Quote Hugh Robjohns:

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I think it is important to inform potential students about the huge challenges ahead and the realities of the industry at large, but simply shouting that there is no work and no one will succeed is just idiotic and easily disproved by all those that do succeed... even if you can count them on the fingers of a few hands.

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They don't need encouraging.

And it's far from idiotic - you're taking a pedantic view literally affixing no-one to mean no people. Of course 4 or 5 will succeed. That isn't a reason to give even 1% endorsement to the current "educashun" system.

Quote Hugh Robjohns:

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I want to encourage those people, while simultaneously discouraging those without the right attitude. Your comments, and all those similar preceding ones, do the latter very well, but not the former. Let's encourage and empower those who will succeed us one day!

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Yes, but two points:

- when saying there wasn't a viable recording industry, I should have qualified that as the "big studio/rich investing label" industry that served the once-burgeoning 'pop' industry, which appears to be the aspiration of most of the Music Tech course fodder. As you both point out, in the wake of that industry, there are innumerable other ways of 'getting involved' in music & media in slightly different directions, and that was my point too really - widen your definition of "success"

- the negative comments simply won't put off the ambitious people at all. If this sort of talk puts them off, they are almost by definition not going to make it, coz there is far worse dissuasion to come!

Quote Billum:

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...the negative comments simply won't put off the ambitious people at all.

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Probably not... but it might sew strong seeds of doubt. More importantly in the context of this particular thread, it might give parents an unfair perspective and reduce their willingness to support a potentially very talented student.

hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Quote narcoman:

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That isn't a reason to give even 1% endorsement to the current "educashun" system.

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I wasn't refering to the education system specifically, and I think we're already singng fromthe same hymn sheet where that is concerned. We all agree that the current arrangements are deeply flawed in so many ways and the whole thing needs to be changed radically.

hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Quote The Red Bladder:

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You may have noticed that we are possibly heading right down into a massive depression. Greece will probably default totally on its bonds and the Germanic-Gothic 'Pleitegeier' (the vulture of poverty) is beating its wings over Italy and Spain. If Greece and Italy collapse into chaos, denuded of Euros and with nothing to replace it, we may have yet another war in Europe. The last thing we need is more ProTools operators!

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haha

Looking on the bright side, at least there won't be any shortage of Propaganda...

Or you could always convince the military to make some computer controlled tanks and planes and such which are controlled via Pro Tools from some cave somewhere, but then perhaps those Pro Tools operators are better on the front lines where some of them might get taken out... Schooling for Pro Tools??? People actually pay money for that??? scary stuff...


Is it the chicken or the egg though?? Are these programs being offered to simply grab money, or, are they being offered as a means to appease the people who keep filling them?? Governments seemingly only care about 51%, so long as that amount is happy they are winning right... When has there been any onus or motivation for anyone to do anything but make money, surely these schools doing the right thing would initiate a catastrophic series of events that would surely run your Country to its demise. Could you imagine them being proactive and taking the initiative to make the necessary change instead of waiting and reacting once it's past the point?? ... probably already is

It's just one of those things, the total over glorification of industries has basically cut their noses off to spite their face... People watch TV, see how cool it looks to be a Cop, or whatever, good or bad, get into it, and eventually become robotic because it's totally different in reality... Build em up, break em down, keeps em in line better that way i guess... I mean why educate people when we can keep them stupid, much easier to lift their wallet from their back pocket that way...

Anyhoo, i know the media loves to bang on about the recession and depression and how bad it is, but, the reality is that the baby boomers are getting older and nearing retirement and sadly, at least i know our society, has sort of dropped the ball on preparing and educating the next wave of those employees, managers, bosses etc. to keep it clicking along... I wonder if it is the same over there??? Wouldn't a forward thinking society be preparing itself for that???

A thought i had the other day, would be to make every college or University take half of the tuition fee and require every student to start their own business with that money instead and to run that for the time they are in school, it sure would teach people a lot of stuff the school won't and would contribute to the economy at the same time, of course, they might not be able to build that new fancy wing as soon as possible and their glorious funding might not come through as thick...

Quote narcoman:

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VO on its own is much bigger than the whole record label business.

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What's VO?

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Spanky

voice over. not to be confused with BO.

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I'm All Ears.

Quote ken long:

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voice over. not to be confused with BO.

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Or indeed....L O.

Dave.

or FO.


hohoho...

VO - the biggest sector in recoding and an area where those doing pro work still charge £1k a day for the studio.

I'm 2x years old and have done these courses, I'm embarassed to say for how long and from what age. I'm nearly 10k in debt from them and that wasn't even to degree level.

I didn't do Music Technology/Audio Recording etc. at university, I nearly did when I was 18, I thank to high heavens I didn't in the end. I decided to do Engineering (Electronics). I know how your son feels, but he might resent everything you are trying to do for him and to be honest, at A level age, an engineering degree was laughable if you'd told me, then I started to read these threads and it became clear over months and the denial inside me started to fade.

