I love my LP but wish I could have the flexibility of a tremolo arm...

The one I've seen is the Epiphone Pro/Fx which comes with a Floyd Rose
http://www.epiphone.com/default.asp?ProductID=332&CollectionID=6http://www.epiphone.com/news.asp?NewsID=1804

It appears to be Epiphone's version of the Les Paul Axcess - I'm seriously tempted but I worry that the locking trem will significantly affect the sound...

Whilst very much aware that the sound of an LP comes from the mahogany / maple body, the set neck and the 24.75 inch scale - I wonder is there a trem equipped guitar that comes close to that lovely fat LP sound...?

Regards
Jay

Neil young has a bigsby on his LP - say no more. I can't remember who said it but "tone is all about pick ups and strings, everything else is just bells and whistles". In the main I have to agree apart from the effect of technique and talent.

1) of course it affects the tone..... by virtue of changing the way the string vibration interfaces with the body.


2) check out Kahler....

http://www.wammiworld.com/


they do one that will essentially drop on to the bridge/tail piece mountings.....

Well a Bigsby ain't a trem, as such. Not as I understand it. Very similar I agree, and far more appropriate for a Les Paul. That's why I keep my Duo Jet. Which is not a Les Paul and is chambered, and has TV Jones Classics. But it loves its Bigsby. So do I.

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Strictly project and just for fun

Quote Off duty BBQ lighter AKA Idris:

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1) of course it affects the tone..... by virtue of changing the way the string vibration interfaces with the body.


2) check out Kahler....

http://www.wammiworld.com/


they do one that will essentially drop on to the bridge/tail piece mountings.....

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Re 1: agreed, of course it does, from 1st principle.

Re 2: Yep, and the Kahler is one of my favourites too. I have a flat mount version on my 1984 Manson Flying V, and I have a stud mount version in the parts bin ready for an unfinished project. So I can add a BIG proviso from experience. Yes, it is genuinely stud mounting, BUT (and notice it is a big but), you still have to make a rout in the body to accommodate the cam and spring. It's not something you can fit and remove without trace if you change your mind. And you might have to remove the old bridge and tailpiece bushings and replace them with the ones supplied with the Kahler.

The Bigsby can be used, but will leave screw holes to be filled if it is removed.

Two other options that can be fitted and removed without trace come to mind. For light to moderate use like a Bigsby you should look at the Bowen Handle. For something that will handle heavier use, like a well set-up Strat trem, you can look at the Stetsbar. But neither compare to a Kahler or Floyd Rose when it comes to extreme trem abuse.

The Bowen Handle is the least invasive and preserves the Les Paul sound best, the big assembly replacing the tailpiece on the Stetsbar has a little more effect on the tone. But it is a good, solid, assembly.

Andy

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When the going gets weird, the Weird turn Pro.

Thanks guys - I'm leaning towards the stetsbar, since it will involve no modification of the guitar. One question though - the LP does not really have a headstock that allows 'straight string pull' - will that affect tuning stability significantly?

Coming back to the Epiphone floyd, if a the locking trem will affect the tone, will a change of pickups help to offset this effect (since the guitar is still fundamentally a Les Paul). I've heard that for instance the Dimarzio Tone Zone / Air Norton combination is designed to add bass and thus offset the bass sucking effect of a locking tremolo...

Regards
Jay

The Bowen Handle looks like a good option.

Do you know it they are available in the UK?


Martin

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http://www.myspace.com/cottonsalamander

Quote Jay Menon:

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I wonder is there a trem equipped guitar that comes close to that lovely fat LP sound...?

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Yes, this: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/GIBSON-LES-PAUL-BFG-Tremolo-/290613388942?pt=UK_ Musical_Instruments_Guitars_CV&hash=item43a9e8668e

I have a Fender Big Apple strat, twin humbucker, and that's the same kind of sound as my Les Paul. There's a lot of nonsense about LP's and humbuckers, that being the only combination able to get 'that' rock sound, as I've found plenty of other guitars that can make the same kind of racket.

god that's tempting TCW... really...... oooohhhhh......

Quote Off duty BBQ lighter AKA Idris:

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god that's tempting TCW... really...... oooohhhhh......

