Hello everyone

Not sure if this is the right place, but if not then please tell me where to go :-)

I'm trying to figure out a specific tone from one of my favourite guitarists (Tom Livemore) and can't get anywhere near it, so I thought I may turn to the experts at large to help.

See the link below for a good example - its three notes high up the neck towards the end of the track and the lead guitar takes on a wrought, soaring, ripping, peeling kind of tone that appears as though the amp itself is straining to transmit the notes. On other recordings I have, it is more pronounced and I have heard it pushed further, and also dialled back - but its always the same kind of sound. http://maccabees.bandcamp.com/track/what-would-it-take

Now, I'm in a strange position in that I know almost everything that was used on this record as for a time I occupied the space that he stood in once he moved on :-) However, I've never met him or spoken to him so I only know second hand info from the rest of the band.

He plays a Charvel Surfcaster (Hollow body, hot lipstick pickups) going into a Marshall Half Stack (not sure of model). I have one picture of the pedalboard he uses which was from 1996 (about 5 years before this track) which looks like a tone bender (grey box, two large black knobs), a boss pedal (which I am told is a GE7 by the band), something else I cant make out, into an old Memory Man with the dials on the side, into another pedal which I cant make out but looks like it is a green colour with a large while/silver strip across the middle.

I was told that he owned a Big Muff which did all this kind of stuff, and luckily I own one, but it doesn't match what I already know.

Even though I know all of this, I'm still not sure how the managed to get this tone. It's plastered all over this album and over some previous work so it's kind of signature. My own experimentation with the fuzz pedal causes everything to just flatten out, lose it's midrange and sustain like a violin - which is nice, but not what I want to do.

I suppose I'm really trying to cop the sound, so I'm wondering how my set up can replicate this. I play an Epiphone Sheraton II into an Orange Dark Terror and a Bogner 2x12. My pedalboard is guitar into a Big Muff, Boss GE7, Boss Super Chorus, then a Marshall Echohead Delay. The shape control is at 12:00-15:00, and the gain is at roughly 10:00-11:00. I also use a Telecaster and a Les Paul copy.

I'm sorry for the long winded message, but I appear to be bordering on obsession and I hope someone can help!

Thanks in advance
Tom

Time stamp might help - I listened to the song and am not 100% sure I know which bit you're refering to and others may struggle in a similar way.

Did hear some pinched harmonics going which were sustained. Is this it?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5I5O8P-r5Rk

Yes I neglected to put a time stamp in lol. My album copy is what Im using as reference, and the example starts at 2:36 until the end of the track!

If you click on the album and play through some of the other tracks, theres a somewhat muted instance at 2:36 in Hold On, and then in The Most Unwanted Man In The World from 3:44 it is different, but ultimately has a similar 'about to burst' feel.

I know about pinched harmonics - its not that. This guitarist doesn't use them as part of his sound. This is definitely a pedal/amp/guitar thing that I appear to be missing.

EDIT : The notes in the first example sound like they're pinched, but I don't believe this is intentional. Im more after the way this part sounds - almost ripping and bursting at the seams.

Edited by tomdot (05/01/12 06:48 PM)

Is there some kind of octave or pitch shift thing going on there? Take a look at this video (from about 0:52) - the effect has a bit of that pinch harmonic-ness about it.

I see the comparison, but it doesn't match what I know about this player. I'm not too sure that pitch shifting alone is making this sound.

I do think that pure volume plays a part, but with my experiments I haven't been able to get close.

Sorry Tom!

Saying " a something Marshall half stack " just will not do! I have been reliably informed that M's made some super sounding, legendary amps, quite a few dogs and things that fell into the cracks!

There is a guy, calls himself ICBM, over at www.musicradar.com who seems to have an ear for these things plus there are many other knowledgeable guitarists there who might help you.

Dave.

Any chance you could upload the pic of his pedals? I wonder if what you think is a fuzz/Tone Bender is actually an octave shift+fuzz like an Octavia type effect.

Lots of feedback too, no doubt the hollowbody+Marshall combination.

Hewesy

I was thinking a lot of it sounded like it was in the guitar and the amp (never mind the fingers).

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Strictly project and just for fun

Quote ef37a:

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Sorry Tom!

Saying " a something Marshall half stack " just will not do! I have been reliably informed that M's made some super sounding, legendary amps, quite a few dogs and things that fell into the cracks!

There is a guy, calls himself ICBM, over at www.musicradar.com who seems to have an ear for these things plus there are many other knowledgeable guitarists there who might help you.

