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pacfanttoy



Joined: 15/11/11
Posts: 45
Line Arrays - Please Educate Me new
      #953539 - 15/11/11 03:50 PM
Hello everyone and good day.

Thank you for the admin and mods for this interesting forum.


Could you please school me about this topic.

What brand/s are widely used and recognized worldwide? Any specific line?

What are the advantages and disadvantages of this loudspeaker technology?

What are the differences compared to point-source loudspeakers?

How do we know how far it can reach and cover?

Any links that will reinforce our knowledge and appreciation about this topic?


My apology for the many questions.

Thank you very much.


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BJG145



Joined: 06/08/05
Posts: 3326
Loc: Norwich UK
Re: Line Arrays - Please Educate Me new [Re: pacfanttoy]
      #953541 - 15/11/11 03:57 PM
Hi - Welcome to the forum...!

This isn't homework-related is it...?

http://www.soundonsound.com/forum/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=516806& page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=365&fpart=1#516806

This article is a useful introduction...

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/mar06/articles/live_linearrays.htm



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Dave Rowles



Joined: 28/02/08
Posts: 1448
Loc: Isle of Man
Re: Line Arrays - Please Educate Me new [Re: BJG145]
      #953574 - 15/11/11 08:08 PM
The second link above is a brilliant article. Should answer all you questions.

As far as brands, search for line arrays using your preferred internet search engine, and you should come up with some options.

--------------------
www.manninmusic.com Bandcamp
Sound Engineer, Music Teacher, Isle of Man


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ian_gibbs



Joined: 21/11/08
Posts: 95
Loc: Edinburgh
Re: Line Arrays - Please Educate Me new [Re: pacfanttoy]
      #953575 - 15/11/11 08:11 PM
Well, firstly we'll never be able to cover it all on here, there really is a massive amount of info on this out there.

Line arrays are many and varied, and not every set of speakers in a line is actually a line array.

One of the big principles of a line array is to remove the inverse square law for speakers (i.e., the sound no longer quarters in level for a doubling of the distance), instead it is a straight linear relationship, for this to happen the length of the array has to be a function of the lowest wavelength producible by the array, this can often mean arrays of tens of feet in length.

Also not all arrays are of the "line" type along their length, many become point sources at the bottom of the array to provide a near field (in flown arrays, called a downfill) fill.

Big manufacturers are D&B Audiotechnik, Meyer (active systems), Nexo, JBL, L'acoustics to name but a few.

Most if not all of these manufacturers have white papers etc on their websites that give a much more detailed explanation.

Reasons for use are often the distance/spl laws mentioned above, directionality (important for things like outdoor festivals where annoying the neighbours may result in you loosing your entertainment licence), on and they look cool for rock and roll.

The best bet is to make google your friend.

Ian


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pacfanttoy



Joined: 15/11/11
Posts: 45
Re: Line Arrays - Please Educate Me new [Re: pacfanttoy]
      #953614 - 15/11/11 10:54 PM

An amazing inputs everyone, thank you very much.

What can you say about Electro-Voice or EV? I heard that Dallas Cowboys Stadium is using these.


@BJG - haha it's not homework-related bro, thanks a lot for the links.


@ian_gibbs - could you please explain further about the inverse square law not being applicable to this line array system.


Have a nice day.


Chris


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dmills



Joined: 25/08/06
Posts: 2355
Loc: High Wycombe, UK
Re: Line Arrays - Please Educate Me new [Re: pacfanttoy]
      #953637 - 16/11/11 02:27 AM
In what is effectively the near field of a line array system the wavefront is cylindrical (It becomes spherical in the far field).

A Line source array can be thought of as being close to a vertical slot radiator, which has a very wide horizontal pattern and a narrow vertical one (usually with a few lobes).
This narrow vertical pattern means that over reasonable distances the line source array generates an approximation to a cylindrical wavefront as the curvature in the vertical direction is very much smaller then that in the horizontal.

The surface area of a cylinder rises linearly with increasing radius, while that of a sphere rises as the square of the radius, thus within the design limits of the system the power per unit area falls off linearly for a line source array and as the square of the distance for a point source array.

Regards, Dan.

--------------------
Audiophiles use phono leads because they are unbalanced people!


