of fixed and variable costs in different types of goods.

---

OR

I make money.

Quote The Red Bladder:

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All of you, you are trying to discuss the following topics, without actually known what it is you are trying to discuss -

---

Less of the "all" please.

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...

Quote Hugh Robjohns:

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It feels a bit like the world is against Sthum and he feels the need to keep repeating his views in an ever-more strident way as a defence.

---

Of course, everyone is entitled to their opinion but the reason why many of us seem to be against Sthum are because we're struggling to make sense of their views.

In my own case, I did used to have similar views to Sthum... Until I started to learn more about it.

Now Sthum... What I don't understand about your argument is how you'll happily pay for a Mercedes C class and some rather expensive monitors... Take your Mercedes, I believe it's a £32,000 car or there abouts. Now, why did you pay that much? It's clearly over priced considering that similarly sized Fords and Skodas etc can be than half the price yet cost roughly the same to produce.

And what about your monitors? £2500?!?!?! Jeez! When there are others for £250 that once again have a comparable production cost? Why do it?

Could it possibly be because they are better products? And could it be that those products are better because the manufacturers have spent so much more on development? And that's why they cost so much more then their less expensive counterparts?

I used to work in manufacturing so I know how the costs are broken down... Profit and the cost of the components are amongst the smallest things (your Mercedes for example will cost less than £5000 in terms of the component costs for example), it's usually the cost of development that's the biggie. That's why your Mercedes costs £32,000 and a similar Ford or Skoda doesn't, Mercedes spend around £5 million per day on development and the others don't. The only way the development costs can be offset is by economies of scale... There more you expect to sell, the lower the price can be. If it's something that you're only going to sell a few of (such as the Spitfire Audio products mentioned earlier) then the prices have to be much higher.

It doesn't matter whether it's a car, a pair of monitors or a sample library, all of the above still applies. Ok, so a downloadable sample library can effectively be duplicated for free but that's not where it's cost lies.

In the case of the one you mention, it's very much a niche product that few will be interested in... Even if it was available for free I wouldn't bother with it and I guess many others may feel the same. Lets say for example, at $299, they get 1000 customers over the next 12 months (that's probably a fairly realistic number of customers btw)... If it was sold for $99, how many more sales would they get? I'd guess, given the kind of product it is, that they'd struggle to get 500 more which would result in a significant loss of revenue and could well result in wiping out any profit. And you really expect them to sell it for $99?

Seriously, while we would all like things to be less expensive, this is the real world, we can't always get what we want.

Quote Steve Hill:

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Quote The Red Bladder:

---

All of you, you are trying to discuss the following topics, without actually known what it is you are trying to discuss -

---

Less of the "all" please.

---

Oops!! Forgot about you!!

Quote Commander:

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my first sampler (Akai S900 - still got it in a lock up somewhere)

---

And ironically, some of the very people who complain about the cost of software and libraries, etc., will give you good money for that old relic!

--------------------
Website / Music Lab Machines / Blog

Quote The Elf:

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Dear lord!!

I have visions of my old red A-Level 'Economics' folder with a 'Wind and Wuthering' sticker on the cover, a drawing of a MiniMoog in every margin and lots of cost/benefit diagrams in blue and red ink.

No - I won't go back there I tell you. No! No!

---

we share the same nightmare-ish memories.... barring the minimoog, mine had pictures of les pauls and pointy headstocks.

Quote narcoman:

---

Quote The Red Bladder:

---

Quote narcoman:

---

But I DO know

Seems a couple of others do too - it's the decriers that don't!

---

Marks can only be allocated for topics that are clearly linked to a named and established economic theory or phenomenon. Candidates must be able to show that, when discussing broad issues of commercial economic theory, they are able to identify and discuss the theories underlying such topics and provide examples of calculations based on these.

Extra points may be awarded for graphs with included formulae, showing optimum pricing for intellectual property. Special attention is to be paid to the differences between physical goods and such intellectual property as a sample library, outlining the variations in importance of fixed and variable costs in different types of goods.

---

OR

I make money.

---

Alright for some innit.

--------------------
Squarehead Jam Jar Facebook Jam Jar

.




I AM SO GLAD I STARTED THIS THREAD......

Thanks to everyone for their honest views!  Regardless of whether you agreed with me or not.


