Quote ow:

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How about - no two people are identical.

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Possibly an interesting point if we were debating 'The Origin Of The Species'. However, I started this thread with a view to discussing how I might attain a unique sound. You seem to have, rather un-uniquely, veered off on a tangent.

I am happy to widen the discussion but that isn't necessarily going to help me redefine my sound in time for the module's closing date. Specifically (to reiterate), how this might be achieved using only the bare minimum of raw materials (omnisphere, logic etc.).

It was A.J.Ayer I think who said: "if one cannot argue logically, one simply must refrain from argument."

Quote ow:

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I agree. A person can no more 'become' a talented artist with work and investment than an average girl can become like a fashion model by buying make-up and clothes and a gym membership.

It's all down to the luck of the draw, how the stardust fell together on the day you were conceived.

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I don't agree. While there clearly is such a thing as talent, I think its importance is overstated by some. I think that in the recipe for success, talent is considerably outweighed by: focussed hard work, force of character, recognising opportunities, personal influences and of course luck.

Think of some of the people who didn't show huge talent from an early age, but became 'Greats' through the progress they made in adulthood. Robert Johnson is one and John Coltrane is another. One is the father of rock and blues, the other is arguably the father of modern jazz.

BUT!!!!!! before anybody else mentions: of course some people say that Robert Johnson got talent by doing a deal with the devil at the crossroads - and John Coltrane himself thought that his talent was acquired from God, through prayer.

So maybe in due deference to the father of rock music, and the father of modern jazz, we should add prayer and soul-selling to the list of ways you can get a unique sound.

Personally, I'm going for focussed hard work, recognising opportunities, etc etc.. But if there's anybody upstairs who wants to lend a hand then any help gratefully received

Marcus

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You live. You learn.

(I think ow was being ironic.)

Just be yourself…The rest will follow.

Or not...

Florence and the Machine - now there's a unique sound, certainly in terms of a 'band sound'. As for there being no unique individual sounds left to discover, I can think of several interesting sonic explorations from the last year or two. For starters, that car advert where the car noises are reproduced by a real choir (may have been Honda and can be found on youtube). Also, whilst I was holidaying in Scandinavia earlier this year, I heard an advert for an energy supplement for cats that was a wonderful piece of sound design - essentially a short symphony if you like made entirely from a cats meow, but done in such a way that you would not have necessarily have known what it was. Only the gentle, mechanical purr which preceded a high-pitched meow gave the game away because it was a little too rhythmic. But nonetheless, very subtle, very effective. Unique for sure.

There's certainly scope for creating something unique. Just think of all the old instruments that aren't used any more - crumb horn, cor anglais, dulcimer, the drewery hoot not forgetting such percussive antiquities as the tabor, pandiero, rannoch sack, long drum, lo boned grinnot and the wonderfully named knocking betty. You can still buy alot of these instruments online.

One approach might also be juxtaposing historical elements with omnisphere patches. For example, real harpsichord, sackbut, bassoon and lute alongside some of the evolving pads would definitely be unique. Whether it would be good music is another thing, possibly not but it is an area worthy of exploration possibly, especially as documentaries are becoming more historically focused nowadays. One thinks of David Starkey, Antiques Roadshow, Flog It. Then there's the ethnic angle, mix some exotic instruments into the mix such as an oud, zither or raffit and who knows where it will lead. Part of the fun is in finding out and exploring new soundworlds through experimentation.

I think it was Josiah Wedgwood that once said:

“Too often we are so preoccupied with the destination, we forget the journey.”

Steve

 

Quote In Search Of...:

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Quote ow:

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How about - no two people are identical.

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Possibly an interesting point if we were debating 'The Origin Of The Species'. However, I started this thread with a view to discussing how I might attain a unique sound. You seem to have, rather un-uniquely, veered off on a tangent.

I am happy to widen the discussion but that isn't necessarily going to help me redefine my sound in time for the module's closing date. Specifically (to reiterate), how this might be achieved using only the bare minimum of raw materials (omnisphere, logic etc.).

It was A.J.Ayer I think who said: "if one cannot argue logically, one simply must refrain from argument."

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But my argument is logical.

Lets clarify for my sake. When you say a unique sound are you asking about a single sound, or a sound-sound, like say; Motown?

