I was always looking for an analog style filter/sampler, and have looked at the Emax, and dedicated filter boxes, but now thing that a Roland synth would be a good idea as it has an Audio Input for running VST's through the filter, and its filter is analog with TVF and TVA for that gating type sound..

Would the SH-09 be best for this? as I believe the 101 never had a filter input at all..

I know it would be mono, but its apparently a nice filter, and i think the Sh1 Sh2 also had this facility but they obviously cost a little more.

Thanks

The filter on the SH101 robs the low end quite a lot when you turn the resonance up (at least it does on mine), other than that it's good. I don't know how it compares to the other SH-series synths.

Moog filter

Mooger Fooger pedal

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Website / Music Lab Machines / Blog

Thanks but does this moog have the TVF and TVA on it?

The emax has this and the SH09 and also in the Morgana vst by 112db

I'm sure this gives the filter it's gating sound of the filter opening and closing to produce that effect?

4-Pole with Manual or Input trigger. Love mine.

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I'm All Ears.

Quote Pitchfork:

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Thanks but does this moog have the TVF and TVA on it?

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As far as I know, TVF ("Time variant filter") and TVA ("Time variant amplifier") refer to Roland's mid/late 80s way of doing this digitally in the S & W series samplers - never seen it anywhere else. Typically old analogue kit uses the terms VCF and VCA for Voltage Controlled Filter/Amplifier.

However, if by those you mean filters and amplifiers with envelope shaping of the filter cutoff, the answer is it's pretty common, on old monosynths at least.

Basically, if you buy an old mono with an input, you have a couple of different scenarios: either the input just goes to the mixer, or it goes through the filter. If it goes through the filter, you may be able to use the signal's overall level to control the cutoff of the filter - or not, depending on the synth you're using the filter of. THe SH-09, for example, does have an envelope follower, which means the volume of the input will sweep the filter up and down as it gets louder and quieter.

Standalone filters also may or may not have this feature.

As for the amplifier, typically the filter will be gated on by the keys of the synth, or external gate input, not the sound you're running into the filter. Again that depends on what gear you're using.

The Moogerfooger has an envelope follower. It's controlled with the knob marked "envelope" on the front panel.

Quote nathanscribe:

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Quote Pitchfork:

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Thanks but does this moog have the TVF and TVA on it?

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As far as I know, TVF ("Time variant filter") and TVA ("Time variant amplifier") refer to Roland's mid/late 80s way of doing this digitally in the S & W series samplers - never seen it anywhere else. Typically old analogue kit uses the terms VCF and VCA for Voltage Controlled Filter/Amplifier.

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Your right, I was getting it wrong! it is VCF and VCA that gives this almost gating type sound with just the filter running which I like...

The models I mentioned, have this (I think the SH09 too), so can most filters do this?

As an alternative, you can build it as a very small analogue modular synth (it may cost less than some pre-patched synths and you can choose all the components, in particular you have many filter options).
Module choice obviously depends on what you want to do with it exactly. For example you can build an envelope filter (like the famous Mu-tron filter) with 3 modules: audio input, envelope follower, filter

Best
-j

Quote Bob Moose:

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As an alternative, you can build it as a very small analogue modular synth (it may cost less than some pre-patched synths and you can choose all the components, in particular you have many filter options).
Module choice obviously depends on what you want to do with it exactly. For example you can build an envelope filter (like the famous Mu-tron filter) with 3 modules: audio input, envelope follower, filter

Best
-j

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Bob, I wish I could, then I could have maybe a 12-bit sound, some grunge and pick the filter - but as I have trouble wiring a plug, I think this is way out of my league unfortunately!

Quote Bob Moose:

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For example you can build an envelope filter (like the famous Mu-tron filter)

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I'm All Ears.

I wish I could build this! especially as these are now upwards of £1000 s/h!?

You can't go wrong with the Moog and Waldorf filters. They are real fun and pretty potent.

I have had Mutators in the past and they are fun too. Sherman is what you want if you're into both extreme and sound design.

Failing that, any of the old synths with audio ins will be useful. Alternatively, and if you have a modular system, then a dedicated filter module would be cool. There are many in this dept that would fit the bill.