I take my hat off to you HOLLOWSUN!  You handled yourself impeccably (bar the odd jibe)

I would never have known (on a personal level) just how deeply damaging piracy can be to all concerned and the serious emotive issues involved.
 You think you know... but unless you hear it from the horses mouth you don't really know anything!
And your right when you say that the pirates believe that they are sticking it to the big companies rather than smaller hard working real life individuals.

To hear a personal account too was very constructive, so I thank you for taking time to enlighten me!

Indeed I believe that I've clearly demonstrated my sympathies for software developers everywhere!  That included you too Hollowsun!

I am still of the opinion that ONE of the main reasons why piracy exists today and will always continue to flourish is because of excessively high retail prices!  
I see and hear this every time I'm out on the ground.  From the very people who do it on a regular basis.  Of course there should never be an excuse for piracy and those that think otherwise are just kidding themselves!

As I've said I have talked at great length with many groups of young people about this very topic and I can tell you that a good few of them would prefer not to and actually do not download anything illegally.  Instead they save up like everyone else and eventually buy what they need.
On a few occasions (during debate related subjects) they too have stood up for the music industry.  Mainly citing their love for the artist as one of the main reasons why they are prepared to part with their cash.
They believe that if they do not support their favourite artist that they (the artist) may stop producing great original music because of lack of financing!
Its good to see that they actually embrace this train of thought.  
At least its a start!

There again over the past couple of years we've seen a dramatic drop in retail prices for both CD Albums and DVD's.  
As you all know years ago a cd album used to cost any where between £12.99 and £16.99.  Which even then I thought was disgusting.  Now most of them are under £10.
I would love to know what the figures are in relation to this?  As to  whether they're selling more albums now because of the low prices and has this reinvigorated the publics interest in buying a legit version?
I believe that the average person would rather pay for and receive the original cd, art work and dual case.  So they can be stacked nicely in their cool neatly displayed album collection.   Especially if it doesn't cost them an arm and a leg.

Could this thinking be applied to music software development?
All I've ever received were card board boxes.. BORING!!
The logic Pro box is quite cool and is certainly an attractive way to present the product you've spent months or years developing.
Surely the packaging is an essential part of getting your product right?
I know i'd rather receive a shiny/cool box for my sample collection than the usual hard paper.
Apple excel in this field every time they package something! Even their iMac's are a delight to unravel.
 
The re emergence of the Vinyl format too was interesting?  As far as I know the pirates haven't bothered with it?
Its just a pity you can't sell your samples via an awkward format like vinyl?

I have also heard many kids state that the reason why they don't buy into the pirated games scene is because they are afraid that Games developers will stop making games as a result?

To finish....

I am of course entitled to my own opinion and as such I stand by most of what I've said in this thread.

One thing is obvious though.... this is a very hot topic!


OK Hugh.... If you like... You can shut it down now?


Sthum............




.

CD sales are down, EMI is in administration, Warners are not far behind.

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...

Quote JamesSimpson:

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Alright for some innit.

---

Diversify. It's the only way!

"Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid." — Albert Einstein

I suppose there could be an argument that samplists have actually got a bloody cheek complaining about people ripping off their samples when they, in some cases, are sampling the sounds of instruments that had fortunes in R&D, manufacture, marketing, distribution etc, spent on them in the first place.

I mean what have these sampling Johnnies ever done for us?

I mean really; look at the state of the music industry? People would say that actually it's never been so lively and varied and vibrant and exciting and experimental - but thats's rubbish. It's like standing next to a fax machine which is pumping out page after page of faxes of the paintings of the great masters, one after the other.

Yes, you can see what they are, but there's no depth, no originality, no brush strokes. And by now there's so many of the damned things that you are papering the walls with them. And nobody can sell a real painting because there's no room on the walls and so artists stop making good paintings and anyway everyone's had fax painting up to here - everytime they walk past the fax machine there's another pile of the rubbish!

And the studios are closing and the picture framers have all shut down and the last of the die-hard professionals are now sucked into this madness and they are on the fax painting bandwagon and pumping out two a day just to keep their head above water 'cos a really good fax painting might fetch a penny a copy but lots of people are doing them for free!

I know, silly aren't I?