If you're talking about a single sound then i'm sorry and i'll bow out and you can take advice from instrument makers and sound designers, neither of which i am. But if you are talking about developing a unique sound and you are also talking about music then what i'm saying is bang on the money, i'm afraid.

But i din't realise that when i was younger, it's taken years to realise that.

Oh yes, and don't be so cheeky.

(Sorry, forgot to add)

Unless yo are trolling of course, in which case you can go [ ****** ] yourself.

Quote ow:

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(Sorry, forgot to add)

Unless yo are trolling of course, in which case you can go [ ****** ] yourself.

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What a delightful person. I'm sorry, I can't get involved in discussions with people that have attitude problems. Some sort of anger management forum might be more appropriate, but you will now be placed on my ignore list so future outbursts on your part will be futile.

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Quote ow:

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(Sorry, forgot to add)

Unless yo are trolling of course, in which case you can go [ ****** ] yourself.

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What a delightful person. I'm sorry, I can't get involved in discussions with people that have attitude problems. Some sort of anger management forum might be more appropriate, but you will now be placed on my ignore list so future outbursts on your part will be futile.

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I think ow just vented because your tone is somewhat arrogant and you haven't thought through what a "unique sound" as a phrase means. A unique sound comes from a unique thought process and given that we are all to a lesser or greater degree unique, then it is up to you...if we give you ideas then it probably not unique either. Dave

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My head hurts!

Quote In Search Of...:

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What a delightful person. I'm sorry, I can't get involved in discussions with people that have attitude problems. Some sort of anger management forum might be more appropriate, but you will now be placed on my ignore list so future outbursts on your part will be futile.

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Several people in this thread, myself included, aren't sure whether you're genuinely a student with a project or you're a troll engaged in parody. Your line of reasoning is so far off-base as to be a valid satire, if it is intended as such. If you are in fact genuine, you may want to mull that over for a bit.

Satire? Trolling? Wtf!

Quite beyond me how a simple subject can go downhill so rapidly. Thanks for the sensible posts earlier in the thread, certainly food for thought. With that I shall withdraw from the forum with my dignity intact.

Rather than me mulling anything over, those turning this into a series of 'ad hominem' attacks might wish to review their actions and issue an apology if they see fit.


In any event, I can see you don't fancy sensible debate and would all rather have a jolly good rumble in an intellectual mud bath.

I shall leave you to it.

If you're using something as popular and as 'off-the-shelf' as Omnisphere, you're going to find it hard to be unique coz every bugger has it!

Just saying!

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Website / Music Lab Machines / Blog

Quote In Search Of...:

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Satire? Trolling? Wtf!

Quite beyond me how a simple subject can go downhill so rapidly. Thanks for the sensible posts earlier in the thread, certainly food for thought. With that I shall withdraw from the forum with my dignity intact.

Rather than me mulling anything over, those turning this into a series of 'ad hominem' attacks might wish to review their actions and issue an apology if they see fit.


In any event, I can see you don't fancy sensible debate and would all rather have a jolly good rumble in an intellectual mud bath.

I shall leave you to it.

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See ya!

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My head hurts!

Quote In Search Of...:

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Quite beyond me how a simple subject can go downhill so rapidly.

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Where shall I start?

• Well you were seemingly correcting people's use of English over the "88% Unique" discussion.

• Then you responded to someone else: "If possible, we should avoid frivolous generalisations as they don't really contribute to the discussion. "

• Then you criticised someone else saying: "It was A.J.Ayer I think who said: "if one cannot argue logically, one simply must refrain from argument."

• And of course there was the post aimed at me. You had the sense to delete it at least, but I saw the email. Not so much insulting but superior (and rather illogical in fact).

So Firstly, It didn't "go downhill rapidly"; I saw this coming 24 hours ago. Secondly it ought not to be beyond you how this came about. Thirdly you said all this to people who were helping you and might have helped you more.

The biggest challenge you face in the music business is not to do with writing or production. The biggest impediment to your career ambitions is your attitude. Get a new one. Success is about people skills.

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... I shall withdraw from the forum with my dignity intact.

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Really?

Marcus

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You live. You learn.

Now then, Now then......

Quote MarcusH:

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Success is about people skills.