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I have a BFG, and I have the same Kahler trem on order as, and as you've pointed out, it drops straight onto the existing posts. It'll be easy enough to revert it back to standard if there's a detrimental effect on the sound.

Lifeson Signature LP

+1 to the BFG. I've been tempted by one for a long time

OK... so far no luck finding a UK distributor for the Bowen Handle. Although there might be a few on ebay 2nd hand. But whilst searching I came across this option that I had forgotten...

The Schaller Les Paul Trem which is a replacement bridge assembly and involves no body mods. Most UK guitar shops should have no problem ordering one as Schaller have excellent distribution. Like the Bowen Handle it is best for light use.

And that reminds me, the Schaller pick-ups are much underrated too.

Jay... don't worry about the string pull, it's a bit of a red herring. The straight string pull is only straight when you look at it from above, it still has to go at an angle over the nut. As long as your nut slots are properly cut and smoothly finished you should have no problem. But if you are especially concerned you can cut a replacement nut with the slots pointing towards the tuners rather than parallel. That will give you a single break angle which is effectively the same as the straight pull. But it really shouldn't be necessary.

Personally, I wouldn't change the pick-ups to compensate for the trem on the Epiphone. Increased bass response MIGHT compensate for the tone change, but it could make the guitar sound worse. Wait until there is a problem before trying to fix it.

Andy

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When the going gets weird, the Weird turn Pro.

Hagstrom Swede/SuperSwede Tremar?

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http://soundcloud.com/earwighoney

The fixed bridge is a big part of the sound of those guitars. If you mess about with that you will affect it. It might not be necessarily bad, but it will change. It really depends on what sort of player you are. The way the guitar 'attacks' will alter. Whatever you do, don't drill or cut holes into the body. You'll kill the value of the instrument and you wont be able to reverse the work. Ask yourself if this is really worth doing...Might it be better to put the cost towards savings for an additional instrument that will do what you want without having to make changes?

J

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www.jackruston.com

A vibrato, to be accurate, will affect tone but only slightly compared with the effects I mentioned earlier. Clapton plays hard tail, gilmour has whammy, both glide from one note to another quite seamlessly, both sound like they are playing strats. I have to agree with the point that adding a whammy could lower the value of your guitar. Therefore, you can justify to yourself and more importantly, to your other half, that the most prudent and cost effective solution, will be to buy a new guitar all ready fitted with desired wobbly bridge.

Try one of these ESP Eclipse guitars ( I own a regular non-trem version myself)

Eclipse with trem

Quote russ123:

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A vibrato, to be accurate, will affect tone but only slightly compared with the effects I mentioned earlier. Clapton plays hard tail, gilmour has whammy, both glide from one note to another quite seamlessly, both sound like they are playing strats. I have to agree with the point that adding a whammy could lower the value of your guitar. Therefore, you can justify to yourself and more importantly, to your other half, that the most prudent and cost effective solution, will be to buy a new guitar all ready fitted with desired wobbly bridge.

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And it is almost as important for your better half to understand that as there are over 70 open tunings, and each needs a guitar dedicated to it, you need to buy another 70 guitars for those as well as the LP with the trem... Just a thought.

To be honest I tried that on my wife and it didn't work, but best of luck to y'all!!!

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Strictly project and just for fun

Quote russ123:

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Clapton plays hard tail, gilmour has whammy

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Actually, Clapton plays a strat with the trem blocked off, not a hard tail. He could easily have a hard tail strat, but prefers a trem version because it sounds different even with a blocked trem.

The point being, it really is far more than just pick-ups and strings. And as you quoted that in the context of Neil Young and Old Black you might want to look at the lengths he has gone to to get a back-up that sounds the same, but failed. This link pulls together a lot of interviews with Neil and detailed articles on the subject.

Of course the pick-ups only convert the string vibrations to AC current. But the woods and construction significantly modify the way the string vibrates. And that's how you can hear the difference they make.

Andy

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When the going gets weird, the Weird turn Pro.

Quote TheChorltonWheelie:

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Quote Off duty BBQ lighter AKA Idris:

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god that's tempting TCW... really...... oooohhhhh......