But a lot of people say they can trace the demise of what we used to know as the music industry back to the internet, but me, i say it was the proliferation of relatively cheap/free high quality samples.

Because now anyone with a keyboard and one of those piano roll editor DAW gadgets can make studio quality sounding music to their hearts content and they are, and they are flooding the earth with this crap to - imo - the detriment of music itself.

Quote sthum:

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I take my hat off to you HOLLOWSUN!  You handled yourself impeccably (bar the odd jibe)

I would never have known (on a personal level) just how deeply damaging piracy can be to all concerned and the serious emotive issues involved.
 You think you know... but unless you hear it from the horses mouth you don't really know anything!
And your right when you say that the pirates believe that they are sticking it to the big companies rather than smaller hard working real life individuals.

To hear a personal account too was very constructive, so I thank you for taking time to enlighten me!

Indeed I believe that I've clearly demonstrated my sympathies for software developers everywhere!  That included you too Hollowsun!

---

I know that and no animosity here (despite the odd jibe!) - I am glad I have been able to maybe give you an insight or two of life on the other side of the fence. Pass it on.

Must dash, though - have to dress for dinner as the butler's just banged the gong to summon us!

--------------------
Website / Music Lab Machines / Blog

Way way waaaay back to the beginning...

The cost of those sample packages = ten hours of my local top class drummer's time and travel costs, i.e. Two live sessions if he's parachuted in to replace some i-go-faster-when-i-hit-harder talent.

Everyone has a cost of living, and for equivalent top dollar samples that doesn't seem an unreasonable cost in comparison, particularly as the samples don't get tired, spill drinks over my kit, lose time, smack the OH mic because they missed their last fill, or cough during a cymbal tail-off which is a &£!?@! to clean up in post.

Nothing stopping you sampling a kit yourself, if you think the cost is prohibitive. Tell us how you get on :-)

Nub, nub speak
Nub, speak
Nub, nub speak
Nub, speak

..................This thread's got a great beat!

I've just spent $99 on some plug-ins for Adobe Premiere Pro that make video look like

OH MY GOD ALL THIS FOR $99 LOUSY BUCKS THAT"S MENTAL!

(the main demo is a bit cheesy, look at the demos in each plug-in page instead, they're only 10 seconds long or thereabouts)

Amazing stuff.

I think that's cheap. Their full suite is $500. That's too expensive for me but that doesn't mean it's expensive per se. In reality the kind of video guys who use this sort of stuff in their jobs probably earn that in a day anyway.

I think some people who don't place a high value on software either don't know how to use it or lack the imagination to see it's potential.

--------------------
Original artwork and unique devices inspired by vintage technology http://www.thisisobsolete.com

Edited by jellyjim (18/08/11 12:39 AM)

Sorry but I can't resist...

The photo/video version of THIS for audio (if you have Kontakt) ...

Put the turd back into your polish!!

Bugger - Hugh's chasing me round the room now with a baseball bat!

--------------------
Website / Music Lab Machines / Blog

sthum did say Sample Logic Rumble pack, Marching and Cinematic Drums was an awesome product - which is nice.
sthum - did you need it?

--------------------
.. is this thing on?

Edited by Stan (18/08/11 02:22 AM)

Quote ow:

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The Bow is used to play rhe violin (and other stringed instruments) and create the music; it's part of the intsrument so to speak.



Hope this helps.

---

Computers are a musical instrument too. Believe it or not engineers are a part of the music.
Do you think Hendrix built all his effects and engineered his own stuff to create the final sound?

The bow won't make the player more imaginative but will create a sweeter sound. Just like 96k.

Hope that helps you understand my point.Feel free to ask if you still don't get it.

Too many nitpickers here who think they're smart!

Quote Music Manic:

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...The bow won't make the player more imaginative...

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I disagree

Quote:

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Too many nitpickers here who think they're smart!

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I agree

Quote Music Manic:

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The bow won't make the player more imaginative

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Oh I dunno. Jimmy Page seemed to find a new lease of life with it.

Quote ow:

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Quote Music Manic:

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...The bow won't make the player more imaginative...

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I disagree

Quote:

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Too many nitpickers here who think they're smart!

---

I agree

---

I concur with those sentiments.

