Just an observation. The review is based on the TOFT 24 ATB for £3878. The actual only place I can find one for sale in the UK is £5278. Thats quite a substantial difference and surely affects how good the review is as the review of anything is no doubt greatly influenced at what price an item sells for.

IE if an item cost 1p and was worth around 5k then it would be the bargain of the century, however if the 5k item sold for 20k it would be classed as poor (An extreme EG I know)

(I was looking in my mag but its online also)

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/feb08/articles/toftatb24.htm

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(Sent via my iPhone and no doubt riddled with typos as a result)

Quote Kolakube:

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The review is based on the TOFT 24 ATB for £3878. The actual only place I can find one for sale in the UK is £5278.

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Just an observation, but that review was done three and a half years ago. The price printed was correct at the time. Prices change over time. Nothing we can do about that. However, the general content of the review is as valid today as it was then in terms of practicalities, sound quality and so on... although it is also possible that the console has been revised in some way since then, which might also account for the higher current price. Certainly something worth checking.

The notion of 'value for money' of a reviewed product may indeed need to be reappraised in the context of the passing time, the effects of inflation, and the current cost of comparable products.

Hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Thanks Hugh,

Seems a good idea for any manufacturer then is to release a product they aim to sell for £5k for £3500 and then after a year whack it right up to the full £5K. That way it will get far better reviews from not only SOS.

I canot see how Toft (or anyone) can raise their prices so much in just 3 years. Now you cannot get the 16 channel version for the price of 24 channel review model.

None of this is aimed at SOS. As I can't see how you or any other mag or site can combat this. More of an observation and me wondering how Toft can get away with it or if justifiable what makes then so much more expensive to make just 3 years on.

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(Sent via my iPhone and no doubt riddled with typos as a result)

Currency fluctuations have a lot to answer for, as do the costs of shipping and materials, I'm afraid. This has happened with quite a lot of products in the last few years, unfortunately!

The ATB desks, by the way, have undergone quite a few revisions since they were introduced, IIRC. Meter bridge routing is the one thing that springs to mind (I think you can now get the meters to show either buses/tape sends & returns, or channel input levels), but I'm pretty sure they've tweaked other areas of the design too.

Cheers!

Chris

One contributory factor... at time of review VAT=15% (as a result of the VAT-dip introduced by Darling to ease the effects of the recession). VAT now=20%

In fairness to Toft, many items in the pro-audio catalogue have climbed sharply in price over the last three years - some have effectively doubled. That's what a global recession does for you!

Quote Kolakube:

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That way it will get far better reviews from not only SOS.

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SOS reviews look considerably deeper at a product than making a simple price comparison, so I doubt that ploy would (a) work and (b) fool anyone!

Quote:

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I canot see how Toft (or anyone) can raise their prices so much in just 3 years.

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Really? I've seen almost as much rise in costs of gas and electricity, car fuel, my council tax, and the household grocery bills over the same period.

Quote:

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More of an observation and me wondering how Toft can get away with it or if justifiable what makes then so much more expensive to make just 3 years on.

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I suspect it's a combination of a lot of things. As I said, I think they may well have enhanced the desk since the review, which might justify a part of the higher cost. Also, it has become a very popular desk, and greater demand generally enables higher retail prices. Further, the UK VAT rate was lower when we reviewed it and is considerably higher now. And then there's that pesky global recession thing that weakens currencies and inflates shipping and manufacturing costs... all of which will result in a price hike.

Taking the VAT out of the equation,the cost of the console appears to have gone up about 28% in the intervening 3.5 years. That is a lot, but it's not excessive in comparison to other things. If the market believed the price was too high the sales would be low and the price would come down... or the product would be discontinued.

Hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Hi Chris - I wasnet aware the design had been tweaked. Suppose this could account for some of the increase.

Mike - I hadn't considered the VAT hike. Perhaps this and what Chris mentioned contributes to the drastic increase.

