The aim is to boost the bass content of an electro-acoustic (nylon string) guitar to mimic a bass guitar.

I thought: a steep filter 'gate' that outputs only the frequencies below, let's say the note D. This output would then feed an octaver of some kind and the rest of the guitar sounds, obviously, going the usual way out. I know, the ideal would be to get a guitar synth where you can assign individual strings to sounds/MIDI channels.. nevertheless..:

Questions:

1] pointless idea?
2] done and dusted?
3] if so... good?
4] if so... what 'bits' would you reccomend?

That's all folks! Cheers and thanks in advance..

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www.bugiolacchi.com
Songwriter/guitarist

Boss OC3 octave, set to polyphonic mode. Route the bass output to a compressor to even the tone as needed, and ideally a bass amp or amp sim etc depending on whether you are working live or into a PA/multitrack/DAW etc. The OC3 allows you to "tune" the pedal to which bass strings you want to cover.

Main out for the acoustic side to process as above, e.g. amp, DAW etc.

I've tried loads of options (including the guitar synth option you mention) and this works best for me - certainly the best tracking....

My next step is to add an SYB3 or 5 for synth/hold options... Sigh, one day

Hewesy

Well,thanks I will definitely check this pedal out.
While I was strumming my classical guitar today, a thought (a rare occurrence) come into my head (still hurting):
if I put a magnetic pick up in the soundhole, it should pick-up only the three bottom strings, since they are obviously the only onces disturbing the magnetic field...
Anyone tried this?

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www.bugiolacchi.com
Songwriter/guitarist

Quote bugiolacchi:

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if I put a magnetic pick up in the soundhole, it should pick-up only the three bottom strings, since they are obviously the only onces disturbing the magnetic field...
Anyone tried this?

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It shouldn't work at all. On a steel string acoustic the magnetic pick-up is actually picking op the ferrous cores of the wound strings, not the windings. On your classical the cores are bunches of nylon monofilaments, the wrappings are silver or silver plated copper wire.

Andy

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When the going gets weird, the Weird turn Pro.

"It shouldn't work at all."

Well it should...a bit!A non magnetic conductor (can't say "ferrous" because some ssteels are non magnetic. No idea how or why!) moving in a static magnetic field will have a current induced in it and that will in turn produce a current, albeit a pretty feeble one, in the pup coils.

Then again I suspect guitar pups are more "variable reluctance" transducers than straight "alternators" (the string is not cutting the line of force always at the optimum angle).N very B, all this poncey language does NOT mean I really know WTF is going on!

Had a big ding-dong somewhere sometime ago about pups.

Dave.

Mee stooopid! I didn't realise that the metals used for wounding the bottom strings were either silver or copper! I am not going to throw the used ones away again...
Seriously, then what about installing, preferably in an electo-acoustic model, just for live gigs, actual iron-laden acoustic-guitar strings (light gauge, obviously) and then sticking a pickup in?
This should work, totally separating the bottom strings from the top through sacrifying some of the 'plastic' tone of the bass notes...

Anyhow, on a more down-to-Earth, less experimental way, I am now looking for an 'electric guitar' with nylon strings. The Epiphone SST has caught my attention, since I am quite familiar with Gibson's original version. The 'problem' I have with the Gibson is its totally unnecessary humongous weight, feeling like a Les Paul only not to generate any sound or sustain, really. The amplified character is not different from any super-cheapos classical guitars fitted with a piezo.
Really, there must be out there a plank of wood (i.e. solid body) with some plastic strings and a decent piezo making at least the same sound and costing peanuts? (for a monkey?.. stop it!).
Just a bit of brain tickle on a Sunday morning... and Christmas coming...

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www.bugiolacchi.com
Songwriter/guitarist

Dave, it doesn't work at all.....


conservation of energy.

Quote Off duty BBQ lighter AKA Idris:

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Dave, it doesn't work at all.....


conservation of energy.

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? Are you saying that a magnetic field will not be perturbed by a moving, non magnetic conductor?

Dave.

Sorry Dave, it's always a bit of a juggling act answering a question here. When I'm replying I tend to keep one eye on the OP and the specific question and the other eye on how anyone else coming across the thread might read it in more general terms. Often one answer will suit both, but sometimes a detailed answer can focus attention on a side issue rather than the the OP's real problem.