Filters on synths can have a great impact on sound so long as you ignore the rubbish names that manufacturers like to give them.

The original Emax had lovely warm filters, Ensoniq EPS had that throaty snappy filter, Roland always went for smooth with variable slopes, anything Russian would make your eyes bleed (Polyvoks)and so on. However, the older gear had some great filters. The SH09 was nice but not an earth mover although the SH3a was a different kettle of fish and highly underrated and cost little more than the 09 in sec hand. The, wait for this, Peavey (if you can find one) filter bank had a lovely smooth slope and was gorgeous on pads and the like. MS20 sounds nice but you would need to buy the whole beast to use it, same as the ASR10....

I could go on all day as I'm a synth slut, but apparently I have to work. Wife says it would be nice to eat meat this month.

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Samplecraze
Stretch That Note

Quote Zukan:

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MS20 sounds nice but you would need to buy the whole beast to use it, same as the ASR10....

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You can get a DP4 which will give you the ASR filter (amongst many other goodies and *that* phaser)

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I'm All Ears.

Thanks for this, I'd be looking for filtering and mangling long pads for ambient stuff, rather like Irresistible Force does on his albums, "Flying High" and "Global Chillage"

I think both of these were done with an Emax and its filter, so it sounds nice and warm, but in todays market, it would be great to put an Emax style analog filter on the end of say Ableton with its own FX, using the VCF and VCA on a filter (I have ahd 2 Emax SE's by the way and although nice, are fiddly and limited by today's standards)

I have thought of the Sherman, but instead of warm, every single demo shows how distorted and nasty it sounds, which is the opposite of what I want.. The SH-09 sounds ok, but I bet there is better out there..

I'd love to do some hands on knob twiddling while the sound is playing so not so bothered about MIDI and automation.

The Morgana by 112db VSTi has some controls and similar analog sound, which I like, but its not that flexible, and crashes somewhat. So something analog and hardware would be nice. Its just trying to track down online demo's or youtube videos to hear all these

Edited by Pitchfork (11/10/11 10:15 AM)

You could also investigate stomp box territory - Electro Harmonix have a wide range of envelope filters and a good reputation to go with them:

www.ehx.com/browse/envelope-filters


Martin

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YewTreeMagic

However, if you want to get into gated, filtered audio signals you’ll need to be able to link the unit to a sequencer - perhaps Doepfer’s Dark Energy would fit the bill, as it’s got an audio input and squelchy filters?

Paul Nagle certainly approved of its filters in his SOS review:

“The 24dB/octave filter should certainly test the ears of those who adamantly declare that only discrete circuits can sound sweet. With its pleasing, even response and a resonance that wails like a tripping ocelot, the filter should serve as a potent reminder that real analogue isn’t pushing up the daisies just yet.”

www.soundonsound.com/sos/jan10/articles/doepferdarkenergy.htm

Thomann currently have it at just £326 inc VAT


Martin

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YewTreeMagic

I had some fun running a D10 through a Monotron, but it only has the LFO to control the cut off, so not exactly what you want.

The Novation Basstation Rack also has an input, but not sure if it is controlled by the envelopes. The filter is pretty dirty to my recollection.

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http://soundcloud.com/richie-royale
http://www.mixcrate.com/richieroyale

I will have to check some of these out, and have only just discovered the VCF and VCA in the Morgana VST sampler, which is nice (and which I remember from the E-Max) that it sort of bubbles and gates/dips the sound as you wiggle the knobs (not sure on the exact science of these envelopes) but its an interesting sound..

Hopefully as mentioned, these would be included as knobs/sliders on older analog filters/keyboards to run sounds through?

I'm basically looking for a warm analog Emax Filter to run sounds through without having the keyboard or rack!

Quote Martin Walker:

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However, if you want to get into gated, filtered audio signals you’ll need to be able to link the unit to a sequencer - perhaps Doepfer’s Dark Energy would fit the bill, as it’s got an audio input and squelchy filters?