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pacfanttoy



Joined: 15/11/11
Posts: 45
Re: Line Arrays - Please Educate Me new [Re: pacfanttoy]
      #953640 - 16/11/11 05:18 AM
Thank you very much Dan for your valuable inputs here.

Please feel free to post more.


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benniferj



Joined: 11/06/07
Posts: 317
Loc: Camberley, Surrey, UK
Re: Line Arrays - Please Educate Me new [Re: pacfanttoy]
      #953701 - 16/11/11 11:19 AM
Surely if you were that interested in it, you'd research some of it yourself?


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Guy Johnson



Joined: 02/05/03
Posts: 4339
Loc: North Pembrokeshire
Re: Line Arrays - Please Educate Me new [Re: ian_gibbs]
      #953750 - 16/11/11 02:45 PM
Quote ian_gibbs:

<snip
Big manufacturers are D&B Audiotechnik, Meyer (active systems), Nexo, JBL, L'acoustics to name but a few. >snip




I feel I need to mention Logic System .. Been using their stuff for a while, well worth a look. Good value, and great service.
I use the little CA10s which are a cross between a line and a point source, I'd say.

There is a ' jump on the bandwagon ' thing .. everyone needs to make line-arrays now, so be careful. In many situations, line-arrays are not the answer!

One great thing about all the discussion about arrays is the dawning awareness of directivity, dispersion and coverage. Sadly, this still does not stop installers allowing arrays to beam onto side-walls in so many venues. Look up comb-filtering...

--------------------
Facebok Page for acoustic music PA-ing in smaller venues


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pacfanttoy



Joined: 15/11/11
Posts: 45
Re: Line Arrays - Please Educate Me new [Re: benniferj]
      #953768 - 16/11/11 04:10 PM
Quote benniferj:

Surely if you were that interested in it, you'd research some of it yourself?




I did bro. Please don't be too hard for me, didn't mean to sound stupid here. My apology.


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. . . Delete This
Here be Dragons


Joined: 23/06/08
Posts: 3888
Re: Line Arrays - Please Educate Me new [Re: pacfanttoy]
      #953774 - 16/11/11 04:53 PM
isn't research the process of asking questions, and digesting the answers?????


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ian_gibbs



Joined: 21/11/08
Posts: 95
Loc: Edinburgh
Re: Line Arrays - Please Educate Me new [Re: pacfanttoy]
      #953791 - 16/11/11 06:16 PM
You're dead right Guy, I've heard some good stuff about the logic boxes, I just mention some that I'm more familiar with.

dmills has given a great to the point explanation of the inverse square law and how it changes with line arrays, a google will give you loads more info without cluttering the forum with physics that has already been done far clearer than I could.

Ian


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pacfanttoy



Joined: 15/11/11
Posts: 45
Re: Line Arrays - Please Educate Me new [Re: ian_gibbs]
      #953798 - 16/11/11 07:06 PM
Good day Ian.

How about EV?


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pacfanttoy



Joined: 15/11/11
Posts: 45
Re: Line Arrays - Please Educate Me new [Re: pacfanttoy]
      #954248 - 19/11/11 05:04 AM
Any updates please.

Have a nice weekend.


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ian_gibbs



Joined: 21/11/08
Posts: 95
Loc: Edinburgh
Re: Line Arrays - Please Educate Me new [Re: pacfanttoy]
      #954440 - 20/11/11 06:29 PM
Sorry, been mega busy this week, feet haven't touched the ground.

Not used any of the EV array stuff but of the other stuff I've used of theirs I haven't been a fan.

Ian


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pacfanttoy



Joined: 15/11/11
Posts: 45
Re: Line Arrays - Please Educate Me new [Re: pacfanttoy]
      #954495 - 21/11/11 12:13 AM
Many thanks Ian for the updates.

Whenever I research online the name EV comes out as one of the better choices in line array systems, you mean Ian in reality they're (EV) not?


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ef37a



Joined: 29/05/06
Posts: 6698
Loc: northampton uk
Re: Line Arrays - Please Educate Me [Re: pacfanttoy]
      #954524 - 21/11/11 08:57 AM
Ref "laws".

There seems to be considerable confusion (bit of a ding-dong in another place)as to how sound (in general terms) decays with distance.

