Amongst the many topics that will be discussed at the Live UK Summit, the future of UK ticketing is high on the agenda.

We predict that the subject of ticket resales shall be a hot topic, as an article on Guardian Online revealed that the UK European Consumer Centre (UKECC) have seen a rise in complaints and enquiries, relating to ticket problems within the “recreational and cultural services.”

Secondary ticket selling is clearly big business, as market leaders Viagogo and Seatwave are set to raise their game with the arrival of new eBay owned website Stubhub.

Live UK Summit producer Steve Parker said “Stubhub’s arrival, if it happens, will significantly increase activity in the resale sector, especially in the battle for hearts and minds, and general endorsement of the concept. And that will definitely upset a lot of people.”

A campaign for regulation of secondary ticket services is already underway, headed by Sharon Hodgson MP and Iron Maiden manager Rod Smallwood, the campaign aims to bring in a legal cap on the amount a reseller can charge per ticket.

Although this may be possible with websites like Seatwave, there is still a war to be won with the people nicknamed as “ticket scalpers”.

A “ticket scalper” is a person who buys tickets to popular events with the intention of reselling them, often at an inflated price.

It is hard to monitor the practise of personal ticket scalper as many operate through sites like eBay or fake sites set up to look official and involved with the said festival.

Wikifestivals Managing Director Cynthia Franklin says “It’s very possible to monitor online ticket scalping as sites like eBay could impose restrictions where users wishing to sell event tickets can only do it through their newly owned Stubhub site.”

“The main problem is offline where touts will wait outside the event itself or around the box offices with their purchased ticket, waiting until the sold out sign rises to strike.”

“Despite wide knowledge of the horror stories that happen with touts and ticket scalpers, many people still choose to risk it out of desperation, out of ticket companies hands this is a practise that has gone on for years and probably continue.”

“Having said that I have a feeling this Summit will reveal a plan to encourage more music and event fans who are not aware or perhaps aren’t really sure of websites like ViaGoGo and Seatwave to use them, I hope Sharon Hodgson and Rod Smallwood win their campaign, as I believe this will draw more people away from touts and onto safer reselling communities.”

The Live UK Summit is set to take place in Radisson Blu Portman Hotel in London on 5-6 October.

The other thing that needs discussion, and proposals for remedies, is venues, especially first class venues entering into agreements to require ticket sales to be handled through a given ticket vendor, rather than that decision being the perogative of the acts. Here in the US we have such a situation with the ticket vendor either, depending on your point of view, raising ticket prices by as much as 50% over face value for fans, or trousering up to a third of acts potential receipts (i.e. the ticket fees can be as much as 50% of the face value of tickets).

On the flipside, suppose I've bought a pair of tickets and then can't make it for some reason. Why should I be prevented from selling them to someone else? I bought them, they're mine to do whatever I like with. A few years back I got to see Mark Knopfler via tickets off eBay from someone in just this situation. Sale price was a couple of quid *under* the face value, bcos although Mark Knopfler is popular, he's not Justin-Bieber-popular. So I got to go to the gig, and the bloke who sold them got almost all his money back.

TBH, I don't see the problem. Suppose someone speculates that they can sell tickets for more than list price, so they buy a load and try reselling them. If they're good at their job, they'll make a profit. If not, they'll take a hit on tickets left unsold. That's capitalism, folks!

And if the resellers are making a massive profit... do the artists not consider that perhaps they're pricing their tickets too low? If your fans are prepared to pay £150 for a seat, and your machine is selling that seat for £30, then you need to be beating your manager with a big stick.

This feels so much like the whole free download sense of entitlement. I HAVE A RIGHT TO CHEAP TICKETS!!! PROTECT ME FROM THE TOUTS!!! WAAAHHH!!! Sorry folks, the only right you have is to sing the blues - you don't have a right to cheap tickets to listen to someone else sing.