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Can you back that up with anything substantial? It doesn't take much research to discover that almost all avenues of commerce and art are full to the gills with abject cnuts, wholly lacking in social skills, who've done very well for themselves.

Quote ex-reid:

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...almost all avenues of commerce and art are full to the gills with abject cnuts, wholly lacking in social skills, who've done very well for themselves.

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I have often asked myself the exact same question.

I think some successful Cs who seem to have no people skills, actually do . Many for example, are very good at sucking up to the boss/shareholders/clients - but they 're evil bastards to their staff and suppliers. Others for instance, pretend to be normal until they get promoted. Or some, join organisations or departments where everyone is one - so they fit-in! Many utter bastards recruit lovely PAs and great agents, as counterbalance. These are all people skills - of sorts.

Sure, there are exceptions, but I think for most of us, success is a good deal about people skills - and I still think the OP should change his attitude.

Marcus

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You live. You learn.

Actually there is a problem with this forum. I think it is shocking when the OP is described as a Troll. If I were to give an example of unique music then I would direct him here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0fk6syQ7iY
I would hope he would judge himself against it. This has nothing to do with guitars, or defunct recording studios or pirates or "take it all" music colleges. I have learned a lot here, but I think it is wrong to be so critical of a young artist and I believe he should have a voice and be encouraged.

Quote balvenie:

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If I were to give an example of unique music then I would direct him here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0fk6syQ7iY

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It's great but I don't see what's unique about it. You can hear where it's come from. There are no surprises in it. The heavy use of chip-tune sounds for example is almost dated surely?!

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Original artwork and unique devices inspired by vintage technology http://www.thisisobsolete.com

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painfully

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I think that's amazing and pretty unique!

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Original artwork and unique devices inspired by vintage technology http://www.thisisobsolete.com

Sorry -- late to the dance, as usual.

Is it "trolling"? Yes... as in fishing:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolling_%28fishing%29
To me at least, it makes sense to search for interesting input, especially from such a mob of enlightened individuals. I mean, heck, it's actually turned into a nice discussion!!

So, let me pretend the OP still exists.

Uniqueness is something that comes from... well, just having fun. Randomness is good -- true enough, I've been a John Cage fan for 40 years, so that likely has had some input on my attitude. Accident is good. Playing for a liquored-up audience is good.

The problem I see is reaching for unique with such strictures as "my current setup." To many beginners, this means presets; a decade ago, I read a great review of a new Roland synth that said (I paraphrase), "Sadly, almost everyone who buys this synth will never actually program a unique sound using any of the depth it offers." I bought an alpha-Juno 2 just so I could whack the settings around, then I see if I can create anything interesting from the chaos -- while I like the potential depth of the JX-305, I keep getting sucked into the presets myself.

What is "ethnic"? I've learned a little Middle Eastern, like rai & Said Mrad's takes on Baligh Hamdi, but Scandinavian bands like Hoven Droven & Hedningarna have shown me tonnes about "non-Western" key-changes & rhythms. Is this a bad thing? Is it okay only when Metallica does it?

One of the coolest rhythms I've ever found is an exhaust fan outside a Minneapolis restaurant that runs in a slightly syncopated 3/4. As organic as a heartbeat, yet mechanical.

Stealing from a source doesn't discount uniqueness. Doing it again & bloody again? Huh. My first impression of Counting Crows was "For a guy who's trying to sound like Van Morrison it... sure sounds like a guy trying to sound like Van Morrison."

I've written some fiction, & coached some hopeful authors. Most of them have expressed fear of reading other authors, lest they glom onto someone else's style & become derivative. My response is, "If you're ignorant of what's out there, the risk is greater. When you're not writing, you should be reading, so that you have some idea of what's being overdone, what's being done poorly, & what could easily be bettered." The same (IMO) applies to music -- listen to a LOT of music, & get a grasp of what's interesting but could be improved.

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resident troublemaker, http://forum.frugalguitarist.com/

Quote Tony Raven:

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What is "ethnic"? I've learned a little Middle Eastern, like rai & Said Mrad's takes on Baligh Hamdi, but Scandinavian bands like Hoven Droven & Hedningarna have shown me tonnes about "non-Western" key-changes & rhythms. Is this a bad thing? Is it okay only when Metallica does it?