Hugh - Our electricity and gas seemed to double around 5 years ago and hasn't raised that much in the last three years but I do get your point. Global recession etc.

The three of you have given me an idea of how this is possible re the state of the worlds economics. To be honest, Im not one for global economics, all I can say from my experience is when I see a mixer in a review for sub 4k and think, hey that looks perfect and then realist they sell for a quater more puts me off instantly wanting to buy it.

Apologies in advance...

At time of review: UK price was £3,878, or £3,300 exc VAT. US$ exchange rate (from XE.com) was 1.97, so US$ equivalent price was $6.5k
Current price £5,278, or £4,399 exc VAT. US$ exchange rate is 1.60, so US$ equivalent price is $7k.
(I've rounded)

Although the product has increased in price in the UK by £1.4k, the increase in US price (which appears to be where the parent company of the manufacturer is based) is $500, which is about 8%. To be honest, I think that's entirely reasonable.

EmGee

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EmGee
MBP, Focusrite Pro24DSP, Logic9, Yamaha Motif, Kontakt

Quote Kolakube:

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...when I see a mixer in a review for sub 4k and think, hey that looks perfect and then realist they sell for a quater more puts me off instantly wanting to buy it.

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Fair enough... perhaps you should have bought it when the review was current!

Hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Story of my life Hugh Had it gone the other-way and the price actually gone down (Impossible i the UK) Id be chuffed.

Sod it im going to get a cheapo classic recession friendly board.

Quote Kolakube:

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Story of my life Hugh Had it gone the other-way and the price actually gone down (Impossible i the UK) Id be chuffed.

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You wouldn't if you'd bought it before the price drop

In all seriousness - all things, including music tech gear, increase in price as time goes by.

Given the recent recession, prices are being bumped up due to inflation and rising costs for all of us including the manufacturers, but additionally fewer people are buying 'luxury' items so aren't splashing the cash on gear like this as much as they would have done in the past. This too might contribute to a higher price. Finally, as has already been mentioned, manufacturers frequently 'update' the same product, which also bumps up the cost. Oh, and VAT as well, although the extra 5% won't have made a HUGE difference.

It's the age-old Mars Bar test. You can't get one for less than about 55p/60p nowadays... and just 10 years ago they were about 30p, nearly half the amount.

Weirdly it seems to be things like gadgets that actually cost less as time goes on and the technology improves - although I suspect music tech gear fits into this category also, just over a much longer time period than 3 years when the gear is still valid.

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SOS Web Editor, Support & Social Media
Friend SOS on Facebook | Follow SOS on Twitter

Quote Jennifer Jones:

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It's the age-old Mars Bar test. You can't get one for less than about 55p/60p nowadays... and just 10 years ago they were about 30p, nearly half the amount.

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And they've shrunk too!

At least the mixing desk has been enhanced in the meantime


Martin

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YewTreeMagic

Anyone know why TOFT only seem to have one shop here in the UK selling. (No wonder the prices are so high)

Quote Kolakube:

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Anyone know why TOFT only seem to have one shop here in the UK selling. (No wonder the prices are so high)

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Presumably it's because (a) it's not a huge market so there's not so much room for multiple resellers; and (b) they have more control over the price (they don't have retailers shifting them at cost as a loss leader — I've seen that happen with other gear) and so stand a chance of staying in business with it.

Do you *really* think £5300 for a 24-channel is expensive? It's about £220 per channel — before you even throw in the group and master monitoring facilities, amongst other things. I can't say that I can afford one right now, but I'd hardly say that was bad value!

Yip, I think £5,300 is terrible value when I first came to realise it existed in a back issue of SOS just 3 years old for 25% cheaper.

Would I think it was bad value if I hadn't realised the initial price? Not as much or at all, but this sticks in my throat now that I am aware of it. It may not put any of you off and that is fine. each to their own.