For sure a spherical sound/light source, POWER goes as the inv' square but us humans are sensitive to pressure and my investigations tell me that this goes as 1 over r?

A definitive answer from a top bod' would be most welcome!

Dave.


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seablade



Joined: 21/11/04
Posts: 3988
Re: Line Arrays - Please Educate Me new [Re: ef37a]
      #954662 - 21/11/11 07:08 PM
Quote ef37a:

Ref "laws".

There seems to be considerable confusion (bit of a ding-dong in another place)as to how sound (in general terms) decays with distance.

For sure a spherical sound/light source, POWER goes as the inv' square but us humans are sensitive to pressure and my investigations tell me that this goes as 1 over r?

A definitive answer from a top bod' would be most welcome!

Dave.




Short version you are correct. I doubt I could do a good enough job explaining the long version, so I leave the summary of it to a short quote from the Master Handbook of Acoustics...

Quote:


Intensity of sound (power per unit area) is a difficult parameter to measure. Sound pressure is easily measured. As intensity is proportional to the square of sound pressure, the inverse square law (for intensity) becomes the inverse distance law (for sound pressure). In other words, sound pressure varies inversely as the first power of the distance. In Fig. 4-2, the sound-pressure level in decibels is plotted against distance. This illustrates the basis for the common and very useful expression, 6 dB per doubling of the distance that, again, applies only for a free field.

Everest, F. Alton (2000-09-22). Master Handbook of Acoustics (Kindle Locations 1933-1938). McGraw-Hill. Kindle Edition.




Obviously you can't see their image which is just a graph demonstrating this, but the key thing to remember is that Intensity is not the same as Pressure. Really this is a not uncommon misconception, and one I am guilty of spreading as I use intensity to differentiate the difference between perceived and measured quantities in terms of sound, but I don't go into the the actual difference between measure intensity and measured pressure, the former has not only the amplitude of the waveform to consider, but also the speed of the wave, the speed of the particles' movement transmitting the wave, and a few other things to consider IIRC.

The fun thing about this though is that even though one is the inverse square law, and one is the inverse distance law, in both the case of intensity and pressure you still lose 6dB per doubling of distance, but in the case of pressure that translates into 50% instead of 25% at that distance. Yea for decibels being nothing but straight ratios. Please don't ask me to try to explain all the math behind this, it is a headache and a half and I married a mathematician so that she could explain it and I didn't need to understand it, just follow it;)

Seablade


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turtles



Joined: 22/10/04
Posts: 244
Loc: Notts, mostly.
Re: Line Arrays - Please Educate Me new [Re: pacfanttoy]
      #954685 - 21/11/11 08:54 PM
Quote:

I married a mathematician so that she could explain it and I didn't need to understand it, just follow it;)




On such things are solid and lasting relationships built, ladies and gentlemen. Get the important compatibility factors right and the rest will follow :-)


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seablade



Joined: 21/11/04
Posts: 3988
Re: Line Arrays - Please Educate Me new [Re: turtles]
      #954686 - 21/11/11 09:05 PM
Quote turtles:

Quote:

I married a mathematician so that she could explain it and I didn't need to understand it, just follow it;)




On such things are solid and lasting relationships built, ladies and gentlemen. Get the important compatibility factors right and the rest will follow :-)




HehHeh... there are several ways to take this;) Thanks though!

Seablade


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dmills



Joined: 25/08/06
Posts: 2355
Loc: High Wycombe, UK
Re: Line Arrays - Please Educate Me new [Re: pacfanttoy]
      #954697 - 21/11/11 10:40 PM
And then of course perceived loudness has a non linear relationship to both pressure and power!

You actually see exactly the same relationships in aerials (power flux density is square law vs electric field strength which is linear in the far field) which should be no surprise given that voltage and power have a square law relationship.

And of course all of these relationships only hold within the critical distance.

None the less for the right venue, line source arrays offer real advantages, but they are just so easy to misapply (and the results so horrible when misapplied). These are systems that need real understanding (and quite often computer modeling) to employ correctly and most of the manufacturers actually run courses on how to use their systems.

Regards, Dan.

--------------------
Audiophiles use phono leads because they are unbalanced people!