Suggest to him maybe Acoustical Engineering, then try and work away from there. There are also Engineering foundation years he could apply to.

From doing those 'courses' to engineering within a month of my course I was calculating things which were alien to me just before starting, and even then I was not keeping up with the workload, but it's interesting, 18 year old me would hate it....I did more real useful math in one week than I could ever have done in 5...heck 20 years of these courses. In one month of those courses what would I have achieved? A cheesy track in a well known DAW and a few thousands words telling a lecturer what's so great about it.

He will be paying 12k per year whatever age he starts, I assume he's year 13?, he doesn't have to go straight to uni at 18 and for many people, it's the worst thing they could do and end up on a course they hate or is no use to them.

These courses are all run by graduates of the subject, and they tend to only be hiring those graduates by the looks of it and IMO trying to glorify their qualification by doing so, I think just about everyone of those that taught me were graduates of music tech from head of department to the technician in the building. I was even kind of nudged towards the university they all studied at over Surrey and LIPA, a few I know went for interviews there and couldn't do the physics test, and the staff turned up their nose and pulled the wool over their eyes....they should be teaching physics and various principles...but no, they were ignorant of that.

Some of the research lead universities push out a lot of work, I read through some of the stuff the Russell groups are doing and even though I understand about 1% of it, the person writing it is probably top of the field academically, but at best will get to lecture in it.

It's sterotypical for a parent to push their kids into medicine, science, law (even though it has awful prospects as well atm) or accounting etc. but you're going to have to somehow get him to see that what he wants is a pipe dream. He can always be interested in making music, local studios are always around and can stick around for as long as the owner cares, but a career? No. The music industry has changed and the people that rub shoulders with massive acts aren't audio engineers anymore.

Edit:

I'd also go with the Surrey Tonmeister course, but I've heard it's having problems finding placements for it's students, could be wrong but I wouldn't be surprised either way.

I got accepted to engineering with one of those diplomas in my hand whereas Tonmeister rejected me straight up, it's very competitive and I'm sure there are a few students on that course with the right attitude to succeed and overwhelming maths/physics capabilities.

Edited by Chris No.1 (06/11/11 11:56 PM)

Great thread this and its a subject I've been contemplating for some time. I graduated from leeds college of music a few years ago and I'd say the experience was mostly positive. It certainly didn't give me any employment prospects but it really helped me find an area of the industry to focus on and through talking to the lecturers I discovered just what it would take to establish myself.

I also just loved being part of a community of musicians etc and having access to some equipment that I could never afford.

I certainly wouldn't say its the best route to employment and the supposed industry links these places advertise in my experience (and many others) is a load of rubbish.

I recently saved up a few grand that was going to go on another "pro" course but decided in the end to spend it on location sound kit, which so far is turning out to be a very good decision. I've learnt more in the last year from starting out on sets and working my way up than 2 years of "education".

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http://www.williammorrismusic.com

Quote Chris No.1:

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He will be paying 12k per year whatever age he starts...

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No he won't. He won't pay a penny unless he earns over over £21k if and when he qualifies and gets a job that pays that much .... and only while he earns over £21k a year.

Yes - he'll run up living costs (rent, accommodation, beer fund, etc.) but that's always been the case .... and there are non-repayable grants depending on the parents' income.

It's not an ideal situation and I don't like it any more than others. But......!

And for those who had free higher education in the 70s, whatever, it's worth noting that only about 8% went to (proper) universities back then to gain (proper) degrees in (proper) subjects but now we have - I believe - 49% of young people going to trumped up 'polyversities' (or 'unitechnics') doing Mickey Mouse courses ... and someone has to pay for it all and there's not a bottomless pit of money.

And FWIW, there's a window cleaner here who is £35,000 in debt just to pay for his van to accommodate the expensive pump thingy he had to buy that feeds his special brush to clean windows after local council H&S regs killed off the regular window cleaners with a ladder and a chamoise leather. He felt it was worth investing in.

I do wish people would read the facts rather than the Daily Mail!

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Website / Music Lab Machines / Blog

Hi Guys,

I realised I owe you all an update.

I have had some very interesting discussions with my son since starting this thread. They were not the easiest of conversations as I felt I was trying to destroy his dream, but we had a very grown up discussion about the initial comments here and about the state of the music industry and his ambitions.

On reflection he has decided to embark on a different path of higher education choice. I think that the relative ease in which we he changed his decision confirmed that this was not the industry for him.

I would like to thank you all for your frank views which has helped me a great deal.

From a personal note I have found this thread a really interesting insight into the music industry and how hard it is today.

I wish you all the best.

Mark

Personally - I think that's great news, and a glowing testament to your sons maturity in understanding the pro's and cons of a situation. Nice one.

