I'm looking at replacing my ageing and malfunctioning old Apple Mouse with either a trackpad or Kensington Expert. The reason I'm looking at the Kensington is I've tried one of their Slimblade trackballs and liked it a lot, except for the scrolling mechanism (rotating the ball itself, rather than a ring - which means the cursor moves around simultaneously, and which I found uncomfortable). I'm also short on space next to the keyboard, so something stationary would be better.

Basically I'm wondering if anybody has used either of these devices with Logic, and how they work compared to the 360 degree scrollball on the old regular mouse - any comments and experiences would be gratefully considered.

Which "old regular mouse" ? Maybe Apple Mighty Mouse ? (as opposed to the much better Magic Mouse).

I personally love the Magic TrackPad (nothing like a track ball, incase any other reader is confused).

However, a mouse has some advantages, so I've actually taken to using both TrackPad *and* mouse, one each side of the keyboard. As well as getting best of both worlds, I can now move the pointer with either hand, simply according to which hand is less busy doing other things.

( but appreciate this may not suit if space is short )

Quote chris...:

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Which "old regular mouse" ? Maybe Apple Mighty Mouse ?

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Yep, that's the one.

How does the trackpad function within Logic, if that's something you use it with? Any benefits/disadvantages compared to a mouse?

Kensington Expert Mouse is fantastic, cured me from serious wrist problems, used it for 2-3 years but with all new gestures I am fine with Magic Mouse, and stopped using Kensington. I can do more specially in DAWs then with Kensington and Expert is bulky. Magic Mouse might be too fiddly for some users, I like it more then touchpad (at the moment) but Apple probably will go touchpad way so might shift too it in the future.

I think the track pad is brilliant!

I use my macbook pro's track pad when I'm out and about then when its docked in my studio I use a separate one. i love being able to use all the gestures to zoom in and things, I find my workflow is quicker with gestures and stuff, just personal preference tbh.

I use two trackpads with my Mac Pro and Logic. I think they are brilliant. Very reliable and mobile too. Mice or trackballs seem cumbersome by comparison.

I've never used the Kensington Mouse but after switching to a Track Pad a year ago I now never use a mouse. I work on Logic pro all day and its terrific. Takes a week or two to get familiar with it but after a month or two you'll be flying around. It also ended various niggly RSI twinges I was suffering from as I tend to relax the operative hand's muscles more whereas with a mouse my hand was in a constant state of tension hovering over the mouse. Best £75 I ever spent on Mac gear!

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shrootyruss, Mac Pro 2x2.66GHz, 10.6.8, Pro Tools 10, Logic 9, Lynx Aurora 16/AES16, DAV BG4, mics, guitars, cotton buds.

I've lived with the Magic Trackpad for a while and have come to the realisation that I actually don't much like it.

It feels and behaves differently from the trackpad in my MBP (which feels fine and I use quite a bit) and not in a particularly good way. It just doesn't feel as "positive" - it feels like I'm kinda *indirectly* moving the mouse pointer, rather than *actually* moving it. Difficult to describe, but anyway, I've reverted to my pre-trackpad USB Overdrive setup and I'm much happier with it.

I really like the Kensington Expert mouse. The only catch is the price... I work at four workstations, so it cost me nearly $500.

Post deleted by Tui (yet another double-post).

Quote desmond:

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I've lived with the Magic Trackpad for a while and have come to the realisation that I actually don't much like it.

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Yeah, but you are not normal.

Yeah, and that's a good thing...

I agree with Desmond in that there's something slightly weird about the Magic TrackPad.

Not exactly sure what.

Maybe the MBP position is better (neither on the left nor right). I've sometimes tried my trackpad in front of the keyboard, but because of the shape this isn't ergonomic the way the MBP is.

So for now I'm liking having trackpad AND mouse. Only downside is 2 sets of batteries to charge. But it's great having them wireless, as I can pick up either and place them anywhere on the 2 desks (forming an 'L' shape) on which I work.

I use both. Expert Mouse under the right hand, Apple Trackpad the left. Love the quickness of navigation in Logic with the trackpad, and the pointing precision of the Expert Mouse. The two-handed approach lets me really zip through things.