Perhaps venues themselves could me more proactive about helping to pass on unwanted tickets? I've got tickets for a comedy show that I know I can't make, and would love to sell them on; even at under face value - but the venue aren't interested and I don't have an e-bay account.

--------------------
Gear List: reverse only.

Quote grab:

---

And if the resellers are making a massive profit... do the artists not consider that perhaps they're pricing their tickets too low? If your fans are prepared to pay £150 for a seat, and your machine is selling that seat for £30, then you need to be beating your manager with a big stick.

This feels so much like the whole free download sense of entitlement. I HAVE A RIGHT TO CHEAP TICKETS!!! PROTECT ME FROM THE TOUTS!!! WAAAHHH!!! Sorry folks, the only right you have is to sing the blues - you don't have a right to cheap tickets to listen to someone else sing.

---

Exactly. The fact that touts can buy up tickets and sell them an inflated prices shows they were not priced to meet demand in the first place.

If you change your mind about going to a show you should have a right to sell your ticket if you want.

Really don't understand all the fuss about this.

Hmm. Imagine what would happen if food producers took that view.

I dread to think what the wider ranging consequences of making live shows an elitist thing exlusively for those on high incomes will be for this already struggling industry and I'm amazed anyone here would be so willing to support it.

--------------------
http://www.partyfearsthree.co.uk

I think you should be able to return it to the venue for face value if there is sufficient demand, not sure how that would work in practice though. I think the argument that it's just capitalism is over simplified. For concerts certain to sell out, ticket touts are purely economic leeches, buying and selling a product for profit without adding any value and without risk. It's basically an arbitrage situation, persistent arbitrage opportunities being bad things for a market - if my limited 'cast-your-mind-back' recollection of economic maths is accurate

Quote:

---

Imagine what would happen if food producers took that view.

---

Erm, reality check time. They do.

Try walking into a Michelin-starred restaurant and insisting on paying Mickey Ds prices. Yeah, that's going to work.

Even in the supermarkets, have you not noticed that soft fruit are cheaper in the summer? There's more around, it's easier to get hold of, prices go down. It gets to winter, it's harder to get hold of strawberries (say), so prices go up even though what you get is not as good. But if your kid says she really wants a strawberry pavlova for her birthday party in February, you'll happily spend a fiver on strawberries that'd cost you two quid in August.

You've maybe missed that in the West we're in the pleasant position of having more food than we can use, a well-connected supply chain, and loadsamoney to ferry luxuries through the supply chain (like strawberries in February). We are LIVING in a food environment of elitism for high incomes. Check with the Eritrians and Somalis about what supply-and-demand does to the price of food when crops fail - you can be damn sure they aren't nipping down to Tescos for a punnet of strawberries, and that they're paying a whole lot more more (relative to their incomes) than you for bread.

You're also generalising to ALL live shows being expensive, which is something I never said. I wouldn't expect people to pay more than the price of a couple of pints to see my band play. Should Kylie and Lady Gaga also be limited to charging a fiver on the door for a massive arena show?

Assuming you agree that it's reasonable they charge more (and if you don't, WTF?!) then you're actually agreeing with me that acts should charge based on how in-demand they are and on the size/quality of gig. Thank you. Now all you're quibbling about is how much more it should be. And that's something that frankly is no-one's call but the artists and their agents. You can buy tickets or not buy tickets, and that's your choice, but you have no right to tell the artists to drop their prices or ask the government to intervene.

To go back to food, do you call your MP because Tescos are charging a fiver for strawberries in February...?

Quote grab:

---

Try walking into a Michelin-starred restaurant and insisting on paying Mickey Ds prices. Yeah, that's going to work.

---

Do they do the cooking for free?

I'm simply responding to the general point that people *seem* to be advocating that if artists can get away with charging the highest price that the market can possibly bear then that is going to be a good thing.

The food analogy may not be an ideal one, admittedly made in haste without any attempt to research the subject in depth.