Quote A Non O Miss:

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"Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid." — Albert Einstein

---

"On my first day at Princeton, one of the class bought me an enourmous round chocolate cake with 'Saturnian rings' made from marzipan and jam. At the time I was pleased and took it home to my wife who, whilst appreciating the sentiment, was a little angry because she had put me on a strict diet the week before...in the end, we ended up giving it to Mr. Ovenwald next door..."

If this is not a wind up, then it is trolling. This particular troll has managed to get more 'air space' than any other I've seen by retaining enough apparent integrity to fool the forum experts here, who would certainly have given short shrift to a more easily classified troll.

--------------------
The only excuse we have for making music in the first place is to make it differently..vis-a-vis our own difference (Glenn Gould)

Quote Music Manic:

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Too many nitpickers here who think they're smart!

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Too many nitpickers here who ARE smart you mean

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Original artwork and unique devices inspired by vintage technology http://www.thisisobsolete.com

Quote Music Manic:

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The bow won't make the player more imaginative but will create a sweeter sound.

---

I am assuming you don't actually play the violin.

--------------------
Website / Music Lab Machines / Blog

Quote hollowsun:

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Quote Music Manic:

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The bow won't make the player more imaginative but will create a sweeter sound.

---

I am assuming you don't actually play the violin.

---

No I don't, but I know a stradivarius will sound better than a £50 violin because of the engineering and physics. Nothing to do with musicianship which, again, is my point of wanting to know the mechanics of how a computer re-produces sound which is sweetest to my ears. Please don't talk about production.
How will the bow be creative? If it's different to a bow that you've learnt on. then your mechanics will have to readjust and most probably dampen you. Living life and the conditions you're under makes me more creative than having to try a different pick on my guitar.

As to Jimmy Page's use of one? Mmm! didn't really do much for me. Did it help him create those great riffs? I don't think so, I reckon it was the sound of his guitar and amp and the contemporary sound of rock/blues. I don't think he would of got the same feel by using a mandolin.

It's an engineers job to get the best sound recording and the artist's to create the best performance. I've had to learn how to mix and engineer my songs because there are too many cowboys out there. Computers win hands down when you think of all the processes you had to go through in the analogue world.
There are too many bad productions and mixes that spoil my enjoyment. I have many different recordings of the four seasons. Some send a shiver down my spine and some don't even move me. Exactly the same notes on each.

If you believe this forum is just for the experts to talk, then we'll all leave you to it and you'll have a magazine that sells 20 copies only.

Hugh and Dan don't nitpick, they educate and correct while airing there views without taking sides. IMO that's the sign of a true pro.

Quote Howdy Doody Time:

---

If this is not a wind up, then it is trolling. This particular troll has managed to get more 'air space' than any other I've seen by retaining enough apparent integrity to fool the forum experts here, who would certainly have given short shrift to a more easily classified troll.

---

That's Democracy.

Quote Music Manic:

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Quote Howdy Doody Time:

---

If this is not a wind up, then it is trolling. This particular troll has managed to get more 'air space' than any other I've seen by retaining enough apparent integrity to fool the forum experts here, who would certainly have given short shrift to a more easily classified troll.

---

That's Democracy.

---

[deepWestCountryAccent]

Might not be a troll, might be a WITCH! Lots'a'witches round these parts at this time'a'year, havin' opinions and changin' their minds - tricky they be - tricky as a fox. I've seen 'em, at dusk, arguin' amongst 'emselves and cookin' up their trouble.

Look at his nose! If that ain't a witches nose i dunno what is. Lets get the boys from the village and show this bloody big nosed witch what we do to his kind round these parts.

[/deepWestCountryAccent]

Quote Music Manic:

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How will the bow be creative?

---

Because it enables you to play better and articulate and phrase better.

Buy some lumpen cheap carbon fibre thing and it's a struggle when crossing strings especially in faster pieces with rapid arpeggios, etc. (such as Bach's violin concerto, for example).

And balance is important. The bow is held and moved (bowed) and subtly rotated with just a few fingers that have to deal with all sorts of techniques from long, sustained languid notes to tight marcato and detaché and countless other techniques. And there's playing on the edge of the bow or playing with a flatter bow and anywhere in between and all of this can change in microseconds. Balance, therefore, is vitally important for the player to manipulate the bow effectively to obtain the most expression (and hence 'creativity') out of the instrument.