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Yes I was rather surprised that the OP said "no ethnic elements" - given his dislike of imprecise terminology

…of course where I live, they don't call it ethnic music. They just call it …"music" . One man's 'ethnic' is another man's normality.

Quote balvenie:

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Actually there is a problem with this forum. I think it is shocking when the OP is described as a Troll. If I were to give an example of unique music then I would direct him here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0fk6syQ7iY
I would hope he would judge himself against it. This has nothing to do with guitars, or defunct recording studios or pirates or "take it all" music colleges. I have learned a lot here, but I think it is wrong to be so critical of a young artist and I believe he should have a voice and be encouraged.

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I can't access the link, sorry.

This is a very strange thread, but fascinating. I'm reminded of something an old university pal of mine did. He was sitting an exam on Aesthtics (we were both Eng. Lit. / Philosophy students). The question on the exam paper was "How are we to understand the act of artistic creation?". Dale is a songwriter and a painter so his answer was simply "create something artistic". That's literally all he wrote. He failed the exam, which is pretty ironic really, since his answer was valid and in itself quite artful (though admittedly minimalistic). I think they were expecting five sides about originality and uniqueness and Kant's genius "giving the rule to art".

All very well in a university Philosophy course! But in a more practical arena, it's a weird question. How to create something unique. Imagine someone visiting a carpentry forum and asking all the carpenters how to create a great piece of furniture that nobody has ever made. And it has to be made out of rosewoood and antimony. But not "ethnic". I don't know, does that not seem a bit weird to you?

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Battle flags are flown at the feet of a garden gnome.

Quote balvenie:

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If I were to give an example of unique music then I would direct him here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0fk6syQ7iY

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that track is curried shite.

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I'm All Ears.

Quote ken long:

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Quote balvenie:

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If I were to give an example of unique music then I would direct him here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0fk6syQ7iY

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that track is curried shite.

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I listened to it again. Its kinda catchy the second time arou... nah. terrible. IMO, of course.

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I'm All Ears.

"- listen to a LOT of music, & get a grasp of what's interesting but could be improved. "

This is so true, so many people sit back and think they can just exist in some kind of bubble. You really need to be on the cutting edge and know whats going on, otherwise you are just a bedroom hobbyist. You need to be out there and compete.

Then you find it is a matter of development and building and actually playing the game, absorbing the rules before you are qualified to break them.

From a distance, Haydn, Mozart and Beethoven can be mistaken for each other at times. Its how they differ from each other in thier subtle personal appropriation of the same classical form that reveals thier genius. Its rarely about stepping right outside the paradigm and breaking the system - or the instruments.

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Post deleted by johnny h

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Quote MarcusH:

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Quote In Search Of...:

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Quite beyond me how a simple subject can go downhill so rapidly.

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Where shall I start?

• Well you were seemingly correcting people's use of English over the "88% Unique" discussion.

• Then you responded to someone else: "If possible, we should avoid frivolous generalisations as they don't really contribute to the discussion. "

• Then you criticised someone else saying: "It was A.J.Ayer I think who said: "if one cannot argue logically, one simply must refrain from argument."

• And of course there was the post aimed at me. You had the sense to delete it at least, but I saw the email. Not so much insulting but superior (and rather illogical in fact).

So Firstly, It didn't "go downhill rapidly"; I saw this coming 24 hours ago.

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Wow well if this was started by a troll I'd say they've done brilliantly. Beaming with pride.

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How to get a "unique" sound?

-Be yourself and have something to say with your sound that's worth other people hearing.

-Don't use quite the same tools everyone else is using (like Logic and Omnisphere and whatever other known quantity). These days there seems to be a race to homogeny in production circles. It's sickening really.

-Don't "try" to be unique. Just make sure that what matters most happens before the mic picks it up.

Flame away

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MIRRORMIX STUDIO
blog

Yes, Enlightened, and that's the reason I had to part ways with the local NSAI meeting group. While the group exists ostensibly for fostering creativity, in the end it's a bunch of self proclaimed critics saying "It's too wordy", "nobody's ever sold one like that", "it's too long" (I'm thinking Wreck of the Edmond Fitzgerald!) "You can't do that". So if every song has to fit into someone else's mold, then at least it won't be unique. So See Ya!