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Fred Story
Concentrix Music and Sound Design

Quote chris...:

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I agree with Desmond in that there's something slightly weird about the Magic TrackPad. Not exactly sure what.

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Ah, so it's not just me then. Good good!

I don't know what it is either, but it just doesn't feel quite right to me.

Quote chris...:

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So for now I'm liking having trackpad AND mouse. Only downside is 2 sets of batteries to charge. But it's great having them wireless, as I can pick up either and place them anywhere on the 2 desks (forming an 'L' shape) on which I work.

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For me: Mouse on the right, keyboard/trackpad and occasionally wired keyboard in front, graphics tablet and magic track pad on the left. I'm left handed for using a pen/tablet and right handed for the mouse - trackpads can be either left or right equally. It's quite handy having various mousing tools available for either hand, as when one gets tired I can use the other for a while...

Interesting. So are the zoom gestures on the trackpad basically like doing CTRL+scroll on the mouse? And I take it the trackpad is easy to use for 360-degree scrolling? As for scrolling with the Expert Mouse, can the ring be set up to act on both horizontal as well as vertical movement?

The trackpad is very easy to use, almost too easy. It is incredibly sensitive, so the smallest finger movement results in a cursor action. Contextual menus are accessible via two-finger tap, you can swipe between apps and desktops with four fingers, in SL, Expose is accessible via four-finger swipe... Zooming is done via two-finger swipe & selectable modifier.

Best of all, no more RSI.

+1 for Kensignton Expert Trackball on the left, and the Magic Trackpad on the right.

Trackpad allows me to relax my primary input arm, which allows for longer working hours, while the Expert Mouse gives me the quickness of movement (the trackpad definitely lags too much for me, interrupting my workflow at times) plus configurable buttons, which I love.

I'm especially fond of pressing the lower right mouse button once to drag, and using the trackpad to position items/events in Logic. Winning combo.

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I love technology; it complicates my life...

Hmm, OK... never thought using two devices might be useful. I try to use keyboard shortcuts as much as possible, when I can remember what they are. I keep discovering new ones and going "I can do that! Yay!" but some kind of pointing device is necessary, and the mouse isn't it for me. Interesting to read about the trackpad's scrolling. I've not had much experience with these multitouch gestures. I'm guessing from the responses here they're pretty easy to get used to and make sense?

I'm still using my one button mouse.

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http://soundcloud.com/richie-royale
http://www.mixcrate.com/richieroyale

Quote desmond:

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Quote chris...:

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I agree with Desmond in that there's something slightly weird about the Magic TrackPad. Not exactly sure what.

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Ah, so it's not just me then. Good good!

I don't know what it is either, but it just doesn't feel quite right to me.

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I don't own a TrackPad, but most likely, the issue you describe is a latency.

MBP's trackpad is wired (most likely via USB) and Magic one is Bluetooth.
Bluetooth has a much higher latency than USB.

Quote c0ff:

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I don't own a TrackPad, but most likely, the issue you describe is a latency.

MBP's trackpad is wired (most likely via USB) and Magic one is Bluetooth.
Bluetooth has a much higher latency than USB.

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Possibly, yes.

Although my Logitech mouse is also wireless (not Bluetooth, but still radio) and that's very precise and feels great.

I don't know the difference in tech between the radio they use and the bluetooth protocols to know how much of a difference it makes, though...

Edited by desmond (06/10/11 02:14 PM)

Quote desmond:

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Quote c0ff:

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I don't own a TrackPad, but most likely, the issue you describe is a latency.

MBP's trackpad is wired (most likely via USB) and Magic one is Bluetooth.
Bluetooth has a much higher latency than USB.

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Possibly, yes.

Although my Logitech mouse is also wireless (not Bluetooth, but still radio) and that's very precise and feels great.

I don't know the difference in tech between the radio they use and the bluetooth protocols to know how much of a difference it makes, though...

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I also use a Logitech wireless mouse with a radio receiver (for my PC) and that one is very snappy. I'm not sure what it is about the Trackpad, but for me it feels like it needs to recognize gestures before firing the command, as a result, releasing a click takes a moment longer than it should, often displacing regions I'm trying to move. That's why the two input device setup works well for me. Use the Trackpad to move items, but use the buttons on the mouse for the actual clicking. I don't find the trackpad on the Macbook line to lag quite as much as the magic trackpad either.

