Quote hollowsun:

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I think you're a little idealistic. 'Corruption' (for want of a better word ... 'playing the game' might be a better way to put it) is pretty much endemic everywhere in all walks of life.

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Corruption is your word, as is your somewhat twisted definition of it. My comments have been about abuse of power. My premiss has been that record labels have damaged their franchise by failing to address the reputational risks attached to high levels of perception of their tendency towards said abuse. I suspect this has been a contributory factor in the upheavals the labels have been experiencing. Particularly regarding the quality of the product they are able to offer, which I think has been trending towards hitherto unprecedented levels of blandness, which I refuse to believe can be sold in similar quantities to excellence. In that perhaps I may be accused of naivety. I am certainly not an idealist.

Corruption is quite different. I would define that in simple terms as the loading of dice in ones favour by use of illegal means. Which is not at all what I have suggested the record labels have been doing recently. I did mention payola, which was blatant corruption, but I assume that practice has long been stamped out.

Incidentally hollowsun, last time looked the world hadn't ended and recent economic setbacks were as much the consequence of consumers, particularly those that participated in the property bubble, as any banker. I am no more an apologist for the financial services industry than you are for the record labels but I am generally suspicious of populists.

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Strictly project and just for fun

Quote Frisonic:

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I did mention payola, which was blatant corruption, but I assume that practice has long been stamped out.

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I think payola was better than what we have now.

Happy New Year all.

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I'm All Ears.

Look at the interlocking web of promotion, staging, & airplay.

Ticketmaster once got into a bit of flap because on top of the ticket price, they would add fees for making nearby parking accessible (you'd have to pay even though you didn't drive in... or sometimes even if there actually WAS no associated parking available) & phone/Internet transaction fees (payable even if you bought at the door, for cash). If they were paying out to a band or venue on the basis of ticket face value, that $25 might cost you $40, & the fees were largely just profit-padding.

This has somehow managed to get messier in recent years. If you're in a city dominated by Clear Channel Communications, you may know what I mean. CC has various subsidiaries, & you have to buy the whole package or risk being frozen out. If you don't play at a CC-owned venue, you might not be allowed to advertise on CC-owned billboards (Clear Channel Outdoor) or CC-owned radio stations, & their promotional arm (Live Nation) might refuse to book you altogether. (Live Nation also having cut restrictive deals with artists like Madonna, Jay Z, & U2.) Live Nation is also a recording label (Live Nation Artists).

In 2010 Live Nation merged with Ticketmaster.

Strangely, this was about the same time Live Nation filed for bankruptcy due to "crippling debt" -- it's all musical chairs, & their perennial expansion of control tripped them up when the figurative music suddenly stopped.

Is it illegal? No. (Probably.) But if at any point someone in CC/LN cartel didn't want to launch a new act, this drastically limited its upward growth, a "glass ceiling" if you will.

So it's open to conjecture, but how would a manager break his acts into this monolith? (That's a rhetorical question, btw.)

All in all, this new version of the old model couldn't be better designed to kill grass-roots music. Mega-sellers, or nothing. I think they're headed toward the latter.

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resident troublemaker, http://forum.frugalguitarist.com/

Welcome to the new Feudalism !

Quote Gone To Lunch:

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Welcome to the new Feudalism !

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But it isn't though. Truthfully musicians have never had so much freedom to do as they like, record what they want and release it when they see fit. Flip side is there is very little prospect of all this new found freedom generating any revenue. Before this thread got distracted (by me) with a side discussion on songwriters getting theirs, or not, we established that the record labels were still profitable. But generating most of their revenue from revenue streams other than releasing records per say.

Now we're getting into the live music industry, which isn't really record labels. So far as I can see the antics that go on in this area make the record labels look like angels. If I remember correctly there were threads in these forums after the festival season last year where people said some festival organisers were expecting smaller acts to pay them for stage time! It kind of reminded me of the Easter story, particularly the bit where they wanted Jesus to carry his own cross...

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Strictly project and just for fun

Quote Frisonic:

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But I do wonder how much talent has shied away, over the years, from even getting involved with the industry because savvy people instinctively know that's how they're going to be treated. Its reputation for abuse of power is worse than most other industries. True or myth, I don't see how that situation can add value to the business model.

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In 1993 at age 16 I left home to attend the BRIT school. I took the (now non existent) BTec in Business and Finance relating to the music industry with performing arts, theatre studies and law as A/AS levels. I was taught exactly how the industry ripped off artists which was a bit of a problem for me as I was a singer/songwriter. Because I did not feel that I could rip off other artists I did not go into the industry and because I had no wish to be ripped off I avoided signing with a label and spent the next few years in the pub trade and singing in duos/ small bands for fun.

Now the tech has moved on enough to do everything from home I'll shortly be releasing my first album via myspace and iTunes having recorded, mixed and mastered it using pro tools live from my living room. I'll then be promoting it through social media and gigs. If, later on a label offers me a deal unless it gives amazing advantages in terms of distribution, promotion and finance- forget it. Many of the musicians who attended BRIT in my year work in the industry but did not sign to majors. I have noticed a dramatic rise in the number of BRIT kids entering the charts and signing to majors since the business track was abolished. Coincidence?

I think that the increase in the number music production courses available at colleges and universities along with the availability of information and collaborative opportunities both on and over the internet will create a rise in the number of independent record labels. My own startup, Mother of the Gods records, is both a label and a music publishing company. I intend to test the market with my own releases before opening the brand to other artists who wish to retain fiscal and artistic control of their own projects. You'll see over the coming year whether I am sucessful or not! Wish me luck...