So yes, my answer was simplistic. But that's all that was needed to explain why the suggestion wouldn't work. And anything more accurate would be quite long-winded to put over.

Bugiolacchi, I wouldn't recommend the half and half solution I'm afraid. Even light gauge steel strings have a lot more tension than nylon strings. D'Addario are very useful because they list the string tensions on their website (and on their packs) and also have a very detailed pdf on the website too. The pdf even lists tensions for every string they produce at a range of pitches.

But using the basic figures as an example, here's a comparison between the Phosphor Bronze extra lights (10-47) and the Pro-Arte extra hard tension Nylons. We are comparing the lightest Phosphor Bronze set with the heaviest Nylon set.

The bottom E is 9.39Kg PB and 7.12Kg Nylon
The A is 11.52Kg PB and 7.21Kg Nylon
The D is 12.29Kg PB and 7.39 Nylon.

So we are looking at a massive difference in string tension, and far more than I would want to put on any classical type guitar. Even if you were to take an steel string electro acoustic and fit the nylon trebles you would need to do some major work to get it to intonate correctly and the strings could be too close together, especially over the neck, to vibrate freely. You would also have to compromise the action, either too low for the nylon trebles, or too high for the steel string basses, and that also has a knock on effect for the intonation.

The Gibson SST is actually a very interesting concept. It isn't unnecessarily heavy, that mass is critical to the way it is supposed to work. The SST was designed to be used amplified on large, loud, stages but sound as natural as possible through the PA. It has a proper, braced, front that is only attached to the body around the edges. Just like a proper classical. The solid back has channels routed to accommodate the braces without touching them. The idea is to have a free vibrating top to sound as natural as possible, but removing the box of the body from the equation so it cannot resonate and amplify in sympathy with the PA/Monitors and cause feedback.

In it's day it was successful and did it's job well. But piezo technology has moved on a lot since then and more modern pick-ups can sound far more natural. But I promise you can turn the Gibson up a lot louder than most

Andy

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When the going gets weird, the Weird turn Pro.

We just cross posted Dave, I was busy drafting my essay while you posted again in response to Idris.

But you are right, it is the magnetic properties that matter, not the electrical ones.

Andy

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When the going gets weird, the Weird turn Pro.

Dear Andy, as always, an informed and exhaustive answer! It really feels I am talking to the expert(s) here in the guitar corner... thank you!
I am still in the opinion the Gibson SST to be a bit too heavy, but maybe all that mahogany might be necessary to produce the 'sound'. And yes, it's nearly feedback free!

This brings me to the, hopefully for you, two last questions: what about the relatively new Epiphone version of it, in terms of built quality and sound? (can't try one from where I live now...). It only costs around £200 and it 'sounds' like a bargain to me (providing it is comparable in quality to the Gibson!).

Last, you mention that piezo quality has improved dramatically since its inception: what would you recommend, if any, a modern alternative in the same concept.. solid body (or nearly) and modern piezo?
And a realistic price, not Godin's territory...

Thanks a bunch again!

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www.bugiolacchi.com
Songwriter/guitarist

Thanks Bugiolacchi,

Indeed, the Gibson can go very loud before feedback, and when it finally reaches that point the feedback is relatively easy to notch out so you can go even louder.

I honestly don't know how close the Epi is to the original, I've not had my hands on one and it's been a long time since I tried the Gibsons. But it does appear to be the same concept and I would expect the Shadow pick-up to be at least as good as the original, and probably better.

But I can't offer any suggestions I'm afraid. I don't get out and about very much these days.

Andy

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When the going gets weird, the Weird turn Pro.

I play in Cajun Band and knock out a bass lines and strumming rhythms from a Steel Sting Guitar, the guitar is eq'ed very bass heavy (no octaver or anything else) and the kick drum is also given a good deal of weight, so long as the kick drum and bass strings are in time you get a convincing bass line from this. We get a lot of puzzled people asking where the bass guitar sound comes from. Don't know if this will fit the bill for you, as our bass lines are very simple, but it works for me.