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seablade



Joined: 21/11/04
Posts: 3988
Re: Line Arrays - Please Educate Me new [Re: dmills]
      #954703 - 21/11/11 11:03 PM
Quote dmills:

And then of course perceived loudness has a non linear relationship to both pressure and power!





Yep.

Quote:


And of course all of these relationships only hold within the critical distance.





Dan's comment reminded me... it is important to keep that both inverse square and inverse distance are only approximations and do not take into account the effect of reflections and acoustics of the space. They are both intended to work in free space with no reflections etc., aka an 'ideal space' or in other words, the land of make believe and dragons. So when measuring levels you will find neither of these laws to be accurate in almost every case, but they will give a decent approximation. Of course you hit critical distance as Dan says, and all this goes out the window:)

Seablade


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pacfanttoy



Joined: 15/11/11
Posts: 45
Re: Line Arrays - Please Educate Me new [Re: pacfanttoy]
      #954704 - 21/11/11 11:04 PM
Good Monday evening to all.

May I ask Dan, what do you mean by "misapply" when speaking of line array venue applications?

Sorry for my ignorance.


Chris


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pacfanttoy



Joined: 15/11/11
Posts: 45
Re: Line Arrays - Please Educate Me new [Re: pacfanttoy]
      #954705 - 21/11/11 11:09 PM
And what can you say about EV line arrays?

Our church's engineering department prefers this over L-Acoustics, JBL, Nexo, Meyer.

Just curious why.


Thanks everyone for your productive insights about this topic. I appreciate it very much.


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ian_gibbs



Joined: 21/11/08
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Re: Line Arrays - Please Educate Me new [Re: pacfanttoy]
      #954743 - 22/11/11 08:47 AM
I think the point that Dan is getting at, and certainly my view, or at least one of them, is that line arrays are seen as the cool, rock and roll option and due to the cool things they do with power and pressure then they must be the solution to every sound reinforcement problem. Actually when you look at most problems you may find that a point or distributed source system is the better option.

As has been said, badly deployed arrays are a waste of everyones time and money and most companies provide modelling software to ensure the array is doing what you want it to do, and, in some cases provide the correct array settings to actually get the system to preform as a line array. Take a look at d&b's array calc for a great example. It's free to download from their website. Also may companies won't let you use their larger systems without training, partly form a safe rigging point of view but also due to the fact that the system is an advert for the manufacturer and getting it wrong doesn't make the system look good.

Are you looking for advice for a new purchase for your church or just after some knowledge?

I've got a feeling your not getting any info on EV as (certainly where I'm based) it's not a massively common system, around me (Edinburgh and indeed most of central Scotland) it's d&b for most stuff with L'acoustics doing rock and Roll and the odd Meyer system here and there.

Ian


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ef37a



Joined: 29/05/06
Posts: 6698
Loc: northampton uk
Re: Line Arrays - Please Educate Me new [Re: seablade]
      #954751 - 22/11/11 09:07 AM
Thanks Seablade, nice to know I was sort of on the right track!

Having been weaned on the writings of P J Baxendall, G J King, Kelly,Ford,Self and many others, I am perhaps a bit "sensitive" about terminologies. I hate it when people refer to loudspeaker "efficiency" when they mean sensitivity. Efficiency is of course the ratio of power out to power in and as you point out, measuring sound power is very difficult...Heck, measuring the nominal One Watt test input cannot easily be done and is just specified as the root Z volts.

And as for rms bloody watts! @&^%!!!!
Oh! " I married a mathematician so that she could explain it"

Nice to know romance is not dead.

Dave.


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pacfanttoy



Joined: 15/11/11
Posts: 45
Re: Line Arrays - Please Educate Me new [Re: pacfanttoy]
      #955065 - 24/11/11 12:54 AM
Thank you to everyone who continuously contributing to this thread.

I appreciate it very much.


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pacfanttoy



Joined: 15/11/11
Posts: 45
Re: Line Arrays - Please Educate Me new [Re: pacfanttoy]
      #957643 - 07/12/11 09:20 AM
happy holidays to everyone.


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pacfanttoy



Joined: 15/11/11
Posts: 45
Re: Line Arrays - Please Educate Me new [Re: pacfanttoy]
      #960604 - 25/12/11 07:05 AM
Good day to everyone.

How do you set up the Line Array System if it is an OPEN-AIR area like a forest retreat?

