Hi all,

Having recently been convinced with first hand evidence that you can get a stupendously meaty rhythm guitar tone through the judicious use of heavy gauge strings, I've decided to get some. However, I'd want to know if the guitar in question can take the strain before I just bang the things on. My brother's let me have his slightly battered Epi SG (g-310 model) as he never uses it (and can't get the thing to stay in tune, but I reckon good winding technique and if nothing else, tuning every take will help a little). Reckon it could handle 12s, or even 13s? From my understanding, it helps to have an absolute baseball bat of a neck in order to have high gauge strings at standard tuning, and I'll obviously get the truss rod sorted etc. It's had 9 or 10s on, I think, and has been sat unused for a year or so. Am I better getting a few sets and stepping up the tension over a few string changes, or am I alright to just go straight to the high gauge? I'd probably go for the 12s, fwiw

Cheers,

Jack

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Freelance Producer/ Engineer/ Musician
www.jackbyrne.co.uk

i'm no tech but i would get yourself down to one... not only will you need the truss rod adjusting to prevent the extra tension warping the neck, you'll also find the intonation needs to be redone as well as the nut being recut to accommodate the extra width. all in all, simpler and quicker to get a proper tech to do it - five minute job for someone with the right tools and knowledge.

also consider whether you want straight 12s or "bottom heavy" ones. i use D'Addario Heavy (12 16 20p 32 42 54 ) but you could go for their Medium Top Extra Heavy Bottom (11 14 19p 32 44 56), which would give you tons of meat on the lower strings whilst saving your fingers a bit on the top. seriously, trying to do whole tone bends on a 20 gauge G will *destroy* your fingers until you've gotten used to it. or of course you could go the other way, to Extra Heavy (12 16 20p 34 46 60). so there are options.

all that said, i've no regrets about heavier gauge. just go straight for it rather than stepping up - nothing like throwing yourself in at the deep end. plus it saves you multiple trips to your tech, although i'm sure they'd appreciate the extra income

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hourglass | random thoughts | doubledotdash!? collective

I've found Ernie Ball Power Slinky (11-48) are about the best compromise for me. Heavy enough to get nice tone, and not so heavy that I can't still easily get 2-3 semitones of bend out of them.

Don't get too heavy strings, as they will be bending your neck, which could have permanent consequences (unless you're tuning down). You can get a meaty tone, but I think it won't be a big difference, if you're staying on the same tuning. But If you are tuning down, that's another case. Drop your guitar To G# and you'll turn vegetarian.

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www.facebook.com/nightredmetal

There are a few options for heavy strings, such as those from DR or Dean Markley or Rotosound.

Heavier strings DOES NOT mean higher tension than you're already used to.

However, putting thicker strings on often means overhauling the guitar. At the least, you'll likely need to have the nut slots overcut. As often as not, the pass-through holes at the bridge end may need to be enlarged. And the tuning pegs on an electric might not be ready for an .056 (much less the .065 on an Everly 9113 or DR DDT set). Saddles too might need cutting-out. And moving back up to a standard electric set would mean replacing a few parts....

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resident troublemaker, http://forum.frugalguitarist.com/

Quote Tony Raven:

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Heavier strings DOES NOT mean higher tension than you're already used to.

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Really?

Frequency of a vibrating string or wire is determined by:

Freq = Squareroot(Tension/UnitMass) / (2 x Length)

If Freq and Length are to remain the same (no change to scale length and tuning) then the value of Tension/UnitMass must remain the same. So if you fit a thicker string you get an increase in unit mass which means that you must get a corresponding increase in tension.

Regards,

Grant.

(edited to correct spelling)

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I've never liked a solo violin, you need at least five for a proper fire.

Edited by RhinoTime (29/09/11 08:54 AM)

I have to run a day of errands so only have a few minutes, & can't yet offer any citations, but this is certainly worth exploring -- one reason I love this site is to hear from people with better maths than me.

So, okay, from my scattered memory, I recall (however dubiously) that typical string tension on an acoustic guitar is something like 7-12 kg/string -- interestingly, with many sets it's the A that's highest.

Generally, yes, higher mass-per-length requires higher tension to attain a given pitch. But this simple linearity frays. Like, the Ernie Ball "Extra Slinky" set has a .038 E, while their "Power Slinky" has an .038 A -- if the mass/length ratio were at all strict, then that A would have to be significantly tighter than the E.

