We have been asked to supply (in there words) an ''old school analog mixing desk'' with around 16 - 24 inputs with AUX on XLR's and there budget is £1000< !

Any ideas ??

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PA Hire Surrey
Lighting Hire Surrey

Hi Tim

Is that the total of the spec or have they specified anything about number of pre and post auxes, EQ, direct outs, groups etc.?

The request for auxes on XLRs is a strange one. I wonder if they simply mean balanced?

Nothing springs to mind from the usual suspects, but I'll scout around a bit!

M

Allen and Heath, an outboard reverb and a handful of 1/4" TRS to male XLR adaptors? You can spend the rest on a nice case.

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Ohm's Law states, "Your PA isn't as powerful as you think it is".

Having just done a quick tour of every mixer manufacturer that I can think of that's going to have anything close to budget I have to agree with Shufflebeat.

Irrespective of the rest of the spec, there are only two mixers/mixer series that I can find that have auxes on XLR and are anywhere near budget:

Soundcraft GB2R-16 and... Behringer XL series

So... either show them how to solder or how to use adapters and then point them at an A&H ZED420 or 428.

Umm the Soundcraft GB2R-16 looks ok and ticks THE box lol ... any reviews or users on here ?

Thanks guys for taking the time to help by the way I know there budget is tight but i hate not being able to help..

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PA Hire Surrey
Lighting Hire Surrey

the A&H ML series have Aux outputs on XLR.

and also the GL series are switchable, you can choose to have either the group outputs or the Aux outputs on XLRs.

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www.Lozjackson.com

Quote Bossman:

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the A&H ML series have Aux outputs on XLR.

and also the GL series are switchable, you can choose to have either the group outputs or the Aux outputs on XLRs.

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True... but the budget is less then £1000...

Quote Bossman:

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the A&H ML series have Aux outputs on XLR.

and also the GL series are switchable, you can choose to have either the group outputs or the Aux outputs on XLRs.

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But there over £1000

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PA Hire Surrey
Lighting Hire Surrey

Quote TSH-Tim:

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Any ideas ??

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Here's my idea

Quote aekoi:

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Quote TSH-Tim:

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Any ideas ??

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Here's my idea

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problem is they never all fit if your using 4+ more at the same time and they have said it must be XLR.... odd but its what it is

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PA Hire Surrey
Lighting Hire Surrey

Yeah, I was joking really, the customer is always right! Good luck

Quote Bossman:

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the A&H ML series have Aux outputs on XLR.

and also the GL series are switchable, you can choose to have either the group outputs or the Aux outputs on XLRs.

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I will in fact be teaching how to read a signal flow diagram for consoles tomorrow off a GL series, I will double check but I believe that also changes the functionality of the faders at the very least, but honestly I am not sure that it works like you think it does, in as far as I believe that it only changes the functionality of the faders. But as I mentioned I will double check tomorrow.

Seablade

It does change the functionality of the faders - the Group faders become Aux faders; it's for when the desk is being used as a monitor desk rather than an FOH one.

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Gear List: reverse only.

Does "old school" mean vintage / second hand? When I bought a 2nd hand GL2000 back in the day, it was a lot less than £1k...

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There's nothing we can't face... Except for bunnies

Quote Dave Gate:

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It does change the functionality of the faders - the Group faders become Aux faders; it's for when the desk is being used as a monitor desk rather than an FOH one.

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Yes I am going to check and see if there was an internal jumper to change the signal flow though was my point. The switch to flip Groups and Auxes definitely does this you are correct. (And I don't even think it reroutes audio on the output ports, I believe those may stay the same, but again will check in a couple hours).

Seablade

On my 2000, the switch flips the faders and the output ports. Normally the groups have the faders and balanced XLRs whilst the auxes have knobs and unbalanced jacks. Flip the switch and the auxes get the faders and balanced XLRs. You could retrofit some ICs to balance the jacks too should you wish.
Half a dozen jack->XLRM cables are an easy fix if solid adapters won't fit.

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There's nothing we can't face... Except for bunnies

Umm anyone used the Berry ... it seems the only one they can afford

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PA Hire Surrey
Lighting Hire Surrey

WHY do the aux sends have to be on XLRs? It seems a pointless requirement to me.

I'd either use TRS to XLR break out cables, or make up a small stage box with chassis XLRs and cable back to TRS plugs for the console.