What are the factors that must be avoided in this kind of set up?

Thanks for any replies.


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ef37a



Joined: 29/05/06
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Re: Line Arrays - Please Educate Me new [Re: pacfanttoy]
      #960605 - 25/12/11 07:16 AM
Quote pacfanttoy:

Good day to everyone.

How do you set up the Line Array System if it is an OPEN-AIR area like a forest retreat?

What are the factors that must be avoided in this kind of set up?

Thanks for any replies.




Teddy bears.

Dave.


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pacfanttoy



Joined: 15/11/11
Posts: 45
Re: Line Arrays - Please Educate Me new [Re: ef37a]
      #960606 - 25/12/11 07:17 AM
Quote ef37a:

Quote pacfanttoy:

Good day to everyone.

How do you set up the Line Array System if it is an OPEN-AIR area like a forest retreat?

What are the factors that must be avoided in this kind of set up?

Thanks for any replies.




Teddy bears.

Dave.





I'm sorry Dave but I didn't get it.


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ef37a



Joined: 29/05/06
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Loc: northampton uk
Re: Line Arrays - Please Educate Me new [Re: pacfanttoy]
      #960608 - 25/12/11 07:28 AM
Quote pacfanttoy:

Quote ef37a:

Quote pacfanttoy:

Good day to everyone.

How do you set up the Line Array System if it is an OPEN-AIR area like a forest retreat?

What are the factors that must be avoided in this kind of set up?

Thanks for any replies.




Teddy bears.

Dave.





I'm sorry Dave but I didn't get it.




No, I am sorry, my answer was flippant and silly notwithstanding the day.

Seriously: Trees.

Dave.


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pacfanttoy



Joined: 15/11/11
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Re: Line Arrays - Please Educate Me new [Re: pacfanttoy]
      #960609 - 25/12/11 07:36 AM
It's okay Dave, no problem with me. Have a nice day.


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pacfanttoy



Joined: 15/11/11
Posts: 45
Re: Line Arrays - Please Educate Me new [Re: pacfanttoy]
      #960610 - 25/12/11 07:41 AM
How can we set up the Line Array System in an Open-Air area if the trees are not really an issue since they are widely spaced apart.

Will the wind orientation affects the system? If yes, is it significant or negligible? How can we address this factor?

The area is 140 meters in length and 200 meters in width.

Thanks Dave.


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turtles



Joined: 22/10/04
Posts: 244
Loc: Notts, mostly.
Re: Line Arrays - Please Educate Me new [Re: pacfanttoy]
      #960709 - 26/12/11 04:37 PM
Quote pacfanttoy:

How can we set up the Line Array System in an Open-Air area if the trees are not really an issue since they are widely spaced apart.

Will the wind orientation affects the system? If yes, is it significant or negligible? How can we address this factor?

The area is 140 meters in length and 200 meters in width.





Pacfanttoy, I think you are now getting in to areas in which it would be worth your (and your organisation's!) while to pay for an engineer's time.
Seriously, if you are working outside in a space that size, whether or not a line array will cover the area will be the very least of your worries. I presume power/containment/rigging/safety are already dealt with? If so then your current adviser should be able to assist you. If not, then please please please get some professional on-site expertise for this. It will be worth the money to get it right.


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Dave Gate
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Re: Line Arrays - Please Educate Me new [Re: pacfanttoy]
      #960711 - 26/12/11 05:14 PM
I have a soft spot for Kling & Freitag's Sequenza line array; as it sounds pretty good (it's beaten better known brands in blind tests), plus the boxes are a lot smaller and lighter than many, which is a bonus when you have to set it up or stack it in a truck . . .

--------------------
Gear List: reverse only.


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pacfanttoy



Joined: 15/11/11
Posts: 45
Re: Line Arrays - Please Educate Me new [Re: pacfanttoy]
      #960750 - 27/12/11 09:04 AM
@turtles

It's okay bro, I just need to know for myself so I won't be ignorant about it. Thanks for your concern.


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pacfanttoy



Joined: 15/11/11
Posts: 45
Re: Line Arrays - Please Educate Me new [Re: pacfanttoy]
      #961365 - 31/12/11 11:44 PM
HAPPY NEW YEAR 2012 TO SOS FAMILY


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