Hi, we've been advised by the local council that the volume of our music is too loud sometimes, and we have to fit something to kill the amplifiers when the volume reaches a certain level at a specified distance.

We were told there are products that use a traffic light system- with a green light when all is fine, an orange light when the level is getting close to too loud, so the person behind the bar knows to back off the volume a bit, and a red light when the system is too loud and the power has been killed.

I don't know what these are called, let alone where to find one, can anyone help?

Thanks

The systems you mention generally cut all power to the stage, not just the PA, as a pub may just be running vocals through the PA and the issue could be an overally loud backline.

You will need to have such a device fitted professionally, I'd suggest speaking to a few local PA sellers/hire companies and see who they recommend.

I can't see it being cheap...

Hewesy

Formula Sound seem to be the main manufacturer in this field.

It may also help to get someone in who really knows about soundproofing to advise you on noise control. Many pubs seem to spend money on all sorts of ideas which simply don't work and the local councils aren't much good at giving decent practical advice.

James.

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JRP Music - Audio Mastering and Restoration.
http://www.jrpmusic.net

There's a selection of limiter devices here.

I've helped a client set one of the SL2000 units up and it seemed to work ok.

I would definitely recommend you get someone who knows exactly what they are doing to set it up with you though, during a level setting exercise with your Environmental Health Officer. An Acoustical Engineer should be able to help you - you can find one near you using this link or PM me for a quote.

Hope you get it all sorted, good luck!

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MacBook, Logic 8, headphones, too many ideas...
www.mankind-nil.co.uk

We have the Pulsar Blue Box Clicky in our rehearsal rooms, which we decided had the best display from the musicians point of view.

You always could just turn everything down. Be appropriate for the room. Use an SPL meter, have the musicians use a reasonable stage volume. Sliders let you adjust the level, or there would simply be on/off buttons.


Seems ridiculous, the solutions being looked into...

No, the recommendations are not ridiculous, the criteria set by the Local Authority can be very stringent. Where I'm based the criterion is inaudibility, so the noise levels have to be set very carefully, in order to get maximum level in the pub, and minimum level at the nearest residential premises.

The recommendations that have been made here are to protect the original posters' business from being shut down! This is serious business.

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MacBook, Logic 8, headphones, too many ideas...
www.mankind-nil.co.uk

Quote mankind-nil:

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Where I'm based the criterion is inaudibility, so the noise levels have to be set very carefully, in order to get maximum level in the pub, and minimum level at the nearest residential premises.

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Some gigs are run on the basis "how low can I have the volume while still being audible?". Others on "how loud can I go without neighbours calling the police?". I fear that bands with the second attitude (which, I accept, is appropriate to some sorts of music) will be constantly frustrated!

The controls to these limiting systems are generally locked inside a glass-fronted box. A slim blade can often be slipped in at the door-seal, and the cut-off knob manipulated. Not that I'd ever do that.

I conducted a school brass band at a local hall a few years ago. The drum-roll for the National Anthem triggered the "traffic lights" and we continued in darkness :-)

Quote skiddlybee:

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We were told there are products that use a traffic light system- with a green light when all is fine, an orange light when the level is getting close to too loud, so the person behind the bar knows to back off the volume a bit, and a red light when the system is too loud and the power has been killed.

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The vast majority of live bands simply won't play at these venues, we have a clause in our contract that ensures the venue make us aware of any such limiters; imagine cutting the power off on £20k worth of PA/musical equipment?

The traffic light system is very abrupt, from amber to red is normally 2 seconds so there's absolutely no opportunity to lower the volume. Add to that the fact that you'd need to have a live engineer present too, to monitor the volumes, and 99% of bands don't have one and 99% of venues won't pay for one either.

In reality, most people circumvent the limiter by using alternative non-stage-based power sockets, but this isn't practical either as the drain on a single socket can be massive and very dangerous too.

Quote TheChorltonWheelie:

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imagine cutting the power off on £20k worth of PA/musical equipment?

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OK, I'm imagining. It would suddenly go very quiet. What else?

I'd go with trying everything to soundproof windows etc before the limiter ( curtains over windows and rear doors etc,i imagine there will be suggestions from people who have experience in this field).In my experience most acts and staff try to bypass traffic lights by finding mains that is not connected as they are quite sensitive.I did a gig once in a fairly big social club and the applause from someone winning a line of bingo cut the power.