Seems utterly bonkers to me to discount so many good and affordable consoles purely becuase they put Aux sends on TRS sockets... especially if such a barmy policy forces the purchase of something far more mediocre!

Hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Tim

Can they REALLY not compromise on the XLR auxes? Seems crazy that they'd by-pass all sorts of better makes in favour of a Behringer just because it's got XLR auxes. Surely a few of these on, say, an A&H ZED would sort the problem:

Balanced Jack to XLR

Of course other makes are available - and personally I'd probably want to go for Neutrik or Rean connectors... but the principle applies...

Mike

Edit: Hugh got there first!

Edited by Mike Stranks (05/10/11 03:26 PM)

Quote TSH-Tim:

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Quote Bossman:

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the A&H ML series have Aux outputs on XLR.

and also the GL series are switchable, you can choose to have either the group outputs or the Aux outputs on XLRs.

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But there over £1000

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you can get a 16 channel GL2400 for £1,061 from DV. ok, slightly over a grand.

But, its hardly an 'old school' desk if you buy it new, is it? ... so what about second hand?

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www.Lozjackson.com

Quote seablade:

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Quote Bossman:

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the A&H ML series have Aux outputs on XLR.

and also the GL series are switchable, you can choose to have either the group outputs or the Aux outputs on XLRs.

---

I will in fact be teaching how to read a signal flow diagram for consoles tomorrow off a GL series, I will double check but I believe that also changes the functionality of the faders at the very least, but honestly I am not sure that it works like you think it does, in as far as I believe that it only changes the functionality of the faders. But as I mentioned I will double check tomorrow.

Seablade

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I am sure that it works like I think it does.

it swaps the auxes and the groups, so that the groups are routed to the rotary pots and the TRS outputs, and the auxes are routed to the faders (through the insert point) and to the XLR outputs. This is the way they work on all GL series desks I have used.

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www.Lozjackson.com

Its probably a group of people who don't know what they want, who have been given "advice" by someone who doesn't know what he's taking about.


I'm guessing they might have a monitor system in place, and the amps have XLR inputs. Whoever is giving advice, is probably unaware that you can run a balanced TRS 1/4" to XLR or they might think that XLR outputs are the only balanced outputs...

Edited by robare99 (05/10/11 07:44 PM)

lol..... Ok your going to love this..

Spoke with them today and they told me (the key word here is TOLD) that XLR AUX sends sound better than jack AUX's. (News to me lol)

I sort of said ummmm ok do you mind me asking what monitors your using ? Answer = Mackie 450's !!

I kindly TOLD them that i wouldn't be able to help anymore and i wish them the VERY VERY best of luck.

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PA Hire Surrey
Lighting Hire Surrey

Actually, I've heard that. I think it's something to do with keeping the blue notes and red notes separate and sending them down their own wires. Not sure of the theory behind it, though.

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Ohm's Law states, "Your PA isn't as powerful as you think it is".

Quote shufflebeat:

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Actually, I've heard that. I think it's something to do with keeping the blue notes and red notes separate and sending them down their own wires. Not sure of the theory behind it, though.

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Yer i've heard that as well.... do you also use those special desk matts that give you the best sound in the world if you place the under your desk. £2.74 on Ebay

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PA Hire Surrey
Lighting Hire Surrey

Quote TSH-Tim:

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Quote shufflebeat:

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Actually, I've heard that. I think it's something to do with keeping the blue notes and red notes separate and sending them down their own wires. Not sure of the theory behind it, though.

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Yer i've heard that as well.... do you also use those special desk matts that give you the best sound in the world if you place the under your desk. £2.74 on Ebay

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Just think how good it would sound sat on some Auralex MoPads.

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Ohm's Law states, "Your PA isn't as powerful as you think it is".

Did you know red cable sounds better then blue cable as well

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PA Hire Surrey
Lighting Hire Surrey

Quote TSH-Tim:

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Spoke with them today and they told me (the key word here is TOLD) that XLR AUX sends sound better than jack AUX's. (News to me lol)

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You know how I said earlier that the customer was always right. I didn't really mean it. Seriously tho', that is pure genius. Cant remember the shorthand but its the one where i'm rolling on the floor, lol to the power of 10 basically

Quote Bossman:

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I am sure that it works like I think it does.

it swaps the auxes and the groups, so that the groups are routed to the rotary pots and the TRS outputs, and the auxes are routed to the faders (through the insert point) and to the XLR outputs. This is the way they work on all GL series desks I have used.