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*shrugs* I don't know the amp he played other than a Marshall half stack. I do know, yes, that there are dogs and gems in the range. Please don't be condescending. I can't find any pictures of the amp but it would have been a pre 1996 Marshall. I don't have any other details, but everyone knows what a Marshall sounds like give or take a few bad 'uns.

As for pedals, the only picture I have is on the back of a CD case which is half covered in darkness, so Im not sure that you would be able to make it out.

I'll try my very best to find something decent (video, pics or anything) and report back.

I do like the idea of the Octave Fuzz thread though. Im not convinced about my ToneBender description other than what I thought it looked like.

Oh and this has been posted at Music Radar too - I am thinking ahead

Tom

Sorry Tom.
That you thought I was being condescending, not my intention I assure you.

Good luck with your quest.

Dave.

These are pics from 2003-4 - note its a combo JCM 2000 2x12 and even though Im not a Marshall fan at all, I really liked this amp when I tried one all those years ago :-)

Im not convinced this is what was used however as I was told it was a head and separate cab. Though the record I'm looking at is only 1-2 years before this so he could have downsized into the new millennium and the memory of the stack lived on lol.

http://www.beatlesource.com/carina/live/03/03.10.01/10.jpg
http://www.beatlesource.com/carina/live/04/04.01.25/12.jpg
http://www.beatlesource.com/carina/live/04/04.06.06/03.jpg
http://www.beatlesource.com/carina/live/04/04.08.28/04.jpg
http://www.beatlesource.com/carina/live/05/05.12.15/k02.jpg

This shows the singer going through the Marshall and him using a Fender but I would say this is rare as I know he would have used a Marshall
http://www.beatlesource.com/carina/live/04/04.08.28/35.jpg

Oh wow and I just found this too! Im pleased at this one!

http://www.beatlesource.com/carina/live/04/04.08.28/03.jpg

Though the pedalboard I had a picture of definitely had a Memory Man on it before that grey Boss-a-like at the end, the thing between the blue multi fx and the Jekyll and Hyde may have been the "Tone Bender" I thought. I don't know what the three knob pedal and the big yellow button are!

Edited by tomdot (06/01/12 07:29 PM)

2 things....

1. I've always found Dave very helpful on this forum. And what he doesn't know about amps isn't worth knowing! Whilst you may think everyone knows 'the Marshall sound' there is a whole bunch of difference between a JCM900 and a Plexi - that's all he's getting at in the quest to try and help you here And that's before you've even considered what cabinet you stick it through as a Marshall through a 4x12 with Greenbacks is a very different beast to the same amp through a 4x12 with a different speaker on the go.... it is a scary fact that the speaker / cab make a huuuugge difference to tone.

All that said, we get to point.....

....2. The grey pedal may be as simple as one of these http://www.bossus.com/gear/productdetails.php?ProductId=151 and if it is, that's not the culprit for your tone... But it looks like it and, if you agree, at least you can exclude that!

3. Unfortunately, I don't know what the yellow one is either.....

http://www.hotroxuk.com/effects-pedals-ehx-pigtronix-fulltone-xotic-zvex-3 38-0.html?gclid=COGyx-aTvK0CFVQLfAoduBR4AA

These folks do an awful lot of the 'stranger' pedals out there and, as you clearly want one, I'm sure they would be interested in helping you to identify it if your web / forum searches draw a blank

I've never had a pedal from them, but I've bought valves there and they've always been enthusiastic and helpful..... the owner is a keen guitarist which is always a good start

Very kind of you to say Garry but there is a very great deal about guitar amps I do not know! Although being in electronics for 50years and having built the odd valve guitar amp(ex hospital radio KT66s) I only got "serious" when I got the dream job three years ago!

No, my point (badly put!) was just that "Marshall" does not of itself define an amp sound.

BTW. I am 2 weeks into Merlin Blencowes' Designing Tube Preamps for Guitar and Bass and if SoS do not have it on their review list, please he or she that sorts these things get it on there!

Dave.

Look, to put it to bed (as Im really not here for an argument or to fall out), my point was more one of I don't know what I don't know. I understand differences can be crucial, but if I don't have that info I would rather give what I do know rather than withhold it. The reasons for me coming here are because I understand everybody here has probably more in depth knowledge than me! Either way, either way...

I agree that the first pedal is a noise suppressor...however, what can be said for the yellow thing simply being a line selector? Though, what kind of line selector has just a noise suppressor in it, and if it isn't, what kinds of pedals would have an interlinked noise box (note the patch leads)? The pedal with the Star on the back is a Russian Big Muff Pi!

Im not someone who believes in 'magic boxes' so Im not entirely interested in just getting the same pedals unless they are completely the cause of something happening that nothing else can emulate - anyway, they're not going to do the same thing with a Sheraton II and a Dark Terror. Though, I do like the sound of the Jekyll and Hyde so I may go and have a play :-)

I suppose now it's curiosity of what those pedals are, and also emulating how to do what I want to do. That was really the crux of starting the thread.