Certainly, this is good advice, to get as much sound proofing as possible sorted first. An Acoustical Engineer can help you with this as well as setting up the limter system (if necessary!).

I think that a limiter set off by clapping probably demonstrates a system not set up correctly! Many of the units offer a frequency bias - so you can them more sensitive to low frequencies, so that that kind of thing doesn't happen! You can also adjust the delay on many of these units - how soon the power is cut after going amber.

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MacBook, Logic 8, headphones, too many ideas...
www.mankind-nil.co.uk

What about house sound?

Either purchase a setup, or contract out a Soundguy with his own gear. That way he works for you, and you get to tell him how loud it can or can't be...

I wouldn't be too happy if everything went dark without warning, but then again, I I'm given a db limit, I can monitor it an stay under it...



I do have a UPS so my board and computer don't suddenly die on me...

Edited by robare99 (31/08/11 01:39 PM)

Quote Exalted Wombat:

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Quote TheChorltonWheelie:

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imagine cutting the power off on £20k worth of PA/musical equipment?

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OK, I'm imagining. It would suddenly go very quiet. What else?

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Well, possible damage is the main thing. It's not just when it turns off, its if it turns on and off again with enough speed to send power spikes through equipment. I won't play venues with these things in. A single snare hit generally shuts the system down, and that's without a PA. Pointless.

I'd get an acoustic engineer in and get him/her to seal up the venue and then get the noise police over again to re-test.

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www.exaviormusic.com
www.manninmusic.com Music Teacher, Isle of Man

Or


Book quieter bands. Duos, etc...

Quote robare99:

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Or


Book quieter bands. Duos, etc...

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You mean bands without drum kits, or bands without any acoustic instruments. In duo's, or bands that use backing tracks, whilst the music might be compressed you find that it's the oddest of frequencies/volumes that set the limiter off, but it will set the limiter off. The only benefit is that you can turn a duo down, but then the room can't hear them.

Quote robare99:

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I wouldn't be too happy if everything went dark without warning, but then again, I I'm given a db limit, I can monitor it an stay under it...

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In reality, you can't; the limit is at the monitoring device itself, which could be front of stage or back of house, so the db limit you'd have to work to would be considerably lower. The net result is almost always that the room can't hear the band properly, which makes for a pointless evening given that they've booked a live band.

Quite often the venue is hired by the individual, so when you have to turn down, or you have to keep resetting, the party itself is spoiled. If it's an event evening run by the club then it's slightly different, but you still end up with an audience that don't like your band through no fault of your own.

The db limits are arbitary too, some are set so low that a hand clap or one note in a song can set them off, some are set so that a frequency and not overall volume set them off - the theramin/poly solo in a Blondie track we did would always trigger the device even though the perceived volume is quite low.

Quote:

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In reality, you can't; the limit is at the monitoring device itself, which could be front of stage or back of house

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Not if the limiter is setup properly in the right location.

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The db limits are arbitary too, some are set so low that a hand clap or one note in a song can set them off, some are set so that a frequency and not overall volume set them off

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Not if the limiter is setup properly...

Obviously some of the limiters you've encountered haven't been.

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MacBook, Logic 8, headphones, too many ideas...
www.mankind-nil.co.uk

I don't know what else to say, except it doesn't sound like the venue is going to be a good place for live music.

Who sets the levels, and what are those levels?

I would argue this.

Pick a spot, and at this spot, it must be 98db (or whatever the limit is, I assume thats were the mic for the monitoring setup will be)


Run some music or pink noise through the PA up to that limit, at that spot.

While doing that, measure the sound level back at the mix position.

Use a sound meter during the show, and keep levels at or below the measured, recorded, and agreed upon level.


Other than that, I would personally refuse to do sound there, if it puts my gear at risk at all.




Thank goodness I live in a free country, not one filled with sound level Nazis. If a snare drum is too loud, then again, I guess live music isn't appropriate there. The bands must be on board and not blasting their 100W full stacks...


I feel for you, I really do.

Edited by robare99 (31/08/11 03:47 PM)

Quote mankind-nil:

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Quote:

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In reality, you can't; the limit is at the monitoring device itself, which could be front of stage or back of house

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Not if the limiter is setup properly in the right location.