The O.P. has hit on some good points. Put two instruments together that aren't usually. Like, say, bass guitar playing the melody and a vocal falsetto harmony - whatever! Do a mixdown comprised only of compressed reverb sends. Nudge the resulting track ahead of the standard mix! Think for yourself !!(what a concept) and then follow through, recognizing that it will take 100 failures before you arrive at that something useful, that something unique. Record the Omnisphere underwater - you might be famous. 100 people take risks- 99 die- one's famous.

I thought the stereo acoustic guitar parts on Adele's version of Lovesong were creatively and quite simplistically refreshing.

The banter on this thread is also entertaining! So is the idea of looking to others for advice on being unique - now that I think about it.

Rick

Quote EnlightenedHand:

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-Be yourself and have something to say with your sound that's worth other people hearing.

-Don't use quite the same tools everyone else is using (like Logic and Omnisphere and whatever other known quantity). These days there seems to be a race to homogeny in production circles. It's sickening really.

-Don't "try" to be unique. Just make sure that what matters most happens before the mic picks it up.

Flame away

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No argument here. Well said in fact.

Quote johnny h:

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Wow well if this was started by a troll I'd say they've done brilliantly. Beaming with pride.

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Yes you're right. I briefly suspected him of being a troll, but I realised he was the real thing - albeit bloody rude and superior. Perhaps it's because trolls don't usually quote A. J. Ayer

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You live. You learn.

Quote MarcusH:

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Quote johnny h:

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Wow well if this was started by a troll I'd say they've done brilliantly. Beaming with pride.

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Yes you're right. I briefly suspected him of being a troll, but I realised he was the real thing - albeit bloody rude and superior. Perhaps it's because trolls don't usually quote A. J. Ayer

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Perhaps it was a troll of the highest order.

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Perhaps it was a troll of the highest order.

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Quote jellyjim:

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Quote uphillbothways:

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painfully

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I think that's amazing and pretty unique!

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Tried really hard...but I couldn't get to the end of that. Even preferred that Labrinth thing.

If you try to be unique it's inevitably contrived. Sigue Sigue Sputnik come to mind - although they were undeniably interesting in retrospect and I think they deserve their little 15 minutes of fame. In any case unique can cover a multitude of sins. I think I'd rather be original than unique. Even originality isn't essential. By definition bands belonging to a genre lack originality as it is their homogeny that groups them. Although you could say Led Zep were more original than AC/DC but they're both heavy rock - not to mention awesome. Some music demands a degree of homogeny. Club and dance music for example. Jumping from 180 BPM to 80 BPM mid gurn does not a happy raver make!

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Original artwork and unique devices inspired by vintage technology http://www.thisisobsolete.com

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Quote jellyjim:

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Quote uphillbothways:

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painfully

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I think that's amazing and pretty unique!

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Tried really hard...but I couldn't get to the end of that. Even preferred that Labrinth thing.

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I have weird ears. I will for example willingly listen to free jazz.

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Original artwork and unique devices inspired by vintage technology http://www.thisisobsolete.com

Very interesting discussion guys. Some great points being made.

Quote jellyjim:

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I think I'd rather be original than unique.

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Surely, the one implies the other though Jim?

Both subjective elements, which in musical terms, are often dealt with objectively. Sometimes, as in the case of Cage or Ives this can be achieved because there is a lack of historical 'residue' implicit in the composer's methodology or the end result. In the case of more contemporary rock and pop genres, the lines of demarcation are not so clearly defined.

Of course, one can say that Led Zeppelin has/had a unique sound, but you have to place it in some historical context first and assess the influence of the resulting sound from all that went before.

Or should I say, it isn't as far removed from the preceeding musical canon as the earlier classical examples are. They are unique and no one would dispute that, either subjectively or objectively.

OK! AC/DC Blues inspired Aussie Scots glam rockers, with a rock solid rhythm section, a schoolboy manic icon, a punk/rock ethic in the golden age of 2 inch tape...the Perfect Storm ...unique? Dave

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My head hurts!

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painfully

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I think that's amazing and pretty unique!

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http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/video/2009/nov/22/fluid-piano-classical-mu sic


- This thread keeps reminding me of the scene in The Life Of Brian where Brian says ;
" Don't follow me . Don't follow anyone . Just be yourselves. You're all individuals " and a voice from the back of the crowd says " I'm not " .

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Music is it's own reward .