Paul Nagle certainly approved of its filters in his SOS review:

“The 24dB/octave filter should certainly test the ears of those who adamantly declare that only discrete circuits can sound sweet. With its pleasing, even response and a resonance that wails like a tripping ocelot, the filter should serve as a potent reminder that real analogue isn’t pushing up the daisies just yet.”

www.soundonsound.com/sos/jan10/articles/doepferdarkenergy.htm

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I would advise caution with the dark energy. Very well constructed synth, especially for the price, but it doesn't actually sound very good imo...

Quote johnny h:

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Quote Martin Walker:

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However, if you want to get into gated, filtered audio signals you’ll need to be able to link the unit to a sequencer - perhaps Doepfer’s Dark Energy would fit the bill, as it’s got an audio input and squelchy filters?

Paul Nagle certainly approved of its filters in his SOS review:

“The 24dB/octave filter should certainly test the ears of those who adamantly declare that only discrete circuits can sound sweet. With its pleasing, even response and a resonance that wails like a tripping ocelot, the filter should serve as a potent reminder that real analogue isn’t pushing up the daisies just yet.”

www.soundonsound.com/sos/jan10/articles/doepferdarkenergy.htm

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I'd heard exactly the same that it wasn't that good I'm afraid so it maybe something I'll give a miss
I would advise caution with the dark energy. Very well constructed synth, especially for the price, but it doesn't actually sound very good imo...

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I'd suggest the "little modular" route also - you can put several filters in one of those mini boxes and add envelope followers, LFOs etc. to taste. Some great choices of filter in Eurorack format.

One of my personal favourite "process anything" filters is the Xone VF-1. Pretty sure I saw one of these in the SOS ads for around £150 and was very tempted to buy a second one. It's stereo too and very smooth, with valve overdrive too.

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http://www.bogusfocus.com/

Quote Paul Nagle:

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I'd suggest the "little modular" route also - you can put several filters in one of those mini boxes and add envelope followers, LFOs etc. to taste. Some great choices of filter in Eurorack format.

One of my personal favourite "process anything" filters is the Xone VF-1. Pretty sure I saw one of these in the SOS ads for around £150 and was very tempted to buy a second one. It's stereo too and very smooth, with valve overdrive too.

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That sounds nice, and it does the VCF and VCA filtering? does this sound smooth and thick/analog instead of distortion which alot of the boxes seem to do these days!

It's definitely smooth and fab-sounding without adding massive amounts of colour. Some might see that as a disadvantage I guess but I find it perfect for much of my external processing of loops etc. from Logic. If you want 24dB you have to switch to mono but for most general purpose filtering 24dB is often too much. Similarly it has MIDI control (I confess I never use this) and I'm pretty sure you can get gating via MIDI or at least some kind of on/off action. I really should read my own review.
The overdrive is very nice and you can have a little or a lot - you don't have to use it at all.

A much underrated piece of kit I'd say, I'd have not known anything about it if one didn't arrive for review but I'm jolly glad it did.

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http://www.bogusfocus.com/

Quote Zukan:

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MS20 sounds nice but you would need to buy the whole beast to use it....

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You can always buy eurorack modules in a small case. You can get the MS20 filter here

Still love the SEM style filter on my Telemark.. LP/BP/HP and patchable inputs



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MBP 17", PC 100(Nubus Protools) Motu 896, X-Station, Logic9, Reason6, Korg legacy, ACE, Alchemy, Emax II, E-Synth, Evolver MEK, Waldorf Pulse and Blofeld, AS Telemark, AS Leipzig-S

Ah, the Nagle has landed

Do you want to stand by your positive words about the Dark Energy filters in your SOS review, or have you changed your mind?


Martin

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YewTreeMagic

I do like the sound of the Dark Energy filter and got some great squelchy acid sounds from it. But if I had to choose a little synth with a great filter it'd be the Vermona Mono Lancet. It has an awesome Moogy sound and its filter happens to fit my taste better. The downside is that you need the modular expansion to access it, never tried that myself alas.
A +1 to the Analogue Solutions MS20 filter. Totally excellent. I had the rack version briefly but for some reason it never sounded as good - Filtered Coffee was it called? Sorry, rambling now...