Tom

Edited by tomdot (06/01/12 09:55 PM)

Scratch the above about the line selector. I had looked the wiring incorrectly. The guitar is run into that yellow box, then into the noise suppressor. I've never used one, but I thought that would usually be first in the chain, or does it just go wherever the noise is?

The signal chain seems simple enough, more to the point then is how to replicate it using my own set up?

Would it not just be easier to track down the guy himself and ask him?

I already have - and he has so far not responded! It would have saved a lot of hassle for him just to give me all his secrets I think.

I wasn't sure if you meant that long sustained wailing guitar tone, as that is what seemed to be a bit more odd in comparison to traditional guitar sounds that I've heard in this genre. It sound to me that it might be an e-bow or some kind of slide or Zippo lighter employed on the fretting hand or combination of both. Distortion/fuzz and delay to sustain it as well. That's kinda what I hear.

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www.descentintomadness.com

Yes it's the wailing tone which is really different - it's not a standard thing to hear (not for me anyway). I think its a slide too - he uses that a lot so I wouldn't be surprised. I have a feeling that the sound is just pure volume mixed with some treated delay from the Alesis. Though, I also think the Jekyll and Hyde pedal has a part to play in that too - probably with both sides active.

I did something similar on this song:
http://soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=10759733

distortion and delay with a glass bottle slide, the reason I think his is ebow is the fact that there doesn't seem to be much attack to the string.

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www.descentintomadness.com

I think for other parts in the song yes it definitely is a glass bottle slide similar to your song, but if you listen to the actual lead part closely, it's all on the beat and there's no gliss on those notes - there is slight attack too so I don't think this specific bit was the slide. I must admit I've never used an E-Bow, though I thought they produced no attack either?

I think whatever that yellow box is is the key to this - the other pedals are standard dirt boxes along with the Alesis for delay and chorus etc. (why remove the Memory Man from the board though?? ) Not only that, but why put a noise suppressor after it if it wasn't anything other than some kind of a pre-amp type thing? You would hope it's findable and not custom made - I've always known him to buy 'off the rack' anyway so it looks good.

Ultimately this is a bright, hollow guitar into bright-ish amp via a delay and some kind of 'quiet-b-gone' box that produces the end of the World when pressed. Couple that with an e-bow/slide and you're away I think.

I don't think it's a glide technique... for me it sounds more like the solo in "In a Big Country" :

Big Country on Youtube

The sound I mean is an overdriven guitar with lots of echo like at minute 1:00 of the youtube video.

And then again, I could be wrong...

Wimek

Yes I see where you're coming from with that - again it's a cranked up amp sound.

After a couple days playing around I have something similar and I reckon it's mainly the bright amp with the Big Muff giving it the 'blown up' tone. Though, I've discovered that the Russian Big Muffs sound a lot different than my NYC Big Muff Pi. The Russian one is more open - it's brighter and less naturally saturated it seems. My NYC is more wooly with more of a legato-y kind of sound.

I've found that putting an EQ after the fuzz means I can open the sound out to the point where I may use it live because I do like the sound I'm getting. It would mean though getting a line selector but I don't really want to spend the £80 on a Boss just to do a quick A-B. Does anyone have any suggestions as to something more suitable? The internet only seems to recognise Boss.

Tom

I think Lehle had a line selector as well but theirs is more expensive.

Can't you just have this in the chain and turn it on when needed?

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www.descentintomadness.com

Well I nearly bought one actually, but decided to go on a splurge and bought a bunch of pedals instead. I tried the Jekyll and Hyde as I had never considered it before and really liked it so bought that, and also got a Line 6 DL4.

I also decided to take a punt on the Joyo Vintage Overdrive and their Ultimate Octave. I hear the OD is quite good, but the Fuzz is not so good. Either way it hasn't cost me a lot to find out, and it means that I essentially have a new pedal board. Me thinks there will be a lot of play over the weekend!

I'm thinking maybe using the J&H as my main tone, with the Hyde side/Joyo OD as a appropriate as a lead tone. The fuzzes will hopefully take advantage of all the mid boosty goodness if I put them at the front of the chain. I've found that the last pedal in the chain imposes it's sound on the rest, so maybe having the fuzzes up front but using them as a different lead tone will be the right way. Either/or, I will pretty much have any sound I like on the board now.

I must admit, for years I have been one for the natural sound of the amp rather than pedals, but that appears to be changing now so Im a bit inexperienced in knowing whats what - lots of trial and error.