I'm probably being thick, but this has always bugged me whenever a singer or sax player asks for reverb in the monitor...

I have a Behringer UB2222FX desk, and I can't find a way of routing reverb to monitors within the desk - the only way I can do it is to take an FX output from the back of the desk and feed it into a channel, then use the channel as a reverb return and send reverb to monitors if necessary.

HOWEVER, this is a pretty rubbish solution, as:

1) the reverb sends are post-fade, so if I take the FOH level down of e.g. the singer, his/her reverb also goes down,
and
2) the returned reverb send to the monitor is independent of the dry send to the same monitor, so if said singer asks for less level, his/her reverb stays the same unless I change it as well.

I hope the above gibberish makes some sense to someone - but even if it doesn't, how do you get reverb to a monitor on a desk that doesn't provide that function?

Edited by Raphbass (18/08/11 08:30 PM)

I'd be inclined to stick something like this:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Alesis-Microverb-1-Outboard-Reverb-Echo-Effect-U nit-/190567092068?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item2c5eaf0f64#ht_702wt_1139

... between your aux out and your monitor. It'd not give you individual control per channel but rather an overall 'verb level but it's pretty flexible and compact.

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Ohm's Law states, "Your PA isn't as powerful as you think it is".

Thanks shufflebeat - I'm amazed you made any sense of my question given the typos which I've just edited...

I've got a picoverb somewhere, I'll dig it out and put it in the "problem solvers" box. Come to think of it I've got a nanoverb somewhere too - then both monitors would be covered.

That's fine if he wants ONLY himself in his monitor...

Quote Exalted Wombat:

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That's fine if he wants ONLY himself in his monitor...

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Err.. no. It'll be whatever's been routed/mixed to that aux send.

Just been doing some digging looking at manuals and it seems that if you use an external effects device then the return can be routed/mixed to the monitors as well as to the main bus. Matbe that would give you what you want. Certainly many of the not expensive mixers I've owned have had this 'effects to aux' facility.

HTH.

Quote Mike Stranks:

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Quote Exalted Wombat:

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That's fine if he wants ONLY himself in his monitor...

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Err.. no. It'll be whatever's been routed/mixed to that aux send.

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You misunderstood his point, which is the same one I would bring to that solution. If he wants only himself in the monitor that can be an appropriate solution, but if you are giving a full mix to the monitor that is going to turn it into a mushy mess(As everything will get verb) and will be much worse than no verb in the monitor.

Seablade

Yup.

OK... I see the point you're both making... coming back to this after some sleep does give it a new perspective.

If you've got a spare channel on the desk, then split the incoming signal two ways and use the Microverb as an insert on one channel. You can then route that channel to the monitors independently of everything else. Might be better than sticking the reverb across the aux, where everything gets clobbered with it.

The monitoring is usually very simple, just singer and sax that want to hear themselves and maybe each other - they never ever need drums or bass but might occasionally want keyboard and/or guitar...

If the singer and sax player each only wants themselves in their own monitor, the reverb/dry issue isn't a problem, as I just use the master send level for that monitor - though the reverb still changes if I adjust the FOH level, but once there's something else in there it becomes more of a problem.

E.g. - singer asks for more of herself in the monitor, I either turn her up on her channel send, the reverb doesn't increase with it, or I turn up the master send, and she gets more sax that she didn't ask for. I turn down the sax in that monitor, but the sax reverb gets left at the same level unless I then go and tweak that as well, but the ratio of reverb in sax and vocal is set partly by the FOH faders, as it's all post-fade...

I have the solution! - "can I have some reverb in my monitor?" .... "nope."

Edited by Raphbass (19/08/11 09:31 AM)

Quote grab:

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If you've got a spare channel on the desk, then split the incoming signal two ways and use the Microverb as an insert on one channel. You can then route that channel to the monitors independently of everything else. Might be better than sticking the reverb across the aux, where everything gets clobbered with it.

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Thanks, I might try that - if the singer could put up with her reverb level as it is in FOH then I could just use the one channel as normal but put the reverb in the insert... well, until someone says "can I have the vocals in my monitor but without reverb"!!!

PA is such fun, except the bit that involves other people.