But I am certainly not suggesting that the likes of Kylie et al should be selling tickets at a fiver or running shows at a loss.

I do genuinely think that if it becomes the accepted norm for acts to start deliberately pricing out ordinary music fans the instant they can sell tickets in sufficient qauntities only to the well heeled who can afford stratospheric prices and effectively stick two fingers at the fans who supported them on the way up - that's going to finish off what remains of the music industry as we know even quicker than the current custodians of it are managing, and those of us trying to make headway at the lower levels might as well all give up.

What I think/hope is actually happening is that most artists are still generally trying to price their shows in such as way as to develop and sustain an audience over the longer term, and it should be their right to do so. If practices such as touting or the anti-competitive venue/ticket seller arrangments mentioned above are effectively preventing artists from controlling this important aspect of their business then I support any reasonable measures to prevent it from happening.

--------------------
http://www.partyfearsthree.co.uk

Two issues here.

Firstly, people are going to charge as much as they can get away with and artists (royalties declining due to downloading) will be leading the charge. Look at soccer in the UK. It used to be a bunch of working men in flat caps standing on the terraces... and hardly any games sold out despite it being as cheap as chips. Now, if you haven't got an overpriced season ticket months in advance, don't bother turning up. But you'll get a better, more professionalised experienced if you do.

So ticket prices are going to start off as high as the market will bear.

Secondly, what to do about the secondary market in tickets. I have a lot of sympathy for the idea of tickets being transferable: people buy months in advance. They might become ill, or some job requirement gets in the way, or whatever. Why try to prevent them reselling?

Once you've crossed that Rubicon, why prevent them charging whatever someone is willing to pay? Do we really need some nanny state legislation to "save" us from ourselves? Why is that not an illegal restraint of trade? Why not also legislate that no guitar or vintage synth should ever be sold at more than the original cost price?

Attempts to buck the market are usually doomed to failure.

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...

Quote Steve A:

---

I'm simply responding to the general point that people *seem* to be advocating that if artists can get away with charging the highest price that the market can possibly bear then that is going to be a good thing.

The food analogy may not be an ideal one, admittedly made in haste without any attempt to research the subject in depth.

---

No, it makes no sense whatseover. You can resell food if you want and food is determined by supply and demand like most things are.

Quote:

---

But I am certainly not suggesting that the likes of Kylie et al should be selling tickets at a fiver or running shows at a loss.

I do genuinely think that if it becomes the accepted norm for acts to start deliberately pricing out ordinary music fans the instant they can sell tickets in sufficient qauntities only to the well heeled who can afford stratospheric prices and effectively stick two fingers at the fans who supported them on the way up - that's going to finish off what remains of the music industry as we know even quicker than the current custodians of it are managing, and those of us trying to make headway at the lower levels might as well all give up.

---

If the demand is there, then the music industry is doing just fine. Why should the music industry be giving ticket touts an income by incorrectly pricing their shows?

Quote:

---

What I think/hope is actually happening is that most artists are still generally trying to price their shows in such as way as to develop and sustain an audience over the longer term, and it should be their right to do so. If practices such as touting or the anti-competitive venue/ticket seller arrangments mentioned above are effectively preventing artists from controlling this important aspect of their business then I support any reasonable measures to prevent it from happening.

---

If you underprice something in relation to its demand, then demand will outstrip supply. Therefore another mechanism to allocate demand becomes active, such as luck or first-come-first-served. Touts prevent this from happening by purchasing unvalued tickets and selling them at their correct market price, earning them an income in the process. This is arbitrage, as the poster above mentions.

Quote:

---

if it becomes the accepted norm for acts to start deliberately pricing out ordinary music fans the instant they can sell tickets in sufficient qauntities only to the well heeled who can afford stratospheric prices and effectively stick two fingers at the fans who supported them on the way up

---

Define "ordinary music fan".