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http://www.bogusfocus.com/

Quote Pitchfork:

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Bob, I wish I could, then I could have maybe a 12-bit sound, some grunge and pick the filter - but as I have trouble wiring a plug, I think this is way out of my league unfortunately!

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Oops, sorry I was actually talking about ready-to-use modules, like Eurorack modules. You do not have to wire anything, only to plug patch cables between modules.

The stombox solution is great too. Look for envelope filters, some of them are really good. Most of the time they have a limited frequency sweep range, but it may be ok for your applications. For example check the EHX Q-tron series, the Lovetone Meatball, the Barge Grinder, the 3Leaf GR2, the Mu-tron 3 filter (second hand of course) and the Maxon AF-9.
The differences between stomboxes are: available filter modes (LPF, BPF, HPF, etc); optical filter or not; filter slope (usually 12dB/oct on pedals); frequency sweep range(s); envelope direction switch; presence of attack, decay and resonance controls. Some models have a side-chain input that can often be useful.

-j

Its a shame there isnt a hardware stand-alone box for the Emax filters as they are very popular and analog with that warm creamy sound, without getting the full keyboard

I think they are SSM? but am not sure where you would get those analog filters today in a filter box?

I quite like the sound of the Dark Energy. Both as a synth and it's filter alone. But I guess we all have our own preferences.

Quote TrickyDicky:

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I think they are SSM? but am not sure where you would get those analog filters today in a filter box?

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You could well be right. I think there are a few variations of the SSM based filter though. But fortunately parts for some of them at least are not impossible to get. I've built a few Shruthi-1 monosynths, and these can be configured with various different analogue filter boards. And I chose to make one with the SSM2044.
http://mutable-instruments.net/shruthi1
The same company also came up with the Sidekick, which can take the same filter boards as the Shruthi synth. This is basically a filter box with added shenanigans for extra sonic tomfoolery. I've not built one of these yet though..
http://mutable-instruments.net/sidekick

But yes, it's another DIY job im afraid. Although you do occasionally find prebuilt ones on the site for sale.

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Paul

Thats interesting..

So how much are these 'kits' and how much would it cost to get one built?

I think this is the SSM Filter that the Emax has : SSM2044

http://mutable-instruments.net/shruthi1/build/ssm2044

Is this what you are saying is in the two build kits that you linked to? The "Sidekick" seems to be the slightly better and more intriguing of the two..

If this was an exact analog SSM chip then it would literally be the "filterbox" part module from the Emax!! - I take it these have analog ins and outs to process signals? (or maybe mono?)

Hi Pitchfork. Yes there are 2 different products, but both can use the same analogue filter boards. The Shruthi-1 is a hybrid (digital & analogue) mono synth. Where as the Sidekick is not really a synth, and more of a filter box, but with LFO's that can go into the audio spectrum, so I think it can be useful as a standalone 100% analogue drone box too.

Both Sidekick & Shruthi have analogue inputs, so you can filter anything you like. But the sidekick has no midi control, unlike the Shruthi, which has full midi control of everything, including it's filter.

And yes, it's a real SSM in there In fact there are 2 SSM's in there, but the other is a more commonly available part used for VCA duties.

The hard part is getting one! Neither Sidekick or Shruthi-1 with SSM are available as kits. You buy the PCB's then source the rest yourself, which will involve 3 or 4 different suppliers.
I've not built a Sidekick yet. But the Shruthi-1 with SSM that I built probably ran me around £200'ish. Secondhand ones occasionally crop up, but will usually go for a little more. And new ones built by Mutable Instruments are more, maybe £280+, I don't recall now. but they don't appear on there very often.

I've built 3 Shruthi's (actually 5, but I sold 2). One with the standard SMR-4 filter, which actually sounds really good. Another with the Roland IR-3109 based filter, which has a very nice recognisable character (and is perhaps my favourite of the 3). And of course the SSM. Which is nice and characterful, but not my favourite.

Incidentally, both Shruthi and Sidekick are mono.

Hope that helps!

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Paul

Just get a mini modular case or something, a bunch of different filter modules, some evn's, LFO, env followers (if you are that way inclined) and a MIDI/CV gate converter to trigger the env's and off you go.