Here's another solution - I could get another desk. There are lots of desks that internally route effects to monitors, I'm thinking of a Mackie ProFX16 cos I've got other Mackie stuff which seems pretty good but is not too far above Behringer money.

http://www.mackie.com/products/profx16/

I assume* the reverb sent to a monitor keeps its ratio to the dry signal if the dry send is changed... it would seem too stupid to have an effects-to-monitor function that left your bathroom noise continuing if you were taken out of a monitor... wouldn't it?


(*Assumption is the mother of all cock-ups)

Bring your reverb returns in through two spare channels and send it via the prefade monitor send you are (presumably) using for the foldback on stage.

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Website / Music Lab Machines / Blog

Unless I've misunderstood what you're saying, that's what I'm doing, albeit with one channel - but the reverb remains constant in the monitor regardless of the send level, e.g. if I take the send out altogether the reverb's still there.

Disconcerting when for example you ask for sax to be taken out of your monitor but the sax reverb is still in there - unless you can do without reverb altogether there's no way of getting rid of everyone else's reverb even if they're not in your monitor at all.

On the two stereo returns there's a stereo aux return to aux send knob - but this is only usable with external effects, or the FX output routed back into the return with a lead - and even then it still leaves the reverb in when you take out the monitor send...

Quote Raphbass:

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Unless I've misunderstood what you're saying, that's what I'm doing, albeit with one channel - but the reverb remains constant in the monitor regardless of the send level, e.g. if I take the send out altogether the reverb's still there.

Disconcerting when for example you ask for sax to be taken out of your monitor but the sax reverb is still in there - unless you can do without reverb altogether there's no way of getting rid of everyone else's reverb even if they're not in your monitor at all.

On the two stereo returns there's a stereo aux return to aux send knob - but this is only usable with external effects, or the FX output routed back into the return with a lead - and even then it still leaves the reverb in when you take out the monitor send...

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Ah yes (might have helped if I'd read the original question more thoroughly)

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Website / Music Lab Machines / Blog

Edited by hollowsun (19/08/11 11:58 PM)

I've thought about this before, and obviously if you have the spare channels AND outboard reverb units then that's a much better solution, but I always bring along my laptop and a small bus powered interface.

1. I use it to play music between band change overs.
2. If something goes horribly, drastically wrong with my desk, and it's only a small venue, I still have a way of getting a couple of channels out of the pa.

I've not been asked for reverb in monitors yet, but chances are, if I did, it would most likely be just the lead singer. Seeing as the interface would already be hooked up to a stereo chan on the desk, I could take a direct out from whatever he wanted reverb in (providing you have direct outs, if not a half way plugged jack in your insert), into my interface, run the least cpu intensive reverb I've got, hit the aux send on that stereo channel, and job done. I know it's not the most reliable method, but worst case scenario he/she loses reverb for one song if my mac crashed.

Just a thought for anyone who already runs an interface for music and such who is to cheap to buy even a really cheap reverb unit

Thanks for the idea but I think I'm not quite up for bringing a laptop - one important impediment is that I don't have one!

I think I just have to get a desk with internal FX-to-monitor sends. I've downloaded a few manuals for such desks and none mention anything about the reverb remaining constant in the monitor when you reduce a send level. I reckon I'll go for that Mackie.

Thanks for all the replies!

For FX-to-monitor sends, you'll still have the same problem of turning the sax aux (say) off completely, but still having the reverb in the monitor. It will work in exactly the same way. There isn't a separate FX engine dedicated to routing FX to auxes.

Ok so if the singer wants her own reverb in her monitor, that's fine but she'll get the sax's reverb as well whether she wants it or not, and whether she's even got the sax in her monitor or not!

I'm getting the hang of this...


Thanks for the replies.

Just push the DFA fader up

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PA Hire Surrey
Lighting Hire Surrey

Quote TSH-Tim:

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Just push the DFA fader up

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Lol



... only one problem - I'll need a spare channel for that

Quote TSH-Tim:

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Just push the DFA fader up

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I believe careless use of the DFA on that model might result in a UFO single digital response.

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Ohm's Law states, "Your PA isn't as powerful as you think it is".