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I love technology; it complicates my life...

This is an interesting point. I certainly notice some latency when using the magic trackpad (what a naff name) with my MBP, but I think that's more to do with inadequacies with the computer itself. When using it with the Mac Pro, there's no latency whatsoever, and commands are executed very smoothly.

The Magic Trackpad is just great for music produciton. Its gestures like one, two three, four finger moves makes it quicker to switch between windows and functions than any mouse will do. And is is very precise. I love it.

Quote Tui:

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The trackpad is very easy to use, [...] Zooming is done via two-finger swipe & selectable modifier.

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Or in some cases, pinch/expand to zoom in/out, like on iDevices.

Quote c0ff:

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I don't own a TrackPad, but most likely, the issue you describe is a latency.

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Not entirely convinced. I have various Bluetooth mice, which all respond just fine.

I'd be surprised if Bluetooth was significantly delaying stuff. Can you cite any references for figures in milliseconds ?

One case where TrackPad has a known delay is if you have one-finger dragging enabled (which is lovely), then tap-to-click (which is also lovely) if enabled is delayed slightly - about 0.3 seconds by my estimate.



I have a feeling this is a fundamental aspect of the system distinguishing between the gestures, as opposed to a software bug that could be fixed.

It applies equally to the Magic Trackpad and the MBP laptop trackpad.

I've been using mice since I got my Amiga 500 back in the 80s, I was about 4. I've always used mice.

In September of last year I switched to a Kensington Expert Mouse and haven't looked back. Its comfortable to use and takes up only the space required by the unit, a mouse of course (depending on your cursor speed) can take up almost half a desk. I know a few people who have tried mine and like it, I love it. Customisation options are really nice as well.

I have a friend who used the Magic Trackpad and got terrible wrist pains after about a week...

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My Site: Website design in Wiltshire

Blimey - I've just now googled this Kensington Expert "mouse" of which you guys speak, to find it's actually a trackball !

Or have I got this wrong ?

Personally I hate trackballs (and imagine they'd give me wrist pains after a week)

I love the Trackpad.

Quote chris...:

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Quote Tui:

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The trackpad is very easy to use, [...] Zooming is done via two-finger swipe & selectable modifier.

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Or in some cases, pinch/expand to zoom in/out, like on iDevices.

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Yes, there are two types of zoom.

Quote chris...:

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One case where TrackPad has a known delay is if you have one-finger dragging enabled (which is lovely), then tap-to-click (which is also lovely) if enabled is delayed slightly - about 0.3 seconds by my estimate.

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To follow up my own post, I've been discussing this for 10.5 / 10.6. For 10.7 it looks like one-finger dragging is gone, and we are left with 3-finger dragging option.

So I guess I'll need to get used to 3-finger dragging. At least this means tap-to-click will be instant again. Unfortunately, I love one finger dragging for soft synths that have onscreen XY pads. Alchemy is a great example. I find manipulating the Alchemy XY pads with one-finger-dragging to be comparable or better than dedicated hardware controllers (and this is on the laptop trackpad, so no extra hardware to carry). Not sure 3-finger dragging is going to be as pleasant.

Sorry to follow-up my own post again.

It seems one-finger dragging IS available in Lion - it's no longer in Trackpad prefs, and is now in:

Universal Access / Mouse & Trackpad / Trackpad options

Quote Tui:

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When using it with the Mac Pro, there's no latency whatsoever, and commands are executed very smoothly.

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Good to hear. Though I'm also using it on a MacPro with the above-mentioned latency present.

Quote chris...:

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One case where TrackPad has a known delay is if you have one-finger dragging enabled (which is lovely), then tap-to-click (which is also lovely) if enabled is delayed slightly - about 0.3 seconds by my estimate.

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Correct also. Just checked my preferences though, and dragging is disabled, meaning that I have to actually 'press' the trackpad to drag, but the latency is still present. However, oddly enough, "Tap To Click" was also disabled, but the tapping was clearly working. Enabling and disabling it seemed to reset it. Very odd!