And, if he plays an instrument, he can still do music as a hobby which might lead to something. Also, if he goes to University, many Student Unions have proper venues with proper stage crews nowadays (I know because I used to be Technical Co-ordinator at one); so he could try and get paid work where he could learn something about the technical side of live shows while studying something entirely different.

When you and he are looking at potential Unis do check out what the SU have while you're at it. And, if the SU is obviously just a glorified bar; check out what the town/city has in the way of venues - they all need crew at some point.

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Gear List: reverse only.

Spending the next 3 - 5 years studying is a waste of time!
Let me put that a bit more reasonably. Doing something to further his education is good but NOT the answer. - You dont just walk in post this period. Getting IN is what matters.

I would recommend seeking out openings as soon as possible, unpaid if thats what it takes so he can build a CV that will open doors! In the mean time keep learning. I did this 35 years ago. Is it any different now in this industry? I would say no. I have two daughters both work in music industry for some years now. Got started by doing intern gigs and working for next to nothing. Made contacts, within 6 months you can have a CV that will open other doors. One is now Head of International Marketing and personally looks after Miley Cyrus, Jonas Brothers, Selena Gomez and co.
I know this is a different area from what your son wants to do (at the moment) But I would say the rules are the same. My daughters have succeeded because they work hard, have excellent people skills, learned fast and are very good at what they do. My other daughter was PA to the Chairwoman of a hugh worldwide advertising company by age 24! Most people said it was not possible. They have succeeded because they value 'being' educated in the life school. They have no so called academic qualifications or letters after their names.

Your son can do the same with the right mindset and attitude - Dont waste the next three years learning the theory only to then start looking for someone to start to give you the 'hands on' experience. Trust me the music world will of changed a whole bunch by then.....
Hope this is food for thought . . .good luck
kevin

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Kev Ryan
Website: http://makemoneyinmusic.com

Is he interested in anything else?
Its pointless going to Uni studying something hes not interested in it will be personal torture.
I know I did it and didnt last much to my parents dispointment.
I dont want to be a building surveyor I screamed at my Dad it bores me to death.
If he has no interest in electronic engineering (putting plugs on cables)then dont encourage him.
There are very few people who have made inroads this way either.
If he wants a studio get him to raise the money another way and perhaps to a business degree.
Just my opinion which means nothing other than to me.

Quote GLENN:

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If he has no interest in electronic engineering (putting plugs on cables)

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You really think that's electronic engineering?

Oh boy.

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New album 'Fantasy Bridge' available now!
Making of Fantasy Bridge Diary

Quote MarkOne:

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Quote GLENN:

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If he has no interest in electronic engineering (putting plugs on cables)

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You really think that's electronic engineering?

Oh boy.

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What do you call a tea maker/speaker carrier/driver/bloke with screw driver earning less than 25k after doing an electronics degree other than deluded or unemployed?

No, I call that over-qualified studio assistant.

But that's the nub of the problem isn't it? Even if you get through the door the chances of getting a job that pays a living wage are remote at best.

A friend of mine was a really successful studio engineer and producer. I mean *really* successful, he worked with artists we've all heard of. He has the gold and platinum disks on the wall to show for it. At one time he ran the multi-million pound personal studio of someone whose music the entire planet has heard and would readily recognise, he has people in his phonebook I consider musical icons, he's on first name terms with a lot of them. I mean in terms of the technical side of the music business, he s the epitome of success. You know what? his own studio had to close because he wasn't making any money from it. His last job was working for a small provincial theatre. Last time we chatted, he was unemployed. And, make no mistake, this guy is really GOOD.

But an electronic engineering career doesn't have to be about making up cables or rolling splifs for the talent.

In my time as an electronics engineer, I helped design the electronics for active loudspeaker systems, back in the 70s when nobody had heard of active speakers, stuff I designed was until quite recently still flying in front line fighters, some is still probably sat on a bunch of seabeds monitoring well-head telemetry, I've traveled all over the world, sat on international standards committees which have quite literally defined the technology for an industry segment, had a bunch of patents granted, many of my colleagues in the various companies I've worked in have similar experiences, some doing equipment sea-trials on aircraft carriers in the Pacific, one did a 1 month equipment trial on a nuclear sub somewhere in the atlantic. Other colleagues have done keynote speeches in front of thousands at international industry congress meetings, others have taken secondment, living and working in Beijing, Thailand, the USA.

Electronics can be a career that is varied, interesting, well paid, with lots of potential prospects in multiple industries. I've worked in Audio, Defence, Computing, Industrial recording/telemetry, and telecoms. I've loved all of it.

The fact that very few of us have had jobs sat behind a Neve or SSL in a big-name studio, doesn't make us any less electronics engineers (Hey, somebody designed that SSL - In fact I met one of their ex-designers, a couple of years back and he had some really interesting career anecdotes about places he'd been and people he'd met.)

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New album 'Fantasy Bridge' available now!
Making of Fantasy Bridge Diary