See here

Quote Gone To Lunch:

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See here

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An article nearly ten years behind the times!!!

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Battenburg to the power of 20 - said by Richie Royale in a moment of genius. 4pm. Wed 16th Nov 2011. Remember where you were....

I had to take a look at the date of the article. Thought there'd been a disruption in the time/space continuum!

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Website / Music Lab Machines / Blog

Just ten?

What is remarkable about that article, is that the labels are still making the same mistakes that they were making 20 years ago. Only this time around, they are pushing away anything worthwhile (financially and artistically) with their 'include everything and in perpetuity' deals (what the author calls a 360-deal). Nobody worth spit (other than some asinine talent show winners - and that ain't a label business) is going to want or need to go for a deal like that!

The labels did not just miss the boat, they managed to miss every bloody boat in the harbour! And they are still doing it - only now, they are trying to grab more and more of less and less! One day, they will be left with everything of nothing and their business will make as much sense as having a monopoly for Hansom cabs in the City of London.

.... that's not true for all labels RB. Universal are making more money than ever - just not as a record label!! .... things have changed!

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Battenburg to the power of 20 - said by Richie Royale in a moment of genius. 4pm. Wed 16th Nov 2011. Remember where you were....

What really ticks me off about this business, is the lack of vision by musicians.

Musicians - these people seem almost to-a-man incapable of thinking in terms of a show. They are in show business, yet totally lack any ability to start with the concept of what sort of show they are going to produce. They sit around, scratching themselves, waiting for inspiration and for 'that great song' (that never comes!) instead to doing things the right way about. You start with a show and a concept for that show, THEN work out what sort of sounds you are going to make (metal, pop, prog-rock, whatever) - then and ONLY then, think of the tunes. That's why acts like Gaga, Rammstein, Beyonce, Pink, etc., are successful across the whole of planet Earth. They think of how to put on a show FIRST!

And before you think of a show and what they show is going to look like and sound like, you have to have something to say. Gaga, Rammstein et al have something to say.

I have sat down many times with musicians and they have told me that they are trying to compose a song, but are having difficulties. I then ask them, what are they trying to say? What are they trying to tell the World? Are they writing about death, love, relationships, lost dreams, lost youth, what?

"Er, well, er, um . . ." and that's about it.

"I don't think we actually have one message." they mumble vaguely.

I tell them, no yearning need to tell the World that something's going on - no message. No message means you have nothing to say, so no show. No show, no sounds, no music and no tunes.

Just noise.

As someone (?) famously said...

"They call it 'show business', NOT 'show art'"

Quote The Red Bladder:

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Gaga, Rammstein et al have something to say.

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I agree with everything you said there RB except I'm struggling with this bit. If its true their respective messages have clearly passed me by... Sorry.

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Strictly project and just for fun

I've always found that a few band members wearing stonewashed jeans on-stage covers both the 'show' part and the 'message' part. Problem solved!

I know someone who roadies for the O2 arena. He has a saying which experience has born out. 'The size of the show is inverse to the amount of talent'

Jeez not all music is showbiz. the biggest artist of last year Adele just stands and sings. You've been brainwashed by Simon Cowell if you think she should be tapdancing.

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www.myspace.com/shambolic-charm


Edited by Shambolic Charm (28/12/11 09:44 AM)

1. Adel puts on a terrific show and a very big show. Pink Floyed and Genesis put on just about the biggest shows I have ever seen and I can't remember seeing Gilmour practice busting his moves back stage!

2. You are missing the point - she has something to say. So do Rammstein and Gaga - in fact, those two shove their message right into your face and you would have to be clinically dead to miss it!

3. I shall never cease to be amazed at the way roadies know so much more about the music business than everybody else - a sort of cross between a Greek chorus and a cage full of monkeys!

Quote The Red Bladder:

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she has something to say... Gaga - in fact shove(s) the message right into your face and you would have to be clinically dead to miss it!

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Forgive me for slightly amending your quote RB. Even I am aware that she has taken a position against bullying as a result of incidents in her childhood. I am also aware that she has used her position in the industry to the devastating disadvantage of her original songwriter (she is another one who pretends to write songs) who she very publicly tucked up in a fairly spectacular manner. How she has done this is tantamount to bullying. Therefore it seems she is a bully who preaches against bullying. You can call that 'having something to say'. Personally I wouldn't. You could also say so what? Her audience doesn't give a toss if she's a hypocrite. And you would probably be right.