Quote:

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The db limits are arbitary too, some are set so low that a hand clap or one note in a song can set them off, some are set so that a frequency and not overall volume set them off

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Not if the limiter is setup properly...

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The limiter is more often than not setup by the venue, and even then it's normally always a 3rd party company that has done the work; unless you're playing venues like the Robin/Brook/Limelight etc, the likelihood is that there'll be no one on-site to setup/adjust the limiter properly. Quite often the venue will gag the device, it's not in there interest to disrupt the evenings entertainment either.

Most of the holiday parks will have someone to hand to run FOH, or at least are able to adjust the limiter, but I'd say that about 80% of the venues we've played don't have access to the limiter.

There's a BIG venue in The Midlands that uses entirely Behringer for the processing/speaker/EQ management, it's a job to even adjust their EQ let alone instruct them how best to setup the limiter.

Quote robare99:

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Other than that, I would personally refuse to do sound there, if it puts my gear at risk at all.

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Most working bands have this in their contract, we do and I know most of the other bands I see on the circuit are the same. The issue is actually that it's the venue's responsibility to monitor the limiter, the bands themselves aren't generally allowed anywhere near the kit so there's nothing they can do.

In one of the tribute bands we have a diesel generator, which is normally used for outdoor venues, but quite often we've had to run it so that we can power our on-stage kit when we're playing indoors; when the limiter kicks in it only disrupts the stage lights, we're all powered by the generator.

I played in clubs and pubs that had been subjected to 'sound level control enforcement' over many years in the Manchester area.....it's a nightmare to deal with....the local Council usually puts an order on the venue after complaints from the local community and the venue has to comply or lose it's licence....from a performer's point of view the situation is grim....I played at a club in Horwich and one good rim shot off the drummer on the sound check racked up a maximum on the sound meter on the wall....sustained rim shots would have caused the mains to go off.....that's a problem in itself as a lot of today's gear is high tech and doesn't like mains failures....anyway I can't come up with an answer as historically for me volume ids part of the genre and the experience......sanitised low level sound doesn't cut it......so I'd just avoid anywhere that has sound monitoring or find a mains outlet that isn't on the system even if it means running a couple of Jo-Jos.....the future however looks poor for the run of the mill gigging musician as officialdom finally kills it all dead....

Quote valves4ever:

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... as officialdom finally kills it all dead....

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It's not really about 'officialdom', it's really about poorly managed venues that take the cheapest but least appropriate route to appearing to comply with perfectly reasonable legislation, and sometmes bands that refuse to accept that they really don't need to be that loud!

I too hate the crude taffic-light system power cut-off systems. Most are poorly designed and employ inappropriate techniques to assess volume in the room, and are further compromised frequently by inappropriate placement and calibration...

There are better ways of encouraging bands to perform at reasonable levels, and of controlling the sound that would otherwise escape the building to anoy the neighbours. Sadly, they are also all more expensive and more involved.

hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

I agree sort of with what your saying Hugh but in my experience of 'real world gigging' the management of venues whether bad/ok or wonderful is beyond the remit of the band.....we're just stuck with whatever it is when you get to the gig. On volume...I agree that bands can and do sometimes play far too loudly but the clubs/pubs/hotels that I have worked that use sound monitoring have the levels set too low.....one hotel in Manchester on a New Year's Eve gig was approaching cut off just from the ambient noise of the crowd before we started playing and we had to get above the crowd otherwise we would have been inaudible. I don't see any owner/manager spending loads of cash on this subject in the current financial climate or in the future either....for most gigging musicians at the bottom end of the market...and let's be honest that's the majority....we're going to have to cope with the situation as best we can....and knowing Brussels (Officialdom in my world) the problem is only going to get worse.....fortunately for myself at the age of 64 at the end of a 53 year playing career it doesn't matter as I have now retired!....

Wow! It looks like I've started a real discussion, thank you all so much for your advice, I think I'll be getting a pro in to have a look at what our best move is

Thanks again!

Unfortunately Valves4ever is right.I have gigged all round the north west for over 30 years and have faced these lights every so often sometimes in duos with backing tracks.I have only ever gigged with 1 that was set up reasonably.All that happens is you can't get into the show cos there's no life in the sound and you spend the night looking into the lights keeping check.