They look pretty snazzy


No one mentioned the Akai MFC-42... sounds alright that does.

I hated the Dark Energy... Horrid sounding one osc that always seemed to be over driving, over powering something, really not to my taste.. too much emphasis on "Moog" and analogue "phat" done badly.
Filter was probs the only good bit on it and...meh

Edited by vinyl_junkie (15/10/11 11:05 PM)

Quote vinyl_junkie:

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I hated the Dark Energy... Horrid sounding one osc that always seemed to be over driving, over powering something, really not to my taste.. too much emphasis on "Moog" and analogue "phat" done badly.
Filter was probs the only good bit on it and...meh

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I agree totally. I actually think the Moog filters are way overrated. They are nice and smooth, very American sounding, but they don't have the snap and bite of say, the MS20 or the old Rolands.

You can use the Monotron as an external filter, and it is a great sounding one. It is pretty noisy though, and you can't control it externally without modding. Hopefully Korg will bring out some new MS20 inspired analogue goodness soon with full midi control...

When my friend moved house earlier this year I had pretty much all his gear until he got settled which meant I had a chance to familiarize my self with some things a lot better being in my own environment and what have you.

One of the things I did have a play on was his Doefper A-100 modular system, can't remember the module names but there was a high end Doepfer dual vco which sounded quite Moogy (I actually think it used the same CEM VCO chip as the 101! albeit it sounded way different) and a Analogue Solutions dual VCO module which sounded more Rolandy' when comparing both OSC's to his SH-101... Also fitted was a SSM filter and a Doepfer MS-20 inspired one. Last but not least I had two Dark Energy's as we both had one (Now both sold)

The MS-20 filter sounded amazing if you like that sort of thing, it could self oscillate and resonate till the seas boil lol
Loved making strange sounds with it... One night I had to take my headphones off thinking is that sound coming from outside or something hahah

Quote johnny h:

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Quote vinyl_junkie:

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I hated the Dark Energy... Horrid sounding one osc that always seemed to be over driving, over powering something, really not to my taste.. too much emphasis on "Moog" and analogue "phat" done badly.
Filter was probs the only good bit on it and...meh

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I agree totally. I actually think the Moog filters are way overrated. They are nice and smooth, very American sounding, but they don't have the snap and bite of say, the MS20 or the old Rolands.

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You may like the Moog sound or not, but the Dark Energy does not have a Moog filter and sounds very different in my opinion.

Also, talking about the Moog filters, they all sound quite different. For example, check the Moog 904A (http://www.moogarchives.com/m904a.htm), the Minimoog filter and the Moogerfooger MF101.

I think there is no universal filter. For example, you may not use the same filter for processing instruments (bass, guitar, piano, etc) and for "bass" sound synthesis. Processing instruments usually requires an optical filter, but on these filters the cutoff cannot change as fast as on non-optical ones.

Finally, the same filter can react very differently depending on which envelope (or envelope follower) you are using for controlling the cutoff.

Best
-j

Quote Bob Moose:

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Finally, the same filter can react very differently depending on which envelope (or envelope follower) you are using for controlling the cutoff.

Best
-j

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Absolutely, one of the things I love about the SH-101 is how quick and nice the envelope sounds esp when you modulate the filter with it... I may get a similar sound on another synth but as soon as you apply that env mod and keyboard tracking on the 101 it gets very hard to nail that sound on another synth.
Also the JX-3P uses the same filter chip as the Juno-60 albeit way different sounding beasts

Love my SH-09 filter, but maybe this is the way to go...

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh! Now I DO need to buy a lunchbox. 1073 pre & EQ, Moog ladder, and an SSL bus compressor. Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.

Don’t get caught out trying to mix and match lunchbox modules with those from the various modular synth manufacturers, however compatible they appear to look dimensionally.

Even if the PSU voltages are the same they all tend to have different audio/control voltage specs, PSU connectors and so on. However, synth filter modules do tend to be priced rather cheaper than Lunchbox modules

That Moog module is rare for being a synth filter in Lunchbox format


Martin

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YewTreeMagic

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Samplecraze
Stretch That Note