I agree that veteran UK rock acts always had the biggest shows they could contrive to get their message across and always had something to say. I'm probably being a bit pedantry here but if my rose tinted memory serves me correctly, what those bands had to say was rather less vacuous than what that trollop from NJ squeals on about. Sadly I find this rather dilutes your otherwise astute observation.

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Strictly project and just for fun

Quote Frisonic:

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she is another one who pretends to write songs

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And the source of that claim?

A friend of mine is assistant to her producer, RedOne, and I can tell you that she writes her own stuff and she is very musically and technically savvy. When she was on tour recently (which my chum accompanied her on ... and got me on the guest list), they took a ProTools rig round with them and she was constantly writing and recording new material.

While she was on Interscope Records, she was writing for Britney Spears, New Kids On The Block, Fergie and The Pussycat Dolls.

Or is it that because she's a woman, dies her hair odd colours, can dance, put on a good show, is a bit bonkers, etc., it's just assumed she's a musically illiterate, attention grabbing bimbo?

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Website / Music Lab Machines / Blog

Quote The Red Bladder:

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1. Adel puts on a terrific show and a very big show. Pink Floyed and Genesis put on just about the biggest shows I have ever seen and I can't remember seeing Gilmour practice busting his moves back stage!

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Depends what you mean by 'A Show' ( Orchestra and a back screen?!) Ok Pink Floyd and Genesis, but what about Deep Purple; Bob Dylan; PIL; Bob Marley; etc. etc. etc. Everyone has their style and 'show' is irrelevant to many of them. More put on 'A show' now because of the massive festivals and stadiums they are playing. The 'show' doesn't make them any more worthy and there are many that are all 'show' and no depth.

Furthermore the message the greatest artists put across is usually written on their heart. Not something pondered over as a formula for success. Adele for instance is probably so popular because she lays her heart bare. There's no one message just an expression of her sufferings through relationships. Give me that over any preachy stuff any timer

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www.myspace.com/shambolic-charm


Edited by Shambolic Charm (28/12/11 02:19 PM)

Quote hollowsun:

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And the source of that claim?

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Rob Fusari .

He also wrote Bootyliscious...

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I'm All Ears.

More on the state of the music business in this 2008 article from Alan Wilder: http://www.side-line.com/interviews_comments.php?id=29640_0_16_0_C

Quote ken long:

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Rob Fusari

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Hmmm...

He claims to have 'discovered' her. Not quite true - someone saw her performing when she was doing her burlesque shows and told Fusari about her.

And he 'collaborated' with her on some early tracks at his studio. When I had a 'proper' studio and had bands in, I too 'collaborated' with them making suggestions for motifs, riffs, arrangements, instrumentation and sounds, etc., here and there ... and I 'produced' the tracks - I can't claim to have 'written' the song(s) though or have a stake on any royalties if they made it big as a result of my endeavours (none did ... one almost did). If I had wanted that, I should have entered into a water-tight contract first.

I'm suspecting sour grapes here - they had some collaborative thing going on, it didn't work out, she moved on, made $quillions and he wants a slice.

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Website / Music Lab Machines / Blog

Quote ken long:

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Quote hollowsun:

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And the source of that claim?

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Rob Fusari .

He also wrote Bootyliscious...

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That is the best known example. There are others. I understand she has her own talents but she uses her position to take credit for other people's work. I became aware of this before I had heard her music so I never bothered to listen to any. I assumed her 'message' was bogus. I first became aware of this trend with pop acts with the Spice Girls, who I am told by people close enough to that project would not take a song unless the songwriter agreed to let them take writing credits. That's bullying. Perhaps its always been that way. They don't all do it. Certainly the Genesis and Pink Floyd's of this world never needed to. But today it seems most do.

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Strictly project and just for fun

...and you wonder why the industry is on its arse?...this thread has proved nothing, but greed and argument coexist where fun and cooperation should ....its bloody music! she's done this and he's done that and he said and she said...all of it balloons! Happy New Year! Dave

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My head hurts!

Quote Frisonic:

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Quote ken long:

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Quote hollowsun:

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And the source of that claim?

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Rob Fusari .

He also wrote Bootyliscious...

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That is the best known example. There are others. I understand she has her own talents but she uses her position to take credit for other people's work.