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I have a BFG, and I have the same Kahler trem on order as, and as you've pointed out, it drops straight onto the existing posts. It'll be easy enough to revert it back to standard if there's a detrimental effect on the sound.

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well, it will change, but only you can decide whether it's really for the worse....


if it wasn't for the new suspension and tyres on my guided missile this month.... i'd be having that one ....... damn this idea of money being a finite resource.....

Haven't used a Bigsby (or clone thereof) in years, but I greatly enjoyed them. They need a bit of maintenance, IME, as the pivot bearing tended to not only wear down but pick up fine grit from the environment, & so would get "sticky" over time.

As for a floating trem changing a guitar's tone: oh, good heavens, YES, it will.

A stoptail Strat is at least trying to be a single resonating body. Take that guitar & fit it with a floating trem. That means routing a big cavity out the back. And another cavity clear thru the body. Then put in three steel springs that spend most of their time either damping or reinforcing some random tonal sequence. And the cavity adds its own tones, turning the Strat into something closer to a Thinline. The mechanism somewhat decouples the strings from body.

Not that there's anything wrong with that -- most of my guitars have a floating trem, & the variables give each their own unique tone.

I'm talking through my hat a little, as I've never tried one, but I don't see how routing-out an LP (much less adding the hardware) does anything to maintain the "classic" sound of a mahogany-slab LP with a stud-mounted bridge. It'd be a different instrument -- not worse, not better.

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resident troublemaker, http://forum.frugalguitarist.com/

tony, there ARE ways of doing it that do NOT REQUIRE A BIG ROUT

Thanks guys for all your informative replies...

I just played the Gibson Les Paul Axcess with the Floyd Rose.

Actually quite a nice guitar - but somehow it seems as Gibson were trying to appeal to the Ibanez RG players...!

1. The neck heel is contoured / cut away to allow upper fret access
2. The body is thinner, has a belly contour and is chambered too

To my ears it didn't have that fat round sound of a Les Paul, but somehow fell midway between a 'rock axe' and a Les Paul...and I A/B'd it with an LP Traditional.

Come to think of it, if they didn't do all the contouring / weight relieving stuff with the body, then you'd have a Les Paul with the only thing different being a Floyd-Rose. I wonder, if they then omitted the maple cap and made the body all mahogany - might it possibly compensate for the tonal effect of the trem...?

In which case, buying a Les Paul Studio and retro-fitting a Floyd (or better still, a Stetsbar) sounds good...

the Axcess has more modern/rock attributed p/ups, the LP Trad has old PAF sounding p/ups and I would suggest that this , not the 'trem', is making the most difference in sound between the two guitars, in my humble opinion of course. Well, I'm just saying like......

I just found out that the Gibson Les Paul Axcess comes with not an original Floyd Rose, but a licensed Floyd Rose 1000 (Made in Korea).

Also despite the FR bridge, with the wider string spacing, the pickups are not correspondingly F-spaced / trembucker spaced, but Gibson's regular pickups. WHether trembucker spacing makes a big difference is arguable, but on a guitar of this price (£2500) you'd think they'd go to some effort...

IMHO a PRS is a good compromise between a Les Paul and a Strat type guitar - it has the whammy, but is much closer to a Gibson sound as it has humbuckers and a glued in neck -you can even get a single cut which lloks Les Paul-ish too, although I prefer the access that a standard PRS shape gives you :-)

hi,

i'd suggest looking at the fernandez monterey. i have one and though i don't play it much it's a great gtr w/a solid sound. robert fripp uses it as his main axe. 'nuff sed, eh? here's a url for the tremolo version.

http://www.fernandesguitars.com/monterey/monterey-elite-limited/405-monter ey-elite-tremolo.html

it's a lp profile but more like an LPJr or L6S body in that it's a thinner body and hence less heavy, which i count as a plus. still has massive sound. also, you can get it w/t sustainer option, which if you like fripp/michael brooks/etc is very cool.

cheers,

d

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"Patsy had the drug tolerance of Keith Richards and the moral rectitude of Brian Jones." - Dr. Walter Bishop, "Fringe"