I can head into town and be pretty much guaranteed to find a reasonable band somewhere, for no more than the cost of a couple of pints. It'll be a good night, but unlikely to be a major event. It may still be out of reach of some people who can't afford even that price, though, even though they may be music fans. And equally a lot of people there may just be there on spec, or be there for the booze and not the band - they might enjoy it, but you can't exactly call them fans.

Or I can go to a concert from some major artist, and experience something that I'm likely to remember for the rest of my life. It may be that artist's only performance in my country for the next few years, or maybe their last gig ever. Half the country wants to get to the gig, and those that get to see it will be talking about it for days on end. What price do you put on that? If you're really a fan, would you give up the price of a packet of cigs? a new pair of jeans? a meal out? a weekend away? a week's holiday? your next car? I promise you there are hardcore fans who'd go that far. And if they're that enthusiastic, why should you exclude them from getting the tickets they want so badly, and instead allocate tickets on a lottery basis to people whose only support of the band so far is a couple of quid on iTunes?

Also, define "well heeled". Do your gigs have to be affordable for a single parent on welfare who loves the band but has hardly enough money for food and clothes...?

Never mind the re-sellers, the initial sellers are a right old rip off in the first place. Admin fees, booking fees...
makes my blood boil! Especially when it is charged 'per ticket' regardless of how many you purchase in one transaction.



The ticket should be sold at a face value which includes the retail seller's markup and costs with no add ons. Simple.

Put me off buying any tickets for big time events.

--------------------

Sorry guys, but I'm afraid I just don't agree with the premise that because somebody can take a ticket and sell it for more than face value, it was automatically underpriced.

I understand that if you judge the scenario purely though the prism of ecomonic theory then of course you can justifiably reach that conclusion. You misunderstand me if you think that I'm trying to argue against that.

All I'm saying is that - in my opinion - music is, always has been, and must continue to be, about more than that. Yes, economics apply and will always be a significant factor - but not one that operates entirely independant of other concerns or factors.

I salute artists who keep their shows at realistic price levels so that the widest range of people have the opportunity to go. I think that's hugely important to the ongoing health of the industry. And I think it's wrong that touts are able to influence that. I think it is the wrong approach to price touts out of their business by raising ticket prices to the hilt, because it also prices a lot of music fans out too. I would be very concerned about the long term consequences of that approach, however justifiable it is in economic terms, for music in general.

I seem to have inadvertently made heavy weather of it, but that is all I was trying to say.

--------------------
http://www.partyfearsthree.co.uk

Quote Steve A:

---

All I'm saying is that - in my opinion - music is, always has been, and must continue to be, about more than that. Yes, economics apply and will always be a significant factor - but not one that operates entirely independant of other concerns or factors.

---

Blimey, you want to try getting tickets for the Vienna State Opera or La Scala Milan.

Seriously, your position is unreal.

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...

Does anyone know what percentage of tickets (on average) are snapped up by touts before the real punters get a chance?

With no regulation at all it could become impossible get a ticket at face value.

--------------------
It wasn't me!
(Well, actually, it probably was)

People are paying £thousands for tickets , which after the event everything is being demolished to make way for housing . The Olympic board wins twice ; sale of tickets and a percentage of the housing costs .

Spam links removed

Edited by Hugh Robjohns (30/09/11 08:31 AM)

Quote Folderol:

---

Does anyone know what percentage of tickets (on average) are snapped up by touts before the real punters get a chance?

With no regulation at all it could become impossible get a ticket at face value.

---

Not sure about the percentage; but I can remember seeing tickets for gigs at the venue where I used to work going up on e-bay with a markup before the show had even sold out.

--------------------
Gear List: reverse only.

If artists want to put on what are effectively benefit gigs, then more power to them, for sure. It's not a way to make a living though.

The big problem with your argument is that you're confusing up "opportunity to see live music" with "opportunity to see specific artist".