Quick aside....once saw the Liverpool Philharmonic at the Victoria Hall in Bolton doing Tannhauser and they were deafening in parts.....no cut off as they were all acoustic....and no complaints from the Council of course as they were 'proper' musicians playing 'serious' music.....

Edited by valves4ever (01/09/11 10:01 AM)

I wonder if there is a market for a few 'extensions' to the traffic-light system e.g.:
a) All brass players must wear a collar around their neck which automatically tighten on a 'red-light' condition to throttle them.
b) All drummers must use a special drum stool with a built in spike which raises up through the seat on a red-light condition, or optionally they must use special 'electric' drumsticks which zap 200V through them if they get too loud.

Seriously, I've only ever played under the traffic light system once, in Canterbury. Apparently unless a dispensation was applied for (it wasn't), then the default setting was very low. I managed to trip the system out during a solo, and the rest of the time we each had one eye on the lights. Not good for performance. I wouldn't mind - there are obviously good intentions for ensuring a quiet, tolerent neighbourhood and/or an audience with healthy hearing, but if everything is inconsistent... maybe the likes of the MU should lobby for consitent installations?

A mate of mine (who is the sometime drummer on some of my projects) lives in a town centre, more or less between a restaurant and a club. Both do live music, the club does a lot of live music - In fact my drummer friend and I have played there.

He has no problems with the club. The owner employed the services of an acoustic consultant when they fitted the venue out, it has double sets of doors separated by vestibules, front and back, soundproofing in the walls and ceilings, etc. He also monitors his own external levels periodically, and importantly engages with his neighbours regularly gauging feedback on their perception of the noise they experience. Having played there I can say that the house system is more than just loud.

The restaurant is another matter, the live acts are not full band type acts, or are DJs, and almost certainly the levels in the place are probably not that high, but they regularly prop open the doors so people can spill out and smoke, and it's just annoying if you are sat at my friends house. Most others in the neighbourhood think so too, and so do the council since the restaurant is now under a noise abatement order. It should be said that the owner of this venue doesn't seem to give a rats arse about the neighbours.

I suspect the latter sort of venue are the ones that are forced/encouraged to get the traffic light cut-off systems.

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New album 'Fantasy Bridge' available now!
Making of Fantasy Bridge Diary

>It's not really about 'officialdom', it's really about poorly managed venues that take the cheapest but least appropriate route to appearing to comply with perfectly reasonable legislation

I'd call it poor officialdom when no account is taken of what happens in the real world.

Quote Scramble:

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I'd call it poor officialdom when no account is taken of what happens in the real world.

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Having lived with noise problems when a well run venue was taken over by bad management I'd certainly say that officialdom isn't the problem. There are too many venue owners/managers who see live music as a way to indulge in their own private passion (or simply make some money) without understanding that not everyone in their neighbourhood will share their taste in music.

Most well run venues don't have licence problems. Sadly, there are still too many badly run venues.

James.

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JRP Music - Audio Mastering and Restoration.
http://www.jrpmusic.net

>Sadly, there are still too many badly run venues.

In other words, the legislation and the officials have not done a very good job in the real world, while still managing to cause a lot of problems for musicians.

Once rented a village hall for a band practise (without PA), and we didn't realise they had one of these installed. We're definitely not a loud band - two 60W guitar amps, 100W bass amp, drumkit and vocal monitors, in a 4-badminton-court-sized hall. We took out the limiter on the first chord. Friggin' joy.

To the original poster: it sounds like you're talking about just playing CDs, not live music? In which case, your bar is probably not at all soundproofed, and you're basically not geared up for this at all. Best answer is to crank up the input source full, then turn the amps down until they're as loud as permitted, and then tape over the amp controls.

Quote Exalted Wombat:

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I conducted a school brass band at a local hall a few years ago. The drum-roll for the National Anthem triggered the "traffic lights" and we continued in darkness :-)

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Great stuff!

The principle is a good one but I think it occasionally gets used as revenge against musicians, and/or one step in the banning of live music altogether by people who can't stand someone else having a good time. The mentality seems to be "someone once played too loud here so we'll punish every musician that comes through the door for all eternity". Venues that have the limiter set so tight that a whoop from a punter shuts down the band shouldn't really have music at all as it's pointless trying to play under those conditions.