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In my 40-something years of dealing with talent, I have learnt to NEVER believe anything I have ever heard about them. The bad boys who have reputations for terrible deeds turn out to be real pussy-cats and the do-gooder charity supporters often turn out to be some of the most disgusting kiddy-fiddlers. That boy-from-the-hood rapper came from a middle class neighbourhood and his parents were both lawyers. That clean-cut crooner and family father has 'previous' for trying to touch-up little boys in lavatories. That friendly family mother, agony aunt and adoring wife goes out of her way to destroy people's lives, simply because she can. And that heavy metal rocker that admitted on a talk show to raping his sister, does not actually have a sister.

And none of that even includes the C&W acts - now they . . . nah, better not!

Two terrible facts about Lady Gaga, that will set you back on your heals and make you lose all faith in humanity -

1. She really does write her own songs, but the arrangements are done by others.

2. She does not have, nor has she ever had a Great Dane.

I find this last one truly shocking and a scandal worthy of calling Gagagate! I mean, how could she try to claim that they were her own dogs in 'Pokerface' when one is a famous show dog from California, even with his own website?

Now that is the real scandal!!!

(As for Mr Fusari, the other side of the story is that she and her father signed a contract with him that contravened US employment law, so Universal (?) told them they can just tear it up - but that's just a story and like I said, "Don't believe, don't believe, don't believe the hype!")

Fair enough!

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Strictly project and just for fun

Quote The Red Bladder:

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Quote Frisonic:

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Quote ken long:

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Quote hollowsun:

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And the source of that claim?

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Rob Fusari .

He also wrote Bootyliscious...

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That is the best known example. There are others. I understand she has her own talents but she uses her position to take credit for other people's work.

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In my 40-something years of dealing with talent, I have learnt to NEVER believe anything I have ever heard about them. The bad boys who have reputations for terrible deeds turn out to be real pussy-cats and the do-gooder charity supporters often turn out to be some of the most disgusting kiddy-fiddlers. That boy-from-the-hood rapper came from a middle class neighbourhood and his parents were both lawyers. That clean-cut crooner and family father has 'previous' for trying to touch-up little boys in lavatories. That friendly family mother, agony aunt and adoring wife goes out of her way to destroy people's lives, simply because she can. And that heavy metal rocker that admitted on a talk show to raping his sister, does not actually have a sister.

And none of that even includes the C&W acts - now they . . . nah, better not!

Two terrible facts about Lady Gaga, that will set you back on your heals and make you lose all faith in humanity -

1. She really does write her own songs, but the arrangements are done by others.

2. She does not have, nor has she ever had a Great Dane.

I find this last one truly shocking and a scandal worthy of calling Gagagate! I mean, how could she try to claim that they were her own dogs in 'Pokerface' when one is a famous show dog from California, even with his own website?

Now that is the real scandal!!!

(As for Mr Fusari, the other side of the story is that she and her father signed a contract with him that contravened US employment law, so Universal (?) told them they can just tear it up - but that's just a story and like I said, "Don't believe, don't believe, don't believe the hype!")

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I don't believe anything you say since your bollocks on the X-Factor thread.

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I'm All Ears.

"Rob Fusari is a record producer and songwriter, possibly best known for his work with American recording artist Lady Gaga."

Says it all.

I think Lady Gaga is one of the best pop acts around at the moment - writes her own music, has ridiculous imagery, great at publicity and giving interesting quotes...

Quote ken long:

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I don't believe anything you say since your bollocks on the X-Factor thread.

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Ooo - that hurt!

The person who was supposed to win, didn't, after a newspaper report of fixing put supporters off. The one thing people don't believe is that you can't fix the actual vote. Now, nobody believes me and I'm trying to live it down!

But you can believe me on the Great Dane - I have deep connections within Great Dane circles. I have met and shaken hands, er paws with some of the industry's leading Great Danes. Not that any of the heathens around here would believe me!

Quote Frisonic:

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I am told by people close enough to that project would not take a song unless the songwriter agreed to let them take writing credits. That's business.

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Fixed that for you!

At the risk of extreme heresy...

In much the same way as RedOne influences her Gaganess's 'sound' and arrangements, etc., ermmm, so did, ermmm, George Martin with the Beatles, very substantially!! But The Fabs wrote the songs.