Quote Frisonic:

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Quote Gone To Lunch:

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Welcome to the new Feudalism !

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But it isn't though. Truthfully musicians have never had so much freedom to do as they like, record what they want and release it when they see fit. Flip side is there is very little prospect of all this new found freedom generating any revenue.


If I remember correctly there were threads in these forums after the festival season last year where people said some festival organisers were expecting smaller acts to pay them for stage time!

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There is scope for revenue, but musicians and artists need to empower themselves. (Most of you on this forum probably know that already!) The most lucrative are obviously those relating to television or film and therefore you need to be proactive. If your music fits with a particular image or brand then you need to go direct and sell your product to the person/s responsible for making those decisions. You can weep to the gods that it's all tied up by 'people knows people' but you are missing the point. As the Interview with Alex Da Kid (Sound on Sound December 2011)clearly illustrates, you have to network. Established record labels already have these networks in place but they are not all a closed shop. Every connection that you make can create 10 more opportunities!

With regards pay to play for venue and festival spots, it's nothing new. If small bands are being charged, then go to a different festival organiser. Pick local or specialist festivals, Even if you play for free it is better than paying to play as long as you can sell or promote your music! The same applies to venues. Think outside the box. Ask a church with amazing accoustics or use a college, rugby club or school hall. Think local first. Get used to doing things yourself or gigshare with other artists. At the end of the day you can still do things in the old school manner and make a profit (old school meaning that the live performance promotes albums sales not the way that the industry does it where the album is the promo tool for the tour.) as long as you realise that unless you are extremely lucky and/or a musical genius profits will be modest.

With regards to radio airplay and advertising/promotional opportunities, again it is a question of being selective when banging your own drum. Set your budget, write your own press releases, submit your music everywhere for review, submit directly to DJs, Youtube an eyecatching video and link it to other promotional material. There are so many options. Do your homework. See what other artists have done, work out what might work and go for it!

Today's news from the BBC: sales of recorded music in the UK in 2011 down 5%.

Re live music: last night I checked out the Cirque du Soleil show at the Albert Hall this month. The box office says standing room only. But I can transfer to Viagogo and lo and behold there a premium priced seats available all over the shop. Hmmm.

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Dynamite with a laser beam...

Quote Frisonic:

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Particularly regarding the quality of the product they are able to offer, which I think has been trending towards hitherto unprecedented levels of blandness

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Hmmm....you seem to think labels are the only gatekeepers....what about radio people who have a far tighter hold on what gets through to jo(e) public ?

Quote Gone To Lunch:

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Quote Frisonic:

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Particularly regarding the quality of the product they are able to offer, which I think has been trending towards hitherto unprecedented levels of blandness

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Hmmm....you seem to think labels are the only gatekeepers....what about radio people who have a far tighter hold on what gets through to jo(e) public ?

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And of course television.

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Strictly project and just for fun

Quote Steve Hill:

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Today's news from the BBC: sales of recorded music in the UK in 2011 down 5%.

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Same report said the top twenty selling singles in the UK in 2011 sold over 500,000 units each. I'm not blaming the record labels necessarily but 30 years ago wouldn't that have been more like weekly rather than the gross annual sales of a big single? I understand that piracy is the biggest culprit but I still wonder what that figure would look like if it included pirated units and how those numbers would compare to record sales before there were so many other entertainment choices on offer?

Here is the article BTW.

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Strictly project and just for fun

Just as a matter of interest...

Does anybody have any idea how much say.. Adele would recieve per every '21' album sold?

Quote Steve Hill:

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Re live music: last night I checked out the Cirque du Soleil show at the Albert Hall this month. The box office says standing room only. But I can transfer to Viagogo and lo and behold there a premium priced seats available all over the shop. Hmmm.

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Yeah, but looking over the site which I've never seen it before so excuse me if I've got the wrong end of the stick here, but isn't Viagogo a tout site?

Google discription has it calling itself a "ticket exchange" rather than an authrized agent. Cirque Du Soleil always sells out, so that doesn't suprise me in the least.

Quote sthum:

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Just as a matter of interest...

Does anybody have any idea how much say.. Adele would recieve per every '21' album sold?

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Not sure if Adele is the best example. I'm willing to bet her deal with XL (with whom see refuses to part company) rather than one of the majors would indicate she's probably doing better on what's technically an indie label than artists signed to EMI or Warner who can't seem to balance their books.

Quote sthum:

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Just as a matter of interest...

Does anybody have any idea how much say.. Adele would recieve per every '21' album sold?

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About 60p for the master and 34p for the publishing. Might be a bit more or less. Might also be some sharing involved.
It'd be no different on a major. Pricing is pretty universal these days. Despite being a 10million seller this won't be the biggest area of earning. Lot of syncs!! Is she a major writer?

I seem to recall reading somewhere that her last tax bill was in the region of £1 million so she's doing alright by any measure.

Indeed, but she has a great accountant!!!

Quote Steve Hill:

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Today's news from the BBC: sales of recorded music in the UK in 2011 down 5%.

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Conversely this this analasys by Bobby Owsinski shows album sales in the USA up last year for the first time since 2005, with the rock genre leading the way and sales of physical CDs, and to a lesser extent vinyl albums also both up. Hip Hop and Rap appear to have has a less good year. And NYC is listening to more country music than Nashville!

Mr Owsinski does talk it up where he can but the numbers is the numbers. Reports of the death of the record labels would indeed appear to be somewhat exaggerated.

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Strictly project and just for fun