How I wished Id bought one of the first ones. Is be able to sell them second hand and make a profit.
Perhaps I may start a company that does that. Buys a 100 or so brand new electronics on launch, don't open them, just store them, then when these rip off merchants decided to inflate there prices 10% a year I will then sell my stock for 50% cheaper than the excess on the latest price inflation the manufactures pull out their ass, and make myself a tidy profit also.

Everyones a winner.

I think there might be a hint of bitterness showing in your continued posts Kola. There is no obvious reason to suggest the current price of the ATB24 is a 'rip-off'. Several people have suggested sensible and realistic reasons why the price has increased over the intervening 3.5 years, and others have pointed out that the current price still represents reasonable value for money in comparison to the equivalents.

The bottom line is you didn't want the desk back then, and you can't justify its purchase now. So let's move on shall we?


Oh... and I think your business plan is slightly flawed in that you don't appear to have budgeted for the rent and insurance on the lock-up space you'd need to store your 100 boxes for three years!

Hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Im not bitter Huge,

I just cannot understand how others can be happy with 25% in 3 years. And we wonder why were in a recession.

Hands up last time anyones pay went up 25% in 3 years?

Oh my plan is flawed all right. I could't afford 100 Toft mixers in the first place, but if anyone could there is money to be made seemingly

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(Sent via my iPhone and no doubt riddled with typos as a result)

do you not get it yet? the rise is not the cause of the recession, it's an effect of it, and the increase in costs due to tax changes, import costs on parts, delivery costs,and so on....

everything costs more now.... and in some cases , by a fair old whack.

it's not cricket to suggest Toft are any kind of rip of merchant taking advantage of you , or other prospective buyers... ... ultimately the cost increase and global situation is almost certainly hurting sales.... but you can't just decide to sell something cheaper if you want to stay in business, you HAVE to make a profit per item... or you're dead in the water.


consider, for example, that their overhead costs will have risen considerably.... for example just the increase in fuel and energy costs in the last 3.5 years are considerable.....

those costs have to be covered somewhere..... guess where.....

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if you don't know who i am, i aint gonna tell you.

So its likely that we will never get out of this recession them. Things are going to continuously rise but pay wont?

Surely the only thing that can get up out is if the public spent again. But the only way they can spend if they can actually afford stuff.

I did 'get it' also, but don't see other items raising by so much in 3 years. If anyone can point out any other electrical items that have raised 25% in three years then ill gladly bow out.

For EG, I bought my monitors new 3 years ago and they remain a similar price (Focal Twins). I also bought a mixer three years ago (zed 16) and its now a few hundred quid cheaper!
Also my 30" LCD Dell monitor is also cheaper than the previous model and superior and cheaper than the previous model or at least the same. I can back all of this up with receipts etc if you would all like. So I just don't see what your all saying.

Would you like me to post up my receipts? I really don't mind. (With my info removed or course)

Also the review of my Zed 16 here in the exact same year as the Toft (6 months apart)

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/nov08/articles/allenandheathzedr16.htm


.... I actually paid £200 less! Surely A&H suffer the recession like everyone else including Toft?

Both the Toft and the A&H were reviewed in SOS in 2008.

A&H are based in the UK, whereas the Toft company is centred in the USA. As someone has already pointed out, the USA cost of the ATB hasn't changed that some of the cost difference is down to exhange rate issues. The A&H console won't have been affected by that in the same way.

A&H also have their own UK factory. Toft doesn't.

I've asked Malcolm Toft for a comment on this topic and am awaiting a reply.

Hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Quote Hugh Robjohns:

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... I've asked Malcolm Toft for a comment on this topic and am awaiting a reply...

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Ah! I was going to mention it if I saw him at PLASA... I've always found him extremely approachable and happy to chat.

Yes, Malcolm is a jolly nice chap and very approachable. However, he tells me that he isn't involved in marketing, just design, and so has passed my question on to Alan Hyatt in the USA since he deals with all pricing and marketing for the PMI group.

That comment, in itself, does support the previous suggestion that the console is priced for the US market, and the UK price increases are largely down to currency exchange rates.