One gig I remember the power went off five or six times in every song, and before the assumption is made that we were very loud - the power also went off a few times between songs when we weren't even playing but the punters were clapping a bit. Rather than cause misery by pretending it's a music venue it would be more honest to admit they simply can't have live music there at all, and we'd just take another gig instead. When the band is quieter than the punters but the power still gets cut, one wonders whether the next step is to stop people breathing cos it might disturb someone.

Soundproofing is the way to go, yes it's more expensive than a gizmo that cuts the mains, but it keeps the music worthwhile. Or, as mentioned above, get the limiter set up properly so that it only limits the bands that play at levels that burn the hair off yer balls. In practice limiters seem to be a revenge on all for the crimes of a few.

Thank goodness we dont see these things often here in Australia. If I did I would use a huge UPS to power the gear, and make sure I have a genny handy. To the outside observer the UK looks massively overregulated.

very interesting post and responses....

all these limiters must be a relatively new phenomenon, i don't recall ever encountering them back in the days when i'd go check out bands at bars. what a drag, but i can understand the neighbors point of view as well. sigh.

anyway, i just wanted to stress the importance of getting professionals to do any soundproofing if that's the route your local chooses to go. there have been a couple of HORRIFIC club fires in the states in the last ten years due to ignition of amateur soundproofing - the worst was in rhode island, where white snake's pyros set the stuff used on fire and almost a hundred died, plus some truly awful injuries of the survivors. the white snake mgr, the club owners, all went to prison for manslaughter.

it's definitely worth the money to do these things right.

worst case, i'd bring a CDR of a rehearsal gig to the pub and use it to set the levels of the amps.

cheers,

d

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"Patsy had the drug tolerance of Keith Richards and the moral rectitude of Brian Jones." - Dr. Walter Bishop, "Fringe"

Quote dubbmann:

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all these limiters must be a relatively new phenomenon

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They've been around ever since I started gigging, late 80's, and they're installed in probably 40%-50% of the venues we play in. In venues that don't have them we're regularly told to turn down, even though the volume isn't what you call deafening.

Quote dubbmann:

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worst case, i'd bring a CDR of a rehearsal gig to the pub and use it to set the levels of the amps.

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That's unlikely to work, the dynamic difference between a recorded bass kick (even if it's untreated) and live bass kick (played at the same level as the aforementioned recorded item) is considerable. I've noticed this on the click tracks I've written for various bands, even though the level is identical on the live/recorded version the live instrument will regularly set the limiters off.

I am a noise consultant, and if you have a noise issue my advice would be to foster a good relationship with your local Environmental Health Officer. Many venue owners regard their EHO as unwelcome and interfering, generally try and avoid having any contact with them whatsoever.

Be friendly and engaged with your local EHO. Invite them to a gig, involve them with your decision making process about how you are trying to deal with the noise issue, and demonstrate that you are being proactive.

Their remit is to balance the needs of local businesses with the environmental impacts, so if your gigs are an important of your business then they are a factor in the local economy. Explain the economic value of the gigs, and the implications of not having them.

If you foster a good relationship with them, and demonstrate you are at least trying to be proactive they will then be lot less likely to serve you with noise abatement notices if your neighbours complain about noise.

As this thread shows, the solution suggest by your EHO (e.g. traffic light limiting systems) are controversial, not welcomed by musicians, and sometimes do not relate closely to the noise level experienced by your neighbours. Your building fabric will probably filter out much of the mid – high frequency noise that the limiting system ‘hears’ – most noise problems from music venues tend to be only about relatively low frequency noise.

Perhaps during a gig you could both stand outside your neighbours house with a sound level meter and agree on a reasonable level for future gigs. Buy a basic sound level meter and you will be able to monitor this yourself.

I have to say that although Chump seems to be a reasonable sort of person not all EHOs are the same.

To my mind the problem with EH generally is that there are no hard and fast rules and it is left to local authorities to interpret what rules there are to their own satisfaction. So you get some LAs who are willing to work with venues (and factories etc.) and their neighbours to come to a mutually satisfactory solution to problems; and others who just wield the big stick at the 'offender' without doing any further investigation.

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