There's a fine dividing line between the actual songwriting process, arrangement and production and they cross over. There are some fine (and classic) songs which, in many ways, owe their success to the arrangement done by anonymous jobbing arrangers who didn't get a penny in royalties. One could cite the Fisher vs Brooker lawsuit over Procul Harum's 'Whiter Shade Of Pale' - would that have been as memorable a record without that dominating, pseudo baroque organ part? But Fisher wrote the song.

Somewhat tangentially, just look what Delia Derbyshire did with Ron Grainer's Dr Who theme. Originally scored for a small band/orchestra. Ron wrote the music, Delia transformed it into a seminal peice of early electronica but it doesn't detract from Ron's writing.

However, I'm with you on those 'artists' who come into the studio with a line of inane lyrics and a vague melody and expect the producer, session musos, etc., to turn it into a song while they waltz out for some retail therapy. But Stefani Germanotta is not one of those - she comes in with complete songs she has written and she and her team work together on them to turn out a hit.

Unless my chum (who works with her most days) is lying to me, you're just going to have to take my word for it!

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Website / Music Lab Machines / Blog

>But Fisher wrote the song.

You mean Brooker.

I don't know much about Lady Gaga, but I do know that when she was a nobody she was in a band playing original material on the live circuit. None of the Spice Girls ever did that.

Quote Scramble:

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>But Fisher wrote the song.

You mean Brooker.

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Well spotted!

Quote Scramble:

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I don't know much about Lady Gaga, but I do know that when she was a nobody she was in a band playing original material on the live circuit.

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She was indeed. She's (allegedly) been playing piano since the age of four, turned down her place at Juilliard to take a place at the Tisch School Of Performing Arts and then embarked on a 'career', firstly in fairly ordinary rock-ish bands but then moved into doing her own burlesque shows, gigging regularly round NY and elsewhere until she was spotted. It took her quite a while to become an overnight success!

Quote Scramble:

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None of the Spice Girls ever did that.

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Quite. Other manufactured bands too - just assembled through auditions because they looked the part.

I think this highlights the mediocre insanity of the whole thing...

Boyzone's first TV appeareance

I love the cynical sarcasm of the presenter!

Take That were a little different though because Gary Barlow HAD at least been schlepping round the northern clubs for a few years .... which is tough!

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Website / Music Lab Machines / Blog

Like I say, fair enough. But I'm still a bit hazy about where the Great Dane comes into it?

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Strictly project and just for fun

Quote Frisonic:

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But I'm still a bit hazy about where the Great Dane comes into it?

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That was Red Bladder's defense in the court case as well!

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Website / Music Lab Machines / Blog

Quote The Red Bladder:

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You start with a show and a concept for that show, THEN work out what sort of sounds you are going to make (metal, pop, prog-rock, whatever) - then and ONLY then, think of the tunes. That's why acts like Gaga, Rammstein, Beyonce, Pink, etc., are successful across the whole of planet Earth. They think of how to put on a show FIRST!

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Hang on a minute, these people you quoted start off with a whole load of cash, then pay other people to design their show!

I'd like to see Lady Gaga, Beyonce, Take That, etc, try to do her stuff in the back room of the Rose and Crown on a Friday 'band' night.

It's not practical for musicians starting out to look at the example of established artists with massive budgets/production/promotion and try to emulate what they do on a smaller scale, ain't gonna work.

What they CAN do, what is within their total control, is work on the quality of their music and performance. A brilliant song played by a lone musician on an acoustic guitar in a back room of a pub can captivate an audience as much as Lady Gaga's pomp entertains her audience of thousands.

That said, I do agree with the second part of your post, that musicians should first think about what it is they are offering/trying to say.

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Quote The Red Bladder:

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I have met and shaken hands, er paws with some of the industry's leading Great Danes. Not that any of the heathens around here would believe me!

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I met Sandi Toskvig once...

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Dynamite with a laser beam...

Quote GlynB:

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I'd like to see Lady Gaga try to do her stuff in the back room of the Rose and Crown on a Friday 'band' night.

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Oh ... I dunno .... I think she might go down ok...

Paparazzi

Poker Face

Can't speak for Take That but Gary Barlow could hold his own at the Dog and Duck as well, I imagine.

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Website / Music Lab Machines / Blog

Quote hollowsun:

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Quote GlynB:

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I'd like to see Lady Gaga try to do her stuff in the back room of the Rose and Crown on a Friday 'band' night.

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Oh ... I dunno .... I think she might go down ok...