There's plenty of live music around - like I said, in Cambridge you can find a decent band somewhere pretty much any night for next to nothing. And just about any town anywhere, you should find something on a Friday/Saturday night. Many will be very very good indeed - just not going pro bcos there's no money in it for them, or took a few years out to try and make a go of it but couldn't and now are just doing it semi-pro. I'm sure most of us know people playing for fun who could blow the socks off half the pop-tart wannabees. Maybe you don't get the big stage show, but is that an essential part of live music? For me at least, if the music's crap then an army of semi-naked backing dancers won't rescue the gig.

For music in general, there is only one big problem, and that is getting people out of the house on a Friday/Saturday night. The perception (which I'm afraid you're somewhat repeating) that it's only worth going out for big "event" gigs will stop the grass-roots support which is how genuine bands get going. If they'd all rather sit on their fat arses and watch X-Factor, that is what will kill live music stone dead.

Quote Steve Hill:

---

Quote Steve A:

---

All I'm saying is that - in my opinion - music is, always has been, and must continue to be, about more than that. Yes, economics apply and will always be a significant factor - but not one that operates entirely independant of other concerns or factors.

---

Blimey, you want to try getting tickets for the Vienna State Opera or La Scala Milan.

Seriously, your position is unreal.

---

Agreed. Why should tickets be allocated on the basis of who is lucky enough to get through on the telephone instead of price? Like other posters have mentioned, there are plenty of free live music shows to go to every day of the week. If you want to see a huge big star with a massive expensive show, then demand should be priced to meet supply.

Touts are only exploiting bad management, which is a perfectly legitimate thing to do, but the practice should be stopped by pricing tickets correctly. The idea of creating laws against the resale of tickets is ridiculous. Is having a cheap ticket to see Prince at the 02 a human right now?

How would allowing the market demand to decide ticket price work in practice?

Would it be a case of starting them off at a high price, then reduce the price if it got near the date of the concert and they hadn't sold out?

That would mean early purchasers might get stung?

Interesting....

Actually, this is exactly how it works in the holiday industry isn't it? If you take the risk and book later you often get a bargain, as unsold products are reduced/dumped.

--------------------

Or like train/plane tickets, if it gets closer to the date and lots of people *really* want to go there, the price goes right up.

I also think there are two things here:

First are exploitative practices by touts, who buy up tickets and then flog them at inflated prices. This is probably in no one's interest but the touts.

Secondly there is the issue of secondary ticketing. It strikes me that the (monopolistic practices of the) big live music players are lobbying heavily to try and destroy secondary ticketing. Already the (monopolistic practices of the) big live music players go practically unregulated - surely there are massive conflicts of of interest if you are promoter, agent, venue owner and maybe label etc. as well - and it is certainly not fair to consumers if ordinary ticket purchasers are not allowed to sell on tickets they have legitimately purchased.

My point is that "touting" is rather clouding the real issue here which is the control and power of Live Nation over live music in the known universe.

Quote MC Deli:

---

First are exploitative practices by touts, who buy up tickets and then flog them at inflated prices. This is probably in no one's interest but the touts.

---

I'm not so sure. It's a free market. If the purchaser is happy to pay that price to see the show, then he's - er - happy, is he not?

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...

Quote:

---

This is probably in no one's interest but the touts.

---

And people who really, really want to see the show...

Just bcos the touts offer tickets for sale at that price, it doesn't mean you have to buy them.

A local holiday tour operator offers tickets for ticketmaster shows/concerts at face value. They're only allowed to sell tickets as part of a tour, so there's a mark up for the coach, admin etc. from which they generate a profit, which is fair enough. However, unless the coach is more than 80% full the trip runs at a loss, so they can actually end up in the position whereby it's cheaper to put concert tickets in the bin than it is to sell them! I presume this is why you sometimes see blocks of empty seats at sold-out concerts!

--------------------
Not much in life worth running for. Or from.