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You are correct in that it swaps the outputs, but it also swaps the faders, which means that the groups become relatively useless to use as submix controls...

Quote:

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In FOH mode, LR feeds the main PA. M sums the L and R post-fade signals to provide an additional feed for a mono fill speaker or zone, or a main feed into a mono PA. Groups 1-4 may be used for multitrack recording, zone feeds and so on, or simply left unconnected where they are used as ‘subgroups’ to LR for level masters and/or inserted processing.
In monitor mode Groups 1-4 and LR XLRs and inserts become the aux mix masters. M becomes the engineer’s listen wedge AFL/PFL feed. This configures the console with 6 main stage monitor and an engineer’s output. The groups and LR are still available via the matrix to provide yet more monitor feeds.

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Also note that it also means the LR will no longer be on XLRs(Along with not being on the faders obviously), which given their thoughts on Auxes on XLRs also counts this solution out. Of course all this is a bit moot when dealing with people whose response consists of that.

Worried about connection issues with 1/4" non-locking connectors vs XLRs I can see. But worried about audio quality, and with that budget... yea good luck.

Seablade

Quote TSH-Tim:

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Did you know red cable sounds better then blue cable as well

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no no no, you got it all wrong, blue cable definitely sounds better

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www.Lozjackson.com

Very wise to walk Tim, IMHO...

... but I do wonder how people get hold of such tales... maybe it's some half-understood stuff about balanced and unbalanced - not realising that the connector type is irrelevant - or maybe it's as Seablade says, something in their minds about the reliability of the plug and socket connection introducing drop-outs, crackles etc.

I'll file that with something I was told by a small dry-hire operator over 30 years ago, to the effect that you couldn't mix more than four sound sources through any amp-speaker combination as the system wouldn't cope electronically with all the different sounds.

''I'll file that with something I was told by a small dry-hire operator over 30 years ago, to the effect that you couldn't mix more than four sound sources through any amp-speaker combination as the system wouldn't cope electronically with all the different sounds.''

Now thats funny ! (How do they cope on the Glasto stages lol)

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PA Hire Surrey
Lighting Hire Surrey

Or a mate of mine, many years ago, who told me that a compressor wouldn't work properly if the amps weren't all turned up to full gain.

Mind you he was a lampy.

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Gear List: reverse only.

Quote Dave Gate:

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Or a mate of mine, many years ago, who told me that a compressor wouldn't work properly if the amps weren't all turned up to full gain.

Mind you he was a lampy.

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Thats true isn't it

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PA Hire Surrey
Lighting Hire Surrey

Quote TSH-Tim:

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''I'll file that with something I was told by a small dry-hire operator over 30 years ago, to the effect that you couldn't mix more than four sound sources through any amp-speaker combination as the system wouldn't cope electronically with all the different sounds.''

Now thats funny ! (How do they cope on the Glasto stages lol)

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This guy's solution was that I should hire three separate systems, including mixers, from him to accommodate the number of sources I had. He said that I should place the different speakers next to each other on stage...

Thats surely a joke right

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PA Hire Surrey
Lighting Hire Surrey

Quote TSH-Tim:

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Thats surely a joke right

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Well you have seen the Bose L1 systems right?

Seablade

Or an AB rig as occasionally pops up in theatre tours? Top Hat uses one - twice as many speakers to rig...

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There's nothing we can't face... Except for bunnies

Quote seablade:

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Quote TSH-Tim:

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Thats surely a joke right

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Well you have seen the Bose L1 systems right?

Seablade

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lol point made

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PA Hire Surrey
Lighting Hire Surrey

Quote Sheriton:

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Or an AB rig as occasionally pops up in theatre tours? Top Hat uses one - twice as many speakers to rig...

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Heh little bit different there actually, there is actually a point to the AB rig, especially in theater. Whereas the statement as provided has little point to it;)

Seablade

Quote TSH-Tim:

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Thats surely a joke right

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Oh no... he was deadly serious. The 'phone conversation ended very quickly at that point!

Many many MANY moons ago i got to a site where there was this funny looking big red socket (32amp 3phase lol)

Well having only a BLUE 32amp plug (this was many years ago remember) i thought i would be a great idea to cut the cable and wire all the lives together as i didn't have a red plug !

Lets put it this way.... it didn't go down very well and my amps didn't last very long

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PA Hire Surrey
Lighting Hire Surrey