Hopefully I'll hear something back later today or tomorrow.

hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Thanks Hugh, I do appreciate your efforts.

Can I ask where Focal Twins are manufactured? Im going to guess not in the UK but to be honest im not sure.
And I am going to guess my Dell monitor that is also electronics is certainly not made in England or anywhere near.

My zed 16 was actually made in China, not the UK Hugh. The early (more expensive batch) you received to review we're made in the UK, but then they switched that out to China for whatever reason. (Certainly not at the expense of quality as my Zed 16 was well built and id guess no worse than the made in England versions)

However, taking into your importing costs, you raise a valid point. How was my Chinese A&H mixer cheaper than your UK made review model?

Hopefully we will hear from a Toft representative who can explain their 25% rise whilst competitors like A&H lower theres and surely have the same overheads.

I get the feeling a lot of you seem to think Im just being outspoken here, but I feel this thread is a typical representation of the stiff upper lip British culture where we just get on with things.
The amount of people on here who have justified 25% in 3 years and just pay it anyhow when I have come up with a constructive counter point re my Chinese made Zed 16. No wonder Toft, like the petrol prices just do what they want as we just keep lining up.

Doesn't anyone here stand with me and at least think even for one second, enough is enough instead of all just trying to justify why 25% is ok in 3 years?
Im not trying to change anyones mind, perhaps you are all in far better financial situations than myself and £1500 isn't that much cash to you, but I can't afford to write such huge differences off in such a small time as justifiable, when nothing else I have bought seems to have raised more than 5% at best in the last 3 years, some has even gone down.

Quote Kolakube:

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Can I ask where Focal Twins are manufactured?

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You can ask, but I'm afraid I've no idea!

Quote:

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My zed 16 was actually made in China, not the UK Hugh. The early (more expensive batch) you received to review we're made in the UK, but then they switched that out to China for whatever reason.

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I believe that they prefer to build the initial batches in the UK where they can fine tune the production process and iron out any production glitches more easily, and then they transfer production to China where they can build in quantity at lower cost (even taking into account the shipping costs), presumably because the workforce is a lot cheaper than in the UK.

Quote:

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Hopefully we will hear from a Toft representative who can explain their 25% rise whilst competitors like A&H lower theres and surely have the same overheads.

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I'm pretty certain it will be almost entirely down to exchange rates and VAT increases between the US and UK. Having looked into it a little more, it does appear that the US price has remained much more consistent over the three and a half years.

Removing the appropriate VAT from the then and now prices leaves us with a 28% difference in cost. Comparing exchange rates between then and now gives a 24% difference in value ($=£0.629 today, and £0.507 in mid 2008). I think that is the principal explanation; the rest will be shipping and production costs.

Quote:

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I get the feeling a lot of you seem to think Im just being outspoken here

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Yes, but only because it's unreasonable and unfair to make bold claims and statmentes about being 'ripped off' without the facts. And nobody is forcing you to buy the thing. If you can't afford it or don't think it's worth the price, don't buy it. Simples!

Quote:

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The amount of people on here who have justified 25% in 3 years and just pay it anyhow when I have come up with a constructive counter point re my Chinese made Zed 16.

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The bottom line is that if you don't think the price is justified you don't have to buy it. There are cheaper options, as you have pointed out. So where's the problem?

If the Toft console doesn't sell because its competitors are cheaper, then that's their problem. They'll either have to reduce their margins (if they can) or stop producing it. That's they way the market works. Presumably at the moment there are sufficient people who do think the price is justifiable to keep the company in business... And if they are making money from their current sales that will enable them to invest in designing an even better console in the future!

hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Hi Hugh,

Yes I get all of your points, IE if I don't like the price don't buy, and stop winging about it, but then whats the point of this sub forum? Not meaning to be rude but SOS asked for feedback and I offered mine and I believe I have some valid points.

I never used phrases as strong as "ripped off" but I admit had I bought a Toft current day and then read the review in a my back issue that is exactly how I would feel.