Paparazzi

Poker Face

Can't speak for Take That but Gary Barlow could hold his own at the Dog and Duck as well, I imagine.

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Would love to see all you Lady Gaga haters perform like that! She really is very talented.

Quote Frisonic:

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... who I am told by people close enough to that project would not take a song unless the songwriter agreed to let them take writing credits. That's bullying. Perhaps its always been that way. They don't all do it. Certainly the Genesis and Pink Floyd's of this world never needed to. ...

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lol I fear you underestimate the depths of Tony Banks' depravity: he would foist his material on the rest of the band and insist that they *did* all take a songwriting credit so that he couldn't be accused to foisting all his material on them. Or something

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~~~ A weasel hath not such a deal of spleen as you are tossed with! www.feline1.co.uk ~~~

.... not to mention the number of times production staff have contributed and NOT received a credit. I've done it AND with major name acts. It happens......

I feel a bit guilty about taking this thread off topic. Let's face it, the music industry has always had its share of 'that's business' type shenanigans, legal and otherwise. Starting with 'payola' and carrying on merrily to this day with 'where there's a hit there's a writ'. So I don't suppose said shenanigans can be blamed for any difficulties record companies may or may not be having with making money out of music lately.

But I do wonder how much talent has shied away, over the years, from even getting involved with the industry because savvy people instinctively know that's how they're going to be treated. Its reputation for abuse of power is worse than most other industries. True or myth, I don't see how that situation can add value to the business model.

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Strictly project and just for fun

I don't think it's any different from any other business. Take architects - do the BEST get to the top or just the most aggressive?

Seven years training. Worst paid of any professional group... Yes, you are right narcoman, architecture is even more vocational than medicine! And then when it comes to awarding the contract to design that landmark building it goes to the firm who have spent more time on the numbers and presentation, and less time on creating their design.

But the music industry, deservedly or not, does have an especially bad reputation compared to most other sectors. Take banking for example, a sector that everybody currently loves to hate, even though they know very little about it (note: I do not and never have worked in banking, but I know a lot about it). Sure, up-line managers take the credit for other people's work and ideas every day. Bad managers do that in every sector. However, even though they are all hated outside their industry, people who work in banking at least know their employers all have large human resources departments. They lay down and enforce certain standards beneath which abuses will not be tolerated. Even very senior executives get let go if they transgress. Where do such safeguards extend to what are effectively freelance content creators working for record labels? Perhaps they do exist but I have always thought the reality is that one is highly exposed to abuse and I suspect that has always deterred a lot of talent. Notwithstanding that there will always be a vast glut of alternative candidates and being appropriately aggressive is a part of the suite of talents needed to succeed in any field.

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Strictly project and just for fun

I think you're a little idealistic. 'Corruption' (for want of a better word ... 'playing the game' might be a better way to put it) is pretty much endemic everywhere in all walks of life. Even when I was in the lower eschelons of the uncivil service a century ago, I saw it go on all the time - the girl with the pretty smile (and maybe mobile lips!) and brown nosing suck ups getting promoted over the real workers (yes - there were a few), my old drama teacher giving up his industrial plant hire company because local councillors would always ask "What's in it for me?" when he tendered for a job, the 'management advisors' who get the £2millions NHS gig because they walk the walk, talk the talk ... and take the NHS managers out for nice lunches ... and so on.

Seen it in the music biz too - the good looking posey boy with two chords under his belt who gets the gig over the considerably better but slightly paunchy gitwrist... the composer who gets the Nike ad gig because his girlfriend's on the production team ... and they met at a trendy bar where those types hang out ... and so on.

I'm not saying it's right and I also believe that it should all be based on merit, not bullshit or a pretty face, whatever, but there ya go - it's the way it is unfortunately.

As for 'deterring' people getting into the biz we call 'music', not so sure of that - entrants are arguably at an all time high with deluded individuals wanting to attend useless music tech courses to get qualifications that have no relevance in an industry where there are no jobs (to speak of ... but arguably plenty of self-made opportunities). And that's before we factor in the X-Factor and the like - people want to be pop stars (or, more specifically perhaps, 'celebrities') and will (as ever) sign (and do) anything to achieve that. And (sadly) serious talent will often be overlooked in favour of bright and shiny and easily marketable. Nothing new and nothing changes! And it will probably ever be so.

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Website / Music Lab Machines / Blog