Weight is also important and a heavier (cheap) bow is more difficult to manipulate. You can't compare it with playing a guitar, the strings of which are on a flat plain; with a fiddle and the arc of the strings, the angle of the bow and the point of contact is vital and a heavy bow is hard to manage and articulate phrases, etc., fluidly. And tiring - if you have seen the right hand arm movement of a typical violinist, you might understand how weight matters.

If I was to draw any kind of comparison with a guitar, it'd be to suggest doing some high speed shredding with a 50p coin instead of your usual plectrum ... which might give you some idea but it's not an ideal analogy.

Modern carbon fibre bows are good but they can't compare with a hand crafted, hand balanced, lightweight wooden bow of old. And you pay for those.

And £2,000 is actually not a lot compared with some and if you watch The Proms, each of the string players in the orchestra may well have £75,000's worth of fiddle and bow under their chins.

Yes - you can get cheaper bows and you may well be lucky. There's one violin soloist of yesteryear who was appearing in a concert in America and broke his bow and bought some cheap thing for something like $1 in a second-hand shop...

And it was perfect for him and stayed with him all his career.

Our daughter had this bow on loan from her teacher for quite a while (it was the one he used when he was a pro player) and she immediately felt 'at one' with it - the balance and weight, etc., suited her physique and strength. Then it came up for sale (only because her teacher bought a better one - price unknown but more than we paid). If her teacher had chosen to, he could have put it on the open market and got three times that much (or more) but he wanted it to go to a good home.

So having established that the bow is an essential part of playing the violin, how that player is recorded is of no consequence to me. I have recordings of her on a cheap VCR and recordings of her done in a professional studio that caters specifically for classical music recording and it's the 'performance' that's the most important thing, not the recording quality necessarily and whether my daughter is recorded on a cassette machine or ProTools running at 192kHz is irrelevant - her 'performance' is all-important and this bow, though it may seem overkill, allows her to perform better and more expressively and more creatively.

--------------------
Website / Music Lab Machines / Blog

Quote ow:

---

Quote Music Manic:

---

Quote Howdy Doody Time:

---

If this is not a wind up, then it is trolling. This particular troll has managed to get more 'air space' than any other I've seen by retaining enough apparent integrity to fool the forum experts here, who would certainly have given short shrift to a more easily classified troll.

---

That's Democracy.

---

[deepWestCountryAccent]

Might not be a troll, might be a WITCH! Lots'a'witches round these parts at this time'a'year, havin' opinions and changin' their minds - tricky they be - tricky as a fox. I've seen 'em, at dusk, arguin' amongst 'emselves and cookin' up their trouble.

Look at his nose! If that ain't a witches nose i dunno what is. Lets get the boys from the village and show this bloody big nosed witch what we do to his kind round these parts.

[/deepWestCountryAccent]

---

Yes witches have that label because they they don't agree with everyone and don't succumb to the sycophants.

Enjoy your forum it belongs to you.

Quote Music Manic:

---

Quote ow:

---

Quote Music Manic:

---

Quote Howdy Doody Time:

---

If this is not a wind up, then it is trolling. This particular troll has managed to get more 'air space' than any other I've seen by retaining enough apparent integrity to fool the forum experts here, who would certainly have given short shrift to a more easily classified troll.

---

That's Democracy.

---

[deepWestCountryAccent]

Might not be a troll, might be a WITCH! Lots'a'witches round these parts at this time'a'year, havin' opinions and changin' their minds - tricky they be - tricky as a fox. I've seen 'em, at dusk, arguin' amongst 'emselves and cookin' up their trouble.

Look at his nose! If that ain't a witches nose i dunno what is. Lets get the boys from the village and show this bloody big nosed witch what we do to his kind round these parts.

[/deepWestCountryAccent]

---

Yes witches have that label because they they don't agree with everyone and don't succumb to the sycophants.

Enjoy your forum it belongs to you.

---

clunkety clunk...ting..ting..ting...clunk...


(this is the unmistakeable sound of toys being thrown out of a pram...)

Quote:

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clunkety clunk...ting..ting..ting...clunk...


(this is the unmistakeable sound of toys being thrown out of a pram...)

---

Your pram obviously.
Words of a coward viewing the action

How sweet!