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I love technology; it complicates my life...

Whoa... in my trackpad preferences "Tap to Click" is enabled, but "Dragging" is not. Guess what? I can still drag...

I'm replicating my problem with latency as follows: With the above-mentioned preferences active/inactive, I use the trackpad to drag a window. When I release the trackpad, my Expert Mouse (yes, it's a trackball! Sacrilege ) is still able to move the window about for .5 seconds or so, before the gesture change has been recognized and 'dragging' (which is not supposed to be activated anyway) ceases to function.

Always been like this. MacPro now, was on an iMac earlier this year. Software incompatibility? A bug? I always thought that's the way the trackpad worked. Only now that this discussion is going on, have I really taken the time to identify this problem.

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I love technology; it complicates my life...

Quote chris...:

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Quote c0ff:

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I don't own a TrackPad, but most likely, the issue you describe is a latency.

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Not entirely convinced. I have various Bluetooth mice, which all respond just fine.

I'd be surprised if Bluetooth was significantly delaying stuff. Can you cite any references for figures in milliseconds ?

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Sorry, I don't have numbers. I've seen both high and low latency situations with Bluetooth mice, and what I learned on various forums, it may depend on mutual antennas arrangement and local wireless interference situation.
Also, personal sensitivity may play a role as well. I won't suggest to play a first-person shooter deathmatch on a Bluetooth mouse.

Quote clisma:

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I'm replicating my problem with latency as follows: With the above-mentioned preferences active/inactive, I use the trackpad to drag a window. When I release the trackpad, my Expert Mouse (yes, it's a trackball! Sacrilege ) is still able to move the window about for .5 seconds or so, before the gesture change has been recognized and 'dragging' (which is not supposed to be activated anyway) ceases to function.

Always been like this. MacPro now, was on an iMac earlier this year. Software incompatibility? A bug? I always thought that's the way the trackpad worked. Only now that this discussion is going on, have I really taken the time to identify this problem.

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Oh, now I understand what you mean. Yes, there is something odd about the way the trackpad does, or does not, release dragged windows. I haven't quite figured out what the rules are, they might no be consistent anyway. To release a window, I find I sometimes need to single-tap on the window, before moving the cursor. Is this intentional, or a bug? I have no idea.

Apart from such minor niggles, replacing mice and trackballs with trackpads has made my computing experience a great deal more enjoyable. Mice and trackballs seem clumsy by comparison.

Quote Tui:

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Apart from such minor niggles, replacing mice and trackballs with trackpads has made my computing experience a great deal more enjoyable. Mice and trackballs seem clumsy by comparison.

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Absolutely. I tried several trackpads by other manufacturers before the Magic Trackpad had come out, and none came even close to the precision, smooth feel and myriad of multitouch gestures available with the Magic Trackpad. Love it. Everything but the name, that is.

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I love technology; it complicates my life...

Quote Tui:

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there is something odd about the way the trackpad does, or does not, release dragged windows. I haven't quite figured out what the rules are, they might no be consistent anyway. To release a window, I find I sometimes need to single-tap on the window, before moving the cursor.

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As far as I can tell, with "one-finger-dragging" enabled, drag mode is consistently released about 0.5s after you take finger off the pad.

Unless that is, you also enable "drag lock" option, the effect of which is lock the pad in drag mode, until you make a single tap to release it.

Both these modes are completely consistent for me, on both MBP trackpad and Magic Trackpad.

So maybe there's a bug then. I use three-finger dragging, which excludes one-finger dragging and locking. However, on some occasions, windows are not released by simply lifting my fingers. Sometimes, I need to single-tap to release them. I've noticed this inconsistent behaviour on both MBP and Mac Pro.

I never finished off here - so I'll do so by saying I got a Kensington Expert Mouse (trackball, really) and after a few days of use I seem to be getting on well with it. I've got the scroll wheel working on vertical by default, and in combination with Shift it work horizontally. My only complaint is the roughness of the movement of the scroll wheel, but otherwise it's a nice device and worth the money I think.

Perhaps I'll try a trackpad later...

Cheers for all the input, folks.