But it's not simply that Ernie Ball has one factory line that turns out .038 wound strings, & throws them willy-nilly into either set. Firstly, they have different core gauges. And I suspect the core material could have different properties as well; if you've ever tried to substitute another maker's strings for your favourite set, even though all six have the same gauge, you might note that some (even all) of the strings feel "harder" or "softer" under your fingers.

For bass, I know that D'Addario makes "soft" string sets. (Heavens, we could use some sort of Consumer Reports lab for stuff like this, comparing tension between brands....)

My experience (fwiw) is that heavier strings DO often require a higher action because there's more mass flopping around. This incremental raising thus requires more pressure to fret.

To change the subject slightly, when I've been playing a fairly heavy electric set for a while (like .011), then switch off to a guitar strung light (say .008), my fingertips rebel. I've even cut into the callus, without a whole lot of wild bends or wipes. So the impression is that the lighter strings can actually be more painful until I adapt.

To a lesser degree, something similar happens when I switch from a 5-string bass (with lots of work on the low B) to a medium-strung 4.

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resident troublemaker, http://forum.frugalguitarist.com/

Quote Tony Raven:

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Generally, yes, higher mass-per-length requires higher tension to attain a given pitch. But this simple linearity frays. Like, the Ernie Ball "Extra Slinky" set has a .038 E, while their "Power Slinky" has an .038 A -- if the mass/length ratio were at all strict, then that A would have to be significantly tighter than the E.

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Well, if the exact same string is used then it would need to be about 15% tighter. I suspect that if it were measured accurately you'd find that the measured numbers were in the ballpark. So if all the strings across the neck were similarly increeased then the overall tension would increase by 15%, which would be enough to need restiing reliaf for some guitars, but maybe perfectly fine with another stronger neck. (Hooke's law in action: within elastic limit deformation is proportional to applied force)

I'd disagree about the linearity thing, vibration at the macro scale is simple to model and the equation works, so a thicker sting of the same geometry and composition will always have more mass for a given frequency and therefore more tension. Can't get away from that. You can maybe vary this a little by changing the shape of the core/winding or using an alloy of different mass, but I don't think either would be varied enough to offset the tension completely without compromising other characteristics.

I'd suggest that what you're feeling as less increase in tension is more about the flexibility of the string. We have wound strings because a solid one would be too stiff to vibrate much, but it would vibrate at the same frequency as the equivalent wound string. So if we make two strings with a different gauges but make the cores of the heavier gauge string smaller we will get a pair of string which could tune to the same note and maybe not feel much different to the fingers, but the tension on the heavier gauge string will be greater.

Regards,

Grant.

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I've never liked a solo violin, you need at least five for a proper fire.

I personally haven't seen much use for anything past 12s, it doesn't miraculously get heavier by that much. I did play 13s for a while (copying Stevie Ray Vaughn) and you'd need a new setup for that (truss adjustment, bridge height, sometimes even new nut, intonation).

I went back to 10s and honestly can't say the difference was that much to warrant the extra work of the 12s/13s. Granted - it'd be nice to have an extra guitar strung that way for big power chord overdubs and such but it's not a dealbreaker for me. For the most part I am on 10s/11s, and occasionally go down to 8s on one of my spare guitar which flies for leads in comparison.

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www.descentintomadness.com

Quote 4TrackMadman:

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Granted - it'd be nice to have an extra guitar strung that way for big power chord overdubs and such but it's not a dealbreaker for me. For the most part I am on 10s/11s, and occasionally go down to 8s on one of my spare guitar which flies for leads in comparison.

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That is pretty much the only reason for doing this. I've got a spare (and importantly, FREEE!!!!) guitar to use for this, and I've both heard and played the effect that using higher gauge strings makes, especially in the microscopic accuracy of the recording studio situation. We deal so much with tiny things that add up to the overall finished product, so it seems like a good thing to have in my box of tools. Plus, it's always nice to turn up at a session with a band and be like 'Hey, try this random guitar I've got, try this odd pedal that some guy in a shed made'.

Appreciate all the help guys. Still one question remaining though: reckon the Epi neck can take it? It's a fairly cheap model, and I can't get any particularly detailed specs from their site

Ta
Jack

The neck will but probably will have to modify the nut as it might not fit on the low E.

I'd still say go with 12s and don't bother going higher

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www.descentintomadness.com