Ok, anyhow I made my point. Ill bow out now before this gets out of hand. Its certainly not worth me getting peoples backs up. I can say this though, Toft certainly won't be getting my money. (maybe second hand but not new)

Quote Kolakube:

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whats the point of this sub forum? Not meaning to be rude but SOS asked for feedback and I offered mine and I believe I have some valid points.

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You may have a valid point, but it's not really feedback for SOS, is it? You'd be better providing your feedback to PMI since they're the only people who can do anything to help you. Call me old-fashioned, but complaining that something we reviewed over three years ago now costs more doesn't really seem like feedback relevant to today's magazine!

Quote:

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I never used phrases as strong as "ripped off"

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I think you referred to 'rip off merchants' ...

Anyway, as promised, here is the Alan Hyatt's response to the price increase:

Quote:

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Hey guys,

It may be in fact more money. The fact is, improvements have been made
along the way. The Bourns Faders we use cost twice as much as the Taiwan
Alpha's. We also changed to supported pots, balanced outputs, better solo
indication and much more.

The current price is £4,999.00 without meter bridge. In 2006, it was
£2,999.00, so yes it has gone up, but cots of manufacturer have gone up,
fuel costs, labor, overhead.... This is the way of the world, and the
improvements have also gone up over the years. Remember, the ATB is
approaching 6 years now.

IN 2008 when it was reviewed, the price was £4,499.00.

There are some things I cannot reveal right now, but soon you will see
more changes. The ATB continues to be used by top professionals all over the world, and is still considered at its current price to be the most professional fully analog console at under £10K.

Regards,

Alan Hyatt

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Hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Quote:

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You may have a valid point, but it's not really feedback for SOS, is it? You'd be better providing your feedback to PMI since they're the only people who can do anything to help you. Call me old-fashioned, but complaining that something we reviewed over three years ago now costs more doesn't really seem like feedback relevant to today's magazine!

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Hugh I am baffled by the purpose of this sub forum more than ever. No where does it say, recent issues only.

My initial point 'was' feedback. The thread has just digressed into something else. My initial point was, doesn't reviewing something so cheap compared to its real world price earn it a better review as value for money is surely affected when something rises 25%. Perhaps more of an observation than feedback but aren't they one and the same?

Quote:

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IN 2008 when it was reviewed, the price was £4,499.00.

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Well this shines a different light totally. Turns out it may have been a SOS misprint and the price was never £3878 just 3 years ago. Fair enough. I can totally understand and accept a rise of £500 in 3 years.


You know, I cannot help think everyone is being very defensive here. Perhaps I am wrong but just a feeling. Id like to remind anyone who thinks I have raised this issue just to whinge that I have actually read SOS o and off since the 80s and am a huge fan of the mag. Something for England to be proud of as it is internationally recognised.
I simply saw this feedback forum after the new forum restructure and thought Id raise this question / observation.

Not sure it was a good idea now. I honestly think I will refrain from commenting or feeding back anything in future. Im left to feel like my point was an attack on SOS and it was never meant to be perceived as any such thing as it never was any such thing. Perhaps i'm just being paranoid.

The solution is simple cinderella, get RBS and HBoS back on their feet and paying tax and kickstart the UK economy, then the exchange rate will swing back in our favour and you may go to the TOFT ball. PZAZZLE

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Daniel Davis
Edinburgh Recording Studio Windmill Sound

Quote Kolakube:

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My initial point was, doesn't reviewing something so cheap compared to its real world price earn it a better review as value for money is surely affected when something rises 25%. Perhaps more of an observation than feedback but aren't they one and the same?

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When the product was reviewed, three and a half years ago, the price stated in the review was the price that it could be purchased for at that time in the UK. That the manufacturer has subsequently been forced to, or decided to, increase the price is nothing to do with the review, the magazine, or SOS. Your comment is not 'feedback' on the magazine or that review article. It is simply a comment that you are peeved that you cannot afford to buy this mixer at its current price. No more and no less.

Quote:

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Turns out it may have been a SOS misprint and the price was never £3878 just 3 years ago.

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I'd be very surprised if it was a misprint. While such things do happen occasionally, we do take a lot of care to make sure that we check and double check prices before going to print, and had we made such a gross error I'm certain we would have received commemts at the time from disgruntled readers who couldn't find the console at that price... and to the best of my recollection, we didn't!

Quote:

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I simply saw this feedback forum after the new forum restructure and thought Id raise this question / observation.

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Fair enough. I'm not that bothered about which forum you chose to air your comments. However, the description for this particular forum says: Discuss, suggest, offer opinions, critique and help to improve the magazine, website and forums. I really don't think there is anything that we can do to 'improve the magazine' when a manufacturer decides to upgrade its product and increase the price three years after we reviewed it.

I don't accept your argument that manufacturers are out to 'con' us or our readers by submitting products for review with an artificially low price. It just doesn't happen and, in fact, since we always quote recommended retail prices with VAT included potential purchasers will normally be able to find the products at significantly lower 'street' prices than those we quote anyway!

Also, I don't accept that it is valid to complain about a price differential between an old review and a current product three years after we reviewed it. As we have learned, the product itself has been substantially upgraded in the intervening time, and the world economy has also changed dramatically. Some things now cost less, some more, and some roughly the same. That's life. Nothing we can do about it. You select products according to their suitability in various ways, one of which is cost.

Nevertheless, it is certainly an interesting and valid observation that this desk -- albeit in a different form now to when we reviewed it, apparently -- is so much more expensive. However, your initial posts (and the fact that you made them in the feedback forum rather than one of the others), made it sound like you felt SOS was in some way responsible for your disappointment at not being able to afford the desk at its current price. I don't accept that contention -- but if that wasn't your point I apologise for misunderstanding you.

Hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

it's a beautiful thing the "ignore this user" function .

Huge. Ok, I really can't be bothered to drag this out any further. SOS is superb and I have no other feedback. As I said before ill bow out now. As you said, just don't buy it, and im not. So case closed.

BBQ - Ignore away. I don't think we have ever conversed on here so I doubt it will make any difference to both of us if you choose to ignore me. But im not sure why you would say you wanted to ignore me when I simply have offered a point of view in the feedback forum. I have accepted you are all ok with the price hike and make no apologies for standing up and being counted when I am not.

Quote Kolakube:

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BBQ - Ignore away. I don't think we have ever conversed on here so I doubt it will make any difference to both of us if you choose to ignore me. But im not sure why you would say you wanted to ignore me when I simply have offered a point of view in the feedback forum. I have accepted you are all ok with the price hike and make no apologies for standing up and being counted when I am not.

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Fair point. Feedback made, feedback debated, all is out in the open. Which is just as it should be.

Luckily the ignore this user function could also be applied to BBQ in this instance

I think you will find that almost all manufacturers price went up about 3 years ago just before the recession kicked in. All the reviews that SOS done before that was relative to the price at the time and regardless of prices rising 3 fold this happened across the board. I was working for TASCAM at the time, the CDRW900 went up to nearly double its price (it used to retail for about £260 inc vat) They are now about £480 - £500. They were a good recorder at £260 and are still a good recorder at £500. The Uncomfortable bitter pill to swallow is that prices have gone up but wages haven't but the initial problem was that a lot of kit was being sold for far too cheap which kind of put us in this mess in the first place. I think the OP needs to realise that something like an A&H Zed mixer will sell quite a lot over 3 years which eventually allows them to sink the initial R&D cost, a Toft might take a bit more time to Catch up. The quality of the kit at the time of a review is made will never change but the technology will. It is impossible to have a Dynamic Review in paper format, but SOS do provide alternatives in their reviews so if your really concerned at a price hike check out the alternatives to see if they have gone in the same direction.

Cheers

Gary